Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

[Guest guest]

Why do you insist on being so specific? the dietry defenition of a vegan procludes honey, so why not call them vegetarians, who do eat honey? it gets rediculous to have a pidgeon hole for every faction and a little anal as well. Call them what you like, lacto-ovo-honey vegetarian?(assuming the eat eaggs and drink milk ) or just make up your own! The Valley Vegan............Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub wrote: That's not really specific enough. I mean, just giving up dairy and eggs is considered extreme by most people in our culture, and it necessitates a very different diet than the typical vegetarian diet. My best friend in high school kept bees; I know they benefit crops as well as providing honey. I think there are a lot of people who feel differently about insects than about members of their own phylum. - peter VV Tuesday, May

15, 2007 4:40 PM Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition If you do have to have "labels", then I suppose they would be classed as vegetarian, not dietry vegan. The Valley Vegan.............Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote: Is there a word for someone who eats no meat, fish, eggs, or dairy, but who does eat honey? - metalscarab Monday, May 14, 2007 1:06 PM Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition Hi Connie The Vegan Society defines Vegan pretty much as you have. However, they do also use the term "dietary vegan" to apply to those who make those choices purely for their diets, and not in other areas of their life. BB Peter - connie bell Monday, May 14, 2007 5:50 PM Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition Hello Shells , Those of us who are Vegan for the sake of the animals are sure glad when anyone does not consume animal products .. I hope I am echoing all opinions and not just my own ... You certainly are vegetarian from what you say of your diet , but Vegan

does go further .. So by definition a vegan is someone who " eats a plant-based diet free from all animal products, including milk, eggs and honey." Vegans has also come to mean someone who does not wear leather, wool or silk and someone who uses no products containing any animal byproducts or is currently tested on animals .. example I use no cleaning products, makeup, etc that contain any animal ingredient and is not tested on animals .. So I really don't know if you are Vegan , but I am happy you have chosen not to eat animals .. be well Conniesbibeau <sbibeau > wrote: Greetings,I am new here. I joined a few vegan groups hoping to discuss my favorite topic - food! which to me is mostly fruits, grains, nuts, seeds, legumes. I have been what I thought was vegan off and on much

of my life. My womnderful husband (of 17 years) is a "meatie" - at least that is what I call him. After joining in with his family for a while and eating what they eat (sausage, yuck!) I found that I gained a few pounds and my cholesterol went up (in just one year!). His family members live into their 90s - his grandpa turns 99 this year - they are farmers and grow corn, soybeans, barley, etc. - my hubby's cholesterol is normal. That is them - this is me, the lactose intolerant one, who gets acid reflux when she eats meat - so back to the "fruits" - I have been what I might call an instinctutual vegan or "frugan" (I just made that up) since a very young age when my brother and I tried to make everything out of soybeans (everything). "Fruits" are food and useful too - I don't even really like lots of onions, garlic, and other rooty stuff, go figure. Now to the tough part. I read your recent group posts about

animals - but it is just not an issue for me personally - I never decided to eat what I do because of animals - they don't enter my thoughts - I don't want pets, yuck, just don't like wool - (isn't cotton great!) - don't care for leather either - fur, not my thing - hubby bought me one, thanks, but faux works just as good, cheaper too. My point is - I eat fruits, nuts, grains, legumes for health and pleasure. Does that mean I am not vegan? BTW, I cook my beans so I guess am not raw either.Shells Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Answers - Check it out. Peter H Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign

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[Guest guest]

[[Why do you insist on being so specific? the dietry defenition of a vegan procludes honey, so why not call them vegetarians, who do eat honey?]]

 

Maybe because I am trying to attract more people to a compassionate lifestyle, and I think that precludes things that would strike the vast majority as crackpot. At this moment in time, very few people are ready for "insect rights", but quite a few are willing to have sympathy for obviously sentient veal calves and chickens. The point is that traditional lacto-ovo-vegetarianism can't really be justified from either a compassionate, an environmentalist or even a dietary POV.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes - a nuisance - at least to vegans. If someone says they are vegan and yet eats honey, restaurants will think that all vegans eat honey.

 

Jo

 

-

Oom Yaaqub

Tuesday, May 15, 2007 9:25 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

Is there a word for someone who eats no meat, fish, eggs, or dairy, but who does eat honey?

