Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

[Guest guest]

Please don't get cross - this is Vegan Chat and we hope to stay polite.

 

What is noble about being in danger?

 

Jo

 

-

" Jennifer " <veganjennyforlife

 

Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:35 AM

Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

 

 

> If someone said you where wrong for being vegan because God made

> animals for our consumption, would you defend yourself? I feel that

> my husband is doing something good. He is not defined by the war.

> There are hundreds of thousands of military men and woman fighting

> in this stupid war that don't agree with it. And no I wouldn't be

> even more proud if he was in some other institution. The equivalent

> civilian job to what my husband does would be a cruise ship

> navigator and what the hell is noble about that? The only danger

> he'd ever be in was of running out of french roast coffee on the

> bridge.

>

> Jennifer

>

> , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork

> wrote:

> >

> > It's a shame you feel you have to defend him though. MAybe you

> could

> > feel even more proud of his good work ethic if it was in an

> > institution that was not involved in war.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > , " Jennifer " <veganjennyforlife@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > I don't agree with the war. I never have, I never will and I

> hate

> > > the very idea that people are dying for a cause I'm not sure is

> > > worth fighting for. I don't care enough about politics to care

> why

> > > we're at war. I just think it's a waste. Of life, of resources,

> of

> > > many things.

> > >

> > > I'm proud of my husband for his work ethic. The way he takes

> care

> > of

> > > his division. The sailors under him and his family. I think

> serving

> > > his country is a noble calling and that's what I'm proud of. Not

> > > what the military is doing, but my husband's part in the

> military.

> > >

> > > Jennifer

> > >

> > >

> > > , " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I'm working for the us department of defense right now.

> > > > the military. the pentagon. the fbi has my fingerprints

> > > > and everything.

> > > >

> > > > at work, I keep quiet about my opinions and i don't say

> > > > anything.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Thers nothing wrong with being proud of your husband.

> > > > > Being proud of this countries ( unwanted ) military

> > excursuions

> > > > into other countries is another thing.

> > > > > Maybe if you were a pacifist or even a conciencious

> objector,

> > > you

> > > > may view things differently?

> > > > >

> > > > > Peace.

> > > > > The Valley Vegan.................

> > > > > War, what is it good for? absolutely nothing..........

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Yes he keeps the ship going, but it is a military ship? is it armed? what is its purpose? The military is job security, until you are terminated........... Wouldnt you feel happier if he had a job out of the military where you would see more of him , and know that he would be safe? At the end of the day its his concience, and his choice, not yours, so dont take it personally.I hope you are both happy, I realy do.I hope he supports your veganism as much as you support his lifestyle. Peace The Valley Vegan................ Jennifer <veganjennyforlife wrote: His job entails neither fighting nor killing. He's a navigator. He plots courses and keeps the ship from running aground. If the ship where to be attacked, his job would be to

patch pipework so it doesn't sink. It's too tiresome and fruitless to stress about the larger picture when you have no control over it. HE'S doing the right thing for his family, friends and country and if you don't think it's noble, then that's your opinion. You can spend the rest of your life feeling the way you feel about the government and what it does, but regardless of what you think, feel, say or do, the "superpower" of the United States is going to do what it wants to do anyway. And you will have spent all that time being in opposition for no good at all. You'll die having made little to no impact. So why get upset about it? Just be happy with yourself and your life the way it is. As far as I see it, the military is job security, a steady paycheck and free medical, and the rest, I could care less about. Jennifer , peter VV wrote:>> So

you are against war, but proud that your husband is very concientious and has a good work ethic. Fair enough, but doesnt one go against the other if his job entails fighting and killing? Dont get me wrong, this is no criticism of you or him, just trying to understand how you think about these things.> Personally, I see nothing noble about serving in a superpowers forces where the mentality is one of " we do what we want, what we think is right, regardless of your countrys opinion, and whether we are asked/invited or not"> > The Valley Vegan...............> > Jennifer wrote:> > I don't agree with the war. I never have, I never will and I hate > the very idea that people are dying for a cause I'm not sure is > worth fighting for. I don't care enough about politics to care why > we're at war. I just think it's a waste. Of life, of resources, of >

many things. > > I'm proud of my husband for his work ethic. The way he takes care of > his division. The sailors under him and his family. I think serving > his country is a noble calling and that's what I'm proud of. Not > what the military is doing, but my husband's part in the military. > > Jennifer> > > , "Anouk Sickler" > wrote:> >> > I'm working for the us department of defense right now. > > the military. the pentagon. the fbi has my fingerprints > > and everything. > > > > at work, I keep quiet about my opinions and i don't say > > anything. > > > > > > , peter VV wrote:> > >> > > Thers nothing wrong with being proud of your husband.> > > Being proud of this countries ( unwanted

) military excursuions> > into other countries is another thing.> > > Maybe if you were a pacifist or even a conciencious objector, > you> > may view things differently?> > > > > > Peace.> > > The Valley Vegan.................> > > War, what is it good for? absolutely nothing..........> >> > > > > > > To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

I'm vegan. I have nothing against anything other than animal

cruelty. I stay away from politics because it only creates stress.

I'm also Buddhist and all of that sort of nonesense goes against my

nature. I am who I am and I believe what I believe regardless of my

surroundings or circumstances. I'm not anti-war or anti-military

(even though I don't agree with the war for obvious reasons). The

military lifestyle is a comfort to me. My mother, father,

stepfather, uncles and husband were or are in the military. I don't

know any different. So, no I wouldn't be happier if he weren't in

the Navy. I have no say in it anyway. He's been in the Navy for nine

years. We've only been married for 2 1/2 years. His decision was

made long before I knew him. I accept that he has to leave and I'm

used to it. Sure, I'd like him home more, but there's nothing I can

do about that. He's in minimal danger. No more danger than you or I,

really. That's always subject to change, but for now I know he's

safe. His conscience is clear because he believes he's doing a good

thing. I take it personally because I believe that the sacrifice of

service members before him, is the reason why you have the ability

to feel that his job is bad.

