Same Sex Realtionships are Demonic

[kcp1982 0]

Hare Krishna.

 

Now days everyone is talking about this but know-one is saying that same sex relationships are demonic. So, I want to make the Vedic view clear.

 

Just as ellicit sex is prohibited, lust with the same gender is just too demonic.

 

It's complete ignorance and lust that makes one fall into this most demonic thought and practice of lusting within the same gender.

 

Even the animals know better, these gays and lesbians are lower than any animal. Their mind has been totally won over by the worst kind of ignorance and lust.

 

I wrote an article to chakra.org on this but they are not interested in publishing. They actualy have some articles written by those who support this demonic behaviour. I am sure many organizations have a similar view. This is truly Kali Yuga, the age of mass ignorance, irreligion, sin, and demonic behaviour.

 

 

 

[Max_ 0]

Well someones tolerant of other devotees.

 

I think you fail to realize that there are Vaishnava devotees who are gay/lesbian/bisexual and they serve Krishna with just as much devotion as anyone else. Also the Vedas say to abstain from sexual relations in general unless it's in married life to produce Krishna Conscious children. The only real grounds for argument here is possible the legalization of gay marriage, in that there is influence of the Kali Age.

[kcp1982 0]

Hare Krishna.

 

Tolerance doesn't mean you allow anything and everything.

 

Tolerance means to forgive those who sin in ignorance but not those who sin in knowledge.

 

A KC person is only supposed to have sex to have children who will become KC. Sex for self-enjoyment is called lust or ellicit sex.

 

Gay/lesbian people have a lusty desire with the people of the same sex. This is called ellicit sex of the worst kind.

 

I know there are many devotees who are gay/lesbian. They should not be offended by my statements and should come out of ignorace now. This advice is for their own well being.

 

The children would love to eat candies all day, but the parents should tell them not to. For they will suffer otherwise with cough, tooth diseases etc..

 

 

[bowdownmr 0]

Friends:

 

I am a newcomer to KC, having recently picked up the Bhagavad Gita As It Is and beginning my path on my spiritual journey. There is much in KC and the Hindu belief system that corresponds with the view of the universe that I have developed over many years of introspection and study of many theological systems. I find that the more I study, read and chant the maha-mantra the more connected to God/Krishna I feel.

 

I am also an openly gay man. I am 34 now, but I came out when I was 18 years old. I am very comfortable and happy with my sexuality and feel that it is an inherent part of me. It is *not* something that I chose, or would choose to change now.

 

In an earlier post "kcp1982" says: "Even the animals know better, these gays and lesbians are lower than any animal. Their mind has been totally won over by the worst kind of ignorance and lust."

 

Actually, homosexuality in animals has been widely reported by biologists. Chimpanzees, orangutans and even penguins have been known to exhibit homosexual behavior. Homosexuality is by no means the norm, but it does indeed exist at fairly consistent ratios throughout most vertebrate species.

 

It is very insulting to be called "lower than any animal". This sort of rhetoric usually comes from fundamentalist Christians, Jews and Muslims. I am a bit shocked that I am confronted with such bigotry here - I indeed expected a little more enlightened crowd among KC-ers.

 

I certainly appreciate that "kcp1982" has his/her own opinions about such issues and how scriptures should be interpreted - but I don't feel that it is productive to use such pejorative language in this or any forum.

 

Certainly, Krishna devotees in the West have suffered horribly from the comical stereotypes that appear in films, TV, etc. "Hare Krishnas" are seen as mindless, silly and confused followers of a dangerous cult. We all have own own journey to make in this life and on our path to Krishna. We should not be so judgemental toward others.

 

If my homosexuality is an offense to Krishna, then I think that He and I can sort it out on our own. It should not cause offense to anyone else.

 

I am very happy to have found this forum, and look forward to participating in discussions. I have many questions about KC, so look for more from me soon.

 

Hare Krishna!

 

[kcp1982 0]

Hare Krishna.

 

A KC person, called a Vaisnava has all respects for all beings, including gays and lesbians.

 

Bowdownmr, please forgive my offences.

 

As I said before children would love to eat candy all day, but it's the parents responsibility to advive them against it.

 

As one progresses into KC, he will realize that all attachments to a materialist life like lust, greed and anger are all gates to hell.

