Guest guest Report post Posted November 16, 2001 Jo wrote: > > Ian > > > You're prejudiced. > > I suppose you could call it that - but I would call it an opinion based on > personal research :-) Angie didn't suggest she'd done any personal research on Ibuprofen. If she had, it would be postjudice, not prejudice . > > Spefically, you are pre-judging that (i) Ibuprofen poisons your system > > at the prescribed levels, (ii) it wouldn't have made you feel better a > > great deal quicker. I'm not prejudging that Angie would feel better a great deal quicker - for all I know, she might have asthma. But she seemed to be assuming that it would not help her, which is prejudice. > Unless you have asthma - it could give you an attack. Of course, you could > then take medicines for your asthma as well as the ibuprofen - mind you it > might upset your stomach - and then you could take some antacids ....... It's good to know what the side-effects are, isn't it? > Jo > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 16, 2001 Jo wrote: > > Ian > > I don't know about all alternative medicines, but use herbs quite readily. > I would much rather use herbs than medicine from a doctor. Whatever you > use, I think you should read up about it fairly extensively, and err on the > side of caution. Personally, I don't take painkillers at all. Like I said, life's too short. But I try to stay informed. > > As an example of the latter, there was a rather dangerous person with > > dodgy credentials who spoke at London Vegans, who claimed that toxins > > (never ever bacteria or viruses) were the cause of all disease, > > I don't think this is necessarily a dangerous viewpoint. In which case I've got this dirty second-hand syringe for you ... > Obviously some > diseases are caused by pollution (tobacco, asbestos, coal dust, lead, etc) Obviously - but she wasn't talking about " some " . > but I can see the sense in the statement. When I visited a naturopathic > nutritionist, he advised me extensively on diet, the idea being to have such > a clean diet that there is a very low level of mucus in the body. He said > that for viruses/bacteria to live they had to have a supply of mucus at a > cellular level. Diet can help keep you fit anyway. The mucus idea sounds pretty silly. Mucus is secreted by the epidermal regions - it has no business living intracellularly. > While following that diet I have not had a cold, or any > other illness. When I had a few small lapses I cought a cold. I am back on > the diet now! Correlation doesn't prove causation. > There have also been clinics where extreme cleansing diets > have been shown to help cancer patients. References? What does " help " mean? Sorry, but one needs to be wary of self-serving evidence. > There has also been some success > with halting arthritis by diet, and as we all know, you can control gout by > omitting foods containing high levels of oxalic acid. I didn't know. But I'm sure I'd learn quickly if I got gout . > I wish my mother had tried altering her diet instead of taking several types > of tablets for her rheumatoid arthritis. She died of cancer, and two of the > tablets have been withdrawn from use. I wonder if there was a connection. > Whether there was or not, the tablets didn't help much. Look up the generic name for her tablets on medline. It wouldn't surprise me if drugs were over-d. > I had a neck problem for thirty years. If I went to the doctor, I was > offered painkillers! which I never accepted. I went to a chiropractic(?) > who did some Bowen therapy, and after five treatments, costing £150, I have > no neck trouble at all. I thought that chiropracters were part of conventional medicine? > > chemotherapy never ever worked, that HIV did not cause AIDS, > > I have always had a hunch that HIV does not cause AIDS - just that they > co-exist, but obviously this is just a feeling. There is a very small minority of scientists that agree with your hunch. Very small. And whereas I wouldn't want that tiny group to stop researching, the overwhelming consensus is that people are dying by the thousand and by the million because people like the London Vegans speaker have managed to convince Thabo Mbeki not to fund retrovirals for HIV+ mothers. And other lethal foolishness. > > but if you > > wanted to find out what foods to eat you should go buy her book and get > > a private consultation. I guess she got an invitation because she > > happened to be vegan. > > but it is still possible that she has helped a lot of people to lead a > healthier life. How? On the basis that even a stopped watch is right twice a day? > Were there any 'normal' doctors there who were willing to talk on veganism? > if indeed they could find one who knew much about it. Where? This was a London Vegans meeting. -- Ian McDonald http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/alternative.html http://travel.to/startrekcolony - Star Trek: Colony site & .mov http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/who-rpg.html - Dr. Who RPGs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 16, 2001 Jo wrote: > > Ian > > > Have you ever heard of epidemiology? (It's the study of patterns of > > disease - which populations get ill, and what it correlates with. The > > aim is to find out the causes.) > > I have heard of it - and they seem to have various groups of researchers > being paid money to research the same subjects over and over again - don't > they trust the conclusions the first half dozen research projects came to? Two answers. Firstly, one way of making sure is having independant groups reproduce