 

 

-

metalscarab

Monday, May 14, 2007 1:06 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

 

Hi Connie

 

The Vegan Society defines Vegan pretty much as you have. However, they do also use the term "dietary vegan" to apply to those who make those choices purely for their diets, and not in other areas of their life.

 

BB

Peter

 

-

connie bell

Monday, May 14, 2007 5:50 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

Hello Shells , Those of us who are Vegan for the sake of the animals are sure glad when anyone does not consume animal products .. I hope I am echoing all opinions and not just my own ... You certainly are vegetarian from what you say of your diet , but Vegan does go further .. So by definition a vegan is someone who " eats a plant-based diet free from all animal products, including milk, eggs and honey." Vegans has also come to mean someone who does not wear leather, wool or silk and someone who uses no products containing any animal byproducts or is currently tested on animals .. example I use no cleaning products, makeup, etc that contain any animal ingredient and is not tested on animals .. So I really don't know if you are Vegan , but I am happy you have chosen not to eat animals .. be well Conniesbibeau <sbibeau > wrote:

 

Greetings,I am new here. I joined a few vegan groups hoping to discuss my favorite topic - food! which to me is mostly fruits, grains, nuts, seeds, legumes. I have been what I thought was vegan off and on much of my life. My womnderful husband (of 17 years) is a "meatie" - at least that is what I call him. After joining in with his family for a while and eating what they eat (sausage, yuck!) I found that I gained a few pounds and my cholesterol went up (in just one year!). His family members live into their 90s - his grandpa turns 99 this year - they are farmers and grow corn, soybeans, barley, etc. - my hubby's cholesterol is normal. That is them - this is me, the lactose intolerant one, who gets acid reflux when she eats meat - so back to the "fruits" - I have been what I might call an instinctutual vegan or "frugan" (I just made that up) since a very young age when my brother and I tried to make everything out of soybeans (everything). "Fruits" are food and useful too - I don't even really like lots of onions, garlic, and other rooty stuff, go figure. Now to the tough part. I read your recent group posts about animals - but it is just not an issue for me personally - I never decided to eat what I do because of animals - they don't enter my thoughts - I don't want pets, yuck, just don't like wool - (isn't cotton great!) - don't care for leather either - fur, not my thing - hubby bought me one, thanks, but faux works just as good, cheaper too. My point is - I eat fruits, nuts, grains, legumes for health and pleasure. Does that mean I am not vegan? BTW, I cook my beans so I guess am not raw either.Shells

 

 

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[Guest guest]

If someone is an ethical vegan they would logically treat all living animals the same way - why would it be alright to exploit insects?

 

I think Peter's answer was a correct one. Can you give your reasons for disagreeing, and maybe exact descriptions of what you think is a vegan, vegetarian etc.

 

Jo

 

-

Oom Yaaqub

Tuesday, May 15, 2007 9:50 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

That's not really specific enough. I mean, just giving up dairy and eggs is considered extreme by most people in our culture, and it necessitates a very different diet than the typical vegetarian diet. My best friend in high school kept bees; I know they benefit crops as well as providing honey. I think there are a lot of people who feel differently about insects than about members of their own phylum.

 

 

 

-

peter VV

Tuesday, May 15, 2007 4:40 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

 

If you do have to have "labels", then I suppose they would be classed as vegetarian, not dietry vegan.

 

The Valley Vegan.............Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

 

 

 

 

Is there a word for someone who eats no meat, fish, eggs, or dairy, but who does eat honey?

 

 

-

metalscarab

Monday, May 14, 2007 1:06 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

 

Hi Connie

 

The Vegan Society defines Vegan pretty much as you have. However, they do also use the term "dietary vegan" to apply to those who make those choices purely for their diets, and not in other areas of their life.

 

BB

Peter

 

-

connie bell

Monday, May 14, 2007 5:50 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

Hello Shells , Those of us who are Vegan for the sake of the animals are sure glad when anyone does not consume animal products .. I hope I am echoing all opinions and not just my own ... You certainly are vegetarian from what you say of your diet , but Vegan does go further .. So by definition a vegan is someone who " eats a plant-based diet free from all animal products, including milk, eggs and honey." Vegans has also come to mean someone who does not wear leather, wool or silk and someone who uses no products containing any animal byproducts or is currently tested on animals .. example I use no cleaning products, makeup, etc that contain any animal ingredient and is not tested on animals .. So I really don't know if you are Vegan , but I am happy you have chosen not to eat animals .. be well Conniesbibeau <sbibeau > wrote:

 

