RE: Do vivisectors deserve all they get? Discuss.

[Guest guest]

> Angie Wright[sMTP:angiewright]

> I think we shouldn't criticise our own ', and we should all do what we

> can

> I think we should attack on all fronts

>

> As to the comment " we are no better than those we are attacking " I don't

> care if people think I am no better---This is not a popularity contest

> !!!

> whatever it takes to close HLS is OK by me

>

>

Hi all - very brief introduction because from what I've seen of this list so

far, most of you already know me. Cathy, 44, vegan 2 years, haven't eaten

meat for 18/19 years, mostly harmless.

 

Now, about what Angie said - YES! I reproduce below (because I'm too lazy

to say it all again) what I sent to the PlanetVegan list when someone

declared that they were leaving the AR movement becuase of how NASTY we are

to other people and how that HAS to be wrong. Speciesist say I. Frankly if

the animal abusers were only doing to animals what we are doing to them, I

would have no problem with complaining through the proper channels and

hoping that eventually someone might listen. But all the time we're

pussyfooting animals are dying horrible, terrifying, agonising deaths. And

we worry about someone's personal privacy? Priorities askew or what!

 

Having said all that, obviously the movement as a whole is well divided over

this, most of the dissent I have heard comes from across the Atlantic. In

fact one person has left PlanetVegan after reading my email, " taking my

morals with me " , which I regard as frankly ridiculous. Thus far no-one else

on there has commented. Anyway, here's what I said (if anyone wants to know

what the dissenter said back, shout and I'll post it here in the interests

of balance):

 

I'm sorry that someone who cares about animals feels it necessary to remove

themselves from the AR movement, but respect your decision. We all draw the

lines at the point where we start to feel uncomfortable. However. To

protest loudly but without violence at someone's house is indeed

harrassment. But where that person makes a living from the suffering of

animals, I fail to see how that harrassment is unjustified. If I were to

visit an HLS worker's house, open his door, take his baby away from his

wife, ignoring her screams of distress and the baby's screams of fear, push

a pipe down the baby's throat, pour toxic substances down that pipe, take

notes over a couple of days of the baby's symptoms and signs of suffering,

then kill the baby (or maybe *nearly* kill it, so that it wakes up on the

autopsy table as it is being slit from throat to groin), remove and examine

its internal organs - all this for a healthy paypacket, well, my friend, you

would have cause to criticise me. For that is what these pepole do, and

until the day that EXACTLY what they do to others is done back to them, as

far as I am concerned they have no reason to complain.

How can anyone who cares defend an animal abuser's right to a peaceful home

life, knowing what they do? People have been campaigning and petitioning

against vivisection for a hundred years without noticeable success - until

the fight became personal. I guess what I want to say boils down to this:

nothing that any AR person has ever done to an animal abuser even comes

close to what that animal abuser does EVERY DAY at work. What is more

important - thousand's of animals' suffering, or a few people having their

houses shouted at?

 

 

Cheers!

Cathy

[Guest guest]

So well expressed Cathy --Well done

 

I always think we should go as far as our conscience allows,and it will be

differnt for all of us for many different reasons I wish I had the guts to

do more but I;m proud of those who do and would never criticise -even if I

didn't agree as it weakens the movement's resolve

 

I think those on the US lists are frightened of being thrown off so toe the

lie

probably the lists are controlled there by authorities who are pro

vivisection. they certainly dont have freedom of speech and if you can't

have that all you can discuss is food .I regard cooking as a chore that I

will avoid If I can !!!

This is why I will not join any US lists ---no one can say what they realy

want and it is suppressed under the gyuise of causing offence--are people

such wimps ? they need to read AR literature!!!!!

Have thes people who criticise actually been on demos outside offices etc

Probably not they are probably believing what they read in the media

but that is biased too Jouralists want to keep their jobs

As a teacher I'm not allowed to say what I Know I have to stick to my

subject

Parents don't want their kids to Know the truth about say factory farming

and they love to complain Angie

 

 

-

" Cathy Jupp (BR) " <cjbr

 

Tuesday, July 31, 2001 8:27 AM

RE: Do vivisectors deserve all they get? Discuss.

 

 

> > Angie Wright[sMTP:angiewright]

> > I think we shouldn't criticise our own ', and we should all do what we

> > can

> > I think we should attack on all fronts

> >

> > As to the comment " we are no better than those we are attacking " I

don't

> > care if people think I am no better---This is not a popularity contest

> > !!!

