Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

[Guest guest]

Hi Jennifer

 

>Since you have no clue what ship my husband is on or how it happens

>to be armed, its really presumptuous of you to say they're " polar "

>opposites.

 

Then please do explain how a military vessel can be anything other than designed to kill. That's what the military is there for, that's what their ships are there for. And while I do not know the specifics of your husband's situation, I do have a very good friend who is in the navy, and who is absolutely enthralled by ships of all kind - from conversations with him, I have a pretty good idea of exactly what ships are, and are not, used by the military.

 

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Nikki

 

A good point - I know very little about US police, and can only comment from a UK perspective.

 

BB

Peter

On 17/10/06, earthstrm <earthstorm wrote:

Hi PeterIn the UK they are " rarely armed with tools of death " . Here in the USeach officer carries at all times a gun, a billy club, handcuffs and a

tazer. Some police vehicles also contain additional weapons.Here in the US, the police time is spent a lot differently than therein the UK obviously. Here they are trying to prevent rapes, gangshootings, making drug busts, finding lost and abducted children,

releasing hostages, chasing criminals, etc etcDon't get me wrong, they harass here too, but our police world is alot different than yours. And it varies from state to state, city tocity, district to district, cop to cop. Oak Lawn's police is a lot

different than Chicago's across the street...BBNikki - just adding in a different perspective , " Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab

wrote:>> Hi Jennifer>> >By noble I mean " self-sacrificing " . His ship is the equivalent of a> >police officer's patrol in a city. Do you value what police officers

> >contribute?>> Generally not. Most of their time is spent trying to prevent people from> making legal protest n my experience - and then beating up people who> continue to protest.>

> Although I have to disagree anyway, since the main theoretical roleof the> military is to kill, and as such battleships are armed with the> tools necessary to kill. The main theoretical role of the police is to

> protect the public, and they are rarely armed with tools of death(unless,> of course, they're manning animal rights protests!) - the two are almost> polar opposites.>> BB> Peter

>To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Nikki

 

Hmmm... I think if I joined a list where the main ethic was one of not killing, I wouldn't make my first post one of " hey, my husband's in the military - what do you all think of that? " It seems to me like it was a question specifically designed to cause a reaction, which is one of the main reasons I left it alone for so long.

 

 

BB

Peter

On 17/10/06, earthstrm <earthstorm wrote:

Hi Jo and all,Serious question, not an attack on your words because I am unfamiliarwith the unemployment rate in the UK. Is it very easy to get a job

over there with pay that supports your family, health insurance andretirement pension?Because to be honest, I never finished college, couldn't afford to andI am very lucky to have a job where I can barely pay my bills. We do

not go out to eat, our car is about to break down and who knows howthe heck we will get a new one, we don't buy luxury items, lastvacation we went on was 6 years ago and that was only because myFather begged us to go and paid for the room, my couch is over 40

years old from Robb's parents first marraige and I may very well havesold a pen to a government man who will use it to write a war order.But I don't complain too much about it because it is the life I chose

and we make it, barely but we do. We simply do not spend money that wedo not have.Also, we need to remember that your police are very very differentthan our police. And our police differ by area as well.

Crap, I hate these conversations. All I am trying to do is showdifferent sides, not taking any one side at all. But it seems thereare more against Jennifer so of course I go with the underdog who doesnot know what great people you all are. Probably because she has not

yet had a chance to see it yet because she joined, was open and honestabout who she was, asked for opinions and you gave her very strongones. Just being yourselves, I know and there is nothing wrong withthat. But could you all please take a moment and look at it from her side?

If it were me in her shoes, I would have went right on the defensiveseeing as you went after the man she loves who provides the food forher family.*sigh*I quitBBNikki , " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:>>>> Hi Jennifer>> There are a lot of self-sacrificing people around who are not in

the army or police force. Is your husband really self-sacrificing. Iwould have thought that he is doing something he wants to do, which isnot self-sacrificing - the only sacrifice is you as you don't see so

much of him as if he had another job (maybe).>> I think the purpose of the police force is also misunderstood. Itwas invented to protect the rich and powerful. Although there arelots of good, nice police officers around, I do not generally admire

the police. Incidentally I have a cousin who is a policeman, andseveral young chaps from work have gone on to become police officers.>> Jo>To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

unless one just has a thing fer Eddie

hee hee

Peter Kebbell Oct 17, 2006 8:54 AM Re: Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

Hi Peter

 

I don't see anything judgemental in what I said. I was pointing out that in order to be Buddhist, one should be pacifist as it is a very clear part of Buddha's teachings. That's no more judgemental than pointing out that in order to be an Iron Maiden fan, one must like heavy metal.

