politics

[Guest guest]

Since I've been a member of this group, there have been discussions

about who is truly a vegan. Now the posts are mostly political, made

with the presumption that we all share the same political views and

agenda. I didn't realize it when I first became a vegan, but Veganism,

at least as I see it manifested here, is a religion. And we vegans, so

it seems, are among the most self-righteous people on earth. No wonder,

I think, that the world does not want to become vegan. The world is

wrong in eating meat and animal products, but it is right in not

wanting to become like us (as if we'd let them anyway). I too have been

self-righteous about all of this.

 

I came here in part to discover what it means to be a vegan. So far it

means to be left politically, to think of animals as humans, and to

believe that most humans are animals. I thought initially that this was

a way to be a better human being, but I'm finding that this is a way to

be better than other human beings. Really, I'm just wondering why

people keep preaching politics at me. For example, somebody brought up

a study or poll by the " Economic something or other " saying that

America is one of the most violent nations on the earth. Maybe America

is, maybe it isn't, but who cares what the " Economic something or

other " says about anything? Who are they except somemore self-appointed

experts of some variety that happen to agree with the point of view of

the one citing the study? I'm just thinking that there has to be

something good about veganism beyond inhabiting the moral high-ground,

but I don't know. This endeavor is precious to me, and I would love to

be shown that I have not seen a proper representation of what it means

to be vegan or that I have interpreted what I have seen incorrectly.

 

LVX,

 

Corry

[Guest guest]

Hi Corry,

I agree, many , perhaps most Vegans appear to be self righteous in

their attitude.

Animal rights enthusiasts frequently seem to be animal lovers but people

haters.

It would seem that you are correct in pointing out that most Vegans are

on the left politically.

In my own case , I became a Vegan for health reasons , I consume only

whole food plant based items. No oil, fat, sugar, or sodium.

Here I run into trouble with Vegans who promote a vegan diet as healthy

when they include lots of fat in the form of Tofu , peanut butter,

olives and Olive oil.

These thinks may be tasty, but are in no way healthy.

Rich

 

 

 

 

 

Corry wrote:

>

> Since I've been a member of this group, there have been discussions

> about who is truly a vegan. Now the posts are mostly political, made

> with the presumption that we all share the same political views and

> agenda. I didn't realize it when I first became a vegan, but Veganism,

> at least as I see it manifested here, is a religion. And we vegans, so

> it seems, are among the most self-righteous people on earth. No wonder,

> I think, that the world does not want to become vegan. The world is

> wrong in eating meat and animal products, but it is right in not

> wanting to become like us (as if we'd let them anyway). I too have been

> self-righteous about all of this.

>

> I came here in part to discover what it means to be a vegan. So far it

> means to be left politically, to think of animals as humans, and to

> believe that most humans are animals. I thought initially that this was

> a way to be a better human being, but I'm finding that this is a way to

> be better than other human beings. Really, I'm just wondering why

> people keep preaching politics at me. For example, somebody brought up

> a study or poll by the " Economic something or other " saying that

> America is one of the most violent nations on the earth. Maybe America

> is, maybe it isn't, but who cares what the " Economic something or

> other " says about anything? Who are they except somemore self-appointed

> experts of some variety that happen to agree with the point of view of

> the one citing the study? I'm just thinking that there has to be

> something good about veganism beyond inhabiting the moral high-ground,

> but I don't know. This endeavor is precious to me, and I would love to

> be shown that I have not seen a proper representation of what it means

> to be vegan or that I have interpreted what I have seen incorrectly.

>

> LVX,

>

> Corry

>

>

> ------

>

>

>

> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release 6/1/2007 11:22

AM

>

[Guest guest]

Hey, wanna be a part of a brand new juicing group in Vancouver?Let's get together and plan a juicing party.Green Life and Champion Juicers ready to go........DaveCorry <apocalypse888 wrote: Since I've been a member of this group, there have been discussions about who is truly a vegan. Now the posts are mostly political, made with the presumption that we all share the same political views and

agenda. I didn't realize it when I first became a vegan, but Veganism, at least as I see it manifested here, is a religion. And we vegans, so it seems, are among the most self-righteous people on earth. No wonder, I think, that the world does not want to become vegan. The world is wrong in eating meat and animal products, but it is right in not wanting to become like us (as if we'd let them anyway). I too have been self-righteous about all of this. I came here in part to discover what it means to be a vegan. So far it means to be left politically, to think of animals as humans, and to believe that most humans are animals. I thought initially that this was a way to be a better human being, but I'm finding that this is a way to be better than other human beings. Really, I'm just wondering why people keep preaching politics at me. For example, somebody brought up a study or poll by the "Economic something or other"

saying that America is one of the most violent nations on the earth. Maybe America is, maybe it isn't, but who cares what the "Economic something or other" says about anything? Who are they except somemore self-appointed experts of some variety that happen to agree with the point of view of the one citing the study? I'm just thinking that there has to be something good about veganism beyond inhabiting the moral high-ground, but I don't know. This endeavor is precious to me, and I would love to be shown that I have not seen a proper representation of what it means to be vegan or that I have interpreted what I have seen incorrectly. LVX,Corry

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel.