 

 

 

, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> Yes he keeps the ship going, but it is a military ship? is it

armed? what is its purpose?

> The military is job security, until you are terminated...........

> Wouldnt you feel happier if he had a job out of the military

where you would see more of him , and know that he would be safe?

> At the end of the day its his concience, and his choice, not

yours, so dont take it personally.I hope you are both happy, I realy

do.I hope he supports your veganism as much as you support his

lifestyle.

>

> Peace

> The Valley Vegan................

>

>

> Jennifer <veganjennyforlife wrote:

> His job entails neither fighting nor killing. He's a navigator.

He

> plots courses and keeps the ship from running aground. If the ship

> where to be attacked, his job would be to patch pipework so it

> doesn't sink. It's too tiresome and fruitless to stress about the

> larger picture when you have no control over it. HE'S doing the

> right thing for his family, friends and country and if you don't

> think it's noble, then that's your opinion. You can spend the rest

> of your life feeling the way you feel about the government and

what

> it does, but regardless of what you think, feel, say or do,

> the " superpower " of the United States is going to do what it wants

> to do anyway. And you will have spent all that time being in

> opposition for no good at all. You'll die having made little to no

> impact. So why get upset about it? Just be happy with yourself and

> your life the way it is. As far as I see it, the military is job

> security, a steady paycheck and free medical, and the rest, I

could

> care less about.

>

> Jennifer

>

>

> , peter VV wrote:

> >

> > So you are against war, but proud that your husband is very

> concientious and has a good work ethic. Fair enough, but doesnt

one

> go against the other if his job entails fighting and killing? Dont

> get me wrong, this is no criticism of you or him, just trying to

> understand how you think about these things.

> > Personally, I see nothing noble about serving in a superpowers

> forces where the mentality is one of " we do what we want, what we

> think is right, regardless of your countrys opinion, and whether

we

> are asked/invited or not "

> >

> > The Valley Vegan...............

> >

> > Jennifer wrote:

> >

> > I don't agree with the war. I never have, I never will and I

hate

> > the very idea that people are dying for a cause I'm not sure is

> > worth fighting for. I don't care enough about politics to care

why

> > we're at war. I just think it's a waste. Of life, of resources,

of

> > many things.

> >

> > I'm proud of my husband for his work ethic. The way he takes

care

> of

> > his division. The sailors under him and his family. I think

> serving

> > his country is a noble calling and that's what I'm proud of. Not

> > what the military is doing, but my husband's part in the

military.

> >

> > Jennifer

> >

> >

> > , " Anouk Sickler "

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > I'm working for the us department of defense right now.

> > > the military. the pentagon. the fbi has my fingerprints

> > > and everything.

> > >

> > > at work, I keep quiet about my opinions and i don't say

> > > anything.

> > >

> > >

> > > , peter VV wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Thers nothing wrong with being proud of your husband.

> > > > Being proud of this countries ( unwanted ) military

excursuions

> > > into other countries is another thing.

> > > > Maybe if you were a pacifist or even a conciencious

objector,

> > you

> > > may view things differently?

> > > >

> > > > Peace.

> > > > The Valley Vegan.................

> > > > War, what is it good for? absolutely nothing..........

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > To send an email to -

>

> >

[Guest guest]

By noble I mean " self-sacrificing " . His ship is the equivalent of a

police officer's patrol in a city. Do you value what police officers

contribute? He does the same thing, only on the open ocean. I think

that's noble.

 

Jennifer

 

 

, " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> Please don't get cross - this is Vegan Chat and we hope to stay

polite.

>

> What is noble about being in danger?

>

> Jo

>

> -

> " Jennifer " <veganjennyforlife

>

> Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:35 AM

> Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

>

>

> > If someone said you where wrong for being vegan because God made

> > animals for our consumption, would you defend yourself? I feel

that

> > my husband is doing something good. He is not defined by the

war.

> > There are hundreds of thousands of military men and woman

fighting

> > in this stupid war that don't agree with it. And no I wouldn't

be

> > even more proud if he was in some other institution. The

equivalent

> > civilian job to what my husband does would be a cruise ship

> > navigator and what the hell is noble about that? The only danger

> > he'd ever be in was of running out of french roast coffee on the

> > bridge.

> >

> > Jennifer

> >

> > , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > It's a shame you feel you have to defend him though. MAybe

you

> > could

> > > feel even more proud of his good work ethic if it was in an

> > > institution that was not involved in war.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > , " Jennifer "

<veganjennyforlife@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I don't agree with the war. I never have, I never will and I

> > hate

> > > > the very idea that people are dying for a cause I'm not sure

is

> > > > worth fighting for. I don't care enough about politics to

care

> > why

> > > > we're at war. I just think it's a waste. Of life, of

resources,

> > of

> > > > many things.

> > > >

> > > > I'm proud of my husband for his work ethic. The way he takes

> > care

> > > of

> > > > his division. The sailors under him and his family. I think

> > serving

> > > > his country is a noble calling and that's what I'm proud of.

Not

> > > > what the military is doing, but my husband's part in the

> > military.

> > > >

> > > > Jennifer

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , " Anouk Sickler "

<zurumato@>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm working for the us department of defense right now.

> > > > > the military. the pentagon. the fbi has my fingerprints

> > > > > and everything.

> > > > >

> > > > > at work, I keep quiet about my opinions and i don't say

> > > > > anything.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , peter VV <swpgh01@>

wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thers nothing wrong with being proud of your husband.

