Can a Guru fall down?

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna.

 

I have always wondered about this ever since I came into contact with Krishna Conciousness some 8 years now. For the first 3 years I was a Brahmacari living in Iskcon temples... going with the flow. It never occured to me in the beginning, but after seeing various guru's fall down (my own temple president was a sanyas guru who fell), I started to have doubts but was always apprehensive to question it.

 

From the law books of His divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, one can understand that the position of guru is the most exhalted and highest perfecional stage. Srila Prabhupada proclaims this over and over again and there are practically hundreds of quotes where he says that the guru is the most confidential servant of the Lord, a maha-bhagavat, uttama adhikari & paramahamsa. Sri Krishna himself states that the guru is 'one who has seen the truth'. It's quite clear.

 

So why? I think it's a fair question. An important one also.

 

Jay Gauranga

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna!

 

I have been in ISKCON for 8 years now as well and have been chanting steadily.

 

Though i have not lived in an ISKCON temple, i have read about guru falling down and yes...the same question popped in my head...why are they falling?

 

I am unable to find satisfactory answers to my expectations. So, i wondered and figuered that maya is so strong that anybody can be a victim and this has been the case historically as well.

 

Sage Vishwamitra was a great ascetic and a mystic yogi. He could travel the netherworlds and so forth. This was because of his penance and austerity. Such a great personality fell down once and ofcourse he regained his position again later. Neverhtless, he fell down and married and had a family.

 

Srila Prabhupada also said once, maya attacked me but i was not attracted. So, maya is attacking everybody in the form of self-doubt, doubts on the scriptures, material desires and so forth.

 

As long as we are in this material platform we have to confront with maya till death. Bharata Maharaj is another example where maya attacked him in the form of a deer. At the time of his death, a great sage that he was, got attracted to the deer and thought of the deer during his death and hence became a deer in his next life.

 

I think we can only learn from the people around us and become more smart. Seeing all this and hearing all this, we should learn that we should be very careful and advance in Krishna Con per our limitations and not take on more responsbilities if we cannot handle them.

 

Although, i dont know why advanced gurus fall down, i will only learn from the incidents that Krishna Con is very difficult and we should be vigilant, strong and have complete faith that Krishna will protect us.

 

I think this is our test as devotees in Krishna Conscious- never lose sight of Krishna or get deluded due to the various material glitter we see everyday.

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Guest guest]

REAL GURUS do not fall. Devotees who are actually SINCERE in their love for Krishna are not swayed by maya. They do not fall.

 

Does not the Bhagavatam say if you cannot deliver someone you have no business being a guru? If a guru has fallen then he has cheated everyone by posing as a guru.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna!

 

That is true devotees who are sincere in their love for Krishna will not fall and that is why they are devotees. However, one has to understand that people do make mistakes and by dint of nature and circumstance we can make wrong judgements even though we have the best intentions at heart.

 

So, maya can be deceptive and strong in making you to think you did the right thing while you can still fall down.

 

In the same scriptures (not sure where) it says that gurus may fall and hence the disciple should move on with devotional service and can seek other gurus. So, there is a recognition of this fact in the scriptures that gurus can fall. Only, we can predict there will be more in this age of Kali as it is also predicted in the scriptures that there will be many fake gurus.

 

The problem for me is....this....if there is a guru and he is a sincere and very austere guru initially but for some reason he falls, now how do we see him? There is another category where there are fake gurus from day 1. They become gurus just to cheat. But we are conerned about gurus who sincerely want to serve Krishna in the beginning but later in their life for some reason fall down.

 

Hence the scriptures give room for them saying they will come back and continue their devotional service. So the scriptures go both ways but i dont think we can comment on a guru's downfall, probably a person above the position of the fallen guru can comment. We can only learn from them and not make the same mistake.

 

This is my take on this. Although scriptures have strict codes for sanyasis and gurus, it also recognises maya is stronger.

 

But, i personally think a guru should not be a guru if he cannot be in loving service to God 24/7.

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[prajot_nair 0]

The influence of maya is so strong that anyone can fall

basically we are all going thru a testing phase, who all

come into this krisna Consciousness will have to faceit,

because you have to enter the spiritual kingdom,

you have to really qaulify for that.krishna consciousness is

a gradual process more over we are not living in satyuga,

we are in kaliyug,where presence of maya is so strong.