each others work in different populations. Secondly, there are usually differences between the precise studies that help throw up exactly what is happening. > > How do we know that tobacco causes cancer? It's because of conventional > > medicine. Traditional medicine told us that smoking was good for you. > > I'm not sure we are talking about the same traditional medicine. I have > never heard that tobacco was supposed to be good for - or of anybody being > 'treated' with tobacco. Can you go into more detail about how conventional > medicine found out that smoking is bad for us? I remember hearing that it was meant to be good for people with chest problems. By the early 1950s, people were noticing that cancer wards filled up with smokers. Studies confirmed the link, but I can't remember exactly what they were. > > And with drugs - many of them derived from herbs - to thin the blood. > > Because they are taken as drugs, and not as herbal remedies, it is much > > easier to control the dose. > > It may be easier to control the dose - but it does have to be adjusted > constantly because it is either too strong or too weak. Maybe it would be > better to take vitamin E, evening primrose oil or some other combination of > 'natural' remedies. If the same amount of publicly funded research was put > into this it might prove to be a better remedy. Why should it be easier to get the right dose of a herbal remedy, which you don't know how much of the active ingredient is in each pill? > > A vessel in the brain blocks or bursts. What's mysterious about that? > > How does conventional medicine treat this? Would it not be better to spend > money on educating people to lower their salt intake, exercise more, lose > weight etc. Yes. Conventional medicine money *is* spent on exactly those things. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. > > Again, I'm staggered. You are saying that precise opposite of the truth. > > Actually trying to work out what works has, since the beginning of the > > twentieth century, been the hallmark of modern medicine, the central > > fact that separates it from alternative medicine. Before then, there > > wasn't any great advantage in going to a medic. > > I think that it's the 'trying' to work out the truth that's the problem. > There is a basic knowledge that is overlooked by the researchers. That's changing. Researchers are methodologically looking at traditional remedies and trying to work out what there is to them. Which is good . > As I said previously, I think for most 'normal' complaints you can't beat > herbs, and a diet that is balanced properly for an individual person is an > excellent way to good health. I have not tried homeopathy, but I know lots > of people who swear by it. For " normal " complaints you're probably not doing yourself much harm. > Do you think there are any good alternative medicines/treatments? - do you > use any? There are bound to be. I sometimes take Valerian for nerves, or tea to help my asthma, settle my stomach, or analgese a mouth ulcer. My GF, who broadly agrees with you, swears by Echinacea for her throat, and honey to make small injuries heal quickly without a scar. > Jo > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 16, 2001 Animal testing proved it didnt cause cancer so why would people give up? - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald Friday, November 16, 2001 6:27 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > > > > >> > Tobacco. Folk wisdom merrily puffed away for centuries - thinking it was > good for you! > >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 so are people who trust medics without question ---and there are far more of them !!!!! Angie - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald Friday, November 16, 2001 7:08 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > If it makes you feel better it works !!!! > > Remember for a couple of paragraphs time that you set that test, and not > one that was about removing the underlying condition. > > > > You're prejudiced. > >> > Do you have proof that vaccinations prevent illnesses ? I'm still waiting > > to get measles/ mumps. so for me nothing worked well enough Angie > > Massive epidemiological studies comparing populations of people with and > without vaccinations. I can't quote studies for every single piece of > modern medicine, but I'm pretty sure I've heard about them. > > In centuries past massive numbers died of childhood disease. In the > developed world, they still do. > > Actually vaccines probably *did* work well enough for Angie - by making > sure that few if any people she met had the virii. > > > - > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:26 PM > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > My problem with " alternative medicine " is that in many cases we don't > > > really know whether it works - or even whether it's safe. Because > > > " alternative medicine " is defined by what it is not, rather than what it > > > is, it covers everything from herbs with pharmacologically active > > > ingredients and holistic ways of helping people with serious illnesses > > > manage their pain through to powdered endangered species and rampant > > > quackery. > > > > > >/D=egroupweb/S=1705129295:HM/A=847665/R=2 " > > > > alt= " " width= " 300 " height= " 250 " > > > > border= " 0 " ></a></td></tr></table></td> > > > > </tr> > > > > <tr><td><img alt= " " width=1 height=1 > > > > > > src= " http://us.adserver./l?M=215002.1711356.3237013.1261774/D=egrou > > pmail/S=1705129295:HM/A=847665/rand=659091103 " ></td></tr> > > > > </table> > > > > > > > > <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> > > > > > > > > <br> > > > > <tt> > > > > To send an email to > > > > - </tt> > > > > <br> > > > > > > > > <br> > > > > <tt> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Jo wrote: > > Ian > > > Which [new research] don't agree with the way [leeches] it was previously used, to make a patient > > better by bleeding them to balance the humours. > > What has it proved - does it do the same thing, just given a different name. > After all we have different names for all the illnesses mentioned in > Culpepper, but it doesn't mean they have changed - just the wording. The names have changed, but the syndromes haven't. The nomenclature of medicine has changed, and so have the explanations of how the body works. We finally have some data, so we know that you can't make someone better by bleeding them. > > I think there's a need here to distinguish between traditional herbal > > remedies, new age fads, and holistic ways of making people feel better. > > You seem to be talking about traditional herbal remedies. > > I wish you would not say 'new age fads' in such a derogatory way. They may > be something you have just not come to understand yet! If there is, it is no credit to the people who promote them without real evidence they work. > > Can you substantiate this? > > I personally cannot remember where I read this, but can you disprove it? I've forgotten what this is about! > > However many millenia it takes to get round to doing one. I don't know > > of any case studies before the late nineteenth century (when some bright > > spark compared death rates and worked out that the best way of > > recovering from pneumonia was bedrest. Now we regard that as common > > sense). > > Do you think it is possible that people were taking bed rest for pneumonia > before their 'doctor' told them it was the right thing to do? Oh yes. Mostly. But it's also possible that their Doctor/wise woman/health practitioner told them to get some nice fresh morning air however little they felt like it. > > Would be that herbal medicines carried the same information. > > There are unfortunate laws on what herbal remedies can and cannot say. They > are not allowed to give any idea of what they could be good for - because > 'modern science' has not yet confirmed it. I agree with those laws, as you can guess, and would support classing herbal remedies that are sold as medicines as medicines, instead of food supplements. > I do agree that all medicines, > should have full ingredient lists on them. Absolutely. And wines. > Jo > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 10/10/01 > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Actually, one of the big publicity stunts that convinced the world it was dangerous involved a pack of beagles, some of whom were made to smoke, and some of whom weren't. In this case, the animal testing appears to have been accurate. Not that the suffering of the beagles was defensible as research - science already knew the damage cancer did. Angie Wright wrote: > > Animal testing proved it didnt cause cancer so why would people give up? > Angie > > - > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > Friday, November 16, 2001 6:27 PM > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Tobacco. Folk wisdom merrily puffed away for centuries - thinking it was > > good for you! > > > >> > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Ibuprofen deadens the pain I could tolerate the pain All drugs cause a strain on the liver Why do that unless desperate for pain relief Angie People can still carry the disease even if vaccinated I got TB from a regularly vaccinated friend Luckily I developed natural immunity which lasts unlike vaccinated immunity which needs boosters . What about the " vegetable " type kids whose developement stops at 6 months of age when they had their jab Cleanliness reduced the killer diseases not vaccinations but the pharmaceutical companies frighten the public into believing they are irrisponsible if they don't vaccinate Because I didn't have the polio jab I wont be carrying the sv 40 virus (simian virus from monkeys in whom the polio jab was cultivated) Perhaps I am prejudiced but this virus causes cancer and we know cancer rates are rising. I'd rather be prejudiced than carry the sv40 virus like most people within 5 years either side of my age The pill was another safe invention yet women died who would have been safer producing a child or saying no! Angie - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald Friday, November 16, 2001 7:08 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > >> > I was prescribed Ibuprofen for a pain in the knee . I did not take it and > > the pain went after 2/3 weeks > > so why did the doctor suggest the drug when nothing (but time ) would also > > work and cost less ! ----and also not " poison " my system ? > > You're prejudiced. > > Spefically, you are pre-judging that (i) Ibuprofen poisons your system > at the prescribed levels, (ii) it wouldn't have made you feel better a > great deal quicker. > > The available evidence - that Ibuprofen dulls pain for most people, has > side effects but is sometimes worth them - suggests that you would > probably (individuals vary) feel better after 2/3 *hours* if you took > Ibuprofen. > > > I have > > no proof that Ibruprofen works since my knee got better with out it ???? > > Do you have proof that vaccinations prevent illnesses ? I'm still waiting > > to get measles/ mumps. so for me nothing worked well