> > > > > > Being proud of this countries ( unwanted ) military

> > > excursuions

> > > > > into other countries is another thing.

> > > > > > Maybe if you were a pacifist or even a conciencious

> > objector,

> > > > you

> > > > > may view things differently?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Peace.

> > > > > > The Valley Vegan.................

> > > > > > War, what is it good for? absolutely nothing..........

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > To send an email to -

 

> >

[Guest guest]

All I asked was why it was wrong to support my husband because he's

in the military. I really don't see what being me being vegan has to

do with him being in the Navy. That question was never answered. All

I got was a large number of you telling me I was wrong to support

him. That kind of goes against the entire military family dynamic

and is a large part of why we stick together so much. We're really

not understood in the civilian world. It's hard watching your loved

one go and then be told, they're basically wasting their time and

lives. Do you feel that what you do for a living is bad or

worthless? Probably not.

 

Jennifer

 

 

, " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> You did ask for opinions - and there will be many, so don't be

surprised.

> What was your reason for asking?

>

> Jo

>

> -

> " Jennifer " <veganjennyforlife

>

> Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:24 AM

> Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

>

>

> > His job entails neither fighting nor killing. He's a navigator.

He

> > plots courses and keeps the ship from running aground. If the

ship

> > where to be attacked, his job would be to patch pipework so it

> > doesn't sink. It's too tiresome and fruitless to stress about the

> > larger picture when you have no control over it. HE'S doing the

> > right thing for his family, friends and country and if you don't

> > think it's noble, then that's your opinion. You can spend the

rest

> > of your life feeling the way you feel about the government and

what

> > it does, but regardless of what you think, feel, say or do,

> > the " superpower " of the United States is going to do what it

wants

> > to do anyway. And you will have spent all that time being in

> > opposition for no good at all. You'll die having made little to

no

> > impact. So why get upset about it? Just be happy with yourself

and

> > your life the way it is. As far as I see it, the military is job

> > security, a steady paycheck and free medical, and the rest, I

could

> > care less about.

> >

> > Jennifer

> >

> >

> > , peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > >

> > > So you are against war, but proud that your husband is very

> > concientious and has a good work ethic. Fair enough, but doesnt

one

> > go against the other if his job entails fighting and killing?

Dont

> > get me wrong, this is no criticism of you or him, just trying to

> > understand how you think about these things.

> > > Personally, I see nothing noble about serving in a

superpowers

> > forces where the mentality is one of " we do what we want, what

we

> > think is right, regardless of your countrys opinion, and whether

we

> > are asked/invited or not "

> > >

> > > The Valley Vegan...............

> > >

> > > Jennifer <veganjennyforlife@> wrote:

> > >

> > > I don't agree with the war. I never have, I never will and I

hate

> > > the very idea that people are dying for a cause I'm not sure is

> > > worth fighting for. I don't care enough about politics to care

why

> > > we're at war. I just think it's a waste. Of life, of

resources, of

> > > many things.

> > >

> > > I'm proud of my husband for his work ethic. The way he takes

care

> > of

> > > his division. The sailors under him and his family. I think

> > serving

> > > his country is a noble calling and that's what I'm proud of.

Not

> > > what the military is doing, but my husband's part in the

military.

> > >

> > > Jennifer

> > >

> > >

> > > , " Anouk Sickler "

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I'm working for the us department of defense right now.

> > > > the military. the pentagon. the fbi has my fingerprints

> > > > and everything.

> > > >

> > > > at work, I keep quiet about my opinions and i don't say

> > > > anything.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , peter VV wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Thers nothing wrong with being proud of your husband.

> > > > > Being proud of this countries ( unwanted ) military

excursuions

> > > > into other countries is another thing.

> > > > > Maybe if you were a pacifist or even a conciencious

objector,

> > > you

> > > > may view things differently?

> > > > >

> > > > > Peace.

> > > > > The Valley Vegan.................

> > > > > War, what is it good for? absolutely nothing..........

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

> >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Jennifer

 

>It's too tiresome and fruitless to stress about the

>larger picture when you have no control over it. HE'S doing the

>right thing for his family, friends and country and if you don't

>think it's noble, then that's your opinion. You can spend the rest

>of your life feeling the way you feel about the government and what

>it does, but regardless of what you think, feel, say or do,

>the " superpower " of the United States is going to do what it wants

>to do anyway. And you will have spent all that time being in

>opposition for no good at all. You'll die having made little to no

>impact.

 

It's just as well that all those people who have fought for improvements in human rights in the past didn't think that way. Heck, if everyone had thought that way, most of us on this list would still be serfs, having to work on farms to keep our masters wealthy. None of us would have the vote, and we would still be ruled over by absolute monarchies. Women would be considered the property of their husbands, and most men the property of their landlords. We certainly wouldn't be allowed to be having conversations over e-mail.

 

 

To suggest that fighting against powerful people when they are wrong is a huge dis-service to all those who have put their lives on the line to bring you the life you now enjoy. I will continue to stand up to oppressive goverments, protest, and do whatever I can to improve the world.

 

 

With your attitude, the very best you can hope to achieve is absolutely nothing. With my attitude, the very worst that I will achieve will be absolutely nothing - but at least I will have got up off my backside and *tried* to do what is right!

 

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Jennifer

 

> The equivalent civilian job to what my husband does would be a cruise ship

> navigator and what the hell is noble about that? The only danger

> he'd ever be in was of running out of french roast coffee on the bridge.

 

And just what is noble about maintaining a tool of death? I assume, since you're on this list, that you at least sympathise with a vegan ethic - so, I have to ask - do you think the job of maintaining the machines in abattoirs is " noble " as well? Because it's basically the same job - it is maintaining an instrument whose sole purpose is to bring about death. I'm sure that those people who work in abattoirs are also doing what is right for their family.