As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. William O. Douglas

[Guest guest]

Well , she sure got a reaction, and you sure aint leaving it alone now! The Valley Vegan............Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Nikki Hmmm... I think if I joined a list where the main ethic was one of not killing, I wouldn't make my first post one of "hey, my husband's in the military - what do you all think of that?" It seems to me like it was a question specifically designed to cause a reaction, which is one of the main reasons I left it alone for so long. BB Peter On 17/10/06, earthstrm <earthstorm wrote: Hi Jo and all,Serious question, not an attack on your words because I am unfamiliarwith the unemployment rate in the UK. Is it very easy to get a job over there with pay that supports your family, health insurance andretirement pension?Because to be honest, I never finished college, couldn't afford to andI am very lucky to have a job where I can barely pay my bills. We do not go out to eat, our car is about to break down and who knows howthe heck we will get a new one, we don't buy luxury items, lastvacation we went on was 6 years ago and that was only because myFather begged us to go and paid for the room, my couch is over 40 years old from Robb's parents first marraige and I may very well havesold a pen to a government man who will use it to write a war order.But I don't complain too much about it because it is the life I

choseand we make it, barely but we do. We simply do not spend money that wedo not have.Also, we need to remember that your police are very very differentthan our police. And our police differ by area as well.Crap, I hate these conversations. All I am trying to do is showdifferent sides, not taking any one side at all. But it seems thereare more against Jennifer so of course I go with the underdog who doesnot know what great people you all are. Probably because she has not yet had a chance to see it yet because she joined, was open and honestabout who she was, asked for opinions and you gave her very strongones. Just being yourselves, I know and there is nothing wrong withthat. But could you all please take a moment and look at it from her side? If it were me in her shoes, I would have went right on the defensiveseeing as you went after the man she loves who provides the food forher

family.*sigh*I quitBBNikki , "jo" <jo.heartwork wrote:>>>> Hi Jennifer>> There are a lot of self-sacrificing people around who are not in the army or police force. Is your husband really self-sacrificing. Iwould have thought that he is doing something he wants to do, which isnot self-sacrificing - the only sacrifice is you as you don't see somuch of him as if he had another job (maybe).>> I think the purpose of the police force is also misunderstood. Itwas invented to protect the rich and powerful. Although there arelots of good, nice police officers around, I do not generally admire the police. Incidentally I have a cousin who is a policeman, andseveral young chaps from work

have gone on to become police officers.>> Jo>To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

More and more police are armed these days over here, whether its a concealed tazer or pepper spray, or a boot full of shotguns........... The Valley Vegan...............Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Nikki A good point - I know very little about US police, and can only comment from a UK perspective. BB Peter On 17/10/06, earthstrm <earthstorm wrote: Hi PeterIn the UK they are "rarely armed with tools of death". Here in the USeach officer

carries at all times a gun, a billy club, handcuffs and a tazer. Some police vehicles also contain additional weapons.Here in the US, the police time is spent a lot differently than therein the UK obviously. Here they are trying to prevent rapes, gangshootings, making drug busts, finding lost and abducted children, releasing hostages, chasing criminals, etc etcDon't get me wrong, they harass here too, but our police world is alot different than yours. And it varies from state to state, city tocity, district to district, cop to cop. Oak Lawn's police is a lot different than Chicago's across the street...BBNikki - just adding in a different perspective , "Peter Kebbell" <metalscarab wrote:>> Hi Jennifer>> >By noble I mean "self-sacrificing". His ship is the equivalent of a>