enough Angie > > Massive epidemiological studies comparing populations of people with and > without vaccinations. I can't quote studies for every single piece of > modern medicine, but I'm pretty sure I've heard about them. > > In centuries past massive numbers died of childhood disease. In the > developed world, they still do. > > Actually vaccines probably *did* work well enough for Angie - by making > sure that few if any people she met had the virii. > > > - > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:26 PM > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > My problem with " alternative medicine " is that in many cases we don't > > > really know whether it works - or even whether it's safe. Because > > > " alternative medicine " is defined by what it is not, rather than what it > > > is, it covers everything from herbs with pharmacologically active > > > ingredients and holistic ways of helping people with serious illnesses > > > manage their pain through to powdered endangered species and rampant > > > quackery. > > > > > >/D=egroupweb/S=1705129295:HM/A=847665/R=2 " > > > > alt= " " width= " 300 " height= " 250 " > > > > border= " 0 " ></a></td></tr></table></td> > > > > </tr> > > > > <tr><td><img alt= " " width=1 height=1 > > > > > > src= " http://us.adserver./l?M=215002.1711356.3237013.1261774/D=egrou > > pmail/S=1705129295:HM/A=847665/rand=659091103 " ></td></tr> > > > > </table> > > > > > > > > <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> > > > > > > > > <br> > > > > <tt> > > > > To send an email to > > > > - </tt> > > > > <br> > > > > > > > > <br> > > > > <tt> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Is elderflower good for colds ? I,m susceptical to colds (It doesn't help having no tonsils/adenoids-the first line of defence . They were removed when I was a child because I was susceptical to colds!!!!! It was the fashion then and I was too young to argue !!) Angie - " Jo " <Heartwork Friday, November 16, 2001 9:34 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > take commercial antacids if peppermint tea works, tranquilisers if chamomile > or limeblossom tea helps, cold remedies if elderflower tea works - and if > you don't like the taste of tea you can use tincture. > > ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 I had natural immunity to tb Caught it from my frequently vaccinated friend who was obviously a carrier we used to sleep in the same room at each others house Angie - " Jo " <Heartwork Friday, November 16, 2001 10:12 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > Angie > > > Do you have proof that vaccinations prevent illnesses ? I'm still waiting > > to get measles/ mumps. so for me nothing worked well enough Angie > > When a TB vaccine was introduced I didn't have it for some reason I can't > remember (I was fairly young). Now I understand that they don't last > anyway - so what is the point of putting some foreign substance in your body > for very limited protection? I read somewhere that the decline of TB was > due more to good diet and lifestyle than to medicines. > > Jo > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 They'll fiddle the results --I think many scientists do that to get the response that the pharmaceutical companies want Thats why sometimes they prove the opposite to previous results I would never trust vivisectionists in the same way that i wouldn't feel safe with a rapist -- Both lack moral fibre and their word would not be their bond !!! Vegans on the other hand I would assume to be basically honest Is this last statement true ? - " Jo " <Heartwork Friday, November 16, 2001 10:14 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > Angie > > > I don't see how you can find cures when the experiments are flawed they > > are not fair ---too many variables being altered at once instead of one at > a > > time. eg wrong species and artificially induced disease injecting > > chemicals into a dog's joints to make them swell doesn't make it human > > arthritis ! Angie > > I see the EU is going ahead with new toxicology tests - another 50 million > animals are going to suffer :-( > > Jo > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Vivisection delayed the modern accepted view that smoking Kills The smoking companies got the evidence that they wanted that it was safe by deliberately looking at the wrong species !! May they rot in hell for killing 1,000's of animals in order to lie to human beings who were gullible enough to believe the bastards!!! My Dad sufferred in the last 6th months of his life from damaged lungs due to smoking and heart problems( smoking related). I just hope that those responsible suffer similarly . Then maybe they will consider what they have spent their lives doing Angie - " Jo " <Heartwork Friday, November 16, 2001 10:35 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > Ian > > > Have you ever heard of epidemiology? (It's the study of patterns of > > disease - which populations get ill, and what it correlates with. The > > aim is to find out the causes.) > > I have heard of it - and they seem to have various groups of researchers > being paid money to research the same subjects over and over again - don't > they trust the conclusions the first half dozen research projects came to? > > > > How do we know that tobacco causes cancer? It's because of conventional > > medicine. Traditional medicine told us that smoking was good for you. > > I'm not sure we are talking about the same traditional medicine. I have > never heard that tobacco was supposed to be good for - or of