Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

[Guest guest]

.... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-)

 

Jo

 

Flag-burning could become crime

 

 

 

 

 

By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live

 

 

 

 

 

Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests

Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned.

The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions.

 

They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur.

He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations.

Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode

 

 

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur

 

 

"There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said.

"That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds.

"The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people.

 

"If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode."

He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal".

 

Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces.

He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil.

The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements.

These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law.

 

 

 

 

 

The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests

"Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General.

 

"We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November."

Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law.

He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities.

But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions.

Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil.

The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement.

 

[Guest guest]

I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think? You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways ) Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying. The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: ... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-) Jo Flag-burning could become crime By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned. The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions. They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur. He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations. Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators. If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting

away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur "There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said. "That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds. "The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people. "If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode." He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal".

Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces. He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil. The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements. These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law. The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests "Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General. "We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November." Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law. He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities.

But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions. Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil. The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement. Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo

 

It already is illegal to cover your face in a demonstration under the Criminal Justice Act... surely you remember the hunt sab who we picked up that time who'd been arrested for exactly that, and then dumped by the police 5 miles away?

 

 

Interesting that Muslim Women are excluded - presumably that would mean anyone with a religious reason for covering there face could claim religious discrimination....

 

BB

Peter

On 28/10/06, jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-)

 

Jo

 

Flag-burning could become crime

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests

Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned.

The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions.

 

They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur.

He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations.

Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode

 

 

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur

 

 

" There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient, " he said.

" That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds.

" The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people.

 

" If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode. "

He said police wanted " a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal " .

 

Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces.

He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil.

The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements.

These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law.

 

 

 

 

 

The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests

" Everything is on the table, " said a source close to the Attorney General.

 

" We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November. "

Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law.

He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities.

But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions.

Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil.

The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement.

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

I think people should be allowed to dress how they want to - I din't think it is up to anyone else to tell me how I should dress, so I don't see why I should tell others how they should dress. If someone wants to cover their face, for whatever reason, that is up to them.

 

 

When you talk of " integration " , are you suggesting that all of us should be wearing " traditional English costume " , or something? Perhaps men should always wear suits and ties? Perhaps women shouldn't be allowed to wear trousers? I dunno - just intrigued as to where you'd draw the line between " personal freedom " and " integration " ?

 

 

In terms of getting served in an off licence - that is because it is illegal to sell alcohol to people under 18, and there is no way of telling age when someone is wearing a crash helmet - so the shop keeper is simply protecting themselves. I've never seen anyone with a muslim face covering attempt to get served in an off licence, but it would certainly be suspicious if they did, since consuming and purchasing alcohol is against Islamic law, and therefore anyone Islamic enough to want to cover their face for religious reasons wouldn't be likely to be buying alcohol!!

 

BB

Peter

On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

 

I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think?

 

You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways )

 

Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying.

 

The Valley Vegan............. jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-)

 

Jo

 

Flag-burning could become crime

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live

 

 

 

 

 

Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests

Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned.

The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions.

 

They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur.

He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations.

Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode

 

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur

 

 

" There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient, " he said.

" That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds.

" The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people.

 

" If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode. "

He said police wanted " a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal " .

 

Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces.

He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil.

The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements.

These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law.

 

 

 

 

 

The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests

" Everything is on the table, " said a source close to the Attorney General.

 

" We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November. "

Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law.

He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities.

But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions.

 

Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil.

The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement.

 

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Sorry Peter but I think that is a bit naive, in some areas you walk into an off liscence / bank wearing a skid lid or a balaclava, and they assume the worse, and a lot of places will not serve people wearing them, some even have signs.. I take your point about integration, and personal freedom, it is a tricky area. I just think that in these troubled times, for the sake of security etc, they should not take offence at airports etc, when asked to remove the covering to check passports etc. My colleague in work was flying abroad and a lady wearing one created such a huge fuss that she was nearly banned from the flight until she agreed to take it off for a woman security guard. The Valley Vegan............. ter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter I think people should be allowed to dress how they want to - I din't think it is up to anyone else to tell me how I should dress, so I don't see why I should tell others how they should dress. If someone wants to cover their face, for whatever reason, that is up to them. When you talk of "integration", are you suggesting that all of us should be wearing "traditional English costume", or something? Perhaps men should always wear suits and ties? Perhaps women shouldn't be allowed to wear trousers? I dunno - just intrigued as to where you'd draw the line between "personal freedom" and "integration"? In terms of getting served in an off licence - that is because it is illegal to sell alcohol to people under 18, and there is no way of telling age when someone is wearing a crash helmet - so the

shop keeper is simply protecting themselves. I've never seen anyone with a muslim face covering attempt to get served in an off licence, but it would certainly be suspicious if they did, since consuming and purchasing alcohol is against Islamic law, and therefore anyone Islamic enough to want to cover their face for religious reasons wouldn't be likely to be buying alcohol!! BB Peter On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think? You try getting served in an

off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways ) Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying. The Valley Vegan............. jo <jo.heartwork wrote: ...

and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-) Jo Flag-burning could become crime By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked

global protests Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned. The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions. They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur. He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations. Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and

abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators. If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur "There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said. "That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds. "The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of

people. "If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode." He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal". Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces. He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil. The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements. These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the

law. The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests "Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General. "We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November." Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law. He caused controversy in August when

he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities. But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions. Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil. The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

There is a big difference between refusing to serve someone wearing a crash helmet, and making a law about people covering their faces.