> > whatever it takes to close HLS is OK by me

> >

> >

> Hi all - very brief introduction because from what I've seen of this list

so

> far, most of you already know me. Cathy, 44, vegan 2 years, haven't eaten

> meat for 18/19 years, mostly harmless.

>

> Now, about what Angie said - YES! I reproduce below (because I'm too lazy

> to say it all again) what I sent to the PlanetVegan list when someone

> declared that they were leaving the AR movement becuase of how NASTY we

are

> to other people and how that HAS to be wrong. Speciesist say I. Frankly

if

> the animal abusers were only doing to animals what we are doing to them, I

> would have no problem with complaining through the proper channels and

> hoping that eventually someone might listen. But all the time we're

> pussyfooting animals are dying horrible, terrifying, agonising deaths.

And

> we worry about someone's personal privacy? Priorities askew or what!

>

> Having said all that, obviously the movement as a whole is well divided

over

> this, most of the dissent I have heard comes from across the Atlantic. In

> fact one person has left PlanetVegan after reading my email, " taking my

> morals with me " , which I regard as frankly ridiculous. Thus far no-one

else

> on there has commented. Anyway, here's what I said (if anyone wants to

know

> what the dissenter said back, shout and I'll post it here in the interests

> of balance):

>

> I'm sorry that someone who cares about animals feels it necessary to

remove

> themselves from the AR movement, but respect your decision. We all draw

the

> lines at the point where we start to feel uncomfortable. However. To

> protest loudly but without violence at someone's house is indeed

> harrassment. But where that person makes a living from the suffering of

> animals, I fail to see how that harrassment is unjustified. If I were to

> visit an HLS worker's house, open his door, take his baby away from his

> wife, ignoring her screams of distress and the baby's screams of fear,

push

> a pipe down the baby's throat, pour toxic substances down that pipe, take

> notes over a couple of days of the baby's symptoms and signs of suffering,

> then kill the baby (or maybe *nearly* kill it, so that it wakes up on the

> autopsy table as it is being slit from throat to groin), remove and

examine

> its internal organs - all this for a healthy paypacket, well, my friend,

you

> would have cause to criticise me. For that is what these pepole do, and

> until the day that EXACTLY what they do to others is done back to them, as

> far as I am concerned they have no reason to complain.

> How can anyone who cares defend an animal abuser's right to a peaceful

home

> life, knowing what they do? People have been campaigning and petitioning

> against vivisection for a hundred years without noticeable success - until

> the fight became personal. I guess what I want to say boils down to this:

> nothing that any AR person has ever done to an animal abuser even comes

> close to what that animal abuser does EVERY DAY at work. What is more

> important - thousand's of animals' suffering, or a few people having their

> houses shouted at?

>

>

> Cheers!

> Cathy

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

just one quick tiny itsy bitsy comment...as fer angie saying , " don't criticize

our own " ...please....criticize me!!! critique me...question me!!!!

i am not infalliable...i have opinions just like anyone else, and bacchus knows,

i question them and my values, thoughts, actions, every bleedin minute!!!!

it's good to question!!!

just don't be tooo harsh...i bruise easily, and i cry like a 2 yr old

teehee

know wot ya kids mean tho

cheers

fraggle

 

 

" Cathy Jupp (BR) " <cjbr wrote:

 

>> Angie Wright[sMTP:angiewright]

>> I think we shouldn't criticise our own ', and we should all do what we

>> can

>> I think we should attack on all fronts

>>

>> As to the comment " we are no better than those we are attacking " I don't

>> care if people think I am no better---This is not a popularity contest

>> !!!

>> whatever it takes to close HLS is OK by me

>>

>>

>Hi all - very brief introduction because from what I've seen of this list so

>far, most of you already know me. Cathy, 44, vegan 2 years, haven't eaten

>meat for 18/19 years, mostly harmless.

>

>Now, about what Angie said - YES! I reproduce below (because I'm too lazy

>to say it all again) what I sent to the PlanetVegan list when someone

>declared that they were leaving the AR movement becuase of how NASTY we are

>to other people and how that HAS to be wrong. Speciesist say I. Frankly if

>the animal abusers were only doing to animals what we are doing to them, I

>would have no problem with complaining through the proper channels and

>hoping that eventually someone might listen. But all the time we're

>pussyfooting animals are dying horrible, terrifying, agonising deaths. And

>we worry about someone's personal privacy? Priorities askew or what!