 

I know it's difficult to control the senses but it is possible through KC.

 

Controling the senses is like controlling the wind, very difficult. But possible through KC.

 

My point is that we should not encourage others to go into the hellish path (through lust, greed, anger etc..).

 

If the parents don't teach their children what is right and what is wrong. Then the children will go astray.

 

 

[bowdownmr 0]

Thanks for your kindness, kcp1982.

 

I agree that it is the responsibility of parents to teach their children right and wrong and to guide them as best they can to strive for goodness and righteousness.

 

There are many attachments in our lives - money, sex, power, anger, jealousy, etc. - and I do see how KC can help us manage and resist such attachments.

 

However, my homosexuality isn't an "attachment" anymore than your heterosexuality would be. It is a state of being. Homosexuality is a natural part of me, and one's sexual orientation is merely a state of being.

 

What brings attachment into sexuality is how we act upon it. A heterosexual man who chooses to have multiple affairs with different women is attached to illict sex as much as is his gay counterpart who lives in a similar way. However, a monogamous homosexual couple sharing their love together does not fall into this category - just like monogamous heterosexuals don't.

 

I agree with you that we should not encourage others to participate in illicit sexual activities. However, this is not as cut and dry as "don't have gay sex". Substituting illict heterosexual activity for illicit homosexual activity does not yield any net gain. We should encourage people to be responsible with their sexuality, regardless of their orientation, and to discourage non-monogamous sexual relationships.

 

If we teach our children to respect themselves, they will natually be respectful others. If we teach gay children to deplore themselves out of some sense of "traditional values" then we are being irresponsible and will push them away from seeing any good in religion at all. In other words, they will become irreligous if religious beliefs are presented to them in a way that conflicts with their innate being.

 

I was raised in a Christian (Southern Baptist) environment. For a long time, I considered myself an Atheist because I felt so rejected by the church and saw so much hypocricy in their positions. I felt so ostracized that religion became a complete waste of time. It took me YEARS to realize that God is not the church and that my relationship with God is a direct one - I don't have to please the church to please God.

 

As I said before, if my homosexuality is an offense to Krishna I am certain that we can work it out. My sexuality is really irrelevant to anyone else.

 

Hare Krisna.

 

 

[sumedh 0]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

Our friend bowdownmr makes a quite valid point. One who is attracted to the message of the Lord cannot be remotely compared to animals or normal materialistic persons. There arises no question of using such words for other devotees. We sometimes find that our Spiritual Masters use harsh words but those are to wake us up for our ultimate good; we cannot immitate them, the best we can do is present their quotes in a particular matter. We are not parents here, all of us are children and the parents are our Spiritual Masters. It will do no good to us to try to imitate them in any manner. We must remember their words as regards behaviour towards other devotees, and the words of the Lord "Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated". After taking to Krishna Consciousness it may take sometime to give up all the attraction to material things (sometimes even a lifetime); habits are very strong but sincerity and mercy of Lord arising thereof are our only hope. In fact we do not even know what complete surrender means or what complete attraction to Krishna is like.

 

We must discourage actions leading to material consciousness but cannot criticize the devotees. Of course, there is no question of relaxing any of the regulative principles etc. and that is a different matter altogether. Our friend has an attraction to same-sex, but that is not a problem to seriously take to Krishna Consciousness or become initiated as long as that option is not exercised. Really how many devotees can actually claim that their attraction for opposite sex has been completely nullified in favour of attraction to Krishna.

[kcp1982 0]

Hare Krishna.

 

I am sure as we progress with KC. We will learn to control our senses more and slowly give up our bad habits.

 

There is a site where the devotees can listen to the Bhagavad-gita as it is in English, Sanskrit, Hindi, and Arabic. All 700 verses with one click, free. At www.gitamrta.org

 

 

 

[sumedh 0]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

 

What brings attachment into sexuality is how we act upon it. A heterosexual man who chooses to have multiple affairs with different women is attached to illict sex as much as is his gay counterpart who lives in a similar way. However, a monogamous homosexual couple sharing their love together does not fall into this category - just like monogamous heterosexuals don't.

