Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

You have brought out absolutely truth. When it comes to Shiva, the source becomes Tamasic or later day or something.

 

 

but you conveniently neglect Veda Samhitas which I quoted showing not only Supremacy of Lord Visnu but also showing subservince of Lord Rudra to Lord Visnnu, Goddess Lakshmi and even Lord Vayu.

 

So puranas which contradict these verses are Rajasic or Tamasic. Even Padma purana says this explicitly.

 

 

What about Svetavatara Upanishad is that also fake? Raghuramanji?

 

 

I need to learn this upanishad from a sanskrit source. Anyway, Visvakarma Sukta says that all names belong to Lord Visnu. I will return when I have information.

 

 

Raghuramanji has conveniently avoiding commenting on: Rig Veda's “ekam satviprah bahudha vadanti” (The truth is One, sages call it by various names, 1.164.46).

 

 

Refer the following website. It does not imply advaitham, but rather confirms that all names belong to Brahman and not that everything is Brahman as advaitists think.

http://www.srivaishnava.org/scripts/veda/rv/rvtop.htm

 

 

He also think the whole Namakam-Chamakam is fake. Is it so?

 

 

I never said that. What I stated is that the verse in the first anuvaka of namakam claiming Lord Shiva as supreme is a fabrication of shivites and that it is not found in Yajur Veda Samhita.

 

 

What about, Vayu, Indra, and Agni not being able to do their respective jobs on a piece of straw that Shiva asked them to burn? What about the fact that Devi herself chose Shiva as her beloved? To make him a servant?

 

 

Possibly you are refering to Tamasic puranas. There is a similar story in Katha Upanishad(I think) where Brahman(not Lord Shiva) appears as a sprite and asks all Devatas to move or burn the grass. There is no mention of Lord Shiva, but Goddess Uma appears and tells them that, that aprite is Supreme Brahman HIMSELF. Goddess Uma again never mentions it as her husband or Lord Rudra.

 

Servant part, I do not see any relevance here.

 

 

If Vayu helped Shiva to digest poison then it is also in Shiva's power that he can any power to rid the world of its ills. Consuming the poison is the greatest act. Bhagavatam is also not true? The world goes on through the power of such sacrifices.

 

 

Bhagavatam is half right as it gives only half the information. Lord Vayu also drank a major portion of Visha for your information.

 

 

Please don't belittle one God to elevate another. You do it out og ego and not out of true Self Realisation or real devotion to Vishnu.

 

 

Stating facts from Shruti is not belittling any Devata. Infact MahaDeva will be very happy with this.

 

 

Shiva worships Devi and Vishnu. Vishnu also worships Shiva. They complement each other and not oppose each other. They are best of friends. For ensuring sagety of Uma-Maheswar Vishnu is known to have sacrificed on numerous occassion. Shiva has done the same.

 

 

Equating Lord Vishnu with other human beings is AVIDYA.

 

Equating Lord Vishnu with other Devatas is AVIDYA.

[Guest guest]

Shri Raghuram ji

Shiva means auspicious.

 

If Vishnu is not Shiva, then he becomes in-auspicious?

 

The Lord is eternal auspiciousness.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Shri Raghuram ji

Shiva means auspicious.

 

If Vishnu is not Shiva, then he becomes in-auspicious?

 

The Lord is eternal auspiciousness.

 

 

This is not an argument on etymology. This argument is on whether Lord Shiva is same as Lord Visnu. The answer is no.

[Guest guest]

-------------Rig Veda succintly claims “ekam satviprah bahudha vadanti” (The truth is One, sages call it by various names, 1.164.46). --------------- ( Copy paste)

 

We start with an assumption that, this is Sattvic.

 

Then anything that hails Vishnu becomes tamasic right?

 

Raghu sir, you can not call something of your choice as saatvic and all others tamasic. Do you see the point?

 

You have to question your assumptions ( which are a source of limitations) and only then you will know the truth.

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

-------------Rig Veda succintly claims “ekam satviprah bahudha vadanti” (The truth is One, sages call it by various names, 1.164.46). --------------- ( Copy paste)

 

We start with an assumption that, this is Sattvic.