>

>Having said all that, obviously the movement as a whole is well divided over

>this, most of the dissent I have heard comes from across the Atlantic. In

>fact one person has left PlanetVegan after reading my email, " taking my

>morals with me " , which I regard as frankly ridiculous. Thus far no-one else

>on there has commented. Anyway, here's what I said (if anyone wants to know

>what the dissenter said back, shout and I'll post it here in the interests

>of balance):

>

>I'm sorry that someone who cares about animals feels it necessary to remove

>themselves from the AR movement, but respect your decision. We all draw the

>lines at the point where we start to feel uncomfortable. However. To

>protest loudly but without violence at someone's house is indeed

>harrassment. But where that person makes a living from the suffering of

>animals, I fail to see how that harrassment is unjustified. If I were to

>visit an HLS worker's house, open his door, take his baby away from his

>wife, ignoring her screams of distress and the baby's screams of fear, push

>a pipe down the baby's throat, pour toxic substances down that pipe, take

>notes over a couple of days of the baby's symptoms and signs of suffering,

>then kill the baby (or maybe *nearly* kill it, so that it wakes up on the

>autopsy table as it is being slit from throat to groin), remove and examine

>its internal organs - all this for a healthy paypacket, well, my friend, you

>would have cause to criticise me. For that is what these pepole do, and

>until the day that EXACTLY what they do to others is done back to them, as

>far as I am concerned they have no reason to complain.

>How can anyone who cares defend an animal abuser's right to a peaceful home

>life, knowing what they do? People have been campaigning and petitioning

>against vivisection for a hundred years without noticeable success - until

>the fight became personal. I guess what I want to say boils down to this:

>nothing that any AR person has ever done to an animal abuser even comes

>close to what that animal abuser does EVERY DAY at work. What is more

>important - thousand's of animals' suffering, or a few people having their

>houses shouted at?

>

>

>Cheers!

>Cathy

>

>

>To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Angie / Cathy / Fraggle

 

> I always think we should go as far as our conscience allows,and it will be

> differnt for all of us for many different reasons I wish I had the guts to

> do more but I;m proud of those who do and would never criticise -even if I

> didn't agree as it weakens the movement's resolve

 

I think this opens up the age old question - do the ends justify the means?

To my mind, I don't see that physically harming a human in these

circumstances helps an animal. Embarrassing the " big bosses " of the

companies, and putting pressure on the people who can make a difference is

certainly worthwhile. I'm afraid I just don't see the advantage of attacking

the workers - what does it achieve? What I want to do is stop vivisection

(or as much of it as I possibly can) - and will put my energies into what

can best achieve that. To attack the workers seems to be a bit like the old

Robin Hood episodes where they kill off hundreds of ordinary soldiers, but

let the Sherriff of Nottingham go every time they capture him!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

well, duh silly

if he got rid of the sheriff, then robin would be out of a job

teehee

fraggle

 

" Peter Kebbell " <Snowbow wrote:

 

>Hi Angie / Cathy / Fraggle

>

>> I always think we should go as far as our conscience allows,and it will be

>> differnt for all of us for many different reasons I wish I had the guts to

>> do more but I;m proud of those who do and would never criticise -even if I

>> didn't agree as it weakens the movement's resolve

>

>I think this opens up the age old question - do the ends justify the means?

>To my mind, I don't see that physically harming a human in these

>circumstances helps an animal. Embarrassing the " big bosses " of the

>companies, and putting pressure on the people who can make a difference is

>certainly worthwhile. I'm afraid I just don't see the advantage of attacking

>the workers - what does it achieve? What I want to do is stop vivisection

>(or as much of it as I possibly can) - and will put my energies into what

>can best achieve that. To attack the workers seems to be a bit like the old

>Robin Hood episodes where they kill off hundreds of ordinary soldiers, but

>let the Sherriff of Nottingham go every time they capture him!

>

>BB

>Peter

>

>

>

>To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Fraggle

 

> just don't be tooo harsh...i bruise easily, and i cry like a 2 yr old

> teehee

 

How are your bruises now? Better, I hope. Was your bike damaged much?

(Scuse me being nosey!)

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

Criticising can weaken the morale of a group--- thats what worries me I

have found that those who criticise don't do anything themselves ,--so all

they do is weaken the other persons resolve and confidence

We need to believe in ourselves and our group, if we are to win the fight

 

However --for you fraggle---ANYTHING-------and I can be really gentle!!!!