[Guest guest]

Hi Corry

 

> Since I've been a member of this group, there have been discussions

> about who is truly a vegan. Now the posts are mostly political, made

> with the presumption that we all share the same political views and

> agenda.

 

While many of us on here do have similar political views, there is no

presumption that everyone who is vegan (or, indeed, that everyone who is on

the list) will share those views. In the past, these sort of news items have

provided good basis for some interesting discussions - particularly where

people do have differing views. I feel there is a certain inclination

amongst people who have thought about their life choices and decided that

animals deserve more respect than they are given by our society are very

likely to have similar thoughts about humans - therefore it is likely that

many vegans will also be against harming of humans, and will therefore be

fairly liberal in their politics.

 

> I didn't realize it when I first became a vegan, but Veganism,

> at least as I see it manifested here, is a religion. And we vegans, so

> it seems, are among the most self-righteous people on earth.

 

I think you're misinterpreting the purpose of the list. This list is for

discussion on any topic, and therefore does not attempt to represent " the

views of vegans " as a whole. We are having discussions on topics which

interest people on the list - the fact we all happen to be vegan (or

vegan-friendly) is not really relevant to those discussion.

 

>I came here in part to discover what it means to be a vegan. So far it

>means to be left politically

 

I don't see that at all. Personally I would define myself politically as an

anarchist (in the proper modern sense of the word), and thereby do not fit

into the political classifications of " left " or " right " , as those are

intrinsically linked to the current party based political systems that

operate in the Western world. I do not know exactly how others define

themselves, but I suspect I am not entirely alone in not considering myself

" left wing " .

 

>For example, somebody brought up

>a study or poll by the " Economic something or other " saying that

>America is one of the most violent nations on the earth. Maybe America

>is, maybe it isn't, but who cares what the " Economic something or

>other " says about anything?

 

Well, me and several others. If you disagree, then you're very welcome to

say so. If you're not interested in the topic, then you're very welcome to

hit the delete button and take no part in that particular thread. However,

it really isn't very fair to try to dictate what people must and must not

post to a list which has been running happily for a number of years with a

similar style of postings.

 

>This endeavor is precious to me, and I would love to

>be shown that I have not seen a proper representation of what it means

>to be vegan or that I have interpreted what I have seen incorrectly.

 

To me, being vegan is a simple dictionary definition. I don't see myself as

belonging to any " club " of vegans, or that I represent other vegans in any

way, or that any other vegans represent me. I appreciate the existence of

groups like the vegan society to help make one part of my lifestyle easier,

but they only represent one small area of my interest, they do not represent

me as a whole person. I generally dislike the concept of being put in a

" box " because I choose to be vegan, and I find it surprising that anyone

would think that all vegans must believe the same as all other vegans or

else keep quiet about their views.

 

Could I suggest that if you want to join in with the conversations, then

please do, but please do not try to tell others what they may or may not

post to the list.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Corry

 

Are you saying it is wrong to be politically left or consider animals and

humans lives to be of equal value?

 

I find your attitude towards the people on this list a little insulting.

You talk as though everyone here has one mind on all things, which is

clearly not true, and would be neither right nor wrong even if it were the

case.

 

If you are not interested in the political comments then delete them. If

you have political comments of your own to make, then make them.

 

Jo

 

-

" Corry " <apocalypse888

 

Saturday, June 02, 2007 6:33 PM

politics

 

 

> Since I've been a member of this group, there have been discussions

> about who is truly a vegan. Now the posts are mostly political, made

> with the presumption that we all share the same political views and

> agenda. I didn't realize it when I first became a vegan, but Veganism,

> at least as I see it manifested here, is a religion. And we vegans, so

> it seems, are among the most self-righteous people on earth. No wonder,

> I think, that the world does not want to become vegan. The world is

> wrong in eating meat and animal products, but it is right in not

> wanting to become like us (as if we'd let them anyway). I too have been

> self-righteous about all of this.

>

> I came here in part to discover what it means to be a vegan. So far it

> means to be left politically, to think of animals as humans, and to

> believe that most humans are animals. I thought initially that this was

> a way to be a better human being, but I'm finding that this is a way to

> be better than other human beings. Really, I'm just wondering why

> people keep preaching politics at me. For example, somebody brought up

> a study or poll by the " Economic something or other " saying that

> America is one of the most violent nations on the earth. Maybe America

> is, maybe it isn't, but who cares what the " Economic something or

> other " says about anything? Who are they except somemore self-appointed

> experts of some variety that happen to agree with the point of view of

> the one citing the study? I'm just thinking that there has to be

> something good about veganism beyond inhabiting the moral high-ground,

> but I don't know. This endeavor is precious to me, and I would love to

> be shown that I have not seen a proper representation of what it means

> to be vegan or that I have interpreted what I have seen incorrectly.

