Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 , " vegicate1 " <simonpjones@o...> wrote: > Unintentionally uncapitalized Eve in first post. In the first page of any Bible, it clearly says '' everything that > has the breath of life in it shall eat the plant foods!just because > Adam and Eve or somewhere in history we went wrong with our eating > habits,it doesn't mean it is good to eat fish or any other creature! > The word God and Good come from the same origin,so whether you > believe in God or not,Veggies still believe it is good to not eat > creatures,which is in keeping with the Bibles interpretation of what > God intended us to eat from the beginnning,why so called christians > ignore that or misinterpret it, is a mystery to me. > vegg. ps When I say God,I mean Goodness,because I know Goodness exists like Badness does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 Debbie I often wondered about that. If Noah was given permission to eat, and he took only two animals on board, how come none of them were extinct. Jo > It was in the time of Noah that permission was given to eat meat (the > verse makes it sound like it was reluctantly given, but that's just > MY take on it ;-) -- Genesis 9:3 -- and all creatures that (s)he > lives to you they will be as food like the green grass I have given > to you all. (this is right AFTER 9:2 where G-d says that the fear of > humanity will be in all the creatures) > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 Hi Vegicate > The word God and Good come from the same origin Of course, the word God is ultimately a proper name based on the word god. The " name " of the Christian God is Yahweh or El (depending on which part of the Bible you read). > Veggies still believe it is good to not eat > creatures,which is in keeping with the Bibles interpretation of what > God intended us to eat from the beginnning,why so called christians > ignore that or misinterpret it, is a mystery to me. Looking at it from a purely theological point of view, I believe it comes from the point where God tells Noah that he can eat the flesh of animals. Followed up by the fact that Jesus (an avatar to Christians) quite happily ate fish and lamb. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 Hi Jo (taking the chance of getting laughed at for answering you over e-mail!!!) > I often wondered about that. If Noah was given permission to eat, and he > took only two animals on board, how come none of them were extinct. Unicorns, Phoenices (I assume that's the plural of Phoenix), Sabre-toothed tigers, Mammoths, etc. Quite a feast if you ask me! BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 Hi Jo (taking the chance of getting laughed at for answering you over e-mail!!!) > I often wondered about that. If Noah was given permission to eat, and he > took only two animals on board, how come none of them were extinct. Unicorns, Phoenices (I assume that's the plural of Phoenix), Sabre-toothed tigers, Mammoths, etc. Quite a feast if you ask me! What I'd like to know is how the crows survived!! BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 all he needed to do was eat one diplodocus, that should have sustained them 40 days and nites easily.. they rest apparantly got used as trophies, er maybe an early version of an outboard motor... " what do you mean giant tree sloths can't swim? " fraggle " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: >Hi Jo > >(taking the chance of getting laughed at for answering you over e-mail!!!) > >> I often wondered about that. If Noah was given permission to eat, and he >> took only two animals on board, how come none of them were extinct. > >Unicorns, Phoenices (I assume that's the plural of Phoenix), Sabre-toothed >tigers, Mammoths, etc. Quite a feast if you ask me! > >What I'd like to know is how the crows survived!! > >BB >Peter > > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 > > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 , " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote: > Hi Vegicate > > > The word God and Good come from the same origin > > Of course, the word God is ultimately a proper name based on the word god. > The " name " of the Christian God is Yahweh or El (depending on which part of > the Bible you read). > > > Veggies still believe it is good to not eat > > creatures,which is in keeping with the Bibles interpretation of what > > God intended us to eat from the beginnning,why so called christians > > ignore that or misinterpret it, is a mystery to me. > > Looking at it from a purely theological point of view, I believe it comes > from the point where God tells Noah that he can eat the flesh of animals. > Followed up by the fact that Jesus (an avatar to Christians) quite happily > ate fish and lamb. > > Peter >>>> I think you are correct Peter,regarding the latest Bibical accounts of Noah and Jesus,I would have liked to have witnessed the events or to read the original texts,but anyway, The point I am making is,Bibically speaking,in the beginning God says I give you every fruit-bearing seed across the whole earth,that shall be yours for food and for the animals and every thing that has the breath of life in it, the plants should be theirs' for food.The reason Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden was because God didn't want them eating from the tree of life,where by, they would live forever in a wrongfull way,so it seems to me,God wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life and live forever in the right way,I think the original plan sounds ideal and thats where people need to look to find out what Gods plan is!as the best place to start anything is at the beginning! vegg > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 i thought it was the tree of knowledge?? different translation?? fraggle The reason Adam and Eve >were kicked out of the garden was because God didn't want them eating >from the tree of life,where by, they would live forever in a >wrongfull way,so it seems to me,God wanted Adam and Eve to