Greetings,I am new here. I joined a few vegan groups hoping to discuss my favorite topic - food! which to me is mostly fruits, grains, nuts, seeds, legumes. I have been what I thought was vegan off and on much of my life. My womnderful husband (of 17 years) is a "meatie" - at least that is what I call him. After joining in with his family for a while and eating what they eat (sausage, yuck!) I found that I gained a few pounds and my cholesterol went up (in just one year!). His family members live into their 90s - his grandpa turns 99 this year - they are farmers and grow corn, soybeans, barley, etc. - my hubby's cholesterol is normal. That is them - this is me, the lactose intolerant one, who gets acid reflux when she eats meat - so back to the "fruits" - I have been what I might call an instinctutual vegan or "frugan" (I just made that up) since a very young age when my brother and I tried to make everything out of soybeans (everything). "Fruits" are food and useful too - I don't even really like lots of onions, garlic, and other rooty stuff, go figure. Now to the tough part. I read your recent group posts about animals - but it is just not an issue for me personally - I never decided to eat what I do because of animals - they don't enter my thoughts - I don't want pets, yuck, just don't like wool - (isn't cotton great!) - don't care for leather either - fur, not my thing - hubby bought me one, thanks, but faux works just as good, cheaper too. My point is - I eat fruits, nuts, grains, legumes for health and pleasure. Does that mean I am not vegan? BTW, I cook my beans so I guess am not raw either.Shells

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I understand that you wish to attract more people to a compassionate lifestyle, which is good. I cannot understand why you feel you need to do it on a list where most of the members seem to already have a more compassionate attitude than you do. While it is good to have discussions I feel that this one is probably rather distasteful to the majority of list members.

 

Jo

 

-

Oom Yaaqub

Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:24 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

[[Why do you insist on being so specific? the dietry defenition of a vegan procludes honey, so why not call them vegetarians, who do eat honey?]]

 

Maybe because I am trying to attract more people to a compassionate lifestyle, and I think that precludes things that would strike the vast majority as crackpot. At this moment in time, very few people are ready for "insect rights", but quite a few are willing to have sympathy for obviously sentient veal calves and chickens. The point is that traditional lacto-ovo-vegetarianism can't really be justified from either a compassionate, an environmentalist or even a dietary POV.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes - they're called a vegetarian!

 

BB

Peter

On 15/05/07, Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub wrote:

 

 

 

Is there a word for someone who eats no meat, fish, eggs, or dairy, but who does eat honey?

 

 

-

metalscarab

 

 

 

Monday, May 14, 2007 1:06 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

 

Hi Connie

 

The Vegan Society defines Vegan pretty much as you have. However, they do also use the term " dietary vegan " to apply to those who make those choices purely for their diets, and not in other areas of their life.

 

 

BB

Peter

 

-

connie bell

 

 

 

Monday, May 14, 2007 5:50 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

Hello Shells , Those of us who are Vegan for the sake of the animals are sure glad when anyone does not consume animal products .. I hope I am echoing all opinions and not just my own ... You certainly are vegetarian from what you say of your diet , but Vegan does go further .. So by definition a vegan is someone who " eats a plant-based diet free from all animal products, including milk, eggs and honey. " Vegans has also come to mean someone who does not wear leather, wool or silk and someone who uses no products containing any animal byproducts or is currently tested on animals .. example I use no cleaning products, makeup, etc that contain any animal ingredient and is not tested on animals .. So I really don't know if you are Vegan , but I am happy you have chosen not to eat animals .. be well Connie

sbibeau <sbibeau wrote:

 

Greetings,I am new here. I joined a few vegan groups hoping to discuss my favorite topic - food! which to me is mostly fruits, grains, nuts, seeds, legumes. I have been what I thought was vegan off and on much of my life. My womnderful husband (of 17 years) is a " meatie " - at least that is what I call him. After joining in with his family for a while and eating what they eat (sausage, yuck!) I found that I gained a few pounds and my cholesterol went up (in just one year!). His family members live into their 90s - his grandpa turns 99 this year - they are farmers and grow corn, soybeans, barley, etc. - my hubby's

cholesterol is normal. That is them - this is me, the lactose intolerant one, who gets acid reflux when she eats meat - so back to the " fruits " - I have been what I might call an instinctutual vegan

or " frugan " (I just made that up) since a very young age when my brother and I tried to make everything out of soybeans (everything). " Fruits " are food and useful too - I don't even really like lots of onions, garlic, and other rooty stuff, go figure. Now to the tough part. I read your recent group posts about animals - but it is just not an issue for me personally - I never decided to eat what I do because of animals - they don't enter my thoughts - I don't want pets, yuck, just don't like wool - (isn't cotton great!) - don't care for leather either - fur, not my thing - hubby bought me one, thanks, but faux works just as good, cheaper too. My point is - I eat fruits, nuts, grains, legumes for health and pleasure. Does that mean I am not vegan? BTW, I cook my beans so I guess am not raw either.Shells

