Guest guest Report post Posted November 18, 2001 Jo wrote: > > > > Also, as I have > > > said before, alternative medicines have been used and their effects > noted > > > over many generations. Why is this research different to what you > describe? > > > > Because it's anecdotal, does not use a placebo, et cetera. > > Alternative remedies work on animals - placebo effect doesn't need to be > tested on them. > > Jo > It's still good design to include the process of drug delivery as a control. Of course, you can only use the results in animals if the results of animal tests carry over to humans. From my limited knowledge, sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 19, 2001 Ian > Of course, you can only use the results in animals if the results of > animal tests carry over to humans. From my limited knowledge, sometimes > they do, and sometimes they don't. I wasn't suggesting that what works for animals works for humans, just that you do not need to test the placebo effect on animals. Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 23, 2001 Angie Wright wrote: > > I haven't mentioned it to my Doctor He'll only prescribe an inhaler !! > Angie It wouldn't hurt to have one around, just in case. For the truly unlucky, and asthma attack can prove fatal. -- Ian McDonald http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/alternative.html http://travel.to/startrekcolony - Star Trek: Colony site & .mov http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/who-rpg.html - Dr. Who RPGs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 23, 2001 People vary in whether or not their gut microfauna synthesize B12, how much they need, et cetera. I know I've exhibited symptoms which could be down to B12, and they went away when I took supplements. I know other vegans that have said similar things, that they felt much much more lively after taking B12. So I think one needs to keep an eye on it. I don't worry about Calcium, because I know that I go through enough calcified soya milk and Tahini to be okay. Angie Wright wrote: > > I don't keep an eye on anything I think they like to frighten people > Angie > - > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > But you *do* need to keep an eye on Calcium - and B12, especially B12, > > if you're a vegan. > > -- Ian McDonald http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/alternative.html http://travel.to/startrekcolony - Star Trek: Colony site & .mov http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/who-rpg.html - Dr. Who RPGs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 23, 2001 Angie Wright wrote: > > And when the results are A in the mice , B in the dogs ,C in the cats etc so > who Knows whether we will react the same way as the dogs or mice ??? or > maybe in a 4th way ????? Reporting what I know of scientific culture, I can believe that experiments are re-done more than is needed. The principles of reproducing results, and providing a large sample size, are important to science. On the other hand, I'll respond to the thoughts behind Angie's rhetorical question. Since I know the answer. We don't know, and science would know we don't know. If the experiment is trying to determine some question of basic science, such as how an organism works, the scientist would try to research, read the literature, and try do more experiments to try and discover why the difference was there. Experiments that might or might not involve animal suffering . If the experiment is a drug trial, the drug would probably have been judged to have failed it. BTW, nobody replied to my question about books on animal experimentation. -- Ian McDonald http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/alternative.html http://travel.to/startrekcolony - Star Trek: Colony site & .mov http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/who-rpg.html - Dr. Who RPGs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 23, 2001 Angie > I don't keep an eye on anything I think they like to frighten people I agree. We read from all the Vegan and Vegetarian sources that cow's milk contains a lot of calcium, but because of the high protein content it is in a form that is not easily absorbed - therefore causing an actual loss of calcium from the bones. Then we here 'official' sources saying drink cow's milk, otherwise you will get osteoporosis. Well, it seems to me, that 'official' sources are either incredibly stupid, or are trying to fool us so that we go on buying milk, and giving a profit to the farmers. Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 23, 2001 They use maggots too for cleaning wounds Angie - " Angie Wright " <angiewright Saturday, November 17, 2001 7:59 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > Leeches are good at cleaning wounds > > - >> > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 23, 2001 Using inhalers regularly can also cause problems I won't get one I shall avoid what caused it I've had no problems since Angie - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald Friday, November 23, 2001 8:29 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > I haven't mentioned it to my Doctor He'll only prescribe an inhaler !! > > Angie > > It wouldn't hurt to have one around, just in case. For the truly > unlucky, and asthma attack can prove fatal. > > -- > Ian McDonald > > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/alternative.html > http://travel.to/startrekcolony - Star Trek: Colony site & .mov > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/who-rpg.html - Dr. Who RPGs > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 23, 2001 Slaughter of the innocent Hans ReuschHe did another after this but I forget the name Animal aid would probably mention some on their website - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald Friday, November 23, 2001 8:46 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > And when the results are A in the mice , B in the dogs ,C in the cats etc so > > who Knows whether we will react the same way as the dogs or mice ??? or > > maybe in a 4th way ????? > > Reporting what I know of scientific culture, I