 

 

What I think is noble is those people who are prepared to stand, unarmed, in front of heavily armed soldiers and police in a protest (and having been there, I can tell you it's bloody scary!). Those who stand up for the basic rights that should be a part of everyone's life, and will put their lives on the line to make a difference. Not those who take orders from insane, egotistical, power crazed madmen like Bush and Blair in order to fight wars over religion, race or oil.

 

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Jennifer

 

>All I asked was why it was wrong to support my husband because he's

>in the military. I really don't see what being me being vegan has to

>do with him being in the Navy. That question was never answered.

 

I don't recall it being asked - but I don't see any connection at all. What you support is what you support. If you ask others how they feel about something, you can generally expect people to answer

 

AllI got was a large number of you telling me I was wrong to supporthim. That kind of goes against the entire military family dynamicand is a large part of why we stick together so much. We're really

not understood in the civilian world. It's hard watching your lovedone go and then be told, they're basically wasting their time andlives. Do you feel that what you do for a living is bad orworthless? Probably not. Jennifer , " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>> You did ask for opinions - and there will be many, so don't be surprised.> What was your reason for asking?>> Jo>> -> " Jennifer " <veganjennyforlife

> < >> Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:24 AM> Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

>>> > His job entails neither fighting nor killing. He's a navigator. He> > plots courses and keeps the ship from running aground. If theship> > where to be attacked, his job would be to patch pipework so it

> > doesn't sink. It's too tiresome and fruitless to stress about the > > larger picture when you have no control over it. HE'S doing the> > right thing for his family, friends and country and if you don't

> > think it's noble, then that's your opinion. You can spend the rest> > of your life feeling the way you feel about the government andwhat> > it does, but regardless of what you think, feel, say or do,

> > the " superpower " of the United States is going to do what it wants> > to do anyway. And you will have spent all that time being in> > opposition for no good at all. You'll die having made little to

no> > impact. So why get upset about it? Just be happy with yourself and> > your life the way it is. As far as I see it, the military is job> > security, a steady paycheck and free medical, and the rest, I

could> > care less about.> >> > Jennifer > >> >> >

, peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > >> > > So you are against war, but proud that your husband is very > > concientious and has a good work ethic. Fair enough, but doesnt

one> > go against the other if his job entails fighting and killing?Dont> > get me wrong, this is no criticism of you or him, just trying to > > understand how you think about these things.

> > > Personally, I see nothing noble about serving in asuperpowers> > forces where the mentality is one of " we do what we want, what we> > think is right, regardless of your countrys opinion, and whether

we> > are asked/invited or not " > > >> > > The Valley Vegan...............> > > > > > Jennifer <veganjennyforlife@> wrote:> > >

> > > I don't agree with the war. I never have, I never will and Ihate> > > the very idea that people are dying for a cause I'm not sure is > > > worth fighting for. I don't care enough about politics to care

why> > > we're at war. I just think it's a waste. Of life, ofresources, of> > > many things.> > > > > > I'm proud of my husband for his work ethic. The way he takes

care> > of> > > his division. The sailors under him and his family. I think> > serving> > > his country is a noble calling and that's what I'm proud of. Not> > > what the military is doing, but my husband's part in the

military.> > >> > > Jennifer> > >> > >> > >

, " Anouk Sickler " > > > wrote:> > > >> > > > I'm working for the us department of defense right now.> > > > the military. the pentagon. the fbi has my fingerprints > > > > and everything.> > > >> > > > at work, I keep quiet about my opinions and i don't say> > > > anything.> > > >> > > >

> > > > , peter VV wrote:> > > > >

> > > > > Thers nothing wrong with being proud of your husband. > > > > > Being proud of this countries ( unwanted ) militaryexcursuions> > > > into other countries is another thing.

> > > > > Maybe if you were a pacifist or even a conciencious objector,> > > you> > > > may view things differently?> > > > >> > > > > Peace.

> > > > > The Valley Vegan.................> > > > > War, what is it good for? absolutely nothing.......... > > > >> > >> > >> > >

> > >> > >> > >> > > To send an email to -> >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Well, your point was valid, even if the delivery was some what less than curtious! Never accept the things you disagree with.Without challenge there is no change. The Valley Vegan................Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Jennifer >It's too tiresome and fruitless to stress about the >larger picture when you have no control over it. HE'S doing the >right thing for his family, friends and country and if you don't >think it's noble, then that's your opinion. You can spend the rest >of your life feeling the way you feel about the government and what >it does, but regardless of what you think, feel, say or do, >the "superpower" of the United States

is going to do what it wants >to do anyway. And you will have spent all that time being in >opposition for no good at all. You'll die having made little to no >impact. It's just as well that all those people who have fought for improvements in human rights in the past didn't think that way. Heck, if everyone had thought that way, most of us on this list would still be serfs, having to work on farms to keep our masters wealthy. None of us would have the vote, and we would still be ruled over by absolute monarchies. Women would be considered the property of their husbands, and most men the property of their landlords. We certainly wouldn't be allowed to be having conversations over e-mail. To suggest that fighting against powerful people when they are wrong is a huge dis-service to all those who have put their lives on the line to bring you the life you now enjoy. I

will continue to stand up to oppressive goverments, protest, and do whatever I can to improve the world. With your attitude, the very best you can hope to achieve is absolutely nothing. With my attitude, the very worst that I will achieve will be absolutely nothing - but at least I will have got up off my backside and *tried* to do what is right! BB Peter Peter H

 

Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now...

[Guest guest]

Hi Jennifer

 

>By noble I mean " self-sacrificing " . His ship is the equivalent of a

>police officer's patrol in a city. Do you value what police officers

>contribute?

 

Generally not. Most of their time is spent trying to prevent people from making legal protest n my experience - and then beating up people who continue to protest.