 

Then anything that hails Vishnu becomes tamasic right?

 

 

Illogical. Combine with Visvakarma Sukta. The Vedas must be taken as whole and the verse is in the context where the BrAhmanAs take Brahman to be present in VAk(speech). With Visvakarma sukta where it says that "To Brahman belongs all these namesof Devatas" and mention of the whole creation resting on the NAVEL of this Brahman in the same sukta, it is clear all namesbelong to Lord VISNU primarily.

 

 

Raghu sir, you can not call something of your choice as saatvic and all others tamasic. Do you see the point?

 

You have to question your assumptions ( which are a source of limitations) and only then you will know the truth.

 

 

 

First read my previous posts and then comment. All this is based on Veda Samhitas and not my assumption. This is what I call denial.

[Guest guest]

Jai Shree Ganesh

Jai Ma Sarasvati

 

Supreme Brahman is one without a second he/she is known in many different forms.

To some he is the super soul within the heart to some he is nirvikar nirrupam nirguna and yet some see him as Bhagvan.

 

He is not knowable by perception, turned inward or outward, nor by both combined.

He is neither that which is known, nor that which is not known, nor is he the sum of all that might be known.

He can not be seen, grasped, bargained with.

He is undefineable, unthinkable, indescribable.

The only proof of his existence is union with him.

He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

This is the fourth condition of the self- the most worthy of all. (Mandukya Upanishad)

 

There are different perception of supreme Brahman given to us by Rishis of the past, who show and realized the Brahman through their tapasya, we have to realize these ourselves than we will not be, arguing which at times degenerates in to absuserdity. Like

Shiva is even lower than Vayu or Vishnu is just a minor Solar God.

Vedas are very difficult to understand atleast it is for me.

The entire Vedic literature is set in fine musical patterns of varying notes chandas. The accent on each word and syllable is important to discern the correct meaning of the mantra with the root derivatives each in its context. Rishis spent all their lifetime studying in search of truth leaving no stones unturned but we become expert overnight doing a goggle search. We do not care who we insult taking up our position armed with few well learnt mantras and suktas ready to defeat anyone who dared to have opposite view.

Veda Vyasa with the help of Shree Ganesh gave us Vedas Upanishad the Puranas and Mahabharata; he is the supreme authority on scripture so say most of us, yet we do not stop questioning his authority.

If I quote some thing in from puranas someone might say but this does not fit in with shruti, so I must reject it.

I ask just who am I to question Veda Vyasa? If he wrote some thing in puranas did he not know Vedas as we do? Why would he write anything against shruti? 18 puranas he gave us are in glorification of three main personalities, who are in control of these three gunas satvik rajsik and tamsik.

Where does he say, in anywhere, to reject anyone in preference to the other? Each one of these three personalities is glorified as supreme in their respective puranas. What is more in the ones that I have read so far, they all declare some where or other that they are one and the same. I quote just a few from Srimad Bhagavata.

 

Sri Bhagvat 4.1-28Atri Muni desiring a son like him called upon the Bhagvan thinking of him only. But although he is far beyond the mental speculation of man, all three of you have come here. Kindly let me know how you have come, I am greatly bewildered about this.

4.1/30 –31

AS you willed, precisely so it must happen; it could not otherwise. For it was your will, O Bahmana- you, who are so true of resolve. We three (taken together) represent the truth on which you cotemplated. Now there will be born to you, may you be blessed, three sons embodying our rays, who will themselves be celebrated throughout the world; O dear sage, and shall spread your fame too.

 

4.6/42-46 Brahma said to Shiva: I know you to be the Ruler of the universe; for you are the same as the undifferentiated Brahma, etc

 

4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities. Just as a man never conceives his own head, hands and other limbs as belonging to anyone else, even so he who is devoted to me does not regard his fellow creatures as distant from himself.

He who sees no difference between Us three (Brahma, Rudra and Myself)-who are identical in essence and the very selves of all living beings-attains peace, O Daksa.