>

> LVX,

>

> Corry

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Corry, I would like to think that this list is fairly democratic, and everyone can air their point of views without being judged. I hope you dont feel otherwise. Personally I think your own beliefs and lifestyle choices are exactly that yours. Mine and others on the list may differ , but are not being judged as less valid ( I hope ). Please feel free to air your point of view on any subject you fancy. The Valley Vegan............Corry <apocalypse888 wrote: Since I've been a member of this group, there have been discussions about who is truly a vegan. Now the posts are mostly political, made with the presumption that we all share the same political views and agenda. I didn't realize it when I first became a vegan, but Veganism, at least as I see it manifested here, is a religion. And we vegans, so it seems, are among the most self-righteous people on earth. No wonder, I think, that the world does not want to become vegan. The world is wrong in eating meat and animal products, but it is right in not wanting to become like us (as if we'd let them anyway). I too have been self-righteous about all of this. I came here in part to discover what it means to be a vegan. So far it means to be left politically, to think of animals as humans, and to believe that most humans are animals. I thought initially that this was

a way to be a better human being, but I'm finding that this is a way to be better than other human beings. Really, I'm just wondering why people keep preaching politics at me. For example, somebody brought up a study or poll by the "Economic something or other" saying that America is one of the most violent nations on the earth. Maybe America is, maybe it isn't, but who cares what the "Economic something or other" says about anything? Who are they except somemore self-appointed experts of some variety that happen to agree with the point of view of the one citing the study? I'm just thinking that there has to be something good about veganism beyond inhabiting the moral high-ground, but I don't know. This endeavor is precious to me, and I would love to be shown that I have not seen a proper representation of what it means to be vegan or that I have interpreted what I have seen incorrectly.

LVX,CorryPeter H

 

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free

account today.

[Guest guest]

Just another voice saying we're all individuals here, this is not

groupthink inc.

 

Here's something interesting from another list...

<< in an article on group patterns (specifically internet groups), a

clinical psychologist described how groups undermined their shared

interest. Two of the patterns that emerged:

-- demonization of other - because we are different from them and

they are evil.

-- deification of doctrine - because what makes us a group is SOOO special.>>

[Guest guest]

Hi Corry,

 

I read your post with interest, and despite being in agreeance with

much of the " left-ist " articles posted here, can see how someone who

is not of a like-mind might tire of them, or wonder why being vegan

necessarily means you are anti-Bush, or anti-American, or elitist.

It's an interesting observation. I admit, I read most of the posts

and chuckle, nod my head in agreement, or sigh with resignation,

depending on the topic. I don't think my interest in them has

anything to do with being vegan, but the fact that many people on

the list have an interest in such topics may have to do with our

predisposition to question the accepted philosophy. By no means are

all vegans left-wing radicals; there are Republican vegans, and

vegans who have no interest in politics whatsoever.

 

I think it's difficult to find a large group of people who can agree

on everything. We may have veganism or vegetarianism in common, but

there are SO many other things that make up our lives and

personalities. I want to thank you for posting, as there are

probably a lot of other people in the group who may feel the same,

but find it difficult to state their objection, when it seems

like " everyone else " in the group has an opinion that differs from

theirs.

 

I think the purpose of the group is to discuss topics that interest

vegans, whether or not the topic has to do with veganism, so, I

presume the person posting the political articles is just posting

them because they interest him or her. Why not start a discussion

about why you disagree with the article? Or post something that

interests you? I know, you're thinking, " Alright, but get ready for

the backlash from the group when I do… " True enough, but maybe some

good discussions will come out of the disagreement.

 

Hopefully, you don't stop posting, or reduce your involvement in the

group. It's our diversity that makes this group great.

 

Jolene

 

 

 

 

, " Corry " <apocalypse888 wrote:

>

> Since I've been a member of this group, there have been

discussions

> about who is truly a vegan. Now the posts are mostly political,

made

> with the presumption that we all share the same political views

and

> agenda. I didn't realize it when I first became a vegan, but

Veganism,

> at least as I see it manifested here, is a religion. And we

vegans, so

> it seems, are among the most self-righteous people on earth. No

wonder,

> I think, that the world does not want to become vegan. The world

is

> wrong in eating meat and animal products, but it is right in not

> wanting to become like us (as if we'd let them anyway). I too have

been

> self-righteous about all of this.