can believe that > experiments are re-done more than is needed. The principles of > reproducing results, and providing a large sample size, are important to > science. > > On the other hand, I'll respond to the thoughts behind Angie's > rhetorical question. Since I know the answer. We don't know, and science > would know we don't know. If the experiment is trying to determine some > question of basic science, such as how an organism works, the scientist > would try to research, read the literature, and try do more experiments > to try and discover why the difference was there. Experiments that might > or might not involve animal suffering . If the experiment is a drug > trial, the drug would probably have been judged to have failed it. > > BTW, nobody replied to my question about books on animal > experimentation. > > -- > Ian McDonald > > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/alternative.html > http://travel.to/startrekcolony - Star Trek: Colony site & .mov > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/who-rpg.html - Dr. Who RPGs > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 24, 2001 The 33 year old actress of *Four Weddings and a Funeral* died the other week from a fatal asthma attack. I think Ian's right. Keeping an inhaler handy would be a good idea. Jane x - " Angie Wright " <angiewright Friday, November 23, 2001 10:39 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > Using inhalers regularly can also cause problems > I won't get one I shall avoid what caused it > I've had no problems since Angie > > > - > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > Friday, November 23, 2001 8:29 PM > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > > > I haven't mentioned it to my Doctor He'll only prescribe an inhaler !! > > > Angie > > > > It wouldn't hurt to have one around, just in case. For the truly > > unlucky, and asthma attack can prove fatal. > > > > -- > > Ian McDonald > > > > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/alternative.html > > http://travel.to/startrekcolony - Star Trek: Colony site & .mov > > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/who-rpg.html - Dr. Who RPGs > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 24, 2001 This makes me feel quite ill! ;-) Janey x - " Angie Wright " <angiewright Friday, November 23, 2001 9:59 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > They use maggots too for cleaning wounds Angie > > - > " Angie Wright " <angiewright > > Saturday, November 17, 2001 7:59 PM > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > Leeches are good at cleaning wounds > > > - > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 24, 2001 I don't get asthma now I have read that becoming dependent on inhalers actually makes the condition worse Angie - " Janey " <jane.cuming Saturday, November 24, 2001 6:13 AM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > The 33 year old actress of *Four Weddings and a Funeral* died the other week > from a fatal asthma attack. I think Ian's right. Keeping an inhaler handy > would be a good idea. > > Jane > x > > > - > " Angie Wright " <angiewright > > Friday, November 23, 2001 10:39 PM > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > Using inhalers regularly can also cause problems > > I won't get one I shall avoid what caused it > > I've had no problems since Angie > > > > > > - > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > Friday, November 23, 2001 8:29 PM > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > > > > > I haven't mentioned it to my Doctor He'll only prescribe an inhaler !! > > > > Angie > > > > > > It wouldn't hurt to have one around, just in case. For the truly > > > unlucky, and asthma attack can prove fatal. > > > > > > -- > > > Ian McDonald > > > > > > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/alternative.html > > > http://travel.to/startrekcolony - Star Trek: Colony site & .mov > > > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/who-rpg.html - Dr. Who RPGs > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 24, 2001 Angie Wright wrote: > > I don't get asthma now I have read that becoming dependent on inhalers > actually makes the condition worse Angie > Do you have a source for this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 24, 2001 Janey > The 33 year old actress of *Four Weddings and a Funeral* died the other week > from a fatal asthma attack. I think Ian's right. Keeping an inhaler handy > would be a good idea. I suspect she had her inhaler handy, and had probably used it - they don't always work. Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 24, 2001 Angie > I don't get asthma now I have read that becoming dependent on inhalers > actually makes the condition worse Angie My husband agrees with you. As I said previously - he gets one asthma attack a year. He does use his inhaler, but after a little while, he feels that it is prolonging the attack - and once he stops taking it the attack disappears. Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 24, 2001 No I just remember reading it in a newspaper I think But they keep discovering that drugs used for years have caused harm ,so I avoid using them if I can unlike many of the kids I teach who take paracetamol for any slight headache and other stuff when they have got a cold Angie - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:31 AM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > I don't get asthma now I have read that becoming dependent on inhalers > > actually makes the condition worse Angie > > > > Do you have a source for this? > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 25, 2001 My first post on vegan-chat, please excuse if I don't observe the proprieties! Some say that inhalers do more harm than good. If the attack is because of an allergy the inhalers open the airways thus allowing more of the allergen in. Obviously, not all cases are the same. Some years ago I had a very bad asthmatic attack. My doctor asked how long I'd had asthma (because my reading was so bad). I replied that, as far as I knew, I didn't have asthma. She prescribed inhalers for