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

So would you also want a separate word for people who don't eat eggs but eat dairy, and another for the other way around. How about people who don't eat fish, but do eat chicken? Or people who avoid food that's coloured yellow? :-)

 

 

BB

Peter

On 15/05/07, Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub wrote:

 

 

 

That's not really specific enough. I mean, just giving up dairy and eggs is considered extreme by most people in our culture, and it necessitates a very different diet than the typical vegetarian diet. My best friend in high school kept bees; I know they benefit crops as well as providing honey. I think there are a lot of people who feel differently about insects than about members of their own phylum.

 

 

 

 

-

peter VV

 

 

 

Tuesday, May 15, 2007 4:40 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

 

If you do have to have " labels " , then I suppose they would be classed as vegetarian, not dietry vegan.

 

The Valley Vegan.............Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub

> wrote:

 

 

 

 

Is there a word for someone who eats no meat, fish, eggs, or dairy, but who does eat honey?

 

 

-

metalscarab

 

 

Monday, May 14, 2007 1:06 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

 

Hi Connie

 

The Vegan Society defines Vegan pretty much as you have. However, they do also use the term " dietary vegan " to apply to those who make those choices purely for their diets, and not in other areas of their life.

 

 

BB

Peter

 

-

connie bell

 

 

 

Monday, May 14, 2007 5:50 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

Hello Shells , Those of us who are Vegan for the sake of the animals are sure glad when anyone does not consume animal products .. I hope I am echoing all opinions and not just my own ... You certainly are vegetarian from what you say of your diet , but Vegan does go further .. So by definition a vegan is someone who " eats a plant-based diet free from all animal products, including milk, eggs and honey. " Vegans has also come to mean someone who does not wear leather, wool or silk and someone who uses no products containing any animal byproducts or is currently tested on animals .. example I use no cleaning products, makeup, etc that contain any animal ingredient and is not tested on animals .. So I really don't know if you are Vegan , but I am happy you have chosen not to eat animals .. be well Connie

sbibeau <sbibeau wrote:

 

Greetings,I am new here. I joined a few vegan groups hoping to discuss my favorite topic - food! which to me is mostly fruits, grains, nuts, seeds, legumes. I have been what I thought was vegan off and on much of my life. My womnderful husband (of 17 years) is a " meatie " - at least that is what I call him. After joining in with his family for a while and eating what they eat (sausage, yuck!) I found that I gained a few pounds and my cholesterol went up (in just one year!). His family members live into their 90s - his grandpa turns 99 this year - they are farmers and grow corn, soybeans, barley, etc. - my hubby's

cholesterol is normal. That is them - this is me, the lactose intolerant one, who gets acid reflux when she eats meat - so back to the " fruits " - I have been what I might call an instinctutual vegan

or " frugan " (I just made that up) since a very young age when my brother and I tried to make everything out of soybeans (everything). " Fruits " are food and useful too - I don't even really like lots of onions, garlic, and other rooty stuff, go figure. Now to the tough part. I read your recent group posts about animals - but it is just not an issue for me personally - I never decided to eat what I do because of animals - they don't enter my thoughts - I don't want pets, yuck, just don't like wool - (isn't cotton great!) - don't care for leather either - fur, not my thing - hubby bought me one, thanks, but faux works just as good, cheaper too. My point is - I eat fruits, nuts, grains, legumes for health and pleasure. Does that mean I am not vegan? BTW, I cook my beans so I guess am not raw either.Shells

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Jo

 

 

> If someone is an ethical vegan they would logically treat all living animals the same way - why

> would it be alright to exploit insects?

 

It would be what Peter Singer calls Speciesism....

 

BB

Peter

 

[Guest guest]

I'd suggest you visit the vegan society web site to read about the harm done in the production of honey.

 

And as to all your other comments - I would happily kill anything (including a human) who threatened my life or health, or the life or health of those I love. It has nothing to do with species at all!