>

> I came here in part to discover what it means to be a vegan. So

far it

> means to be left politically, to think of animals as humans, and

to

> believe that most humans are animals. I thought initially that

this was

> a way to be a better human being, but I'm finding that this is a

way to

> be better than other human beings. Really, I'm just wondering why

> people keep preaching politics at me. For example, somebody

brought up

> a study or poll by the " Economic something or other " saying that

> America is one of the most violent nations on the earth. Maybe

America

> is, maybe it isn't, but who cares what the " Economic something or

> other " says about anything? Who are they except somemore self-

appointed

> experts of some variety that happen to agree with the point of

view of

> the one citing the study? I'm just thinking that there has to be

> something good about veganism beyond inhabiting the moral high-

ground,

> but I don't know. This endeavor is precious to me, and I would

love to

> be shown that I have not seen a proper representation of what it

means

> to be vegan or that I have interpreted what I have seen

incorrectly.

>

> LVX,

>

> Corry

>

[Guest guest]

Any diet should have a portion of healthy fats containing vitamin E etc. To

say you avoid all fats is not wise. All the foods you mention are healthy

in normal amounts.

 

I think your description of 'most vegans' being self-righteous, as you seem

to show that trait yourself in your judgement of them. If you have an

agenda, please let us know. It seems rude to join a group and then put them

down. Let's please have some politeness and consideration of our members.

 

Jo

 

-

" Raptor1000 " <raptor1000

 

Saturday, June 02, 2007 7:27 PM

Re: politics

 

 

> Hi Corry,

> I agree, many , perhaps most Vegans appear to be self righteous in

> their attitude.

> Animal rights enthusiasts frequently seem to be animal lovers but people

> haters.

> It would seem that you are correct in pointing out that most Vegans are

> on the left politically.

> In my own case , I became a Vegan for health reasons , I consume only

> whole food plant based items. No oil, fat, sugar, or sodium.

> Here I run into trouble with Vegans who promote a vegan diet as healthy

> when they include lots of fat in the form of Tofu , peanut butter,

> olives and Olive oil.

> These thinks may be tasty, but are in no way healthy.

> Rich

>

>

>

>

>

> Corry wrote:

> >

> > Since I've been a member of this group, there have been discussions

> > about who is truly a vegan. Now the posts are mostly political, made

> > with the presumption that we all share the same political views and

> > agenda. I didn't realize it when I first became a vegan, but Veganism,

> > at least as I see it manifested here, is a religion. And we vegans, so

> > it seems, are among the most self-righteous people on earth. No wonder,

> > I think, that the world does not want to become vegan. The world is

> > wrong in eating meat and animal products, but it is right in not

> > wanting to become like us (as if we'd let them anyway). I too have been

> > self-righteous about all of this.

> >

> > I came here in part to discover what it means to be a vegan. So far it

> > means to be left politically, to think of animals as humans, and to

> > believe that most humans are animals. I thought initially that this was

> > a way to be a better human being, but I'm finding that this is a way to

> > be better than other human beings. Really, I'm just wondering why

> > people keep preaching politics at me. For example, somebody brought up

> > a study or poll by the " Economic something or other " saying that

> > America is one of the most violent nations on the earth. Maybe America

> > is, maybe it isn't, but who cares what the " Economic something or

> > other " says about anything? Who are they except somemore self-appointed

> > experts of some variety that happen to agree with the point of view of

> > the one citing the study? I'm just thinking that there has to be

> > something good about veganism beyond inhabiting the moral high-ground,

> > but I don't know. This endeavor is precious to me, and I would love to

> > be shown that I have not seen a proper representation of what it means

> > to be vegan or that I have interpreted what I have seen incorrectly.

> >

> > LVX,

> >

> > Corry

> >

> >

> > ------

> >

> >

> >

> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release 6/1/2007

11:22 AM

> >

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

[[ it is likely thatmany vegans will also be against harming of humans, and will therefore befairly liberal in their politics.]]

 

I'm sure not everyone agrees that people who oppose harming humans will "therefore" be politically liberal. In the first place, liberals are usually proabortion and often pro-euthanasia, both of which kill people. Plenty of self-proclaimed liberals are even in favor of the death penalty. Often they support highly intrusive programs that cause considerable harm to other human beings in the real world. OTOH, I don't think most conservatives believe their political views are supposed to HARM human beings any more than liberals do. We ALL have good intentions. We just differ on our vision of the good and how to achieve it.

 

[Guest guest]

[[Here I run into trouble with Vegans who promote a vegan diet as healthy when they include lots of fat in the form of Tofu , peanut butter, olives and Olive oil.These thinks may be tasty, but are in no way healthy.]]

 

 

Actually, olives and olive oil are considered very heart healthy in reasonable amounts. Natural peanut butter is also good for you. Tofu is not only healthy, but generally low in fat unless deep fried.

 

[Guest guest]

Tofu is about 40% fat.

Peanut butter is about 85% fat.

Olives and olive oil are mostly fat.