 

 

 

Actually according to vaishnava standards, monogamous heterosexuals are only allowed to have a relationship for the purpose of bearing God conscious children else it is considered illicit. Likewise if the parents fail in their duty to properly bring up their children it should be considered their shortcoming. Hence a relationship between two gays would be considered as voilating the regulative principles. Ya, vaishnava standards are tough from the look of it but when one seriously and completely takes to Krishna Consciousness then these start to come naturally to us; takes some time though.

[bowdownmr 0]

Thank you very much for welcoming me to this discussion.

 

I don't completely understand this part of your message, Sumedh:

 

"Our friend has an attraction to same-sex, but that is not a problem to seriously take to Krishna Consciousness or become initiated as long as that option is not exercised."

 

I take this to mean, "It's OK to have same-sex attraction, so long as you don't actually engage in sex".

 

Further you write, "monogamous heterosexuals are only allowed to have a relationship for the purpose of bearing God conscious children else it is considered illicit" seems to imply that the vast majority of mankind is engaging in illicit sex - even if they are in a monogamous relationship.

 

I do not question vaishnava standards (and certainly I am just starting to learn about such things), but respectfully I cannot understand how such concepts are expected to work. If you intend "vaishnava" to mean only those who are deeply committed to KC then I do see what you mean, but if you meant it in a broader sense of all Krishna devotees of any degree it falls apart as an un-realistic expectation.

 

Our sexuality, both hetero- and homosexual, is an innate part of us. It is deeply engrained in our genetic and psychological makeup. We, like our cousins in the rest of the animal kingom, have biological drives - and certainly the drive to procreate is one of the stronger ones. I do not believe that God/Krishna would have created us so, with the expectation that we would behave completely contrary to our nature.

 

That is not to say that we are not or should not be masters of our own drives and desires. Just because we can or want to do/have a thing doesn't mean that we should actually do/have it. We should discipline ourselves and our minds - but we should also not completely deny who and what we are.

 

There is a profound connection between two people who genuinely love one another to the exclusion of all others. There is a bond that is shared, more intimate than any other, and part of that is expressed in sexual intercourse. Yes, nature's true intent for intercourse is indeed procreation. However, unlike other animals human females have estrus each month of their adult lives until they reach menopause. To my knowledge, no other mammal exhibits such behavior. There is no "mating season" for humans. Humans can mate at almost any time. Furthermore, humans don't engage in sex simply to procreate. There are profound psychological motivators involved, and certainly sex can be illicit and meaningless or spiritually nourishing and profound.

 

Perhaps I am "too western" in my mindset that sex is more than just a mechanical, procreative act. Real intimacy between committed, loving people has a value all its own.

 

Again, thank you for the welcome. I do look forward to exploring many issues with you all.

 

Hare Krishna.

[sumedh 0]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

Dear bowdownmr, i will try to explain to the best of my ability the little i have learnt from our Spiritual Masters.

 

 

I take this to mean, "It's OK to have same-sex attraction, so long as you don't actually engage in sex".

 

 

 

Not that its ok, just that it takes some time to actually reach the stage where our attraction to material things and pleasures diminishes to the stage of being negligible. Although we may take great pleasure in material things, but we must give the preference to the Lord for the sake of God-realization and attaining to our pure nature. Basic principle is that all that we do should be for the pleasure of the Lord (and not our sensual pleasure) for that is the only function of the soul.

 

 

Further you write, "monogamous heterosexuals are only allowed to have a relationship for the purpose of bearing God conscious children else it is considered illicit" seems to imply that the vast majority of mankind is engaging in illicit sex - even if they are in a monogamous relationship.

 

 

 

From the vaishnava point of view, yes. In the true sense of the word vaishnava means the pure devotee of the Supreme Lord where devotion stems from the soul and not just from the mental plane; in that stage gradually there remains no difference between the mind/body and the soul. In the neophyte and intermediate stages we in a way take to "imitating" the vaishnava behaviour before it actually comes to us as an unadulterated function of the soul. It has therefore been said by the Spiritual Masters that all jivas (spirit souls) are actually vaishnava by nature but those conditioned in the innumerable material universes have taken to a contrary perverted nature. Our feelings and logic in this regard have little value for they stem from the mental/intellectual plane and not from our soul. Just like the material world is a perverted reflection of the eternal spiritual realm, the material minds/desires etc. of the conditioned souls are a perverted reflection of the true nature of the soul. Thus we want to be happy (Srila BhaktiSiddhanta gives the nice example of the mother who bangs her head and cries uncontrollably on learning the death of her child, does so only to destroy the grief) but due to our tendency to enjoy independently of the Lord we ever remain frustrated. Srila BhaktiSiddhanta Saraswati explains that when the soul is in a state comparable to that of slumber then the non-self viz. mind/body/intellect take over and start acting according to their whims rather than serving the true self.