 

Although I have to disagree anyway, since the main theoretical role of the military is to kill, and as such battleships are armed with the tools necessary to kill. The main theoretical role of the police is to protect the public, and they are rarely armed with tools of death (unless, of course, they're manning animal rights protests!) - the two are almost polar opposites.

 

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Jennifer

 

>I'm also Buddhist and all of that sort of nonesense goes against my

>nature. I am who I am and I believe what I believe regardless of my

>surroundings or circumstances. I'm not anti-war or anti-military

 

How can you possibly be a Buddhist and not be a Pacifist? That's a bit like saying you're a Christian that doesn't believe in Jesus.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

COME ON NOW PEOPLE , PLAY NICE? THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE, ASK QUESTIONS, NOT JUDGE PLEASE?????????????? OH SHIT Caps were on then ! sorry, The Valley Vegan...............Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Jennifer >I'm also Buddhist and all of that sort of nonesense goes against my >nature. I am who I am and I believe what I believe regardless of my >surroundings or circumstances. I'm not anti-war or anti-military How can you possibly be a Buddhist and not be a Pacifist? That's a bit like saying you're a Christian that doesn't believe in Jesus. BB Peter Peter H

 

Try the all-new Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal

[Guest guest]

I guess personally I would have assumed that being a vegan you would hold life sacred , unless you went vegan for purely health reasons?, that is purely my own assumption based on my beliefs, and I in no way want to impose them on anyone. I guess that you would probably be O.K. with him being a butcher or working in an abatoir?, maybe not, it is a question and not a pointed one. you did ask , and start this thread off, so you should expect some answers, even the odd controversy? Hope you both lead a peaceful long and happy life together. The Valley Vegan..............Jennifer <veganjennyforlife wrote: All I asked was why it was wrong to support my husband because he's in the military. I really don't see what being me being vegan has to

do with him being in the Navy. That question was never answered. All I got was a large number of you telling me I was wrong to support him. That kind of goes against the entire military family dynamic and is a large part of why we stick together so much. We're really not understood in the civilian world. It's hard watching your loved one go and then be told, they're basically wasting their time and lives. Do you feel that what you do for a living is bad or worthless? Probably not. Jennifer , "jo" wrote:>> You did ask for opinions - and there will be many, so don't be surprised.> What was your reason for asking?> > Jo> > -> "Jennifer" > > Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:24 AM> Re:

Navy Daze and Vegan Nights> > > > His job entails neither fighting nor killing. He's a navigator. He> > plots courses and keeps the ship from running aground. If the ship> > where to be attacked, his job would be to patch pipework so it> > doesn't sink. It's too tiresome and fruitless to stress about the> > larger picture when you have no control over it. HE'S doing the> > right thing for his family, friends and country and if you don't> > think it's noble, then that's your opinion. You can spend the rest> > of your life feeling the way you feel about the government and what> > it does, but regardless of what you think, feel, say or do,> > the "superpower" of the United States is going to do what it wants> > to do anyway. And you will have spent all that time being in> > opposition for no good at all. You'll die having

made little to no> > impact. So why get upset about it? Just be happy with yourself and> > your life the way it is. As far as I see it, the military is job> > security, a steady paycheck and free medical, and the rest, I could> > care less about.> >> > Jennifer> >> >> > , peter VV wrote:> > >> > > So you are against war, but proud that your husband is very> > concientious and has a good work ethic. Fair enough, but doesnt one> > go against the other if his job entails fighting and killing? Dont> > get me wrong, this is no criticism of you or him, just trying to> > understand how you think about these things.> > > Personally, I see nothing noble about serving in a superpowers> > forces where the mentality is one of " we do what we

want, what we> > think is right, regardless of your countrys opinion, and whether we> > are asked/invited or not"> > >> > > The Valley Vegan...............> > >> > > Jennifer wrote:> > >> > > I don't agree with the war. I never have, I never will and I hate> > > the very idea that people are dying for a cause I'm not sure is> > > worth fighting for. I don't care enough about politics to care why> > > we're at war. I just think it's a waste. Of life, of resources, of> > > many things.> > >> > > I'm proud of my husband for his work ethic. The way he takes care> > of> > > his division. The sailors under him and his family. I think> > serving> > > his country is a noble calling and that's what I'm proud of.

Not> > > what the military is doing, but my husband's part in the military.> > >> > > Jennifer> > >> > >> > > , "Anouk Sickler"> > > wrote:> > > >> > > > I'm working for the us department of defense right now.> > > > the military. the pentagon. the fbi has my fingerprints> > > > and everything.> > > >> > > > at work, I keep quiet about my opinions and i don't say> > > > anything.> > > >> > > >> > > > , peter VV wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Thers nothing wrong with being proud of your husband.> > > > > Being proud of this countries ( unwanted ) military excursuions> > > > into other

countries is another thing.> > > > > Maybe if you were a pacifist or even a conciencious objector,> > > you> > > > may view things differently?> > > > >> > > > > Peace.> > > > > The Valley Vegan.................> > > > > War, what is it good for? absolutely nothing..........> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > To send an email to -> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Jennifer, Arent Buddhists pacifists? I am also surprised that you are not anti war? As you say your family has a long indoctrination in military establishments, and tradition. A lot of the sacrifice you mention, particularly in war times was not choice , but conscription. There is a difference, I believe. Ads for fighting for king and country so to speak, well I personally would refuse, not out of disrespect for previous servicemen sent to their deaths by faceless generals, but because I could not take a life. The Valley Vegan.................Jennifer <veganjennyforlife wrote: I'm vegan. I have nothing against anything other than animal cruelty. I stay away from politics because it only creates stress. I'm also Buddhist and