______________________

There are no healthy fats.

____________________

None of these items are health food.

_________________________

Check out the information at Dr McDougalls website.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_vegetable_fat.html

 

Rich Richardson

Eugene, Oregon

 

Oom Yaaqub wrote:

>

> [[Here I run into trouble with Vegans who promote a vegan diet as healthy

> when they include lots of fat in the form of Tofu , peanut butter,

> olives and Olive oil.

> These thinks may be tasty, but are in no way healthy.]]

>

>

> Actually, olives and olive oil are considered very heart healthy in

> reasonable amounts. Natural peanut butter is also good for you. Tofu

> is not only healthy, but generally low in fat unless deep fried.

>

>

> ------

>

>

>

> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/830 - Release 6/3/2007 12:47

PM

>

[Guest guest]

I think that we discovered here previously that the British and

American term 'liberal' mean entirely different things, so this sort

of discussion always ends up in confusion. Thankfully we don't have

the death penalty in Britain.

 

Jo

 

, " Oom Yaaqub " <oomyaaqub wrote:

>

> [[ it is likely that

> many vegans will also be against harming of humans, and will

therefore be

> fairly liberal in their politics.

> ]]

>

> I'm sure not everyone agrees that people who oppose harming humans

will " therefore " be politically liberal. In the first place, liberals

are usually proabortion and often pro-euthanasia, both of which kill

people. Plenty of self-proclaimed liberals are even in favor of the

death penalty. Often they support highly intrusive programs that cause

considerable harm to other human beings in the real world. OTOH, I

don't think most conservatives believe their political views are

supposed to HARM human beings any more than liberals do. We ALL have

good intentions. We just differ on our vision of the good and how to

achieve it.

>

[Guest guest]

Therefore if you eat only tofu, or only peanut butter, or only olive

oil your diet will be high fat. If, as most people, you actually eat

vegetables, grains etc. this will put the total fat content of your

diet down to a healthy 15-20%.

 

If you don't have any fats at all you are unable to assimilate the

fat-soluble vitamins such as vitamin E.

 

Obviously there are some brands of peanut butters loaded with salt

and additives and nobody would advocate that these are healthy. If

the butter is made from peanuts with nothing else than it is healthy,

as are nuts and seeds which all have a high fat content.

 

Jo

 

, Raptor1000 <raptor1000 wrote:

>

> Tofu is about 40% fat.

> Peanut butter is about 85% fat.

> Olives and olive oil are mostly fat.

> ______________________

> There are no healthy fats.

> ____________________

> None of these items are health food.

> _________________________

> Check out the information at Dr McDougalls website.

> http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_vegetable_fat.html

>

> Rich Richardson

> Eugene, Oregon

>

> Oom Yaaqub wrote:

> >

> > [[Here I run into trouble with Vegans who promote a vegan diet as

healthy

> > when they include lots of fat in the form of Tofu , peanut butter,

> > olives and Olive oil.

> > These thinks may be tasty, but are in no way healthy.]]

> >

> >

> > Actually, olives and olive oil are considered very heart healthy

in

> > reasonable amounts. Natural peanut butter is also good for you.

Tofu

> > is not only healthy, but generally low in fat unless deep fried.

> >

> >

> >

------

> >

> >

> >

> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/830 - Release Date:

6/3/2007 12:47 PM

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I have read the McDougall article and I would disagree with the

interpretation you have made.

 

The article is talking about transfats, which we all know are

unhealthy, and using too much vegetable fat as a 'cure'. It mentions

the fact that we get EFAs from a vegetable source - and of course,

olives and nuts and soya beans are vegetable.

 

Jo

 

, Raptor1000 <raptor1000 wrote:

>

> Tofu is about 40% fat.

> Peanut butter is about 85% fat.

> Olives and olive oil are mostly fat.

> ______________________

> There are no healthy fats.

> ____________________

> None of these items are health food.

> _________________________

> Check out the information at Dr McDougalls website.

> http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_vegetable_fat.html

>

> Rich Richardson

> Eugene, Oregon

>

> Oom Yaaqub wrote:

> >

> > [[Here I run into trouble with Vegans who promote a vegan diet as

healthy

> > when they include lots of fat in the form of Tofu , peanut butter,

> > olives and Olive oil.

> > These thinks may be tasty, but are in no way healthy.]]

> >

> >

> > Actually, olives and olive oil are considered very heart healthy

in

> > reasonable amounts. Natural peanut butter is also good for you.

Tofu

> > is not only healthy, but generally low in fat unless deep fried.