 

8.7/21-35 Prajapati praying to Lord Shiva as supreme Brahman

 

Bhagvan Shree Krishna confirms this in Bhagvat Gita

Ch.10 tx17 Arjun asks

O Krishna, O supreme mystic, how shall I constantly think of you, and how shall I know you? In what various forms are you to be remembered, O Bhagvan?

Tx19

Bhagvan said: yes, I will tell you of my splendorous manifestations, but only of those, which are prominent, O Arjun, for my opulence is limitless.

TX 20-23

I am the Supersoul, O Arjun, seated in the hearts of all living entities. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all being.

Of theAdityas I am Vishnu, of light I am the radiant sun, of the Maruts I am Marici (Lord Rudra is father of Maruts), and among the stars I am the moon.

Of the Vedas I am the Sama Veda; of the Devas I am Indra, of the senses I am, the mind; and in living being I am the living force.

Of the Rudras I am Shankar, of the yaksas raksasas I am the lord of wealth, of the vasus I am fire, and of mountains I am meru

 

Bg 9.15

Others, who engage in sacrifice by the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, as diverse in many, and in the universal form.

 

Better for me to accept what Krishna says in relation to Arjuns Question or reject what he said on grounds of some one else interpretation.

OR

Veda Vyasa who is literary incarnation of the Lord, who has given these Puranas, I either accept it without reservation or reject it based on shruti contradictions as some of you might point out to me, but than the question arises does Vyasdev not know Shruti?

 

 

I have a great respect for Hindu mind set; it has over the period of time learnt to respect others faith with lots of tolerance. Dharma is not something to force on others at the end of the day it is ones own choice.

We learn from each other on our spiritual quest, we call that same Master by different names.

O Lord if I follow the rules laid in the Shastra, to the best of my ability, why should it matter if I call you by any names?

Hey Jagat Janani Hey JagadAmbe, Maa tu Bhavani sarnma leje

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

[Guest guest]

"With Visvakarma sukta where it says that "To Brahman belongs all these namesof Devatas" and mention of the whole creation resting on the NAVEL of this Brahman in the same sukta, it is clear all namesbelong to Lord VISNU primarily"

 

Shiva's names may also belong to Bhagavan Vishnu, but I doubt girish in svetashvatara upanishad refers solely to Vishnu because Vishnu is lying on Ananta Deva while Shiva is in Kailash.

[atanu 0]

Lord has made you do a good job.

 

In one place, you have pointed out my example that Vishnu is one of the Adityas. It is true.

 

It was not to demean. It was to contrast and highlight, the position of some friends who maintain that "Vedas Prove Vishnu is the Supreme"

[atanu 0]

Dear Raghuram ji,

 

You state

 

“Shiva's names may also belong to Bhagavan Vishnu, but I doubt girish in svetashvatara upanishad refers solely to Vishnu because Vishnu is lying on Ananta Deva while Shiva is in Kailash”

 

Shri Raghuramji, you have defeated yourself. Vishnu is eternal energy without requiring any support. Shiva is same. All Gods are this eternal subtle energy. The whole energy is Sada Shiva or Maha Vishnu or Brahman.

 

In your eagerness to prove that Vishnu is supreme, you have limited MahaVishnu, by showing him requiring support of Ananta Deva. Who is Ananta Deva, may I dare to ask? One who supports another must be greater than the one who is supported.

 

Let stop our attempts to prove who is greater. With our small ness can we judge the unlimited beings? It is puerile. Can a piece of sand of a mountain compare size of the mountains?

 

Actually Ananta Deva is Kala – time. Shiva transcends time:

 

namaste astu bhagavanh vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya

tripurAntakAya trikAgni-kAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya

nIlakaNThAya mrutyunjayAya sarveshvarAya

sadAshivAya shrImanmahAdevAya namaH || 2\.0||

 

If you stop your endeavor to prove superiority of one over another, you will realize that MahaVishnu is residing in your heart as atman – the energy also transcends time.

 

There is no point in trying to see as to who is greater. However, there is every reason for Bhaki to MahaVishnu. We are too small to understand his limits. He is limitless.