 

Having worked in shops, I can think of a number of very good reasons why shops won't serve people in crash helmets: not least, because it's virtually impossible to hear what anyone is saying through them. Having worked in a chemist, I am also aware that some businesses are governed by laws which require them to assess whether or not the customer should be in a position to purchase the item they want (such as alcohol, medicine, etc.) and while it is easy to assess the basic mental condition of someone wearing a burka, the same is not true for crash helmets, as they make it very hard to see the eyes, and muffle the voice. I would not have served someone wearing a crash helmet when I worked in a chemists because it would have been a dereliction of my duties to ensur, to the best of my ability, that I was not selling a potentially dangerous substance to someone who would not have been in a position to use the substance wisely (for example, people who were drunk wanting to buy surgical spirit). I think perhaps you should try working in a place where staff are under that sort of legal obligation before making judgements about why such places have certain rules.

 

 

BB

Peter

On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

 

Sorry Peter but I think that is a bit naive, in some areas you walk into an off liscence / bank wearing a skid lid or a balaclava, and they assume the worse, and a lot of places will not serve people wearing them, some even have signs..

 

I take your point about integration, and personal freedom, it is a tricky area. I just think that in these troubled times, for the sake of security etc, they should not take offence at airports etc, when asked to remove the covering to check passports etc. My colleague in work was flying abroad and a lady wearing one created such a huge fuss that she was nearly banned from the flight until she agreed to take it off for a woman security guard.

 

 

The Valley Vegan.............

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Peter

 

I think people should be allowed to dress how they want to - I din't think it is up to anyone else to tell me how I should dress, so I don't see why I should tell others how they should dress. If someone wants to cover their face, for whatever reason, that is up to them.

 

When you talk of " integration " , are you suggesting that all of us should be wearing " traditional English costume " , or something? Perhaps men should always wear suits and ties? Perhaps women shouldn't be allowed to wear trousers? I dunno - just intrigued as to where you'd draw the line between " personal freedom " and " integration " ?

 

In terms of getting served in an off licence - that is because it is illegal to sell alcohol to people under 18, and there is no way of telling age when someone is wearing a crash helmet - so the shop keeper is simply protecting themselves. I've never seen anyone with a muslim face covering attempt to get served in an off licence, but it would certainly be suspicious if they did, since consuming and purchasing alcohol is against Islamic law, and therefore anyone Islamic enough to want to cover their face for religious reasons wouldn't be likely to be buying alcohol!!

BB

Peter

On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

 

I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think?

You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways )

Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying.

 

The Valley Vegan............. jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-)

 

Jo

 

Flag-burning could become crime

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live

 

 

 

 

 

Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests

Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned.

The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions.

 

They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur.

He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations.

Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode

 

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur

 

 

" There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient, " he said.

" That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds.

" The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people.

 

" If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode. "

He said police wanted " a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal " .

 

Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces.

He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil.

The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements.

These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law.

 

 

 

 

 

The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests

" Everything is on the table, " said a source close to the Attorney General.

 

" We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November. "

Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law.

He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities.

But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions.

 

Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil.

The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement.

 

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

 

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

I know that a law was passed to stop hunt sabs covering their faces! and there is a lot of hoo-ha about hoodies. Wearing the full veil is a new thing and not many older muslim women wear it at all. Apparently in Egypt some younger women have started wearing it even though it was never seen a few years ago.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Sunday, October 29, 2006 11:57 AM

Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

 

I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think?

You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways )

Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying.

 

The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

.... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-)

 

Jo

 

Flag-burning could become crime

 

 

 

 

 

By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live

 

 

 

 

 

Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests

Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned.

The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions.

 

They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur.

He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations.

Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode

 

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur

 

 

"There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said.

"That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds.

"The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people.

 

"If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode."

He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal".

 

Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces.

He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil.

The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements.

These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law.

 

 

 

 

 

The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests

"Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General.

 

"We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November."

Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law.

He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities.

But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions.

Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil.

The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement.

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

I do remember that. There's also a lot of trouble about hoodies too.

 

 

BBJo

 

-

Peter Kebbell

Sunday, October 29, 2006 2:31 PM

Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

 

Hi Jo

 

It already is illegal to cover your face in a demonstration under the Criminal Justice Act... surely you remember the hunt sab who we picked up that time who'd been arrested for exactly that, and then dumped by the police 5 miles away?

 

Interesting that Muslim Women are excluded - presumably that would mean anyone with a religious reason for covering there face could claim religious discrimination....

 

BB

Peter

On 28/10/06, jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-)

 

Jo

 

Flag-burning could become crime

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live

 

 

 

 

 

Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests

Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned.

The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions.

 

They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur.

He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations.

Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode

 

 

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur

 

 

"There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said.

"That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds.

"The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people.

 

"If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode."

He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal".

 

Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces.

He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil.

The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements.

These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law.

 

 

 

 

 

The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests

"Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General.

 

"We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November."

Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law.

He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities.

But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions.

Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil.

The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement.