> >

> >

> >

------

> >

> >

> >

> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/830 - Release Date:

6/3/2007 12:47 PM

> >

>

[Guest guest]

From a August 2006 McDougall newsletter------

 

_____

Adding Avocados or Oils to Salads Aids Absorption of Nutrients—More Good

News about Bad Habits

_______

Findings from a study of 11 subjects published in 2005 on the benefits

of eating oily foods have resurfaced (Wednesday, August 09, 2006; by

Tara Parker-Pope, The Wall Street Journal).1 This revived story is based

on an article titled, Carotenoid absorption from salad and salsa by

humans is enhanced by the addition of avocado or avocado oil by Nuray

Unlu, published in the Journal of Nutrition. The researchers found that,

“adding avocado fruit can significantly enhance carotenoid absorption

from salad and salsa, which is attributed primarily to the lipids

present in avocado.”2 The research was funded by the California Avocado

Commission. Half an avocado was as effective at enhancing absorption as

a whole avocado. One avocado was estimated to contain 24 grams of oil.

Pure avocado oil (24 grams) was also tested and found to be as effective

as the whole avocado.

 

Comments:

 

In my forty-year career as a medical doctor, I have never seen any

diseases due to deficiency of carotenoids in a patient—ever. But every

day I see hundreds of people in shopping centers and on the street

suffering from diseases due to fat excess. Therefore, even faced with

the findings of this study, my recommendations to limit fats and oils

will remain the same. For healthy, trim people I have always said

unprocessed, high-fat foods, like avocados, nuts, seeds and olives, can

be a delicious addition to their diet—and may be important for those

with high calories needs, such as athletes and active children.

 

Our requirements for essential fats are very small—no more than 0.5 gram

daily. Only plants can synthesize essential fats—so eating plant-foods

is the obvious source of these necessary nutrients. Because body fats

(adipose tissue) store these essential fats efficiently, even if

overweight people were placed on an artificially manufactured fat-free

diet, they would have little risk of becoming deficient in essential

fats over their entire lifetime. Note: a diet made of unprocessed plant

foods, like the McDougall diet, naturally contains about 7% of its

calories as fat—and about half the total fat found in plant foods is of

the essential variety—the kind we need

 

People struggling to lose excess body weight will want to avoid all high

fat foods and especially oils—the fat you eat is the fat you wear.

Optimum absorption of nutrients has been reported to occur with as

little as 3 grams of added fats (27 calories) per meal.2 In this

experiment, where people consumed whole avocados or the oil extract,

they ate 21 grams of fat which translates into 189 extra calories per meal.

 

There is a big difference between fats consumed in their natural

packages as avocados, nuts, seeds, and olives; and fats consumed as

extracted oils. Fats found in foods are combined with other essential

nutrients (vitamins, minerals, fibers, and thousands of important

phytochemicals). These naturally balanced combinations allow the fats to

safely and efficiently work when they enter the cells of your body. Free

fats, stripped away from the other ingredients found in grains, fruits,

seeds or nuts, become medicines, at best, and toxins, at worst.

Consuming free vegetable oils easily makes people fat, and the fats

suppress the immune system (increasing the risk of cancer and

infection), and encourage bleeding. These free oils easily spoil,

becoming rancid—a condition where harmful free radicals are plentiful.

 

Low-fat plant foods provide all the carotenoids the body needs. Consider

the possibility that an excess of these nutrients caused by adding

avocados and other oils to a low-fat meal may result in nutritional

imbalances that encourage disease. It is possible.

 

If you want to believe that there is a health advantage from more

nutrients entering your body, then at least act conservatively. For

maximum carotenoid absorption the amount of fat required is as little as

1/7th of an avocado—about a tablespoonful per meal. Also heating and

blending fruits and vegetables enhance nutrient absorption3—and these

are much safer approaches than stuffing your overweight self with fat.

 

1) http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06221/712211-114.stm

 

2) Unlu NZ, Bohn T, Clinton SK, Schwartz SJ. Carotenoid absorption from

salad and salsa by humans is enhanced by the addition of avocado or

avocado oil. J Nutr. 2005 Mar;135(3):431-6.

 

3) Brown MJ, Ferruzzi MG, Nguyen ML, Cooper DA, Eldridge AL, Schwartz

SJ, White WS. Carotenoid bioavailability is higher from salads ingested

with full-fat than with fat-reduced salad dressings as measured with

electrochemical detection.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Aug;80(2):396-403.

 

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heartwerk wrote:

>

> I have read the McDougall article and I would disagree with the

> interpretation you have made.

>

> The article is talking about transfats, which we all know are

> unhealthy, and using too much vegetable fat as a 'cure'. It mentions

> the fact that we get EFAs from a vegetable source - and of course,

> olives and nuts and soya beans are vegetable.

>

> Jo

>

>

> <%40>, Raptor1000 <raptor1000 wrote:

> >

> > Tofu is about 40% fat.

> > Peanut butter is about 85% fat.

> > Olives and olive oil are mostly fat.

> > ______________________

> > There are no healthy fats.

> > ____________________

> > None of these items are health food.