 

In a different thread, I learnt that Suta Goswamy, the parrot of Radharani is Shiva. It is such a beautiful knowledge. But the author of the thread claims superiority of Vishnu based on this evidence. There is nothing more puerile. We, equate strength with ability to subdue another through force or intellect. We tend to believe that the Bhaka is the subdued one and hence inferior to the deity. This happens due to overlapping of Ego on the Self – the egoless Atman. Which mother and father are not devotees of their children? Mother selflessly devotes all her energies towards the well being of the child. Does this make the child superior or the mother inferior?

 

I have been meditating for sometime now. Adjacent to my residence, there is a Lord Balaji temple, where the priest or someone used to play devotional songs from 5 AM and 6PM through loudspeaker. This used to create minor disturbances in my meditation. But, with the teaching of Shiva: learn to dissociate from the externalities. Do not react to objects in your externalities, with time the loud noise ceased to affect me at all. However, one day I visited the temple, as if led by Lord Shiva himself, and the songs through the loudspeaker stopped altogether.

 

Who will gauge the greatness of Lord Vishnu? Me? I am not that innocent as not to understand the greatness of the power that Lord Vishnu represents. He is compassion, and He is also auspicious. If Lord Shiva will not be Lord Vishnu’s devotee then whose devotee He can be? Similarly, you must know that Lord Vishnu also is a devotee of Lord Shiva.

 

Let us not judge who is greater. Both are unlimited and beyond our imagination. We may however tap the goodness through any name and form. If you are a true devotee, Lord Vishnu himself may take you to Lord Shiva, if required. Gods do not have ego and that is why they are Gods.

 

Atanu

[Guest guest]

Raghu sir claims, this was a handiwork of saivaites

 

namaste astu bhagavanh vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya

tripurAntakAya trikAgni-kAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya

nIlakaNThAya mrutyunjayAya sarveshvarAya

sadAshivAya shrImanmahAdevAya namaH || 2\.0||

 

 

and not a part of the original. So there is no point in quoting it here.

 

Whatever you say falls into deaf ears.

[Guest guest]

Dear Guest,

 

Ego does not allow some people to accept that everything is good. It harms them only.

 

I know that Purusha Suktam is a late addition to Rig Veda. But as it exists, it must be the will of the Lord. Nothing happens on its own.

 

But in which thread has Guruji claimed what he has claimed?

 

Atanu

[Guest guest]

 

namaste astu bhagavanh vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya

tripurAntakAya trikAgni-kAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya

nIlakaNThAya mrutyunjayAya sarveshvarAya

sadAshivAya shrImanmahAdevAya namaH || 2\.0||

 

 

where is this from

[Guest guest]

This sloka is from Shree Rudram

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

namaste astu bhagavanh vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya

tripurAntakAya trikAgni-kAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya

nIlakaNThAya mrutyunjayAya sarveshvarAya

sadAshivAya shrImanmahAdevAya namaH || 2\.0||

 

 

This is a mantra from Sri -Rudram as it exists now.

 

Where are the mantras from Sri Rudram taken.

 

Answer is from Yajur Veda Samhita 4:5:1(If I remember right).

 

Then what is the problem with this verse quoted from Rudram ?

 

The issue here is this particular verse is not found in Yajur Veda, while all other verses of Rudram are found in Yajur Veda Samhita.

 

So in conclusion, this verse was made up by shivites.

[Guest guest]

Why doesnt uit tell you what objects Vishnu holds/has and why they have them. How ever makes these website need to bloody put what objects they hold and why so us children/teenages can do there bloody homeworke proply!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

Since this has come up on its own.

 

------------

1.22.20 Tad visnom paranam padam sada pashyanti suryah, divya chaksur atatam

 

 

 

RV 1.22

 

16 The Gods be gracious unto us even from the place whence Visnu strode through the seven regions of the earth!

20 The princes evermore behold that loftiest place where the supreme feet Visnu is, laid as it were an eye in heaven.

21 This, Vishnu's station most sublime, the singers, ever vigilant, Lovers of holy song, light up.

-------------

 

 

These are the verses from Rig Veda that make you think of foolish supremacy of one god over another. I ask what is “param padanam”? Why straight away “param” is not said? Is it not since Visnu is movement (gati) of Lord?