 

[Guest guest]

Do you think that there may be more "muslims" at demos in the future?....it could anger a lot of muslims if that happened. The Valley Vegan...............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Hi Peter I do remember that. There's also a lot of trouble about hoodies too. BBJo ----- Original

Message ----- Peter Kebbell Sunday, October 29, 2006 2:31 PM Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime Hi Jo It already is illegal to cover your face in a demonstration under the Criminal Justice Act... surely you remember the hunt sab who we picked up that time who'd been arrested for exactly that, and then dumped by the police 5 miles away? Interesting that Muslim Women are excluded - presumably that would mean anyone with a religious reason for covering

there face could claim religious discrimination.... BB Peter On 28/10/06, jo <jo.heartwork wrote: ... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-) Jo Flag-burning could become crime By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned. The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions. They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur. He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations. Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators. If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur "There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said. "That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds. "The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people. "If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to

erode." He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal". Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces. He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil. The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements. These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law. The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests "Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General. "We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November." Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law. He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws

could risk criminalising minority communities. But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions. Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil. The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement. Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

My friend in work had a fiend who was a muslim converted by marriage and had to "cover up" and walk behind her husband. He didnt know it but she used to borrow fags from my friend and smoke when he wasnt around. Must be terrible to live like that. My western view I know , but I couldnt comprehend it. The Valley Vegan...............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: I know that a law was passed to stop hunt sabs covering their faces! and there is a lot of hoo-ha about hoodies. Wearing the full veil is a new thing and not many older muslim women wear it at all. Apparently in Egypt some younger women have started wearing it even though it was never seen a few years ago. Jo - peter VV Sunday, October 29, 2006 11:57 AM Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a

more recent tradition I think? You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways ) Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying. The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: ... and so could covering your face on demonstrations

unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-) Jo Flag-burning could become crime By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned. The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions. They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique

Ghaffur. He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations. Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators. If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur "There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said. "That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds. "The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people. "If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode." He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal". Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should

not cover their faces. He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil. The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements. These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law. The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests "Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General. "We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November." Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law. He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities. But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions. Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil. The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Nah, think I will pass on the offer of working in a shop for the time being.I didnt mention chemists or legal obligations, I mentioned offies. I have been told that helmets and balaclavas hide the faces of potential robbers and as such they cannot be identified by either video or in person, and have seen signs in offies in certain rough parts of Birmingham. The Valley Vegan............. Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter There is a big difference between refusing to serve someone wearing a crash helmet, and making a law about people covering their faces. Having worked in shops, I can think of a number of very good reasons why shops won't serve people in crash helmets: not least,

because it's virtually impossible to hear what anyone is saying through them. Having worked in a chemist, I am also aware that some businesses are governed by laws which require them to assess whether or not the customer should be in a position to purchase the item they want (such as alcohol, medicine, etc.) and while it is easy to assess the basic mental condition of someone wearing a burka, the same is not true for crash helmets, as they make it very hard to see the eyes, and muffle the voice. I would not have served someone wearing a crash helmet when I worked in a chemists because it would have been a dereliction of my duties to ensur, to the best of my ability, that I was not selling a potentially dangerous substance to someone who would not have been in a position to use the substance wisely (for example, people who were drunk wanting to buy surgical spirit). I think perhaps you should try working in a place where staff are under that sort of legal obligation before

making judgements about why such places have certain rules. BB Peter On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: Sorry Peter but I think that is a bit naive, in some areas you walk into an off liscence / bank wearing a skid lid or a balaclava, and they assume the worse, and a lot of places will not serve people wearing them, some even have signs.. I take your point about integration, and personal freedom, it is a tricky area. I just think that in these troubled times, for the sake of security etc, they should not take offence at airports etc, when asked to remove the covering to check passports etc. My colleague in work was flying abroad and a lady

wearing one created such a huge fuss that she was nearly banned from the flight until she agreed to take it off for a woman security guard. The Valley Vegan............. ter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter I think people should be allowed to dress how they want to - I din't think it is up to anyone else to tell me how I should dress, so I don't see why I should tell others how they should dress. If someone wants to cover their face, for whatever reason, that is up to them.

When you talk of "integration", are you suggesting that all of us should be wearing "traditional English costume", or something? Perhaps men should always wear suits and ties? Perhaps women shouldn't be allowed to wear trousers? I dunno - just intrigued as to where you'd draw the line between "personal freedom" and "integration"? In terms of getting served in an off licence - that is because it is illegal to sell alcohol to people under 18, and there is no way of telling age when someone is wearing a crash helmet - so the shop keeper is simply protecting themselves. I've never seen anyone with a muslim face covering attempt to get served in an off licence, but it would certainly be suspicious if they did, since consuming and purchasing alcohol is against Islamic law, and therefore anyone Islamic enough to want to cover their face for religious reasons wouldn't be likely to be buying alcohol!! BB Peter On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think? You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways ) Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to

another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying. The Valley Vegan............. jo <jo.heartwork wrote: ... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-) Jo Flag-burning could become crime By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned. The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from

covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions. They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur. He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations. Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators. If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that

[the tolerance of people] starts to erode Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur "There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said. "That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds. "The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people. "If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode." He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal". Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and

marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces. He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil. The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements. These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law. The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests "Everything is on

the table," said a source close to the Attorney General. "We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November." Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law. He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities. But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions. Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no

intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil. The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

I've not noticed any veils in London over the years and other people tell me that it has only been happening recently. Another friend who visits Egypt about ten times a year gave me the information regarding Egypt. She says the only place she knows of where women wore veils, before the last couple of years, is Saudi Arabia.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Sunday, October 29, 2006 7:47 PM

Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

 

My friend in work had a fiend who was a muslim converted by marriage and had to "cover up" and walk behind her husband. He didnt know it but she used to borrow fags from my friend and smoke when he wasnt around. Must be terrible to live like that. My western view I know , but I couldnt comprehend it.