all of that sort of nonesense goes against my nature. I am who I am and I believe what I believe regardless of my surroundings or circumstances. I'm not anti-war or anti-military (even though I don't agree with the war for obvious reasons). The military lifestyle is a comfort to me. My mother, father, stepfather, uncles and husband were or are in the military. I don't know any different. So, no I wouldn't be happier if he weren't in the Navy. I have no say in it anyway. He's been in the Navy for nine years. We've only been married for 2 1/2 years. His decision was made long before I knew him. I accept that he has to leave and I'm used to it. Sure, I'd like him home more, but there's nothing I can do about that. He's in minimal danger. No more danger than you or I, really. That's always subject to change, but for now I know he's safe. His conscience is clear because he believes he's doing a good thing. I take it

personally because I believe that the sacrifice of service members before him, is the reason why you have the ability to feel that his job is bad. , peter VV wrote:>> Yes he keeps the ship going, but it is a military ship? is it armed? what is its purpose?> The military is job security, until you are terminated...........> Wouldnt you feel happier if he had a job out of the military where you would see more of him , and know that he would be safe?> At the end of the day its his concience, and his choice, not yours, so dont take it personally.I hope you are both happy, I realy do.I hope he supports your veganism as much as you support his lifestyle.> > Peace> The Valley Vegan................> > > Jennifer wrote:> His job entails neither fighting nor killing. He's a navigator.

He > plots courses and keeps the ship from running aground. If the ship > where to be attacked, his job would be to patch pipework so it > doesn't sink. It's too tiresome and fruitless to stress about the > larger picture when you have no control over it. HE'S doing the > right thing for his family, friends and country and if you don't > think it's noble, then that's your opinion. You can spend the rest > of your life feeling the way you feel about the government and what > it does, but regardless of what you think, feel, say or do, > the "superpower" of the United States is going to do what it wants > to do anyway. And you will have spent all that time being in > opposition for no good at all. You'll die having made little to no > impact. So why get upset about it? Just be happy with yourself and > your life the way it is. As far as I see it, the military is job >

security, a steady paycheck and free medical, and the rest, I could > care less about. > > Jennifer> > > , peter VV wrote:> >> > So you are against war, but proud that your husband is very > concientious and has a good work ethic. Fair enough, but doesnt one > go against the other if his job entails fighting and killing? Dont > get me wrong, this is no criticism of you or him, just trying to > understand how you think about these things.> > Personally, I see nothing noble about serving in a superpowers > forces where the mentality is one of " we do what we want, what we > think is right, regardless of your countrys opinion, and whether we > are asked/invited or not"> > > > The Valley Vegan...............> > > > Jennifer wrote:> > > > I don't agree

with the war. I never have, I never will and I hate > > the very idea that people are dying for a cause I'm not sure is > > worth fighting for. I don't care enough about politics to care why > > we're at war. I just think it's a waste. Of life, of resources, of > > many things. > > > > I'm proud of my husband for his work ethic. The way he takes care > of > > his division. The sailors under him and his family. I think > serving > > his country is a noble calling and that's what I'm proud of. Not > > what the military is doing, but my husband's part in the military. > > > > Jennifer> > > > > > , "Anouk Sickler" > > wrote:> > >> > > I'm working for the us department of defense right now. > > > the military. the pentagon.

the fbi has my fingerprints > > > and everything. > > > > > > at work, I keep quiet about my opinions and i don't say > > > anything. > > > > > > > > > , peter VV wrote:> > > >> > > > Thers nothing wrong with being proud of your husband.> > > > Being proud of this countries ( unwanted ) military excursuions> > > into other countries is another thing.> > > > Maybe if you were a pacifist or even a conciencious objector, > > you> > > may view things differently?> > > > > > > > Peace.> > > > The Valley Vegan.................> > > > War, what is it good for? absolutely nothing..........> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > To send an email to -> > >

[Guest guest]

 

 

Hi Jennifer

 

There are a lot of self-sacrificing people around who are not in the army or police force. Is your husband really self-sacrificing. I would have thought that he is doing something he wants to do, which is not self-sacrificing - the only sacrifice is you as you don't see so much of him as if he had another job (maybe).

 

I think the purpose of the police force is also misunderstood. It was invented to protect the rich and powerful. Although there are lots of good, nice police officers around, I do not generally admire the police. Incidentally I have a cousin who is a policeman, and several young chaps from work have gone on to become police officers.

 

Jo

 

>By noble I mean "self-sacrificing". His ship is the equivalent of a

>police officer's patrol in a city. Do you value what police officers

>contribute?

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

I suspect Peter's judgement is based on the fact that he knows a hell of a lot of Buddhists (probably almost as many as me) whose whole lifestyle is geared towards pacifism. In fact, most of them are so pacifist that they even dislike going on a march as a protest. They invented a new section of Buddhism for that. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the group, but we marched side by side with them once.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Monday, October 16, 2006 6:47 PM

Re: Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

 

COME ON NOW PEOPLE , PLAY NICE? THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE, ASK QUESTIONS, NOT JUDGE PLEASE??????????????

 

OH SHIT Caps were on then !

sorry,

The Valley Vegan...............Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Jennifer

 

>I'm also Buddhist and all of that sort of nonesense goes against my

>nature. I am who I am and I believe what I believe regardless of my

>surroundings or circumstances. I'm not anti-war or anti-military

 

How can you possibly be a Buddhist and not be a Pacifist? That's a bit like saying you're a Christian that doesn't believe in Jesus.