the current condition with the proviso that if it returned to go straight to casualty (was bad enough for me to have to take a taxi home for what was normally about an 8 minute walk). She also gave me a prescription for a different inhaler to take as a precaution every day and evening. As I wasn't convinced I had asthma I never took the " preventive " . That was about 10 years ago. Presumably, if I'd taken the " preventive " we would have assumed that was why I'd never had another attack. The asthmatic attack I had was purely (IMO) the result of an allergy. I've never used the allergen since (was cleaning out a mouse cage using a pet disinfectant) and not had another attack. Cheers Viv " You'll Never Walk Alone with a Basenji " www.veganvillage.co.uk www.vegansociety.com http://VEGAN-info.com/index.htm Janey [jane.cuming] Saturday, November 24, 2001 6:14 AM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies The 33 year old actress of *Four Weddings and a Funeral* died the other week from a fatal asthma attack. I think Ian's right. Keeping an inhaler handy would be a good idea. Jane x - " Angie Wright " <angiewright Friday, November 23, 2001 10:39 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > Using inhalers regularly can also cause problems > I won't get one I shall avoid what caused it > I've had no problems since Angie > > > - > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > Friday, November 23, 2001 8:29 PM > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > > > I haven't mentioned it to my Doctor He'll only prescribe an inhaler !! > > > Angie > > > > It wouldn't hurt to have one around, just in case. For the truly > > unlucky, and asthma attack can prove fatal. > > > > -- > > Ian McDonald > > > > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/alternative.html > > http://travel.to/startrekcolony - Star Trek: Colony site & .mov > > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/who-rpg.html - Dr. Who RPGs > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 25, 2001 Hi Viv > She also gave me a prescription for a different > inhaler to take as a precaution every day and evening. As I wasn't convinced > I had asthma I never took the " preventive " . That was about 10 years ago. > Presumably, if I'd taken the " preventive " we would have assumed that was why > I'd never had another attack .... and if you had kept on taking the inhaler just think of the amount of chemical in your body that you obviously didn't need. I think you judged well. Obviously there are short periods when people may need inhalers, but I don't like the idea of permanent medication 'just in case'. Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 25, 2001 Exactly I now avoid smokey sooms Angie - " Viv " <Viv Sunday, November 25, 2001 1:53 AM RE: Re: vegan nurse replies > My first post on vegan-chat, please excuse if I don't observe the > proprieties! > > Some say that inhalers do more harm than good. If the attack is because of > an allergy the inhalers open the airways thus allowing more of the allergen > in. Obviously, not all cases are the same. > > Some years ago I had a very bad asthmatic attack. My doctor asked how long > I'd had asthma (because my reading was so bad). I replied that, as far as I > knew, I didn't have asthma. She prescribed inhalers for the current > condition with the proviso that if it returned to go straight to casualty > (was bad enough for me to have to take a taxi home for what was normally > about an 8 minute walk). She also gave me a prescription for a different > inhaler to take as a precaution every day and evening. As I wasn't convinced > I had asthma I never took the " preventive " . That was about 10 years ago. > Presumably, if I'd taken the " preventive " we would have assumed that was why > I'd never had another attack. > The asthmatic attack I had was purely (IMO) the result of an allergy. I've > never used the allergen since (was cleaning out a mouse cage using a pet > disinfectant) and not had another attack. > > > Cheers > > Viv > > " You'll Never Walk Alone with a Basenji " > www.veganvillage.co.uk > www.vegansociety.com > http://VEGAN-info.com/index.htm > > > > Janey [jane.cuming] > Saturday, November 24, 2001 6:14 AM > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > The 33 year old actress of *Four Weddings and a Funeral* died the other week > from a fatal asthma attack. I think Ian's right. Keeping an inhaler handy > would be a good idea. > > Jane > x > > > - > " Angie Wright " <angiewright > > Friday, November 23, 2001 10:39 PM > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > Using inhalers regularly can also cause problems > > I won't get one I shall avoid what caused it > > I've had no problems since Angie > > > > > > - > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > Friday, November 23, 2001 8:29 PM > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > > > > > I haven't mentioned it to my Doctor He'll only prescribe an inhaler !! > > > > Angie > > > > > > It wouldn't hurt to have one around, just in case. For the truly > > > unlucky, and asthma attack can prove fatal. > > > > > > -- > > > Ian McDonald > > > > > > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/alternative.html > > > http://travel.to/startrekcolony - Star Trek: Colony site & .mov > > > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/who-rpg.html - Dr. Who RPGs > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 25, 2001 How mean ! you've both been depriving the pharmacuetical companies from making even more money How could you ?!!!!! - " Jo " <Heartwork Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:05 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > Hi Viv > >As I wasn't > convinced > > I had asthma I never took the " preventive " . That was about 10 years ago. > > Presumably, if I'd taken the " preventive " we would have assumed that was > why > > I'd never had another attack > > ... and if you had kept on taking the inhaler just think of the amount of > chemical in your body that you obviously didn't need. I think you judged > Jo > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