> > _________________________

> > Check out the information at Dr McDougalls website.

> > http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_vegetable_fat.html

> <http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_vegetable_fat.html>

> >

> > Rich Richardson

> > Eugene, Oregon

> >

> > Oom Yaaqub wrote:

> > >

> > > [[Here I run into trouble with Vegans who promote a vegan diet as

> healthy

> > > when they include lots of fat in the form of Tofu , peanut butter,

> > > olives and Olive oil.

> > > These thinks may be tasty, but are in no way healthy.]]

> > >

> > >

> > > Actually, olives and olive oil are considered very heart healthy

> in

> > > reasonable amounts. Natural peanut butter is also good for you.

> Tofu

> > > is not only healthy, but generally low in fat unless deep fried.

> > >

> > >

> > > -------------------------

> ------

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/830 - Release Date:

> 6/3/2007 12:47 PM

> > >

> >

>

>

> ------

>

>

>

> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/830 - Release 6/3/2007 12:47

PM

>

[Guest guest]

[[There are no healthy fats.]]

 

That statement is absolutely untrue. There are some essential fatty acids (that means your body needs them but cannot manufacture them.) Olive oil has been proven to be a heart healthy part of the famous "Mediterranean diet." I'm still trying to figure out how anyone can claim tofu is high in fat. A half cup firm tofu contains 5 grams of fat, and even lower fat versions are available.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

[[i think that we discovered here previously that the British and American term 'liberal' mean entirely different things, so this sort of discussion always ends up in confusion.]]

 

Even in Britain, I doubt that anyone of any political persuasion would say that their intentions are anything but good. Everyone wants to "help people" except sociopaths, of course.

 

[Guest guest]

Regarding Olive oil.

A short piece from the McDougall newsletter.

Rich

_____________

The Mediterranean Diet Prolongs Life

 

Modified Mediterranean diet and survival: EPIC-elderly prospective

cohort study by Antonia Trichopoulou in the April 8, 2005 issue of the

British Medical Journal found, “The Mediterranean diet, modified so as

to apply across Europe, was associated with increased survival among

older people.”1 The reduction in mortality was 8%. This study of 74,607

men and women, aged 60 and more, looked at dietary habits and found

people who are relying on more plant foods lived longer.

________________ They

could not show any particular benefits from olive oil consumption.

_______________

COMMENT: ( By Dr McDougall) Friends are always asking if you have

evidence that your efforts to eat healthier will translate into more

life. They may be even so unkind as to remark, “Being a vegetarian won’t

make you live any longer – the boredom just makes life seem longer.” The

Mediterranean diet research is the largest study ever done to address

the question of diet and survival. And yes, diet does work.

 

They also found that the Mediterranean diet is a healthy diet in spite

of the olive oil – it is a great diet because of the higher intake of

fruits and vegetables and lower consumption of meats and dairy.

Considering all the evidence published to date, including that of the

7th Day Adventist vegetarians showing 10 years longer survival than the

average resident of California,2 I have no trouble telling you that the

more you eat healthy foods (exemplified by the McDougall Diet) the

greater your chances of a longer, healthier life.

 

1) Trichopoulou A, Orfanos P, Norat T, Bueno-de-Mesquita B, Ocke MC,

Peeters PH, et. al. Modified Mediterranean diet and survival:

EPIC-elderly prospective cohort study.

BMJ. 2005 Apr 30;330(7498):991.

 

2) Fraser G. Ten years of life. Is it a matter of chance? Arch Intern

Med 161:1645-52, 2001.

Oom Yaaqub wrote:

>

> [[There are no healthy fats.]]

> That statement is absolutely untrue. There are some essential fatty

> acids (that means your body needs them but cannot manufacture them.)

> Olive oil has been proven to be a heart healthy part of the famous

> " Mediterranean diet. " I'm still trying to figure out how anyone can

> claim tofu is high in fat. A half cup firm tofu contains 5 grams of

> fat, and even lower fat versions are available.

>

> ------

>

>

>

> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.9/832 - Release 6/4/2007 6:43

PM

>

[Guest guest]

Regarding Tofu fat...

Rich

http://www.all-creatures.org/mfz/myths-tofu.html

 

 

 

 

Oom Yaaqub wrote:

>

> [[There are no healthy fats.]]

>

> That statement is absolutely untrue. There are some essential fatty

> acids (that means your body needs them but cannot manufacture them.)

> Olive oil has been proven to be a heart healthy part of the famous

> " Mediterranean diet. " I'm still trying to figure out how anyone can

> claim tofu is high in fat. A half cup firm tofu contains 5 grams of

> fat, and even lower fat versions are available.

>

>

>

>

> ------

>

>

>

> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.9/832 - Release 6/4/2007 6:43

PM

>

[Guest guest]

Regarding oils,

http://www.all-creatures.org/mfz/myths-vegoils.html

 

Oom Yaaqub wrote:

>

> [[There are no healthy fats.]]