 

-

<EBbrewpunx

 

Tuesday, July 31, 2001 3:22 PM

RE: RE: Do vivisectors deserve all they get? Discuss.

 

 

> just one quick tiny itsy bitsy comment...as fer angie saying , " don't

criticize our own " ...please....criticize me!!! critique me...question me!!!!

> i am not infalliable...i have opinions just like anyone else, and bacchus

knows, i question them and my values, thoughts, actions, every bleedin

minute!!!!

> it's good to question!!!

>

> just don't be tooo harsh...i bruise easily, and i cry like a 2 yr old

> teehee

> know wot ya kids mean tho

>

> cheers

> fraggle

>

>

 

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

It might make them leave .!!!!

And I don't care about the workers What are they doing there? They

should be feeding us or the press info but they dont

He/she who does nothing to prevent cruelty is as guilty as the aggressor

Isn't it called aiding and abetting????Doesn't it also carry a sentence !!!

 

It might be easier to get rid of workers they are paid less than Cass No

employees means no experiments

I think one should attack on all fronts with people choosing what ever they

are comefortable with.My opinion [or anyone elses ]shouldn't deter them

 

Its the animals we should be thinking about and our own safety to HELL

with those close enough to vivisection to know what goes on

Angie

 

-

" Peter Kebbell " <Snowbow

 

Tuesday, July 31, 2001 5:31 PM

Re: Do vivisectors deserve all they get? Discuss.

 

 

> Hi Angie / Cathy / Fraggle

>

> > I always think we should go as far as our conscience allows,and it will

be

> > differnt for all of us for many different reasons I wish I had the guts

to

> > do more but I;m proud of those who do and would never criticise -even if

I

> > didn't agree as it weakens the movement's resolve

>

> I think this opens up the age old question - do the ends justify the

means?

> To my mind, I don't see that physically harming a human in these

> circumstances helps an animal. Embarrassing the " big bosses " of the

> companies, and putting pressure on the people who can make a difference is

> certainly worthwhile. I'm afraid I just don't see the advantage of

attacking

> the workers - what does it achieve? What I want to do is stop vivisection

> (or as much of it as I possibly can) - and will put my energies into what

> can best achieve that. To attack the workers seems to be a bit like the

old

> Robin Hood episodes where they kill off hundreds of ordinary soldiers, but

> let the Sherriff of Nottingham go every time they capture him!

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Peter

 

> To attack the workers seems to be a bit like the old

> Robin Hood episodes where they kill off hundreds of ordinary soldiers, but

> let the Sherriff of Nottingham go every time they capture him!

 

Yes, they do don't they. If they killed him off there wouldn't be too many

replacements because people would be frightened to take the position.

 

I am most definitely not advocating that anyone kills anyone else!

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

Fraggle

 

> if he got rid of the sheriff, then robin would be out of a job

>

> teehee

 

LOL - I think that most definitely applies to the tv series.

 

I can't understand why 'the powers that be' keep up action which hurts only

the people of Iraq, when really they should get Saddam Hussain.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

So who should AR people go for______ Brian Cass? Bit difficult as the ALF

stance is not to harm living creatures and sadly he just comes into that

catagory !!!!! Angie

 

- >

>

> I can't understand why 'the powers that be' keep up action which hurts

only

> the people of Iraq, when really they should get Saddam Hussain.

>

> Jo

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Angie

 

Sometimes criticism isn't criticism but an opinion.

 

Anyway, I think a criticism would have to be quite a large one to deter most

AR

activists, wouldn't it?

 

I feel we should always listen to other people's opinions and suggestions.

This doesn't mean we don't argue with them or disregard what they say, after

having considered them. I don't think we can expect all AR activists to

agree with each other on everything.

 

Sometimes the ones who criticise may be involved in other aspects of AR, and

very often they are criticised themselves.

 

Jo

 

> Criticising can weaken the morale of a group--- thats what worries me

I

> have found that those who criticise don't do anything themselves ,--so all

> they do is weaken the other persons resolve and confidence

> We need to believe in ourselves and our group, if we are to win the fight

>

> However --for you fraggle---ANYTHING-------and I can be really gentle!!!!