 

Actually these are only high sounding theoretical words for anyone but who has experienced even the droplet of faint reflection of the adi-rasa (the transcendental mellow) of attraction to Krishna. God has created as we are so that we may try and fulfil our illegimitate desire of trying to be independent of Him, and sooner and later understand that such an attempt is not only futile but impossible for we are part and parcel of Him. The human life has the highest level of consciousness among the living beings and we have substantially more freedom/free-will than other living entities, but that brings in more responsibility alongwith for God realization is possible in these human bodies. In the Vedic texts it has been given that the other living entites (plants/animals) are not subject to the laws of karma as the human beings and those have been called "bhoga-yoni" (species we attain to experience what we deserve/desire) as opposed to the human level which is "karma-yoni". The soul in the lower species gradually comes to higher stages naturally, but in the human life we can go to anywhere from servant of God to the lowest stage as we develop our consciousness. The love bond between two persons comes from the mental plane and so has little value other than keeping us bound in this material world; in truth as i have said it is a perverted reflection of the pure love of the soul for God. When the true love manifests from the soul, then it is for God and consequently for all the other beings without distinction.

 

The expectation for everyone to become God conscious is not unrealistic (actually sometime or the other everyone has to do it) for we have been given the most potent thing in the form of chanting of the Holy Names to that end by the mercy of the Lord. If anyone seriously follows the four regulative principles and chanting sixteen rounds for say about three months then it will be seen that it is easy and rather more natural (however, old habits can sometimes take a toll of our precious time). On the other side, if we leave it for even a few days we will observe that the material attraction is overpowering very quickly and even taking to the regulative principles is very difficult with the result that our devotional creeper suffers much.

[bowdownmr 0]

Dear Sumedh:

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain so patiently your meaning. I do understand more completely now what you meant, and I have also done some additional research and reading since my last posting which illuminated your point further.

 

There is so much for one to learn.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

[bowdownmr 0]

I found the following on the dipika.com website:

 

===============================

 

Gay Monogamy

From Hridayananda dasa Goswami (GBC)

Posted Dec. 19, 2004

 

In a recent essay (appearing on Chakra), Amara Prabhu raises the following question:

 

"Gay marriage is ... taken to be outside of the rigid varnasrama system and the ordinary prescription for married life, but suppose it is found to be the best practical arrangement to sustain a person's bhakti, someone who is exclusively homosexual and unable to follow complete celibacy. Can an exception be made to the general rule in the spirit of encouraging bhakti, as cited above, or should we give more importance to the rigid codes of ordinary dharma?"

 

I agree with Amara that a truly spiritual society must constantly seek a balance between the strict codes of varashrama, and the practical spiritual needs of sincere devotees. There can be no doubt that a significant number of souls whose external sexual orientation is homosexual sincerely strive to be Krishna conscious. It is entirely natural and predictable that a majority of these devotees, as with most hetereosexual devotees, will not be suited for lifelong celibacy.

 

My view of this issue is as follows:

 

1. As a general rule, we should appreciate devotees in terms of the sincerity and the diligence of their spiritual attempts, given the psycho-physical circumstances of their life. In other words, in any condition of life, if a devotee sincerely strives to please Krishna, that devotee is to be admired.

 

2. It is the duty of any society to recognize, and thus encourage, the admirable behavior of its members. Monogamy, among devotees of any orientation, is an admirable achievement in the context of today's promiscuous society, and should be thus appreciated and encouraged.

 

3. Given the need to balance strict varnashrama with liberal spirituality, I believe that ISKCON should recognize and encourage monogamy among all its members of whatever orientation, and that such recognition and encouragement should take appropriate forms that achieve both purposes: the maintenance of varnashrama and the encouraging of spiritual sincerity.