>

> That statement is absolutely untrue. There are some essential fatty

> acids (that means your body needs them but cannot manufacture them.)

> Olive oil has been proven to be a heart healthy part of the famous

> " Mediterranean diet. " I'm still trying to figure out how anyone can

> claim tofu is high in fat. A half cup firm tofu contains 5 grams of

> fat, and even lower fat versions are available.

>

>

>

>

> ------

>

>

>

> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.9/832 - Release 6/4/2007 6:43

PM

>

[Guest guest]

http://www.all-creatures.org/mfz/health-potatoes.html

 

Oom Yaaqub wrote:

>

> [[There are no healthy fats.]]

>

> That statement is absolutely untrue. There are some essential fatty

> acids (that means your body needs them but cannot manufacture them.)

> Olive oil has been proven to be a heart healthy part of the famous

> " Mediterranean diet. " I'm still trying to figure out how anyone can

> claim tofu is high in fat. A half cup firm tofu contains 5 grams of

> fat, and even lower fat versions are available.

>

>

>

>

> ------

>

>

>

> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.9/832 - Release 6/4/2007 6:43

PM

>

[Guest guest]

However, many people prefer to help "the state" rather than the individual people.

 

Peter

 

-

Oom Yaaqub

Tuesday, June 05, 2007 6:17 PM

Re: Re: politics

 

 

[[i think that we discovered here previously that the British and American term 'liberal' mean entirely different things, so this sort of discussion always ends up in confusion.]]

 

Even in Britain, I doubt that anyone of any political persuasion would say that their intentions are anything but good. Everyone wants to "help people" except sociopaths, of course.

 

[Guest guest]

It's just as well he says something we all know to be true, isn't it.

 

I think it unlikely that the overweight people he mentioned became so

through consuming avocadoes, nuts, seeds and olives.

 

Jo

 

For healthy, trim people I have always said

> unprocessed, high-fat foods, like avocados, nuts, seeds and olives,

can

> be a delicious addition to their diet—and may be important for those

> with high calories needs, such as athletes and active children.

[Guest guest]

Is the 'McDougall diet' a money-making venture?

 

Jo

 

, Raptor1000 <raptor1000 wrote:

>

> Regarding Olive oil.

> A short piece from the McDougall newsletter.

> Rich

> _____________

> The Mediterranean Diet Prolongs Life

>

> Modified Mediterranean diet and survival: EPIC-elderly prospective

> cohort study by Antonia Trichopoulou in the April 8, 2005 issue of

the

> British Medical Journal found, " The Mediterranean diet, modified so

as

> to apply across Europe, was associated with increased survival

among

> older people. " 1 The reduction in mortality was 8%. This study of

74,607

> men and women, aged 60 and more, looked at dietary habits and found

> people who are relying on more plant foods lived longer.

> ________________

They

> could not show any particular benefits from olive oil consumption.

> _______________

> COMMENT: ( By Dr McDougall) Friends are always asking if you have

> evidence that your efforts to eat healthier will translate into

more

> life. They may be even so unkind as to remark, " Being a vegetarian

won't

> make you live any longer – the boredom just makes life seem

longer. " The

> Mediterranean diet research is the largest study ever done to

address

> the question of diet and survival. And yes, diet does work.

>

> They also found that the Mediterranean diet is a healthy diet in

spite

> of the olive oil – it is a great diet because of the higher intake

of

> fruits and vegetables and lower consumption of meats and dairy.

> Considering all the evidence published to date, including that of

the

> 7th Day Adventist vegetarians showing 10 years longer survival than

the

> average resident of California,2 I have no trouble telling you that

the

> more you eat healthy foods (exemplified by the McDougall Diet) the

> greater your chances of a longer, healthier life.

>

> 1) Trichopoulou A, Orfanos P, Norat T, Bueno-de-Mesquita B, Ocke

MC,

> Peeters PH, et. al. Modified Mediterranean diet and survival:

> EPIC-elderly prospective cohort study.

> BMJ. 2005 Apr 30;330(7498):991.

>

> 2) Fraser G. Ten years of life. Is it a matter of chance? Arch

Intern

> Med 161:1645-52, 2001.

> Oom Yaaqub wrote:

> >

> > [[There are no healthy fats.]]

> > That statement is absolutely untrue. There are some essential

fatty

> > acids (that means your body needs them but cannot manufacture

them.)

> > Olive oil has been proven to be a heart healthy part of the

famous

> > " Mediterranean diet. " I'm still trying to figure out how anyone

can

> > claim tofu is high in fat. A half cup firm tofu contains 5 grams

of

> > fat, and even lower fat versions are available.

> >

> >

------

> >

> >

> >

> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.9/832 - Release Date:

6/4/2007 6:43 PM

> >

>