 

The Valley Vegan...............jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

I know that a law was passed to stop hunt sabs covering their faces! and there is a lot of hoo-ha about hoodies. Wearing the full veil is a new thing and not many older muslim women wear it at all. Apparently in Egypt some younger women have started wearing it even though it was never seen a few years ago.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Sunday, October 29, 2006 11:57 AM

Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

 

I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think?

You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways )

Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying.

 

The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

.... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-)

 

Jo

 

Flag-burning could become crime

 

 

 

 

 

By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live

 

 

 

 

 

Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests

Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned.

The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions.

 

They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur.

He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations.

Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode

 

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur

 

 

"There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said.

"That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds.

"The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people.

 

"If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode."

He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal".

 

Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces.

He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil.

The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements.

These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law.

 

 

 

 

 

The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests

"Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General.

 

"We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November."

Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law.

He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities.

But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions.

Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil.

The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement.

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Having been a passenger on a bike for several years in the past, I cannot imagine why anyone would want to keep their helmet on when not actually on the bike - so why wear it into any office or shop?

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Sunday, October 29, 2006 7:53 PM

Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

 

Nah, think I will pass on the offer of working in a shop for the time being.I didnt mention chemists or legal obligations, I mentioned offies.

I have been told that helmets and balaclavas hide the faces of potential robbers and as such they cannot be identified by either video or in person, and have seen signs in offies in certain rough parts of Birmingham.

 

The Valley Vegan.............

Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Peter

 

There is a big difference between refusing to serve someone wearing a crash helmet, and making a law about people covering their faces.

 

Having worked in shops, I can think of a number of very good reasons why shops won't serve people in crash helmets: not least, because it's virtually impossible to hear what anyone is saying through them. Having worked in a chemist, I am also aware that some businesses are governed by laws which require them to assess whether or not the customer should be in a position to purchase the item they want (such as alcohol, medicine, etc.) and while it is easy to assess the basic mental condition of someone wearing a burka, the same is not true for crash helmets, as they make it very hard to see the eyes, and muffle the voice. I would not have served someone wearing a crash helmet when I worked in a chemists because it would have been a dereliction of my duties to ensur, to the best of my ability, that I was not selling a potentially dangerous substance to someone who would not have been in a position to use the substance wisely (for example, people who were drunk wanting to buy surgical spirit). I think perhaps you should try working in a place where staff are under that sort of legal obligation before making judgements about why such places have certain rules.

 

BB

Peter

On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

Sorry Peter but I think that is a bit naive, in some areas you walk into an off liscence / bank wearing a skid lid or a balaclava, and they assume the worse, and a lot of places will not serve people wearing them, some even have signs..

I take your point about integration, and personal freedom, it is a tricky area. I just think that in these troubled times, for the sake of security etc, they should not take offence at airports etc, when asked to remove the covering to check passports etc. My colleague in work was flying abroad and a lady wearing one created such a huge fuss that she was nearly banned from the flight until she agreed to take it off for a woman security guard.

 

The Valley Vegan.............

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Peter

 

I think people should be allowed to dress how they want to - I din't think it is up to anyone else to tell me how I should dress, so I don't see why I should tell others how they should dress. If someone wants to cover their face, for whatever reason, that is up to them.

 

When you talk of "integration", are you suggesting that all of us should be wearing "traditional English costume", or something? Perhaps men should always wear suits and ties? Perhaps women shouldn't be allowed to wear trousers? I dunno - just intrigued as to where you'd draw the line between "personal freedom" and "integration"?

 

In terms of getting served in an off licence - that is because it is illegal to sell alcohol to people under 18, and there is no way of telling age when someone is wearing a crash helmet - so the shop keeper is simply protecting themselves. I've never seen anyone with a muslim face covering attempt to get served in an off licence, but it would certainly be suspicious if they did, since consuming and purchasing alcohol is against Islamic law, and therefore anyone Islamic enough to want to cover their face for religious reasons wouldn't be likely to be buying alcohol!!

BB

Peter

On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

 

I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think?

You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways )

Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying.

 

The Valley Vegan............. jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-)

 

Jo

 

Flag-burning could become crime

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live

 

 

 

 

 

Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests

Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned.

The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions.

 

They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur.

He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations.

Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode

 

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur

 

 

"There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said.

"That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds.

"The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people.

 

"If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode."

He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal".

 

Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces.

He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil.

The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements.

These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law.

 

 

 

 

 

The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests

"Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General.

 

"We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November."

Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law.

He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities.

But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions.

Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil.

The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement.

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

Off licenses have the same sort of responsibilities as chemists - they supply substances which are controlled by law, and for which they have a legal obligation to ensure are not sold to unsuitable people.