 

4. I am not convinced that marriage is the best means in all cases, but some serious, formal, and public recognition and appreciation of gay monogamy is, in my view, in the best interest of ISKCON and its members.

 

With best wishes,

 

Hridayananda das Goswami

 

© dipika.org Dec. 19, 2004

 

==============================

 

Source: http://www.dipika.org/2004/12/20/19_hdg_on_gay_monogamy/index.html

[sumedh 0]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

Dear bowdownmr, please consider the following as my opinion only.

 

Hridayananda das Goswamiji gives nice points and i agree with him mostly. The thing is that from the spiritual point of view all kinds of sexual attraction need to be given up gradually in favour of the greatest attraction. The vaishnava standards are difficult initially, and so Srila Prabhupada sometimes said that it is not easy to become a vaishnava. An implicit understanding of the monogamous relationships in the sense of no discrimination and embarrasment is correct just as for the normal relationships which do not match up to vaishnava standards; however in formal initiation the word to the Spiritual Master is to give up all kinds of illicit sex among other things. In my opinion, in the context of ISKCON or gaudiya math a formal acceptance would not be possible. The reason being that none of the previous empowered Acharyas sanctioned same sex marriage in the institutions and thus that has to be continued. The Vedic texts say that if a disciple wants to modify some regulations of his Master then he/she has to setup an alternative society and cannot use even a penny from his Master's organization. It is for this reason that Srila Prabhupada established a new institution ISKCON, instead of opening branches of Gaudiya Math for he changed some rules/regulations to suit the western and other audience. As for iskcon, i think all they would do is to follow Srila Prabhupada's example in having gays as congregational members without any problems but not formal acceptance of marriage.

 

I also believe that it is highly unlikely that any empowered Acharya will actually accept formal acceptance of same sex marriage. The reason for that is somewhat subtle but we conditioned souls generally reject such explanations. It is because the normal sexual attraction is a perverted reflection of the original transcendental attraction between God and the souls as His energies; thus to gradually bring it to the correct platform (alongwith other important reasons like bringing up children etc.) the institution of marriage is provided in all societies. However, the root of the same sex attraction is essentially the rules and regulations of the society which restrict indulgence with opposite sex. When the jiva desires to enjoy independently then nature provides sexual and other material enjoyments and when the jiva acutely desires some other way out to deal with the prohibitions, material nature kindly provides the innate tendency of same sex attraction. Consequently if any formal acceptance is given to it then the result will be increasing number of persons born with such tendencies in the future.

 

Of course, no innate tendency can ever disqualify any living being from the path of devotional service.

[Guest guest]

 

I fully agree with Hridayananda Maharaja's article and believe it is the most intelligent position to take. Other Vaishnavas also accept some form of same-sex marriage arrangements for devotees who are third-gender by nature. After all, you cannot force people to be celibate. For most, Krsna consciousness and renunciation is a gradual process.

 

As a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, I also believe he would have changed his mind about this topic and allowed gay disciples to marry, at least if they were living outside the temple as householders. His original comments were only initial reactions and were made over thirty years ago. Preaching must always be dynamic and practical.

 

[Guest guest]

stop blaspheming srila prabhupada, pure vaishnavas know present, past and future and their instructions are eternal

 

no one can condemn any kind of devotee, sexual orientations belongs to the body.. but marriage is an eternal spiritual procedure and it is done for regulating procreation, sex attachement and to unite two people, male and female, in krsna's service..

 

any change in marriage's rules is a sin...

 

there's not the need to concoct something new, to speculate aboutour revered acharyas to be appreciative to devotees and not sectarian

[Guest guest]

 

Gay marriage is nothing new and was even mentioned many thousands of years ago in Vedic scriptures such as the Kama Shastra:

 

"There are also third-sexed citizens, sometimes greatly attached to each other and with complete faith in one another, who get married together." (KS 2.9.36)

 

In Vedic culture there were many different types of marriage, both religious and secular. There are also always exceptions to the general rule. People who are born with only same-sex attraction would certainly be such an exception.

 

If a same-sex marriage is the best thing for someone's Krsna consciousness, such an arrangement should be made even if it is outside the typcial smarta-varnasrama norm. This is not blaspheming Srila Prabhupada or anyone else. It is taking the essense or mood of his instructions and applying them practically and effectively.