[Guest guest]

No I think many AR people get enough criticism from outsiders as it is

To get criticism from your own makes me anyway think I am wrong there fore I

hesitate and do less I assume this is typical of many of us

Friends of mine need reassurance so I would always prefer to offer that than

criticism

If I criticised one on my side I would feel I was working for the opposition

and as I have said it weakens the cause [as does infighting and the

spreading of rumours etc IMO we shouldn't do those things

 

We should encourage all aspects of AR and just because others criticise does

not make it a good thing IMO

 

 

-

" Heartwork " <Heartwork

 

Wednesday, August 01, 2001 9:31 AM

Re: RE: Do vivisectors deserve all they get? Discuss.

 

 

> Angie

>

> Sometimes criticism isn't criticism but an opinion.

>

> Anyway, I think a criticism would have to be quite a large one to deter

most

> AR

> activists, wouldn't it?

>

> I feel we should always listen to other people's opinions and suggestions.

> This doesn't mean we don't argue with them or disregard what they say,

after

> having considered them. I don't think we can expect all AR activists to

> agree with each other on everything.

>

> Sometimes the ones who criticise may be involved in other aspects of AR,

and

> very often they are criticised themselves.

>

> Jo

>

> > Criticising can weaken the morale of a group--- thats what worries me

> I

> > have found that those who criticise don't do anything themselves ,--so

all

> > they do is weaken the other persons resolve and confidence

> > We need to believe in ourselves and our group, if we are to win the

fight

> >

> > However --for you fraggle---ANYTHING-------and I can be really

gentle!!!!

>

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Angie

 

I understand that you feel we shouldn't criticise each other, and to an

extent I agree. I cannot encourage all aspects of AR though. I certainly

don't agree with incendiary devices and bombs. Even if I did, they

sometimes hurt/injure people who are not the targets.

 

Jo

 

 

> No I think many AR people get enough criticism from outsiders as it is

> To get criticism from your own makes me anyway think I am wrong there fore

I

> hesitate and do less I assume this is typical of many of us

> Friends of mine need reassurance so I would always prefer to offer that

than

> criticism

> If I criticised one on my side I would feel I was working for the

opposition

> and as I have said it weakens the cause [as does infighting and the

> spreading of rumours etc IMO we shouldn't do those things

>

> We should encourage all aspects of AR and just because others criticise

does

> not make it a good thing IMO

[Guest guest]

Hi Angie

 

> Criticising can weaken the morale of a group--- thats what worries me

I

> have found that those who criticise don't do anything themselves ,--so all

> they do is weaken the other persons resolve and confidence

> We need to believe in ourselves and our group, if we are to win the fight

 

Just like to clarify, as I was the one " criticising " (although I wouldn't

classify what I said to be criticism of Fraggle or anyone else here), I do

actually do quite a bit - admittedly I'm more of a letter-writer due to

pressures of work which mean I am unable to be " out on the streets " on a

daily basis. Having said that, I do get involved with hunt sabbing at the

weekends, and any demos / protests which I am able to attend.

 

Having said that, I think " criticism " (otherwise known as expressing an

opinion) is very valid - any group needs to take into consideration the

views of all their members - even if they don't like those views.

Personally, I find it very irritating when I mention that I am vegan /

interested in animal rights, and the response I get is " all you people do is

attack humans and think animals are more important " .

 

Also, on a previous comment you made about it " not being a popularity

contest " - I disagree. We, as animal rights activists are at one extreme -

vivisectors are on the other. In the middle, we have the vast majority of

the population to convince that we are right - as much as we may want to see

things change, we will never achieve that change if our views are not at

least sympathised with by a majority of those " imbetweenies " .

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Angie

 

> It might make them leave .!!!!

 

They'll be replaced by others - and we're no closer to preventing suffering

than we were before - we've just spent a lot of time and energy for no gain.

Are any animals saved by an employee leaving?

 

> And I don't care about the workers What are they doing there? They

> should be feeding us or the press info but they dont

> He/she who does nothing to prevent cruelty is as guilty as the aggressor

> Isn't it called aiding and abetting????Doesn't it also carry a sentence

!!!

 

I think where we differ is our outlook - my outlook is that we want to stop

suffering of all creatures wherever possible. I don't see that attacking

employees helps toward this goal - they just aren't important enough to

warrant my attention.

 

> It might be easier to get rid of workers they are paid less than Cass No

> employees means no experiments

 

But that is never going to happen - let's be realistic, there are enough

people who don't care about animals to keep the industry going regardless of

how many employees leave - the only thing that will stop them will be

removing their financial support, and pressuring the " big bosses " who make

the money from the industry.