eat from >the tree of life and live forever in the right way,I think the >original plan sounds ideal and thats where people need to look to >find out what Gods plan is!as the best place to start anything is at >the beginning! >vegg >> --- >> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 > > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 B " H Well...... Actually, if you check out the text, it mentions the number of animals taken in two places and in one of those places, it says to take 7 pairs each of the " pure " animals (our Rabbis interpret this as meaning those who are fit for eating -- aka kosher) and 1 pair of " impure " (non-kosher) animals. (see Genesis 7:2) But anyway, by the time the eating laws were amended, these animals had had sufficient time to repopulate..... Debbie Hi Jo (taking the chance of getting laughed at for answering you over e- mail!!!) > I often wondered about that. If Noah was given permission to eat, and he took only two animals on board, how come none of them were extinct. Unicorns, Phoenices (I assume that's the plural of Phoenix), Sabre- toothed tigers, Mammoths, etc. Quite a feast if you ask me! BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 They are selfish and don't care about animals that they do not know ,or who are not in their neighbourhood imo Angie creatures,which is in keeping with the Bibles interpretation of what God intended us to eat from the beginnning,why so called christians ignore that or misinterpret it, is a mystery to me.vegg --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 05/06/2002 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 So god wasn't good enough was he !! IMO ------------That is of course , if the original bible writer understood gods wishes , or if no one in the following centuries tampered with the words and meanings ,or if any of it was the word of god and not thought up by ordinary people's imagination The laws of kashrut (kosher) which limits the animals that may be consumed and directs for the most humane (that is a comparitive -- no slaughter is humane but this is the least inhumane) form of slaughter are mostly in Leviticus. In Deutoronomy, there is a verse that says that when the Children of Israel go into the land (Canaan at that point to become Israel) they may eat meat. That verse uses a verb that basically means that you can eat meat if you have such a strong craving that you just can't stand it, well, then you are PERMITTED to eat meat.....) Debbie (think I've studied this stuff at all????? ;-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 So we are more compassionate than Jesus then !!??? Looking at it from a purely theological point of view, I believe it comesfrom the point where God tells Noah that he can eat the flesh of animals.Followed up by the fact that Jesus (an avatar to Christians) quite happilyate fish and lamb.BBPeter --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 05/06/2002 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2002 B " H I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say, but basically, G-d knows what will happen, but permits people to make choices. People have freedom of choice. There are consequences to one's actions, though. You might notice if you check in the Torah (or a reasonable translation thereof) that after Noah, the age at death got progressively lower. The longest life was Noah's grandfather Mesushelah (also known as Methuselah) who lived 959 years. He also died before people ate meat. There are actually a number of things that G-d made concessions to human weakness but made the laws difficult to encourage people to give these things up. This is true about slavery (which has a number of laws attached to it, but this practice has died out in Jewish communities), polygamy (which is permitted, but the Torah goes out of its way to show the problems with polygamy -- polygamy has been phased out in Judaism and is now not permitted by ordinance), and several other things. This includes eating meat -- the laws of kashrut were originally a way of having people experience the death of the animal so as to limit their desires in this area. But nowadays, getting kosher meat is a very sanitized experience. I'm not quite sure if I addressed your concern, but G-d knows all and G-d understands human nature. But there is a lot of evil that people have brought upon them/ourselves. This is where the challenge in being a person lie... and this is where we can grow the most, by choosing good over evil, choosing love over hatred, choosing to eat what G-d originally created for us to eat, not G-d's other creatures. Debbie So god wasn't good enough was he !! IMO ------------That is of course , if the original bible writer understood gods wishes , or if no one in the following centuries tampered with the words and meanings ,or if any of it was the word of god and not thought up by ordinary people's imagination The laws of kashrut (kosher) which limits the animals that may be consumed and directs for the most humane (that is a comparitive -- no slaughter is humane but this is the least inhumane) form of slaughter are mostly in Leviticus. In Deutoronomy, there is a verse that says that when the Children of Israel go into the land (Canaan at that point to become Israel) they may eat meat. That verse uses a verb that basically means that you can eat meat if you have such a strong craving that you just can't stand it, well, then you are PERMITTED to eat meat.....) Debbie (think I've studied this stuff at all????? ;-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 24, 2002 , " compugraphd " <compugraphd@e...