 

BB

Peter

On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

 

Nah, think I will pass on the offer of working in a shop for the time being.I didnt mention chemists or legal obligations, I mentioned offies.

I have been told that helmets and balaclavas hide the faces of potential robbers and as such they cannot be identified by either video or in person, and have seen signs in offies in certain rough parts of Birmingham.

 

 

The Valley Vegan.............

 

Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Peter

 

There is a big difference between refusing to serve someone wearing a crash helmet, and making a law about people covering their faces.

 

Having worked in shops, I can think of a number of very good reasons why shops won't serve people in crash helmets: not least, because it's virtually impossible to hear what anyone is saying through them. Having worked in a chemist, I am also aware that some businesses are governed by laws which require them to assess whether or not the customer should be in a position to purchase the item they want (such as alcohol, medicine, etc.) and while it is easy to assess the basic mental condition of someone wearing a burka, the same is not true for crash helmets, as they make it very hard to see the eyes, and muffle the voice. I would not have served someone wearing a crash helmet when I worked in a chemists because it would have been a dereliction of my duties to ensur, to the best of my ability, that I was not selling a potentially dangerous substance to someone who would not have been in a position to use the substance wisely (for example, people who were drunk wanting to buy surgical spirit). I think perhaps you should try working in a place where staff are under that sort of legal obligation before making judgements about why such places have certain rules.

 

BB

Peter

On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

 

Sorry Peter but I think that is a bit naive, in some areas you walk into an off liscence / bank wearing a skid lid or a balaclava, and they assume the worse, and a lot of places will not serve people wearing them, some even have signs..

I take your point about integration, and personal freedom, it is a tricky area. I just think that in these troubled times, for the sake of security etc, they should not take offence at airports etc, when asked to remove the covering to check passports etc. My colleague in work was flying abroad and a lady wearing one created such a huge fuss that she was nearly banned from the flight until she agreed to take it off for a woman security guard.

 

The Valley Vegan.............

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Peter

 

I think people should be allowed to dress how they want to - I din't think it is up to anyone else to tell me how I should dress, so I don't see why I should tell others how they should dress. If someone wants to cover their face, for whatever reason, that is up to them.

 

When you talk of " integration " , are you suggesting that all of us should be wearing " traditional English costume " , or something? Perhaps men should always wear suits and ties? Perhaps women shouldn't be allowed to wear trousers? I dunno - just intrigued as to where you'd draw the line between " personal freedom " and " integration " ?

 

In terms of getting served in an off licence - that is because it is illegal to sell alcohol to people under 18, and there is no way of telling age when someone is wearing a crash helmet - so the shop keeper is simply protecting themselves. I've never seen anyone with a muslim face covering attempt to get served in an off licence, but it would certainly be suspicious if they did, since consuming and purchasing alcohol is against Islamic law, and therefore anyone Islamic enough to want to cover their face for religious reasons wouldn't be likely to be buying alcohol!!

BB

Peter

On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

 

I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think?

You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways )

Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying.

 

The Valley Vegan............. jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-)

 

Jo

 

Flag-burning could become crime

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live

 

 

 

 

 

Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests

Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned.

The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions.

 

They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur.

He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations.

Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode

 

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur

 

 

" There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient, " he said.

" That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds.

" The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people.

 

" If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode. "

He said police wanted " a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal " .

 

Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces.

He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil.

The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements.

These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law.

 

 

 

 

 

The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests

" Everything is on the table, " said a source close to the Attorney General.

 

" We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November. "

Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law.

He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities.

But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions.

 

Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil.

The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement.

 

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

 

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

 

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

wow....all these e-mails are coming thru all messed up..and i'm missing some

 

anyways

curious peter...

do you dress in traditional welsh dress, or only the dress of the english? would you like to be told how to dress?

integrate..with whom? who decides? so, lets just use punks as an example, they shouldn't have been able to dress as they did/do, because its not traditional? they should have integrated and been like everyone else? its only proper, yes?

 

as for the burka..the traditional name is hajib(it changes from region to region)

it is mentioned once in the koran, and that is only for Mohammed's wifes...

the tradition of covering musim women dates from the late 9th century...a hadith was issued for it..

(think of a hadith as a canon law)....

covering womyns isn't just a muslim tradition by the way..read the bible..judaic tradition as well

 

personally, i don't care for it...but, if someone wants to dress like that, of her own free will, then all power to em...whomever they may be....

i just worry about someone being forced into it

but..if someone chooses, and its part of their religion..who cares?

can i tell x-tians not to wear a crucifix? can i tell someone jewish he has to cut those ringlets of hair?

 

fraggle

peter VV Oct 29, 2006 6:57 AM Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think?

You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways )

Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying.

 

The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

.... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-)

 

Jo

 

Flag-burning could become crime

 

 

 

 

 

By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live

 

 

 

 

 

Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests

Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned.

The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions.

 

They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur.

He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations.

Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode

 

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur

 

 

"There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said.

"That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds.

"The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people.

 

"If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode."

He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal".

 

Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces.

He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil.

The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements.

These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law.

 

 

 

 

 

The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests

"Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General.

 

"We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November."

Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law.

He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities.

But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions.

Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil.

The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement.