>police officer's patrol in a city. Do you value what police officers> >contribute?>> Generally not. Most of their time is spent trying to prevent people from> making legal protest n my experience - and then beating up people who> continue to protest.> > Although I have to disagree anyway, since the main theoretical roleof the> military is to kill, and as such battleships are armed with the> tools necessary to kill. The main theoretical role of the police is to > protect the public, and they are rarely armed with tools of death(unless,> of course, they're manning animal rights protests!) - the two are almost> polar opposites.>> BB> Peter >To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Or a spinal tap fan........... The Valley Vegan................Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter I don't see anything judgemental in what I said. I was pointing out that in order to be Buddhist, one should be pacifist as it is a very clear part of Buddha's teachings. That's no more judgemental than pointing out that in order to be an Iron Maiden fan, one must like heavy metal. BB Peter On 16/10/06, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: Still not nice

to be judgemental of others, especially new members who are not used to our little idiosyncrasies. The Valley Vegan............om> wrote: Hi Peter I suspect Peter's judgement is based on the fact that he knows a hell of a lot of Buddhists (probably almost as many as me) whose whole lifestyle is geared towards pacifism. In fact, most of them are so pacifist that they even dislike going on a march as a protest. They invented a new section of Buddhism for that. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the group, but we marched side by side with them once. Jo - peter VV Monday, October 16, 2006 6:47 PM Re: Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights COME ON NOW PEOPLE , PLAY NICE? THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE, ASK QUESTIONS, NOT JUDGE PLEASE?????????????? OH

SHIT Caps were on then ! sorry, The Valley Vegan...............Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Jennifer >I'm also Buddhist and all of that sort of nonesense goes against my >nature. I am who I am and I believe what I believe regardless of my >surroundings or circumstances. I'm not anti-war or anti-military How can you possibly be a Buddhist and not be a Pacifist? That's a bit like saying you're a Christian that doesn't believe in Jesus. BB Peter Peter

H Try the all-new Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

With regards to Buddhism, wot e said............. The Valley Vegan................Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Jo >I suspect Peter's judgement is based on the fact that he knows a hell of a lot of Buddhists >(probably almost as many as me) whose whole lifestyle is geared towards pacifism. In fact, >most of them are so pacifist that they even dislike going on a march as a protest. They >invented a new section of Buddhism for that. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of >the group, but we marched side by side with

them once. They're "Engaged Buddhists"... I remember being very confused by their banner, which for quite a while I thought read "Endangered Buddhists" :-) As to Buddhism - the "Noble Eightfold Path" taught by Buddha included: "Right Actions - Wholesome action, avoiding action that would do harm", and "Right Livelihood - One's job does not harm in any way oneself or others; directly or indirectly (weapon maker, drug dealer, etc.)" I fail to see how that could possibly be interpreted in any other way than pacifism. BB Peter Peter H

 

All new Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine

[Guest guest]

HI Peter

 

That's the name :-) I couldn't remember it at all - I knew it was something unusual.

 

BBJo

 

-

Peter Kebbell

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:51 PM

Re: Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

 

Hi Jo

 

>I suspect Peter's judgement is based on the fact that he knows a hell of a lot of Buddhists

>(probably almost as many as me) whose whole lifestyle is geared towards pacifism. In fact,

>most of them are so pacifist that they even dislike going on a march as a protest. They

>invented a new section of Buddhism for that. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of

>the group, but we marched side by side with them once.

 

They're "Engaged Buddhists"... I remember being very confused by their banner, which for quite a while I thought read "Endangered Buddhists" :-)

 

As to Buddhism - the "Noble Eightfold Path" taught by Buddha included: "Right Actions - Wholesome action, avoiding action that would do harm", and "Right Livelihood - One's job does not harm in any way oneself or others; directly or indirectly (weapon maker, drug dealer, etc.)" I fail to see how that could possibly be interpreted in any other way than pacifism.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

>Well , she sure got a reaction, and you sure aint leaving it alone now!

 

Yep - I know. But I'm being philosophical about it ;-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

glad to know........ The Valley Vegan..................Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter >Well , she sure got a reaction, and you sure aint leaving it alone now! Yep - I know. But I'm being philosophical about it ;-) BB Peter Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

My last comment, I Promise, I Promise, I Promise!

 

And it is only because you bring up the absolute best point here

Peter to show both sides of this. The absolute best point! This

completely explains what I meant and what you meant and why. At

least I think it does.

 

You said:

> Hmmm... I think if I joined a list where the main ethic was one of

not

> killing, I wouldn't make my first post one of " hey, my husband's

in the

> military - what do you all think of that? "

 

 

I do not believe that is the group that she joined. Or if she did,

she did not know it. By saying this, you are stating that every

Vegan believes this and therefore by joining a Vegan group that is

what the group must be about and all vegans must follow it. Not

everyone is vegan or veggie for the same reasons that you are or

that I am or that anyone is. Some are for health. And even those

that are for animals does not mean that they care about all species,

or wars or rights or anything else. By saying this you assume that

they do.