 

Marriage should be between a man and woman for heterosexuals and between the same sex for homosexuals.

 

[Guest guest]

the problem is that everyone want to feel to be right even if he is not

 

another problem is that no one preaches with love with such people

[sumedh 0]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

There is no need to argue about this. The unambiguous fact is that if a disciple wants to change regulations of his Spiritual Master he/she has to setup a new society; simple okay. If anyone wants to change the regulations as set by Srila Prabhupada in Iskcon let him setup his own society.

[Guest guest]

 

I don't think Hridayananda Maharaja and other gurus are talking about changing any of Srila Prabhupada's rules and regulations. Rather, they are extending Krsna's mercy, as Srila Prabhupada would have done, to everyone including gays. I don't see any problem with accepting gay monogamous devotees if they are living outside the temple. We should be friendly and inclusive of everyone, whether they are strictly following or not. That was Srila Prabhupada's desire and example.

 

If anything, I suggest that the devotees who want to be 'smarta-brahmanas' (mundane religionists who place rules and regulations above everything else) and exclude others from Krsna consciousness, that they should be the ones to leave ISKCON and set up a new society!

[sumedh 0]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

... or try to confuse others by this. Srila Prabhupada had disciples who were gay or lesbian, just follow his example -- does that sound reasonable to you or not. I have already expressed my opinion in the post before; if you cannot understand or pretend not to then nothing can be done. Yes, Srila Prabhupada extended his mercy to gays and lesbians so just follow his example. What is the need to bring this issue as if a new phenomenon when we know how Srila Prabhupada acted on this issue? Anyway, i am not arguing anymore on this issue.

[Guest guest]

vedic literature does not condemn homosexuality, it doesn't even mention it, why? because it is like any other human aspect, it is the result of karma and one must deal with it accordingly, not condemn themselves or others as demonic because that is just not true, everyone has karma to bear and i don't understand why devotees don't just support each other, no one here is better than anyone else, one karmic trait is not better or worse than another, we all simply treading the humble path to god, all genuine relationships are, by definition, based on love, compassion and understanding, same sex or not, how can you call those traits demonic?, i would much rather battle the demonic traits of hate, anger, violence, ego, intolerance etc... give me love, compassion and understanding anytime... from anyone...

[Guest guest]

you simply mistake the right aspect that everyone has the right to have a place in krsna consciousness practice, with the performing of sacred vedic traditional rituals like marriage..

 

so like there's no rule in chanting hare krsna, but there's many rules in keeping deities in a temple.. there's no rules in accepting the process of krsna consciousness, but there's no possibility to concoct something new about marriage

[Guest guest]

u r right!!

max speculate

im the one who is looking for a husband grins

[Samaya11 0]

Hare Krishna,

 

I'm new to the message boards. So far I'm pleased at the respectful manner in which topics are discussed, but am disappointed in the level of biases still present.

 

I fail to see how sexual orientation plays into any religion, and the fact that homosexuality is addressed as "demonic" or should be "unlearned" is appalling to myself.

 

For the record, I'm not a lesbian, but I feel I have to take a stand when it comes to these issues of sexual orientation, because it is the same tyoe of shame as racism, or sexual oppression of women to not say a word.

I have seen many Gay persons suffer and cannot see how this is something they Wanted or a Learned behaviour, simply how they were born as some of us are born with God given traits such as green eyes or red hair. I find it sad that in 2005 we are still debating gay rights & marraige. Some people are attracted to the same sex, sometimes even have the capacity to love both male and female as just people... please let's get over it and stop trying to speak for God on wrong or right.

 

I don't see how the loving couples I see with at times more commited devotion and respect for one another than most contemporary "hetero" couples can be called demonic or why homosexuality is addressed with the "sin" of lust.

 

Let's love and not hurt one another is that not the principle idea of true religion?

 

So here is a question that I've always pondered:

 

Is not God addressed as Radha-Kishan?

with a male and female counterpart meaning that God is not male or female.

 

Does not the same apply for the soul? That within, our essense, as a spark of the divine light we are neither male nor female?

 

 

I don't mean to hurt anyone or single anyone out on this board. I hope to engage in intelligent discussions to enlighten my path to Krishna.

 

-------------------------------

 

Listen without prejudice

~ Samaya