anybody being > 'treated' with tobacco. Can you go into more detail about how conventional > medicine found out that smoking is bad for us? > > > And with drugs - many of them derived from herbs - to thin the blood. > > Because they are taken as drugs, and not as herbal remedies, it is much > > easier to control the dose. > > It may be easier to control the dose - but it does have to be adjusted > constantly because it is either too strong or too weak. Maybe it would be > better to take vitamin E, evening primrose oil or some other combination of > 'natural' remedies. If the same amount of publicly funded research was put > into this it might prove to be a better remedy. > > > A vessel in the brain blocks or bursts. What's mysterious about that? > > How does conventional medicine treat this? Would it not be better to spend > money on educating people to lower their salt intake, exercise more, lose > weight etc. > > > Again, I'm staggered. You are saying that precise opposite of the truth. > > Actually trying to work out what works has, since the beginning of the > > twentieth century, been the hallmark of modern medicine, the central > > fact that separates it from alternative medicine. Before then, there > > wasn't any great advantage in going to a medic. > > I think that it's the 'trying' to work out the truth that's the problem. > There is a basic knowledge that is overlooked by the researchers. > > As I said previously, I think for most 'normal' complaints you can't beat > herbs, and a diet that is balanced properly for an individual person is an > excellent way to good health. I have not tried homeopathy, but I know lots > of people who swear by it. > > Do you think there are any good alternative medicines/treatments? - do you > use any? > > Jo > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 I got asthma once now I don't do what caused it Angie - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald Friday, November 16, 2001 11:31 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > Jo wrote: > > > > Ian > > > > > You're prejudiced. > > > > I suppose you could call it that - but I would call it an opinion based on > > personal research :-) > > Angie didn't suggest she'd done any personal research on Ibuprofen. If > she had, it would be postjudice, not prejudice . > > > > Spefically, you are pre-judging that (i) Ibuprofen poisons your system > > > at the prescribed levels, (ii) it wouldn't have made you feel better a > > > great deal quicker. > > I'm not prejudging that Angie would feel better a great deal quicker - > for all I know, she might have asthma. But she seemed to be assuming > that it would not help her, which is prejudice. > > > Unless you have asthma - it could give you an attack. Of course, you could > > then take medicines for your asthma as well as the ibuprofen - mind you it > > might upset your stomach - and then you could take some antacids ....... > > It's good to know what the side-effects are, isn't it? > > > Jo > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 If I'd taken the Ibruprofen how would I know whether I was better sooner or not cos I wouldn't have known the results of not taking it ! The way I did it I got better anyway (not life threatening) and saved myself £5 and felt that I wasn't putting a strain on my liver Angie - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald Friday, November 16, 2001 11:31 PM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > Jo wrote: > > > > Ian > > > > > You're prejudiced. > > > > I suppose you could call it that - but I would call it an opinion based on > > personal research :-) > > Angie didn't suggest she'd done any personal research on Ibuprofen. If > she had, it would be postjudice, not prejudice . > > > > Spefically, you are pre-judging that (i) Ibuprofen poisons your system > > > at the prescribed levels, (ii) it wouldn't have made you feel better a > > > great deal quicker. > > I'm not prejudging that Angie would feel better a great deal quicker - > for all I know, she might have asthma. But she seemed to be assuming > that it would not help her, which is prejudice. > > > Unless you have asthma - it could give you an attack. Of course, you could > > then take medicines for your asthma as well as the ibuprofen - mind you it > > might upset your stomach - and then you could take some antacids ....... > > It's good to know what the side-effects are, isn't it? > > > Jo > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 I've read that the beagles didn't get cancer Angie - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald Saturday, November 17, 2001 12:10 AM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > Actually, one of the big publicity stunts that convinced the world it > was dangerous involved a pack of beagles, some of whom were made to > smoke, and some of whom weren't. > > In this case, the animal testing appears to have been accurate. > > Not that the suffering of the beagles was defensible as research - > science already knew the damage cancer did. > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > Animal testing proved it didnt cause cancer so why would people give up? > > Angie > > > > - > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > Friday, November 16, 2001 6:27 PM > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Tobacco. Folk wisdom merrily puffed away for centuries - thinking it was > > > good for you! > > > > > >> > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Where? Angie Wright wrote: > > I've read that the beagles didn't get cancer Angie > > - > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > Saturday, November 17, 2001 12:10 AM > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > Actually, one of the big publicity stunts that convinced the world it > > was dangerous involved a pack of beagles, some of whom were made to > > smoke, and some of whom weren't. > > > > In this case, the animal testing appears to have been accurate. > > > > Not that the suffering of the beagles was defensible as research - > > science already knew the damage cancer did. > > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > > > Animal testing proved it didnt cause cancer so why would people give up? > > > Angie > > > > > > - > > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > > > Friday, November 16, 2001 6:27 PM > > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Tobacco. Folk wisdom merrily puffed away for centuries - thinking it > was > > > > good for you! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Where have you read that they did ? Animal Aid literature ?Talk last week end by Ann Harriman - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald Saturday, November 17, 2001 1:38 AM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > Where? > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > I've read that the beagles didn't get cancer Angie > > > > - > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > Saturday, November 17, 2001 12:10 AM > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > Actually, one of the big publicity stunts that convinced the world it > > > was dangerous involved a pack of beagles, some of whom were made to > > > smoke, and some of whom weren't. > > > > > > In this case, the animal testing appears to have been accurate. > > > > > > Not that the suffering of the beagles was defensible as research - > > > science already knew the damage cancer did. > > > > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > > > > > Animal testing proved it didnt cause cancer so why would people give up? > > > > Angie > > > > > > > > - > > > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > > > > > Friday, November 16, 2001 6:27 PM > > > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Tobacco. Folk wisdom merrily puffed away for centuries - thinking it > > was > > > > > good for you! > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Economist obituary of the guy that did the PR stunt with the beagles. Angie Wright wrote: > > Where have you read that they did ? > Animal Aid literature ?Talk last week end by Ann Harriman > Angie > > - > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > Saturday, November 17, 2001 1:38 AM > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > Where? > > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > > > I've read that the beagles didn't get cancer Angie > > > > > > - > > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > > > Saturday, November 17, 2001 12:10 AM > > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > > > Actually, one of the big publicity stunts that convinced the world it > > > > was dangerous involved a pack of beagles, some of whom were made to > > > > smoke, and some of whom weren't. > > > > > > > > In this case, the animal testing appears to have been accurate. > > > > > > > > Not that the suffering of the beagles was defensible as research - > > > > science already knew the damage cancer did. > > > > > > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Animal testing proved it didnt cause cancer so why would people give > up? > > > > > Angie > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 16, 2001 6:27 PM > > > > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Tobacco. Folk wisdom merrily puffed away for centuries - thinking > it > > > was > > > > > > good for you! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to > - > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 What PR stunt ? What guy ? I think I'm giong to bed now I'm too old for staying up so late !!! Angie Night ! - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald Saturday, November 17, 2001 1:48 AM Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > Economist obituary of the guy that did the PR stunt with the beagles. > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > Where have you read that they did ? > > Animal Aid literature ?Talk last week end by Ann Harriman > > Angie > > > > - > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > Saturday, November 17, 2001 1:38 AM > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > Where? > > > > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > > > > > I've read that the beagles didn't get cancer Angie > > > > > > > > - > > > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > > > > > Saturday, November 17, 2001 12:10 AM > > > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > > > > > Actually, one of the big publicity stunts that convinced the world it > > > > > was dangerous involved a pack of beagles, some of whom were made to > > > > > smoke, and some of whom weren't. > > > > > > > > > > In this case, the animal testing appears to have been accurate. > > > > > > > > > > Not that the suffering of the beagles was defensible as research - > > > > > science already knew the damage cancer did. > > > > > > > > > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Animal testing proved it didnt cause cancer so why would people give > > up? > > > > > > Angie > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian.mcdonald > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 16, 2001 6:27 PM > > > > > > Re: Re: vegan nurse replies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Tobacco. Folk wisdom merrily puffed away for centuries - thinking > > it > > > > was > > > > > > > good for you! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Ian > What evidence did the health book go on? I think you called it epideamiology(sp?) - taking note of lots of case histories. > True. Of course, you don't actually know whether you recovered because > of the remedy or despite it, unless you've tried to get better in a few > times, some with and some without the remedy, and managed to keep other > stuff constant, and controlled for the placebo effect. But what makes you think that this sort of basic research is limited to 'established' medicine. What do you think the alternative healers do? > Yes ... but life is too short to replicate all the epidemiological work, > case studies, and theories about how it all works. But the effects of various herbs have been noted over hundreds of years, and many generations. > IMHO, you can be more > confident of someone's claim if they have to say exactly how they > arrived at the results, get experts in the field to check their > workings, and publish it so that other people can repeat the work and > see if they arrive at the same results. You can be much more confident > if the other people *do* reproduce it. To a certain extent, but it doesn't need to be researched constantly by different universities and medical research bodies using up money that could be spent educating people on how to stay healthy instead. Also, as I have said before, alternative medicines have been used and their effects noted over many generations. Why is this research different to what you describe? We all know how medical research repeats animal experiments again and again and again when they have already proved the effects on those animals. Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Ian > I'm not prejudging that Angie would feel better a great deal quicker - > for all I know, she might have asthma. But she seemed to be assuming > that it would not help her, which is prejudice. Well, everyone has their opinion, which I suppose could be described as prejudice. If not wanting to take a poisonous substance is a prejudice, then I would support Angie's right to that prejudice. Are you suggesting that we should take the word of the medical establishment without questioning it, and if that is the case, why don't we take the word of the Government without questioning it, and drink plenty of cow's milk because they tell us it is good for us? Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Ian > > > > I don't think this is necessarily a dangerous viewpoint. > > In which case I've got this dirty second-hand syringe for you ... I didn't say that I had attained a completely mucus-free body. The theory can still be correct. Do you think that people should not offer good advice, just because not many people are willing to follow it. Besides which I don't think that anyone following a cleansing diet would be likely to use any sort of syringe - that's for people who don't care what they do to their bodies. > > Obviously some > > diseases are caused by pollution (tobacco, asbestos, coal dust, lead, etc) > > Obviously - but she wasn't talking about " some " . Did she mention that she included asebstos, coal dust etc. or did she say she was not - or did she not mention them, and you came to your own conclusion. > Diet can help keep you fit anyway. The mucus idea sounds pretty silly. > Mucus is secreted by the epidermal regions - it has no business living > intracellularly. So how do you suggest the success of the regime comes about? > > > While following that diet I have not had a cold, or any > > other illness. When I had a few small lapses I cought a cold. I am back on > > the diet now! What about the epideamiological studies to which you referred when talking about established medicine? > > Correlation doesn't prove causation. > > > There have also been clinics where extreme cleansing diets > > have been shown to help cancer patients. > > References? What does " help " mean? Sorry, but one needs to be wary of > self-serving evidence. It has been reported that some patients who had been through all the chemotherapy and not been cleared of cancer had their cancer clear when adhering to cleansing diets. A cleansing diet, after all, just puts the body in a good position to heal itself. > > There has also been some success > > with halting arthritis by diet, and as we all know, you can control gout by > > omitting foods containing high levels of oxalic acid. > > I didn't know. But I'm sure I'd learn quickly if I got gout . Well if you do, avoid tomatoes, rhubarb etc. > Look up the generic name for her tablets on medline. It wouldn't > surprise me if drugs were over-d. Yes, I agree. Unfortunately it was 1973, and I cannot now remember the names of the drugs. > I thought that chiropracters were part of conventional medicine? It may well be, but I don't think the Bowen therapy is though - it just happens to be practiced by a chiroprator who is interested in alternative therapies. > There is a very small minority of scientists that agree with your hunch. > Very small. And whereas I wouldn't want that tiny group to stop > researching, the overwhelming consensus is that people are dying by the > thousand and by the million because people like the London Vegans > speaker have managed to convince Thabo Mbeki not to fund retrovirals for > HIV+ mothers. And other lethal foolishness. I think with illnesses that are severe, and terminal, conventional medicine should be supplied, because, as you say there is not enough time to research and prove alternative methods, if they exist. But I think that there is a place for alternative medicine, to help people get and keep healthy, and maybe that way avoid getting the serious illnesses. > How? On the basis that even a stopped watch is right twice a day? But the fact that this woman is wrong is just a personal opinion. It is entirely possible that she may well be proved correct in 20 or 50 years time. Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Ian > Two answers. Firstly, one way of making sure is having independant > groups reproduce each others work in different populations. Secondly, > there are usually differences between the precise studies that help > throw up exactly what is happening. I often feel that they don't study enough differences when doing research. > I remember hearing that it was meant to be good for people with chest > problems. > > By the early 1950s, people were noticing that cancer wards filled up > with smokers. Studies confirmed the link, but I can't remember exactly > what they were. Did lung cancer occur within thirty years of tobacco being introduced to the population? or was there an 'epidemic' starting int eh 1950s? > Why should it be easier to get the right dose of a herbal remedy, which > you don't know how much of the active ingredient is in each pill? With the herbs that are in common use, usually the herb is in it's total state - not as in established medicine, where only parts of the herb are used, and then in larger quantities than would have been in the herb. > Yes. Conventional medicine money *is* spent on exactly those things. You > can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. In that case, why isn't some of the money spent on informing people that, say, elderflower and lemon tea, is a good cold remedy, and a great deal safer than something like Lemsip. After all, how many people take Lemsip and paracetamol at the same time. > That's changing. Researchers are methodologically looking at traditional > remedies and trying to work out what there is to them. Which is good . It is good, but it doesn't change the fact that some people already know what there is to them. > For " normal " complaints you're probably not doing yourself much harm. Far less harm than taking paracetamol, aspirin, ibuprofen. Even a simple antacid can stop you absorbing the vitamins and minerals in your diet for up to two hours - how many people take those? > > Do you think there are any good alternative medicines/treatments? - do you > > use any? > > There are bound to be. I sometimes take Valerian for nerves, or tea to > help my asthma, settle my stomach, or analgese a mouth ulcer. My GF, who > broadly agrees with you, swears by Echinacea for her throat, and honey > to make small injuries heal quickly without a scar. I find valerian a bit strong for me, but use chamomile, if necessary. Do you know if you maple syrup has some/or all of the healing properties of honey? Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Ian > Could you give an example please? Probably not - I'm not an alternative health practitioner. But if I think of one, I will let you know. The vegan diet is not accepted as a particularly good thing by established medicine (hence the warnings about going short on calcium/protein etc), and it is difficult to meet a GP or Health Visitor who can give any advice about it. Now most alternative practitioners know that a vegan diet is highly likely to keep you healthy. Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2001 Ian > We finally have some data, so we know that you can't make someone better > by bleeding them. I would be surprised if using leeches does help - but why are some hospitals using them now? > If there is, it is no credit to the people who promote them without real > evidence they work. This is just another way of saying that people should conform to the way you see the world. (which is something we all tend to do, so it's not an insult). > > > Can you substantiate this? > > > > I personally cannot remember where I read this, but can you disprove it? > > I've forgotten what this is about! LOL - me too :-) > Oh yes. Mostly. But it's also possible that their Doctor/wise > woman/health practitioner told them to get some nice fresh morning air > however little they felt like it. Maybe they advised both. When I was almost two I had pneumonia, after whooping cough, and was in hospital for five weeks. I can remember the bedrest, and also sitting in bed, wrapped up in blankets, by the wide open window watching a robin playing in the snow. Maybe this was traditional wisdom, still used. Incidentally, I always found that if I had a cough, it was far less likely to annoy me if the air was cold. > I agree with those laws, as you can guess, and would support classing > herbal remedies that are sold as medicines as medicines, instead of food > supplements. This would take away a person's right to treat themselves with their preferred remedies. I do not know the figures, but I am sure that more people die through using prescribed medicines than through using food supplements and herbal remedies. Don't forget that if a law is passed making it impossible to use these remedies it just means more animal testing, and more profit for the large pharmacuetical comanies. It would not be an improvement for the population, IMO. > Absolutely. And wines. Definitely, even though I do not drink them. Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