Wherever you go,see...her influence either in form of sex,jealousy,...>coming out of it is not a joke.,you have to be careful.

As said krisna Consciousness is a gradual process one has to

give up all that step by step .Normally people feel its simple to be a krishna devotee.but you must ready to face

the acid test to be his devotee.for he requires only

those soul who are dedicated .As he knows souls with this

Materialistic nature cant survive in his kingdom.

 

If you want to get in a good college you have to prepare yourself and it takes lots of effort.once you qalify in the

entrance test you get into it,

 

It is not That Krisna wont help you or that he wont forgive

if you commit mistakes.But if you have done dont try to repeat

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you Anand.

 

In your first reply you provided examples of two individuals that fell into materialism. However, neither of them were gurus. As far as I am aware, Sage Vishwamitra attained the very high level of Brahmarishi or the level of Lord Bramha yet the position of guru is even higher because he has the ability to deliver fallen conditioned souls.

 

Yes it is true that Maya will not cease in her attempt to sway a sincere devotee, but the guru will never succumb. He is already situated on the spiritual platform. One who attains this highest position does not fall. Krishna repeatedly makes this point in so many verses in the Gita and Srila Prabhupada is the perfect example.

 

In reference to your second reply, people make mistakes I take it we are talking about ordinary conditioned souls. A guru does not make mistakes. Why? He is libertaed. He is not subject to the four defects of a conditioned soul. This is my understanding.

 

Yes your right, maya is strong. She'll take anyone down. But one who is worshipable on the same level as Krishna himself? I cannot accept this!

 

"In the same scriptures (not sure where) it says that gurus may fall and hence the disciple should move on with devotional service and can seek other gurus."

 

Ananad I have not come across this statement ANYWHERE! This is a serious deviation on siddhanta that is preached in Iskcon to divert the real question which is the question I potsed here.

 

It's certainly heartbreaking when advanced leaders of our society leave. Most recently Harikesa Prabhu who had given so much to the movement Who are we to comment on such topics? I felt the same for many years, one of the reasons why I ignored it. Yet my question remains.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna Prabhu!

 

I totaly empathize with you...why? because i was in this state of mind for many months and i did not get any satisfactory answer from anyone. It took me to a place where i started to doubt the philosohpy itself because how can one fall down if you are so close to Srila Prabhupada and commit a big apradh (talking about the original GBC members). I still dont know how it is happening and happened?

 

After sometime, i started to realise that everyone is capable of making a mistake. Souls like Ac.Bhaktivedanta Swami are Parahamsas and they dont come very often. So to expect every guru to be in the platform of Srila Prabhupada........not sure if that is how to look at things.

 

So, now the simple thing is to actually define who are real gurus. Yes, you are perfectly correct by saying Gurus should not fall down, and if they did fall down then they are not gurus, simple. So, if 9 out of 10 gurus in ISKCON fall down, we have to say 9 gurus were not gurus at all or they were not advanced enough to take the mantle of guru status.

 

So what happens to their disciples and everyone who associated with that Guru....simple......what happens when MAYA strikes you individually in a different form and how do you react......the same way MAYA has taken away the guru you thought who was a guru and now you have to dig in deep into Krishna and depend on HIM more.

 

So, in other words, if people fall down, it is solely by the strength of MAYA and that person was a guru was not a guru at all in the first place.

 

We should not be emotional in this, rather we should approach through knowledge (spiritual knowledge) and that knowledge should dictate our thoughts and actions towards a fallen guru or for that matter anybody.

 

I guess what iam trying to say is....though lot of bad things happen around us (inside or outside of ISKCON), we have to continue with our lives and we have to learn and be stronger and be wiser and nurture our faith and devotion to Srila Prabhupada, Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and ultimately to Radha and Krishna.

 

It will not be an easy road, and we have to recognize that it will not be easy to be a Krishna devotee and by that recognition we must learn to be extra careful and prepare to fight MAYA.

 

Hope ISKCON goes back to its glory days and we get inspired by the devotees.