 

 

When Rig Veda talks of different attributes and functions represented by different names many think Rig Veda is talking of individuals. Rig Veda talks of one Lord alone.

 

Book 1 HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas.

10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son. Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born

 

 

HYMN XLIII. Rudra.

1 WHAT shall we sing to Rudra, strong, most bounteous, excellently wise, That shall be dearest to his heart?

2 That Aditi may grant the grace of Rudra to our folk, our kine, our cattle and our progeny;

 

Aditi and Rudra are same. One sings to Rudra and Aditi grants Rudra's grace.

 

 

Now I will just give a few verses to show why “param padanam” instead of “param”.

 

 

 

Rig Veda Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra.

 

1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds. He gains the power that brings success, for great is he.

 

20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways, With reference whereto the wise have ordered this.

 

 

Note: Now that Indra is the mind of Rudra.

 

 

 

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra.

 

14 Aditi also hath brought forth a hymn for Indra, Sovran Lord: The work of sacrifice for help is glorified.

 

 

27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.

 

 

 

 

Note: Visnu through Indra’s energy took wide strides and formed the quarters.

 

 

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.

 

1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise.

 

 

9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

 

 

Note: Visnu sings Indra’s praise

 

 

Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra.

 

1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his. When he came showing forth his majesty and power, he drank of Soma juice and waxed exceeding strong.

 

2 This majesty of his, Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might

 

 

Note: Visnu extols and lauds majesty of Indra

 

 

 

Visnu lauds Indra. Visnu extols Indra. : Visnu sings Indra’s praise.

 

 

And Indra is mind of Rudra, Son of courser. And Visnu is arrow, gati, movement of Rudra. Visnu moves with Indra’s energy and Indra is Rudra’s mysterious mind.

 

 

And then

 

 

Rig Veda 7.46.2

 

To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

 

He through his lordship thinks on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway.

 

 

Note: the self-dependent God. All through Vedas, Rudra alone and no other God is mentioned as self dependent. And He is the conqueror whom none may overcome. Why?

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.

a -------

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

 

 

Yajur Veda: iv. 5. 9.

 

a ----------.

p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods

 

 

 

Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

 

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

 

 

 

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

 

 

 

 

Note: All else --- Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu ---- claim and merit praise on account of Him alone.

 

 

 

 

 

Sarveshvara

SU III, 3-4

i) 3. On all sides eye, on all sides face,

on all sides arms, on all sides feet,

he, God, the One, creates heaven and earth,

forging them together with arms and wings.

4. He who is source and origin of the Gods,

the Lord of all, Rudra, the mighty sage,

who produced in ancient days the Golden Germ--

may he endow us with purity of mind!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.

 

(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion.

 

Note: (Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down;

 

 

Indra is the Lord of Visnu like Adityas are the Lords of Maruts

 

 

Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9.

a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma.

b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteenfold Stoma.

 

 

Rig Veda Book 5 HYMN III. Agni.

 

3 The life forces deck their beauty for thy glory, yea, Rudra, for thy birth fair, brightly-coloured. That which was fixed as Visnu's loftiest station-therewith the secret of the Cows thou guardest.

 

 

Question: Why Vedas speak of Visnu’s loftiest station and not that Visnu is the lofty station? Since Visnu is His movement. Indra is His mind. Agni is his will.

 

 

 

Rig Veda Book 1 HYMN LXXII. Agni.

 

1. THOUGH holding many gifts for men, he humbleth the higher powers of each wise ordainer. Agni is now the treasure-lord of treasures, for ever granting all immortal bounties.

2 The Gods infallible all searching found not him, the dear Babe who still is round about us. Worn weary, following his track, devoted, they reached the lovely highest home of Agni.

------

4 Making them known to spacious earth and heaven, the holy Ones revealed the powers of Rudra.

 

 

 

 

Lord is one and Visnu and Siva is one.