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

Until lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always

glorify the hunter

[Guest guest]

sorry..that is extremely intolerant and racist..that someone could not wear something

 

maybe no one should wear a kimono? i mean, the japanese did horrible things once...

 

here, they try and stop people from wearing shirts with arabic script...

 

 

peter VV Oct 29, 2006 10:34 AM Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

Sorry Peter but I think that is a bit naive, in some areas you walk into an off liscence / bank wearing a skid lid or a balaclava, and they assume the worse, and a lot of places will not serve people wearing them, some even have signs..

I take your point about integration, and personal freedom, it is a tricky area. I just think that in these troubled times, for the sake of security etc, they should not take offence at airports etc, when asked to remove the covering to check passports etc. My colleague in work was flying abroad and a lady wearing one created such a huge fuss that she was nearly banned from the flight until she agreed to take it off for a woman security guard.

 

The Valley Vegan.............

 

 

As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. William O. Douglas

[Guest guest]

intolerant possibly, but racist?, I`m talking about hiding your identity from others in the name of tradition thats all. If it becomes acceptable, then everyone at demos and rallies will be doing it, where will it end? The Valley Vegan..........fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: sorry..that is extremely intolerant and racist..that someone could not wear something maybe no one should wear a kimono? i mean, the japanese did horrible things once... here, they try and stop people from wearing shirts with arabic script... -----Original

Message----- peter VV Oct 29, 2006 10:34 AM Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime Sorry Peter but I think that is a bit naive, in some areas you walk into an off liscence / bank wearing a skid lid or a balaclava, and they assume the worse, and a lot of places will not serve people wearing them, some even have signs.. I take your point about integration, and personal freedom, it is a tricky area. I just think that in these troubled times, for the sake of security etc, they should not take offence at airports etc, when asked to remove the covering to check passports etc. My colleague in work was flying abroad and a lady wearing one created such a huge fuss that she was nearly banned from the flight until she agreed to take it off for a woman security guard. The Valley Vegan............. As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting

victims of the darkness. William O. Douglas Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

As usual ( puts down his leek and daffodil ), you talk a lot of sense and obviously know an awful lot more than me. So I shall shut up now. Never been a big fan of traditions or conformism.And dont you tell me to read the bible!, I have plenty of other works of fiction thank you. The Valley Vegan.............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: wow....all these e-mails are coming thru all messed up..and i'm missing some anyways curious peter... do you dress in traditional welsh dress, or only the dress of the english? would you like to be told how to dress? integrate..with whom? who decides? so, lets just use punks as an example, they shouldn't have been able to dress as

they did/do, because its not traditional? they should have integrated and been like everyone else? its only proper, yes? as for the burka..the traditional name is hajib(it changes from region to region) it is mentioned once in the koran, and that is only for Mohammed's wifes... the tradition of covering musim women dates from the late 9th century...a hadith was issued for it.. (think of a hadith as a canon law).... covering womyns isn't just a muslim tradition by the way..read the bible..judaic tradition as well personally, i don't care for it...but, if someone wants to dress like that, of her own free will, then all power to em...whomever they may be.... i just worry about someone being forced into it but..if someone chooses, and its part of their religion..who cares? can i tell x-tians not to wear a crucifix? can i tell

someone jewish he has to cut those ringlets of hair? fraggle peter VV Oct 29, 2006 6:57 AM Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think? You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways ) Dont get me wrong, I`m not a

racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying. The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: ... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-) Jo Flag-burning could become crime

By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests Police

chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned. The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions. They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur. He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations. Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators. If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur "There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said. "That

view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds. "The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people. "If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode." He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal". Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces. He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil. The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements. These are being discussed between

ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law. The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests "Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General. "We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November." Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord

Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law. He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities. But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions. Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil. The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Until lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always glorify the hunterPeter H

 

All New Mail – Tired of Vi@gr@! come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you.

[Guest guest]

Yessss, but I have seen an awful lot of underage kids being sold booze ( was one myself once ) I doubt whether they have the same integrity? The Valley Vegan............Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter Off licenses have the same sort of responsibilities as chemists - they supply substances which are controlled by law, and for which they have a legal obligation to ensure are not sold to unsuitable people. BB Peter On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

Nah, think I will pass on the offer of working in a shop for the time being.I didnt mention chemists or legal obligations, I mentioned offies. I have been told that helmets and balaclavas hide the faces of potential robbers and as such they cannot be identified by either video or in person, and have seen signs in offies in certain rough parts of Birmingham. The Valley Vegan............. Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter There is a big difference between refusing to serve someone wearing a crash helmet, and making a law about people covering their faces. Having worked in shops, I can think of a number of very good reasons why shops won't serve people in crash helmets: not least, because it's virtually impossible to hear what anyone is saying through them. Having worked in a chemist, I am also aware that some businesses are governed by laws which require them to assess whether or not the customer should be in a position to purchase the item they want (such as alcohol, medicine, etc.) and while it is easy to assess the basic mental condition of someone wearing a burka, the same is not true for crash helmets, as they make it very hard to see the eyes, and muffle the voice. I would not have served someone wearing a crash helmet when I worked in a chemists because it would have been a dereliction of my duties to ensur, to the best of my ability, that I was not selling a potentially dangerous substance to someone who would not have been in a position to use the substance wisely (for example, people who