 

Peter

 

-

Oom Yaaqub

Wednesday, May 16, 2007 5:26 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

Well, if a vegan does have a companion animal, particularly a dog or cat, isn't he obligated to treat the animal for fleas? Even if you don't believe in companion animals, wouldn't you pull a tick off yourself and in all probability kill it? Would you stop using candles (even ones not made of beeswax) for fear a moth might fly into the flame? Will you stop eating cereals such as oatmeal since the FDA allows a certain amount of contamination with mealworms? If it's okay to KILL or risk the killing of arthropods in such cases, I'm not sure how it would it be wrong to collect honey from domesticated bees. I'm not even sure the word "exploit" has any real meaning when you are talking about bees, any more than when you talk about trees. There really ARE some meaningful distinctions between species, certainly between entire phyla. What if your child was infected with hookworm or some other parasite--those are animals too, but you would certainly not withhold treatment.

 

 

 

 

-

Peter Kebbell

Wednesday, May 16, 2007 4:15 AM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

 

Hi Jo

 

 

> If someone is an ethical vegan they would logically treat all living animals the same way - why

> would it be alright to exploit insects?

 

It would be what Peter Singer calls Speciesism....

 

BB

Peter

 

[Guest guest]

i knew someone who ate green M & M's and considered those his vegetables...

M & Matarian?

Peter Kebbell May 16, 2007 4:14 AM Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

So would you also want a separate word for people who don't eat eggs but eat dairy, and another for the other way around. How about people who don't eat fish, but do eat chicken? Or people who avoid food that's coloured yellow? :-)

 

BB

Peter

There is power in a factory, power in the land

Power in the hands of a worker

But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand

There is power in a Union

Now the lessons of the past were all learned with workers' blood

The mistakes of the bosses we must pay for

From the cities and the farmlands to trenches full of mud

War has always been the bosses' way, sir

[Guest guest]

[[ I would happily kill anything (including a human) who threatened my life or health, or the life or health of those I love. It has nothing to do with species at all!]]

 

I realizes there are situations in which you might have to kill a human being in self-defense. But come on, if you did so you wouldn't feel the same way as if you had applied flea dip to your dog! You would expect to have to answer to some sort of inquiry and you would definitely feel strange about having killed a person, no matter how justified it was.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

LOL - it would.

 

BBJo

 

-

Peter Kebbell

Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:15 AM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

Hi Jo

 

 

> If someone is an ethical vegan they would logically treat all living animals the same way - why

> would it be alright to exploit insects?

 

It would be what Peter Singer calls Speciesism....

 

BB

Peter

 

[Guest guest]



LOL.

 

I know so many vegetarians who never think to find out what the ingredients of sweets and chocolate bars are. They assume that if something doesn't have meat in it it is vegetarian! This recent announcement about Mars bars has caused a stir, and given me a chance to say that a lot of confectionary is not veggie.

 

Jo

 

-

fraggle

Wednesday, May 16, 2007 6:12 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

i knew someone who ate green M & M's and considered those his vegetables...

M & Matarian?

Peter Kebbell May 16, 2007 4:14 AM Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

So would you also want a separate word for people who don't eat eggs but eat dairy, and another for the other way around. How about people who don't eat fish, but do eat chicken? Or people who avoid food that's coloured yellow? :-)

 

BB

Peter

There is power in a factory, power in the land

Power in the hands of a worker

But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand

There is power in a Union

Now the lessons of the past were all learned with workers' blood

The mistakes of the bosses we must pay for

From the cities and the farmlands to trenches full of mud

War has always been the bosses' way, sir

[Guest guest]

Obviously you are right about having to answer to the legal system, but I don't see that you would necessarily feel any different.

 

Jo

 

-

Oom Yaaqub

Wednesday, May 16, 2007 6:27 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

[[ I would happily kill anything (including a human) who threatened my life or health, or the life or health of those I love. It has nothing to do with species at all!]]

 

I realizes there are situations in which you might have to kill a human being in self-defense. But come on, if you did so you wouldn't feel the same way as if you had applied flea dip to your dog! You would expect to have to answer to some sort of inquiry and you would definitely feel strange about having killed a person, no matter how justified it was.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Oom

 

I'm really not quite sure where you're trying to go with this, as you currently seem to be taking an approach I would expect from most people who try to antagonise vegans... which isn't what I'd expect on a vegan list. As such, I'm going to make this my last answer on the subject.