> wrote: > B " H > > I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say, but basically, G-d > knows what will happen, I find it interesting that you speak of god as though its existence is a fact. I understand that this is your belief, but it is my belief that god is a fantasy figure that people made up because they don't like the idea that when they die they cease to exist. Simplistic - very, but I've not much time to be less so. However, if I were to post here that I believe that all this is baseless non- fact, I suspect that I would be pilloried. There does not seem to be a right to expression of non-belief. (I would just like to say that having attended a Jewish kindergarten in my formative years and heaving learned (and just as quickly unlearned) to speak Hebrew, I have nothing but respect and affection for Jewish people. Just can't believe in something I can't see and for which there is no actual evidence). Cathy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 24, 2002 Hi Angie > So we are more compassionate than Jesus then !!??? How do you compare? Based on our meat eating habits - maybe. On many other criteria, probably not. Also, considering the time and place Jesus lived, it would have been much harder (although not impossible) to be veggie. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 24, 2002 Hi Debbie > The longest life was Noah's grandfather > Mesushelah (also known as Methuselah) who lived 959 years. I believe that many of the ancient Sumerian kings top that - something along the lines of 10,000 years for many of their reigns. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 24, 2002 Hi Cathy / Debbie > However, if > I were to post here that I believe that all this is baseless non- > fact, I suspect that I would be pilloried. There does not seem to be > a right to expression of non-belief. I suspect you are probably right, but I would hope not. It is interesting, because I tend to curtail stating what my beliefs are concerning the Jewish / Christian god (although I'll happily have a discussion based on historical facts, which is very different) in case I offend Christians / Jews - yet they rarely seem to have the same courtesy for those with other beliefs. So, since the conversation has gone this far, I will express my personal beliefs: I believe that all gods have been created by humanity to give people something to worship - this enables the inventors, and their successors, to represent these gods, and thereby control other humans. I see it as something base purely on a human need for power over others. But at least I accept that this is my belief, and that others differ. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 24, 2002 anyone have any knowledge of a group in thrace who didn't partake in eating meat, in preclassical times?? then of course, you have the lotus eaters fraggle " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: >MessageHi Angie > >> So we are more compassionate than Jesus then !!??? > >How do you compare? Based on our meat eating habits - maybe. On many other criteria, probably not. Also, considering the time and place Jesus lived, it would have been much harder (although not impossible) to be veggie. > >BB >Peter > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 24, 2002 and here is my grea tgreat great grandfather sargon..he certainly in spry fer being 2,000 yrs old, look at him go, and here comes my dear cousin, he runs the city stae of UR, he is a bit senile tho, being 42,000 yrs old..but, he is a darling man...he still can collect heads with the best of em... fraggle " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: >Hi Debbie > >> The longest life was Noah's grandfather >> Mesushelah (also known as Methuselah) who lived 959 years. > >I believe that many of the ancient Sumerian kings top that - something along >the lines of 10,000 years for many of their reigns. > >BB >Peter > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 > > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 24, 2002 , True. vegg " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote: > They are selfish and don't care about animals that they do not know ,or > who are not in their neighbourhood imo > > > Angie > > > > creatures,which is in keeping with the Bibles interpretation of what > God intended us to eat from the beginnning,why so called christians > ignore that or misinterpret it, is a mystery to me. > vegg > --- > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 05/06/2002 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 25, 2002 B " H Ok -- first of all, when I talk about my beliefs, they are that and nothing more -- my beliefs. They are not even always (though on occasion they are) the views of Orthodox Judiasm or even my Rabbi. They are MY beliefs, nothing more and nothing less. I don't really care at all about a person's beliefs... I find them interesting, but it's what they do and who they are that is most important. I truly believe that G-d gave us the Torah for OUR benefit and if you choose to not take advantage of G-d's wisdom, that's your perogative, but I trust G-d. I do think the life I lead is more fulfilling than it would be if I didn't live this way. But I also know that this sort of life isn't for everyone. That's cool. I don't judge people based on their beliefs. I don't judge people (even Jewish people) on whether or not they keep the Torah laws. I think you're missing something, but there are many people who think I'm missing something by not eating meat or never having eaten pork or shellfish (I figure that wouldn't be most of the people on this list ;-) Everyone lives his/her life the way (s)he feels is right for him/her and, as long as (s)he doesn't hurt anyone else, that's fine. BTW, I was just answering someone's question. I didn't bring this subject up. But I have a feeling that I'm probably the only person here (or one of the only people here) who can pull a Hebrew Tanach (Bible) off the shelf and rattle off my own translation of the Torah. Just trying to add to some accuracy here........ Debbie , " compugraphd " <compugraphd@e...