 

BB

Peter

Peter H

 

 

 

Try the all-new Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal

[Guest guest]

Still not nice to be judgemental of others, especially new members who are not used to our little idiosyncrasies. The Valley Vegan............om> wrote: Hi Peter I suspect Peter's judgement is based on the fact that he knows a hell of a lot of Buddhists (probably almost as many as me) whose whole lifestyle is geared towards pacifism. In fact, most of them are so pacifist that they even dislike going on a march as a protest. They invented a new section of Buddhism for that. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the group, but we marched side by side with them once. Jo - peter VV Monday, October 16, 2006 6:47 PM Re: Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights COME ON NOW PEOPLE , PLAY NICE? THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE, ASK QUESTIONS, NOT JUDGE PLEASE?????????????? OH SHIT Caps were on then ! sorry, The Valley Vegan...............Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Jennifer >I'm also Buddhist and all of that sort of nonesense goes against my >nature. I am who I am and I believe what I believe regardless of my >surroundings or circumstances. I'm not anti-war or anti-military How can you possibly be a Buddhist and not be a Pacifist? That's a bit like saying you're a Christian that doesn't believe in Jesus. BB Peter Peter H Try the all-new Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

If it is not nice, why are you judging Peter? :-) I cannot see anything wrong or judgemental in stating that Buddhism equates to pacifism, and I don't think there is a collective idiosyncracy within the group - we all have different ones of our own, as will Jennifer.

 

With regard to the 'new member', I find it confrontational to introduce yourself to a new group asking for opinions on a situation that it is obvious will be against the ethic of most people on that group. It is not something I would do.

 

Jennifer is welcome here, and I am pleased for her that she is proud of her husband and supports him. That is her choice, but does not have to be anyone elses. Maybe Jennifer will have other topics to discuss or join in soon.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Monday, October 16, 2006 8:25 PM

Re: Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

 

Still not nice to be judgemental of others, especially new members who are not used to our little idiosyncrasies.

 

The Valley Vegan............om> wrote:

 

Hi Peter

 

I suspect Peter's judgement is based on the fact that he knows a hell of a lot of Buddhists (probably almost as many as me) whose whole lifestyle is geared towards pacifism. In fact, most of them are so pacifist that they even dislike going on a march as a protest. They invented a new section of Buddhism for that. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the group, but we marched side by side with them once.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Monday, October 16, 2006 6:47 PM

Re: Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

 

COME ON NOW PEOPLE , PLAY NICE? THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE, ASK QUESTIONS, NOT JUDGE PLEASE??????????????

 

OH SHIT Caps were on then !

sorry,

The Valley Vegan...............Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Jennifer

 

>I'm also Buddhist and all of that sort of nonesense goes against my

>nature. I am who I am and I believe what I believe regardless of my

>surroundings or circumstances. I'm not anti-war or anti-military

 

How can you possibly be a Buddhist and not be a Pacifist? That's a bit like saying you're a Christian that doesn't believe in Jesus.

 

BB

Peter

Peter H

 

 

 

Try the all-new Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Since you have no clue what ship my husband is on or how it happens

to be armed, its really presumptuous of you to say they're " polar "

opposites.

 

 

, " Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab

wrote:

>

> Hi Jennifer

>

> >By noble I mean " self-sacrificing " . His ship is the equivalent of

a

> >police officer's patrol in a city. Do you value what police

officers

> >contribute?

>

> Generally not. Most of their time is spent trying to prevent

people from

> making legal protest n my experience - and then beating up people

who

> continue to protest.

>

> Although I have to disagree anyway, since the main theoretical

role of the

> military is to kill, and as such battleships are armed with the

> tools necessary to kill. The main theoretical role of the police

is to

> protect the public, and they are rarely armed with tools of death

(unless,

> of course, they're manning animal rights protests!) - the two are

almost

> polar opposites.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

In the UK they are " rarely armed with tools of death " . Here in the US

each officer carries at all times a gun, a billy club, handcuffs and a

tazer. Some police vehicles also contain additional weapons.

 

Here in the US, the police time is spent a lot differently than there

in the UK obviously. Here they are trying to prevent rapes, gang

shootings, making drug busts, finding lost and abducted children,

releasing hostages, chasing criminals, etc etc

 

Don't get me wrong, they harass here too, but our police world is a

lot different than yours. And it varies from state to state, city to

city, district to district, cop to cop. Oak Lawn's police is a lot

different than Chicago's across the street...

 

BB

Nikki - just adding in a different perspective

 

 

, " Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab

wrote:

>

> Hi Jennifer

>

> >By noble I mean " self-sacrificing " . His ship is the equivalent of a

> >police officer's patrol in a city. Do you value what police officers

> >contribute?

>

> Generally not. Most of their time is spent trying to prevent people from

> making legal protest n my experience - and then beating up people who

> continue to protest.

>

> Although I have to disagree anyway, since the main theoretical role

of the

> military is to kill, and as such battleships are armed with the

> tools necessary to kill. The main theoretical role of the police is to

> protect the public, and they are rarely armed with tools of death

(unless,

> of course, they're manning animal rights protests!) - the two are almost

> polar opposites.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo and all,

 

Serious question, not an attack on your words because I am unfamiliar

with the unemployment rate in the UK. Is it very easy to get a job

over there with pay that supports your family, health insurance and

retirement pension?

 

Because to be honest, I never finished college, couldn't afford to and

I am very lucky to have a job where I can barely pay my bills. We do

not go out to eat, our car is about to break down and who knows how

the heck we will get a new one, we don't buy luxury items, last

vacation we went on was 6 years ago and that was only because my

Father begged us to go and paid for the room, my couch is over 40

years old from Robb's parents first marraige and I may very well have

sold a pen to a government man who will use it to write a war order.

But I don't complain too much about it because it is the life I chose

and we make it, barely but we do. We simply do not spend money that we

do not have.

 

Also, we need to remember that your police are very very different

than our police. And our police differ by area as well.