 

Finally to answer you query about the statement i said regarding disciples to move on if the guru falls down, i think i read it in somebody's reply to somebody. But i know i read it but obviously i dont remember where.

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Guest guest]

"There does not arise any question of discriminating my Guru from yours or anyone else's. There is only one Guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others." (Abhay Charan Das, 1936)

 

"There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service." (Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila, 1.47, purport)

 

"God is always God, Guru is always Guru."

(The Science of Self Realisation, chapter 2)

 

"Well if he is bad, how can he become a guru?"

(The Science of Self Realisation, chapter 2)

 

"The pure devotee is always free from the clutches of Maya and her influence." (S.B. 5.3.14)

 

"There is no possibility that a first class devotee will fall down."

 

(C.c. Madhya, 22.71)

 

"A spiritual master is always liberated."

(SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 21/6/70)

 

"A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord."

(Bg. 4.42, purport)

[sundarananda 0]

For the person who is sincerely surrendered to Sri Krishna there is no question of falling down.

 

The Guru can not be anything less than a fully surrendered soul

 

 

[Guest guest]

the guru may be influenced by yogamaya, eternal potency of the lord so we must be careful to see which one is influencing the guru and not the mahamaya... not all mayas are the same just like all avataras are the same as only krishna does the rasa lila but rama had only sita

[Guest guest]

it depends on how long it takes for the guru to get back up to be fallen... that is why there are programs for gurus to get back up again

[Guest guest]

A bonafide guru never falls down.

But then who is a bonafide guru? A bonafide guru is one who talks krishna katha 24 hrs a day. A bonafide guru must be a mahabhagwat (who chants 64 rounds daily) . I have seen, nowadays even those who chant 16 rounds daily, are accepting disciples. Srila Prabhupada reduced 64 rounds to 16 because it is v difficult in this kaliyug for an ordinary person to concentrate for 8 hours continuously. But that doesnt mean that Srila Prabhupada certified that those who are chanting 16 rounds or even 32 rounds, can accept disciples.

 

My spiritual master (all glories to his lotus feet), is a mahabhagwat. It has been almost 1 year that he initiated me, but till date he hasnt talked anything but krishna katha. Sometimes when I fail to obey his instructions, it causes me guilt and fear. These are the true symptoms of a bonafide guru. In his company, you must feel less comfortable. those gurus who are not strict to disciples and assent to their laziness and negligence are not bonafide gurus.

 

Take for that matter, Srila Gaura Govind Swami. He was such a powerful Vaisnava. those who have seen the Absolute Truth will never be attracted to this filthy material world because they have got a higher taste.

Therefore any guru who falls down, is not a guru at all, because he has not seen the Absolute Truth.

 

[Guest guest]

You forgot to mention the name of your guru /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

Gour Govinda Swami was a great soul and a qualified guru. Shame Iskcon couldn't recognise that!

[Guest guest]

read the story of Ajimila and Jada Bharat

[Guest guest]

My Gurudev's name is His Holiness Srinidhi Nityanandapda Maharaj. All glories to him.

 

Also check this link out:

http://www.gopaljiu.org/Gurudeva/Gurudeva.htm

[Guest guest]

Clicking you the link, one is taken to a short bio of Gour Govinda Swami. There is no mention of the name "Srinidhi Nityanandapda Maharaj." Doing a search, no websites are listed for that name.

 

Rather confusing ...

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna !

sorry for the confusion !

Actually I replied to two posts in my previous post.

First, was the name of my Guru. and second I gave the link on the lifetime of Srila Gaur Govind Swami.

 

:-)

[Guest guest]

My Gurudeva not being listed in the websites, does not in any way lowers down his position of being a Mahabhagwat.

 

In fact, this also proves his exalted position, that He is not inclined to any kind of publicity by being named in any websites.

He is not with ISKCON, because on some points his preaching differs from ISKCON preaching. He is the disciple of disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

The reason my Gurudeva is outside ISKCON is that along with Hare Krishna Mahamantra, He is also preaching Nityananda-Gauranga mantras. Since, ISKCON does not openly preach these mantras, though it does nitai-gaura deity worship, my Guru has to come out.

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you for clarifying. It was just a little confusing, is all. Hare Krishna.