were drunk wanting to buy surgical spirit). I think perhaps you should try working in a place where staff are under that sort of legal obligation before making judgements about why such places have certain rules. BB Peter On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: Sorry Peter but I think that is a bit naive, in some areas you walk into an off liscence / bank wearing a skid lid or a balaclava, and they assume the worse, and a lot of places will not serve people wearing them, some even have signs.. I take your point about integration, and personal freedom, it is a tricky area. I just

think that in these troubled times, for the sake of security etc, they should not take offence at airports etc, when asked to remove the covering to check passports etc. My colleague in work was flying abroad and a lady wearing one created such a huge fuss that she was nearly banned from the flight until she agreed to take it off for a woman security guard. The Valley Vegan............. ter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter I think people should be allowed to dress how they want to - I din't think it is up to anyone else to tell me

how I should dress, so I don't see why I should tell others how they should dress. If someone wants to cover their face, for whatever reason, that is up to them. When you talk of "integration", are you suggesting that all of us should be wearing "traditional English costume", or something? Perhaps men should always wear suits and ties? Perhaps women shouldn't be allowed to wear trousers? I dunno - just intrigued as to where you'd draw the line between "personal freedom" and "integration"? In terms of getting served in an off licence - that is because it is illegal to sell alcohol to people under 18, and there is no way of telling age when someone is wearing a crash helmet - so the shop keeper is simply protecting themselves. I've never seen anyone with a muslim face covering attempt to get served in an off licence, but it would certainly be suspicious if they did, since consuming and purchasing alcohol is

against Islamic law, and therefore anyone Islamic enough to want to cover their face for religious reasons wouldn't be likely to be buying alcohol!! BB Peter On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think? You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no

problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways ) Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying. The Valley Vegan............. jo <jo.heartwork wrote: ... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-) Jo Flag-burning could become crime By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack

down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned. The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions. They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur. He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations. Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators. If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur "There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said. "That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds. "The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people. "If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode." He said police

wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal". Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces. He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil. The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements. These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law. The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests "Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General. "We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November." Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law. He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities. But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the

support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions. Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil. The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H

 

All New Mail – Tired of Vi@gr@! come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you.

[Guest guest]

no..i prolly just know different things then you

peter VV Oct 30, 2006 1:54 PM Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

As usual ( puts down his leek and daffodil ), you talk a lot of sense and obviously know an awful lot more than me.

As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. William O. Douglas

[Guest guest]

Then how the hell do I stop all those adverts on myspace? The Valley Vegan...........fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: no..i prolly just know different things then you peter VV Oct 30, 2006 1:54 PM Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime As usual ( puts down his leek and daffodil ), you talk a lot of sense and obviously know an awful lot more than me. As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. William O. Douglas Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

I still don't understand why anyone would want to wear their crash helmet when going into a shop, off licence or office. I always used to take mine off as soon as the bike stopped.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Monday, October 30, 2006 6:56 PM

Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

 

Yessss, but I have seen an awful lot of underage kids being sold booze ( was one myself once ) I doubt whether they have the same integrity?

 

The Valley Vegan............Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Peter

 

Off licenses have the same sort of responsibilities as chemists - they supply substances which are controlled by law, and for which they have a legal obligation to ensure are not sold to unsuitable people.

 

BB

Peter

On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

Nah, think I will pass on the offer of working in a shop for the time being.I didnt mention chemists or legal obligations, I mentioned offies.

I have been told that helmets and balaclavas hide the faces of potential robbers and as such they cannot be identified by either video or in person, and have seen signs in offies in certain rough parts of Birmingham.

 

The Valley Vegan.............

 

Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Peter

 

There is a big difference between refusing to serve someone wearing a crash helmet, and making a law about people covering their faces.

 

Having worked in shops, I can think of a number of very good reasons why shops won't serve people in crash helmets: not least, because it's virtually impossible to hear what anyone is saying through them. Having worked in a chemist, I am also aware that some businesses are governed by laws which require them to assess whether or not the customer should be in a position to purchase the item they want (such as alcohol, medicine, etc.) and while it is easy to assess the basic mental condition of someone wearing a burka, the same is not true for crash helmets, as they make it very hard to see the eyes, and muffle the voice. I would not have served someone wearing a crash helmet when I worked in a chemists because it would have been a dereliction of my duties to ensur, to the best of my ability, that I was not selling a potentially dangerous substance to someone who would not have been in a position to use the substance wisely (for example, people who were drunk wanting to buy surgical spirit). I think perhaps you should try working in a place where staff are under that sort of legal obligation before making judgements about why such places have certain rules.

 

BB

Peter

On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

 

Sorry Peter but I think that is a bit naive, in some areas you walk into an off liscence / bank wearing a skid lid or a balaclava, and they assume the worse, and a lot of places will not serve people wearing them, some even have signs..

I take your point about integration, and personal freedom, it is a tricky area. I just think that in these troubled times, for the sake of security etc, they should not take offence at airports etc, when asked to remove the covering to check passports etc. My colleague in work was flying abroad and a lady wearing one created such a huge fuss that she was nearly banned from the flight until she agreed to take it off for a woman security guard.

 

The Valley Vegan.............

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Peter

 

I think people should be allowed to dress how they want to - I din't think it is up to anyone else to tell me how I should dress, so I don't see why I should tell others how they should dress. If someone wants to cover their face, for whatever reason, that is up to them.