 

Whether or not I would face an inquiry (which I undoubtedly would if I killed a human), that would not make any difference to how I felt about my actions. If I saved the life of someone I loved, I wouldn't have any twinge of remorse at having taken any other life. If I did it for my own pleasure, I doubt I would be able to live with myself... which is why I live my life trying to do as little harm to all living beings as is possible in the society in which we live.

 

Peter

 

-

Oom Yaaqub

Wednesday, May 16, 2007 6:27 PM

Re: Argh! Newbie intro & help - vegan definition

 

 

[[ I would happily kill anything (including a human) who threatened my life or health, or the life or health of those I love. It has nothing to do with species at all!]]

 

I realizes there are situations in which you might have to kill a human being in self-defense. But come on, if you did so you wouldn't feel the same way as if you had applied flea dip to your dog! You would expect to have to answer to some sort of inquiry and you would definitely feel strange about having killed a person, no matter how justified it was.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

[[Are you trying to dissuade people from trying their best to be kind, just because you feel it is impossible?]]

 

Not in the least--the very opposite. I think we should encourage kindness but please understand something: if you carry what you've said to its logical conclusion, then even seeing eye dogs and other service animals should be banned. And very frankly, that would invite practically everybody to turn against the whole movement because they would recognize that as CRUEL, not kind. If I'm misinterpreting, please tell me so, but that's what it sounds like you are saying. The partnership between people and animals is an ancient one that isn't necessarily exploitation. The animals give every indication of loving not only the relationship or the food, but the job assigned to them, every bit as much as many humans enjoy their job. I just don't get this stuff about "exploitation" in those cases in which the relationship is two-way. There are plenty of people on record who have literally, like the proverbial good shepherd, given their life from their sheep (dog, cat, horse, etc.) I became a vegetarian and then a 'semi-vegan" because I LOVED animals. When you love something you want to be around the object of your love. You don't want to worship him/her from afar, especially when that worship is based on utterly false, sentimental beliefs about his or her nature.

 

 

[Guest guest]

[[ I have never enjoyed my job.

 

Jo]]

 

That's unfortunate--but who could argue that the world of work has become a joyless, soul-killing thing for way too many? When people find a job they love, they are very, very lucky. I'm an accountant but I wish I could earn enough doing something like being a baker or hand weaver, etc. I've seen plenty of animals that DO obviously love their jobs, and they are the lucky ones. Sometimes I think they are smarter, too, because unlike people, there are things they just won't do.

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk

 

> some of my naive questions..

 

Good questions - I'll answer as much as I can from limited experience:

 

> Are they trained in a gentle manner?

> Are they forced to do certain things?

 

They are trained gently. Only a handful of those selected for training will

become seeing-eye dogs - those who have the " right temperament " . Ones which

are too energetic or mischeivous will be sold on as pets.

 

> Do they have the right to act like a playful puppy

> or do they have to be " On Duty " all of the time.

 

They have to be " on duty " whenever their human needs them to be. When their

humans are at work, they will most likely spend most of their time sleeping

under the desk as they are not allowed to cause disruption in offices etc.

So, they have to work for much longer than would be acceptable for humans.

When their humans are " around the home " , they are usually left to play, as a

blind person will obviously be able to get around their own home without any

help!

 

> What happens to them after no longer useful?

> Are they important, only as long as they are useful to

> a human?

 

I'm not sure if there's any particular scheme for dealing with elderly

seeing eye dogs. Considering the bonds that the blind have for their dogs,

I'd be very surprised if they'd let them be killed, so I suspect they're

given to people to look after in their old age.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

At 9:02 AM +0100 5/18/07, metalscarab wrote:

>Hi Anouk

>

>> some of my naive questions..

>> What happens to them after no longer useful?

>> Are they important, only as long as they are useful to

>> a human?

>

>I'm not sure if there's any particular scheme for dealing with elderly

>seeing eye dogs. Considering the bonds that the blind have for their dogs,

>I'd be very surprised if they'd let them be killed, so I suspect they're

>given to people to look after in their old age.

 

I know a friend of a friend who raised a service puppy that she was

very attached to, and when the person died? (or no longer needed the

dog?) the friend was able to adopt him. The responsible dog people

that I've known or known of will all take back a dog when necessary

and find a new home. My neighbors found a lovely dog through one of

the rescue groups; I know this group keeps tabs on dogs that have

been adopted and will find new homes for them when needed.