 

> Its the animals we should be thinking about and our own safety to HELL

> with those close enough to vivisection to know what goes on

 

Personally, I put humans and animals on an equal level - I don't place one

above the other.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Angie

 

> We should encourage all aspects of AR and just because others criticise

does

> not make it a good thing IMO

 

I think this is an over-simplification of people's beliefs. AR is a big part

of my life, but so are many other moral issues. I am not able to place

animal rights above human rights or any other deep moral issues. In fact,

just thinking about it - " animal rights " as a title doesn't mean much to

me - I comment on and act against anything which I find goes against my

ethical views (as I hope everybody else would do - what's the point in

having ethics if you never act on them? :-)) - it doesn't matter whether

that involves animal rights or any other issue - if I believe something is

wrong, I will do what I can to change it.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

I don't know of anyone injured by AR people but about 4 of ours are dead and

2 at least were seriously injured. I have not said I would encourage but I

would not condemn. I have yet to see the hunting fraternity condemn their

own for the saboteur deaths thats why they remain strong Angie

Can you tell me which people have been injured by bombs etc ?

 

 

-

" Heartwork " <Heartwork

 

Wednesday, August 01, 2001 3:18 PM

Re: RE: Do vivisectors deserve all they get? Discuss.

 

 

> Angie

>

> I understand that you feel we shouldn't criticise each other, and to an

> extent I agree. I cannot encourage all aspects of AR though. I certainly

> don't agree with incendiary devices and bombs. Even if I did, they

> sometimes hurt/injure people who are not the targets.

>

> Jo

>

>

> > No I think many AR people get enough criticism from outsiders as it is

> > To get criticism from your own makes me anyway think I am wrong there

fore

> I

> > hesitate and do less I assume this is typical of many of us

> > Friends of mine need reassurance so I would always prefer to offer that

> than

> > criticism

> > If I criticised one on my side I would feel I was working for the

> opposition

> > and as I have said it weakens the cause [as does infighting and the

> > spreading of rumours etc IMO we shouldn't do those things

> >

> > We should encourage all aspects of AR and just because others criticise

> does

> > not make it a good thing IMO

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

It is good if they are short staffed they will have to take on less work

-

" Peter Kebbell " <Snowbow

 

Wednesday, August 01, 2001 5:21 PM

Re: Do vivisectors deserve all they get? Discuss.

 

 

> Hi Angie

>

> > It might make them leave .!!!!

>

> They'll be replaced by others - and we're no closer to preventing

suffering

> than we were before - we've just spent a lot of time and energy for no

gain.

> Are any animals saved by an employee leaving?

>

[Guest guest]

There are shortages of teachers because the job is not considered worth

doing for the salary that is paid and there hasn't been any deliberate

" getting at " the teachers going on. Staff do leave these places if they are

upset enough same with share holders

 

I place kind animals on a higher level than those who are cruel

Rapists /mass murderers/vivisectionists anyone who bullies the weak I regard

as low life so would ot be bothered if they suffered they deserve it I

prefer to give my thoughts to those who suffer who have not deserved it

Young children /elderly people/women in certain countries/ " food " animals

tc.etc

-

" Peter Kebbell " <Snowbow

 

Wednesday, August 01, 2001 5:21 PM

Re: Do vivisectors deserve all they get? Discuss.

 

 

>

> I think where we differ is our outlook - my outlook is that we want to

stop

> suffering of all creatures wherever possible. I don't see that attacking

> employees helps toward this goal - they just aren't important enough to

> warrant my attention.

>

> > It might be easier to get rid of workers they are paid less than Cass

No

> > employees means no experiments

>

> But that is never going to happen - let's be realistic, there are enough

> people who don't care about animals to keep the industry going regardless

of

> how many employees leave - the only thing that will stop them will be

> removing their financial support, and pressuring the " big bosses " who make

> the money from the industry.