 

Crap, I hate these conversations. All I am trying to do is show

different sides, not taking any one side at all. But it seems there

are more against Jennifer so of course I go with the underdog who does

not know what great people you all are. Probably because she has not

yet had a chance to see it yet because she joined, was open and honest

about who she was, asked for opinions and you gave her very strong

ones. Just being yourselves, I know and there is nothing wrong with

that. But could you all please take a moment and look at it from her side?

 

If it were me in her shoes, I would have went right on the defensive

seeing as you went after the man she loves who provides the food for

her family.

 

*sigh*

I quit

 

BB

Nikki

 

, " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

>

>

> Hi Jennifer

>

> There are a lot of self-sacrificing people around who are not in

the army or police force. Is your husband really self-sacrificing. I

would have thought that he is doing something he wants to do, which is

not self-sacrificing - the only sacrifice is you as you don't see so

much of him as if he had another job (maybe).

>

> I think the purpose of the police force is also misunderstood. It

was invented to protect the rich and powerful. Although there are

lots of good, nice police officers around, I do not generally admire

the police. Incidentally I have a cousin who is a policeman, and

several young chaps from work have gone on to become police officers.

>

> Jo

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Peter! That was all I was trying to say!

 

I am just more long winded than you are. LOL

 

Nikki

 

 

, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> Still not nice to be judgemental of others, especially new members

who are not used to our little idiosyncrasies.

>

> The Valley Vegan............

>

> om> wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> I suspect Peter's judgement is based on the fact that he knows a

hell of a lot of Buddhists (probably almost as many as me) whose whole

lifestyle is geared towards pacifism. In fact, most of them are so

pacifist that they even dislike going on a march as a protest. They

invented a new section of Buddhism for that. Unfortunately I cannot

remember the name of the group, but we marched side by side with them

once.

>

> Jo

[Guest guest]

i dunno nikki

i'd lean more toward peter's assesment in a lot of it....

 

 

>earthstrm <earthstorm

>Oct 17, 2006 3:50 AM

>

> Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

>

>Hi Peter

>

>In the UK they are " rarely armed with tools of death " . Here in the US

>each officer carries at all times a gun, a billy club, handcuffs and a

>tazer. Some police vehicles also contain additional weapons.

>

>Here in the US, the police time is spent a lot differently than there

>in the UK obviously. Here they are trying to prevent rapes, gang

>shootings, making drug busts, finding lost and abducted children,

>releasing hostages, chasing criminals, etc etc

>

>Don't get me wrong, they harass here too, but our police world is a

>lot different than yours. And it varies from state to state, city to

>city, district to district, cop to cop. Oak Lawn's police is a lot

>different than Chicago's across the street...

>

>BB

>Nikki - just adding in a different perspective

>

>

> , " Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab

>wrote:

>>

>> Hi Jennifer

>>

>> >By noble I mean " self-sacrificing " . His ship is the equivalent of a

>> >police officer's patrol in a city. Do you value what police officers

>> >contribute?

>>

>> Generally not. Most of their time is spent trying to prevent people from

>> making legal protest n my experience - and then beating up people who

>> continue to protest.

>>

>> Although I have to disagree anyway, since the main theoretical role

>of the

>> military is to kill, and as such battleships are armed with the

>> tools necessary to kill. The main theoretical role of the police is to

>> protect the public, and they are rarely armed with tools of death

>(unless,

>> of course, they're manning animal rights protests!) - the two are almost

>> polar opposites.

>>

>> BB

>> Peter

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo

 

>I suspect Peter's judgement is based on the fact that he knows a hell of a lot of Buddhists

>(probably almost as many as me) whose whole lifestyle is geared towards pacifism. In fact,

>most of them are so pacifist that they even dislike going on a march as a protest. They

>invented a new section of Buddhism for that. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of

>the group, but we marched side by side with them once.

 

They're " Engaged Buddhists " ... I remember being very confused by their banner, which for quite a while I thought read " Endangered Buddhists " :-)

 

As to Buddhism - the " Noble Eightfold Path " taught by Buddha included: " Right Actions - Wholesome action, avoiding action that would do harm " , and " Right Livelihood - One's job does not harm in any way oneself or others; directly or indirectly (weapon maker, drug dealer, etc.) " I fail to see how that could possibly be interpreted in any other way than pacifism.

 

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

I don't see anything judgemental in what I said. I was pointing out that in order to be Buddhist, one should be pacifist as it is a very clear part of Buddha's teachings. That's no more judgemental than pointing out that in order to be an Iron Maiden fan, one must like heavy metal.

 

 

BB

Peter

On 16/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

 

Still not nice to be judgemental of others, especially new members who are not used to our little idiosyncrasies.

 

The Valley Vegan............om> wrote:

 

Hi Peter

 

I suspect Peter's judgement is based on the fact that he knows a hell of a lot of Buddhists (probably almost as many as me) whose whole lifestyle is geared towards pacifism. In fact, most of them are so pacifist that they even dislike going on a march as a protest. They invented a new section of Buddhism for that. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the group, but we marched side by side with them once.

 

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

 

 

Monday, October 16, 2006 6:47 PM

Re: Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

 

COME ON NOW PEOPLE , PLAY NICE? THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE, ASK QUESTIONS, NOT JUDGE PLEASE??????????????

 

OH SHIT Caps were on then !

sorry,

The Valley Vegan...............Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

 

Hi Jennifer

 

>I'm also Buddhist and all of that sort of nonesense goes against my

>nature. I am who I am and I believe what I believe regardless of my

>surroundings or circumstances. I'm not anti-war or anti-military

 

How can you possibly be a Buddhist and not be a Pacifist? That's a bit like saying you're a Christian that doesn't believe in Jesus.

 

BB

Peter

Peter H

 

 

 

Try the

all-new Mail . " The New Version is radically easier to use " – The Wall Street Journal

 

Peter H

 

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