> wrote: > B " H > > I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say, but basically, G-d > knows what will happen, I find it interesting that you speak of god as though its existence is a fact. I understand that this is your belief, but it is my belief that god is a fantasy figure that people made up because they don't like the idea that when they die they cease to exist. Simplistic - very, but I've not much time to be less so. However, if I were to post here that I believe that all this is baseless non- fact, I suspect that I would be pilloried. There does not seem to be a right to expression of non-belief. (I would just like to say that having attended a Jewish kindergarten in my formative years and heaving learned (and just as quickly unlearned) to speak Hebrew, I have nothing but respect and affection for Jewish people. Just can't believe in something I can't see and for which there is no actual evidence). Cathy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 25, 2002 B " H You know, I didn't make any comments about any of the Christian stuff since it's not my belief system. I wouldn't make any comments about other beliefs either, since they are also not mine. But it seems to me that some people are taking quite a number of liberties with my beliefs, assuming they know what Judaism is and what it says about this or that. I'm sorry, but I find that offensive. If you have a question about my beliefs, ASK me, don't assume. And, BTW, don't assume that the Jewish G-d and the Christian deity are the same. They are not..... Debbie Hi Cathy / Debbie > However, if > I were to post here that I believe that all this is baseless non- > fact, I suspect that I would be pilloried. There does not seem to be > a right to expression of non-belief. I suspect you are probably right, but I would hope not. It is interesting, because I tend to curtail stating what my beliefs are concerning the Jewish / Christian god (although I'll happily have a discussion based on historical facts, which is very different) in case I offend Christians / Jews - yet they rarely seem to have the same courtesy for those with other beliefs. So, since the conversation has gone this far, I will express my personal beliefs: I believe that all gods have been created by humanity to give people something to worship - this enables the inventors, and their successors, to represent these gods, and thereby control other humans. I see it as something base purely on a human need for power over others. But at least I accept that this is my belief, and that others differ. BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 26, 2002 Hi Debbie > But it seems to > me that some people are taking quite a number of liberties with my > beliefs, assuming they know what Judaism is and what it says about > this or that. I'm sorry, but I find that offensive. As I have been studying the history of religions for about 10 years, and obviously quite a bit of that time has involved study of the history of Judaism - I also run the Ancient Bible History list, which is filled with some very knowledgable people from all religions - I believe that I am probably more qualified to comment on the history of that religion than anyone else on this list. I do not see that, just because you follow that religion, you have any right to stifle debate on how it began or what it has entailed in the past. I guess Cathy was right - it's OK for you to state your beliefs as though they are fact, but it's not acceptable for anyone else to even state their beliefs! BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 26, 2002 Hi Debbie Why should religion be above comment? We say that we disagree with what people eat, and comment on most aspects of behaviour. Religion is an item that would appear to be fair game for discussion, whether on historical fact or belief. In fact we would have been totally unaware of your religion unless you had discussed it on the list. BB Jo > You know, I didn't make any comments about any of the Christian stuff > since it's not my belief system. I wouldn't make any comments about > other beliefs either, since they are also not mine. But it seems to > me that some people are taking quite a number of liberties with my > beliefs, assuming they know what Judaism is and what it says about > this or that. I'm sorry, but I find that offensive. > > If you have a question about my beliefs, ASK me, don't assume. And, > BTW, don't assume that the Jewish G-d and the Christian deity are the > same. They are not..... > > Debbie > > > > > Hi Cathy / Debbie > > > However, if > > I were to post here that I believe that all this is baseless non- > > fact, I suspect that I would be pilloried. There does not seem to > be > > a right to expression of non-belief. > > I suspect you are probably right, but I would hope not. It is > interesting, because I tend to curtail stating what my beliefs are > concerning the Jewish / Christian god (although I'll happily have a > discussion based on historical facts, which is very different) in > case I offend Christians / Jews - yet they rarely seem to have the > same courtesy for those with other beliefs. So, since the > conversation has gone this far, I will express my personal beliefs: > > I believe that all gods have been created by humanity to give people > something to worship - this enables the inventors, and their > successors, to represent these gods, and thereby control other > humans. I see it as something base purely on a human need for power > over others. But at least I accept that this is my belief, and that > others differ. > > BB > Peter > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 26, 2002 as far as i can tell..it sez dominion.... depends on intreptation.. if yer folks go out and leave you in charge of yer little sister...you are given " dominion " over her... doesn't mean you are going to club her over the head and eat her.... fraggle " vegicate1 " <simonpjones wrote: >This is for those that have read or will read Genisis,1-27 through to >chapter 2.It seems to be saying we should be ruling over the Earth >and subduing the creatures and that we should be helping to make sure >that they eat the plants and not each other.Is there anyone else out >there that can see that interpretation as being the correct one? >vegg > > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