>

> > Its the animals we should be thinking about and our own safety to HELL

> > with those close enough to vivisection to know what goes on

>

> Personally, I put humans and animals on an equal level - I don't place one

> above the other.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

You may do a lot I don't Know you 'and I wasn't infering that you don't But

I have found that those who criticise waste peoples time with arguments when

more useful stuff can be done and demoralise those who would be active so

that they don't bother

We all have different strengths Its no good a poor letter writer being told

to not do an action and to write instead because they will end up doing

nothing

I would not tell people in the street anything that would stop them

listening to me ,or that they would find threatening

I assume here that i'm talking to people who are partway or ahead of me on

the road to animal liberation and it is those people I want to encourage by

supporting them I know some AR people who get depressed and take time

out .I want to minimise that happening by supporting them

You can questio all you like thats fine but I wlill always offer support to

anyone if what I read sounds like criticism

Its part of my nature I don't like people to feel they are unsupported/have

no friends I want the movement to stay strong and united so I see

myself as someone who unites if poss

Not sure if I've explained it well enough

 

-

" Peter Kebbell " <Snowbow

 

Wednesday, August 01, 2001 5:10 PM

Re: RE: Do vivisectors deserve all they get? Discuss.

 

 

> Hi Angie

>

> > Criticising can weaken the morale of a group--- thats what worries me

> I

> > have found that those who criticise don't do anything themselves ,--so

all

> > they do is weaken the other persons resolve and confidence

> > We need to believe in ourselves and our group, if we are to win the

fight

>

> Just like to clarify, as I was the one " criticising " (although I wouldn't

> classify what I said to be criticism of Fraggle or anyone else here), I do

> actually do quite a bit - admittedly I'm more of a letter-writer due to

> pressures of work which mean I am unable to be " out on the streets " on a

> daily basis. Having said that, I do get involved with hunt sabbing at the

> weekends, and any demos / protests which I am able to attend.

>

> Having said that, I think " criticism " (otherwise known as expressing an

> opinion) is very valid - any group needs to take into consideration the

> views of all their members - even if they don't like those views.

> Personally, I find it very irritating when I mention that I am vegan /

> interested in animal rights, and the response I get is " all you people do

is

> attack humans and think animals are more important " .

>

> Also, on a previous comment you made about it " not being a popularity

> contest " - I disagree. We, as animal rights activists are at one extreme -

> vivisectors are on the other. In the middle, we have the vast majority of

> the population to convince that we are right - as much as we may want to

see

> things change, we will never achieve that change if our views are not at

> least sympathised with by a majority of those " imbetweenies " .

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

So do I As a teacher I'm doing it every few minutes or so sometimes

in the hope that some kids might emerge as human beings!!!!!!

Angie

 

-

" Peter Kebbell " <Snowbow

 

Wednesday, August 01, 2001 5:40 PM

Re: RE: Do vivisectors deserve all they get? Discuss.

 

 

> Hi Angie

>

> > We should encourage all aspects of AR and just because others criticise

> does

> > not make it a good thing IMO

>

> I think this is an over-simplification of people's beliefs. AR is a big

part

> of my life, but so are many other moral issues. I am not able to place

> animal rights above human rights or any other deep moral issues. In fact,

> just thinking about it - " animal rights " as a title doesn't mean much to

> me - I comment on and act against anything which I find goes against my

> ethical views (as I hope everybody else would do - what's the point in

> having ethics if you never act on them? :-)) - it doesn't matter whether

> that involves animal rights or any other issue - if I believe something is

> wrong, I will do what I can to change it.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know names but there was a little girl who's father had been sent a

letter bomb. I believe he worked at HLS. She has injuries to her hands and

legs.

 

Jo

 

> Can you tell me which people have been injured by bombs etc ?

[Guest guest]

This may or may not be true .News paper reports are not always reliable

 

We had reports of a bomb attack on a van and for 3 days reports said it

looked like animal rights " extremists " and lalked about related AR issues

..When it was found to be an aquaintance with a grudge no retraction was made

so many people will still believe the original information. the man

responsible was not of course called an extremist!

 

I thuink some things are said to discredit us.eg we have been accused by

farmers of causing foot and mouth!!!Its now been shown that farmers gt more

money for sheep which are culled so " arrange " to get it in their flocks by

" borrowing " some infected sheep

 

 

 

-

" Heartwork " <Heartwork

 

Wednesday, August 01, 2001 11:40 PM

Re: RE: Do vivisectors deserve all they get? Discuss.

 

 

> I don't know names but there was a little girl who's father had been sent

a

> letter bomb. I believe he worked at HLS. She has injuries to her hands

and

> legs.

>

> Jo

>

> > Can you tell me which people have been injured by bombs etc ?

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Angie

 

> It is good if they are short staffed they will have to take on less work

 

That's a very big if.

 

BB

Peter