 

When you talk of "integration", are you suggesting that all of us should be wearing "traditional English costume", or something? Perhaps men should always wear suits and ties? Perhaps women shouldn't be allowed to wear trousers? I dunno - just intrigued as to where you'd draw the line between "personal freedom" and "integration"?

 

In terms of getting served in an off licence - that is because it is illegal to sell alcohol to people under 18, and there is no way of telling age when someone is wearing a crash helmet - so the shop keeper is simply protecting themselves. I've never seen anyone with a muslim face covering attempt to get served in an off licence, but it would certainly be suspicious if they did, since consuming and purchasing alcohol is against Islamic law, and therefore anyone Islamic enough to want to cover their face for religious reasons wouldn't be likely to be buying alcohol!!

BB

Peter

On 29/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

 

I agree, I totally disagree with Muslim women being allowed to stay covered all the time. It isnt even a religious necessity, nothing in their Koran( is that their scriptures?), it is a more recent tradition I think?

You try getting served in an off liscence wearing a crash helmet, or a balaclava,( man or woman ) yet if you wear so called traditional dress with just your eyes showing you have no problem (although I suppose they dont drink alcohol? - I dont know, I`m ignorant in their ways )

Dont get me wrong, I`m not a racist, but I think that if you go to another country you should try and integrate with it ( out of respect ), not the other way around as politicians keep saying.

 

The Valley Vegan............. jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.... and so could covering your face on demonstrations unless you are a muslim woman. I reckon there will be a lot more muslim women on demos then, of both sexes :-)

 

Jo

 

Flag-burning could become crime

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By John Pienaar Chief political correspondent for BBC Radio Five Live

 

 

 

 

 

Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad sparked global protests

Police chiefs are urging the government to make flag-burning a new criminal offence, as part of a drive to crack down on Islamic extremists and others preaching violence and religious hate, the BBC has learned.

The proposals also include action to ban demonstrators from covering their faces to avoid police scrutiny, and tougher powers to arrest demonstrators seeking to inflame tensions.

 

They have been drawn up by Scotland Yard, and submitted to the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, by Britain's most senior muslim police chief, Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur.

He is responsible for public order in the capital as commander of central operations.

Mr Ghaffur told BBC Radio Five he was concerned Britain had come to be seen at home and abroad as soft on extremist demonstrators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they [the public] start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that [the tolerance of people] starts to erode

 

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur

 

 

"There appears to be a growing public perception that policing of demonstrations is unduly lenient," he said.

"That view was shared by law-abiding citizens of all backgrounds.

"The reason this is a great country is the tolerance of people.

 

"If they start to see images of people who seem to be 'getting away with it', that starts to erode."

He said police wanted "a change in the law on the burning of flags - to make that illegal".

 

Other proposals included a police power, when approving demonstrations and marches, to attach conditions covering banners and making clear demonstrators should not cover their faces.

He emphasised that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil.

The BBC's Weekend News programme has been told the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is preparing a package of announcements.

These are being discussed between ministers who will decide how far existing public order and anti-terror laws can be used more actively and consider police calls for changes in the law.

 

 

 

 

 

The covering of faces could also become illegal on protests

"Everything is on the table," said a source close to the Attorney General.

 

"We are hoping to announce a national strategy for dealing with these people in November."

Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur, who has been holding details talks with Lord Goldsmith, warned that senior officers would be ready to take a tougher line in dealing with flag-burners and extremists exploiting demonstrations, whether or not ministers decide on early changes in the law.

He caused controversy in August when he warned that new anti-terror laws and policing those laws could risk criminalising minority communities.

But he has now insisted the new proposals would command the support of law-abiding Muslims and others, since they are clearly aimed at extremists trying to stir up hatred and deepen divisions.

Mr Ghaffur made clear there was no intention to interfere with the right, for example, of Muslim women to wear the veil.

The target of police action should be those trying to conceal their identities to frustrate police intelligence gathering and law enforcement.

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

 

Peter H

 

 

 

All New Mail – Tired of Vi@gr@! come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you.

[Guest guest]

which adverts?

are they pop ups, or just part of the page?

if they are pop ups, you need a pop up blocker on your computer

 

peter VV Oct 30, 2006 2:21 PM Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

Then how the hell do I stop all those adverts on myspace?

 

The Valley Vegan...........fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

 

no..i prolly just know different things then you

peter VV Oct 30, 2006 1:54 PM Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

As usual ( puts down his leek and daffodil ), you talk a lot of sense and obviously know an awful lot more than me. As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. William O. Douglas

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. William O. Douglas

[Guest guest]

Oh come on Fraggle - accept the idolatry like a gentleman :-)

 

BBJo

 

-

fraggle

Monday, October 30, 2006 7:18 PM

Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

 

no..i prolly just know different things then you

peter VV Oct 30, 2006 1:54 PM Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

As usual ( puts down his leek and daffodil ), you talk a lot of sense and obviously know an awful lot more than me.

As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. William O. Douglas

[Guest guest]

what, and have some byzantine iconoclast come and destroy me?!

i think not!

jo Oct 30, 2006 2:36 PM Re: Flag Burning Could Become A Crime

 

Oh come on Fraggle - accept the idolatry like a gentleman :-)

 

BBJo

 

-----

As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. William O. Douglas