 

Next, the list description on the home page reads:

 

" This group is intended for vegans to chat about anything and

everything - whether related to veganism or not!

 

Polite and friendly discussions on any topic welcomed - if

disagreements occur, please keep them on a mature level.

 

Vegetarians also welcome.

 

Due to repetative problems with spammers, all new members must be

approved by the moderator before joining, and will be moderated

until they have introduced themselves to the list. Please note that

if your introduction appears to be an advertisement, it will not

reach the list, and you may be removed! "

 

Where does it read no killers allowed? LOL I know, it sounds silly,

but really. You assumed she was joining a group with your ideals,

where in fact she was just joining a vegan group. She could have

different ideals.

 

Seriously, I am so not bringing this up to argue with you. I am

showing you my point of view on this because I am not sure if you

all understood why I was so upset about this. I do not agree with

all of Jennifer's thoughts, but I also did not like seeing a new

member feeling like she could not talk to us. I dunno, felt

like " we " ganged up on her to me. I know she asked, but I do not

think that she realized the type of answer that she would get.

 

I am not saying that Jennifer was 100% right or 100% wrong. I am

saying she is a human being with her own thoughts and ideals and

should be allowed to have those. And those ideals do not have to

match yours or mine.

 

Crap, why did I come back here tonight? Oh, I know why and I am

going to go complain to him now...

 

I'm done, seriously. I just thought that you deserved an answer is

all and I did not want to leave you hanging on it.

 

Sorry

 

BB

Nikki

 

 

 

 

, " Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab

wrote:

>

> Hi Nikki

>

> Hmmm... I think if I joined a list where the main ethic was one of

not

> killing, I wouldn't make my first post one of " hey, my husband's

in the

> military - what do you all think of that? " It seems to me like it

was a

> question specifically designed to cause a reaction, which is one

of the main

> reasons I left it alone for so long.

>

> BB

> Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Nikki

 

I think personally that this has been blown way out of proportion. There

has been no big argument. Someone asked a question - some people answered

it - one with and three against. Nobody was rude or used bad language. The

discussion then changed and three people were against Peter (although I'm

sure he can take it). Therefore no more people have been against Jennifer

than have been against Peter. Basically, a question was asked and has been

answered. Most of the rest of the posts have been saying who was right and

who was wrong in answering the question. It hasn't even managed to become a

proper discussion.

 

It doesn't really matter what ideals we have, and what ideals newcomers

have - for there to be any interaction at all, views must be stated. If we

were all too scared to say what our opinion is we might as well just shut up

shop. Jennifer was not scared to give her opinion and the rest of us who

have commented have not been scared to give ours. I cannot see a problem

with that.

 

You say that Jennifer 'is a human being with her own thoughts and ideals and

should be allowed to have those, and those ideals do not have to match yours

or mine'. I think the same courtesy should be given to all members on the

list, including me, Peter and Peter VV?

 

BB

Jo

 

 

 

 

>I am not saying that Jennifer was 100% right or 100% wrong. I am

> saying she is a human being with her own thoughts and ideals and

> should be allowed to have those. And those ideals do not have to

> match yours or mine.

 

-

" earthstrm " <earthstorm

 

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:55 PM

Re: Navy Daze and Vegan Nights

 

 

> Hi Peter

>

> My last comment, I Promise, I Promise, I Promise!

>

> And it is only because you bring up the absolute best point here

> Peter to show both sides of this. The absolute best point! This

> completely explains what I meant and what you meant and why. At

> least I think it does.

>

> You said:

> > Hmmm... I think if I joined a list where the main ethic was one of

> not

> > killing, I wouldn't make my first post one of " hey, my husband's

> in the

> > military - what do you all think of that? "

>

>

> I do not believe that is the group that she joined. Or if she did,

> she did not know it. By saying this, you are stating that every

> Vegan believes this and therefore by joining a Vegan group that is

> what the group must be about and all vegans must follow it. Not

> everyone is vegan or veggie for the same reasons that you are or

> that I am or that anyone is. Some are for health. And even those

> that are for animals does not mean that they care about all species,

> or wars or rights or anything else. By saying this you assume that

> they do.

>

> Next, the list description on the home page reads:

>

> " This group is intended for vegans to chat about anything and

> everything - whether related to veganism or not!

>

> Polite and friendly discussions on any topic welcomed - if

> disagreements occur, please keep them on a mature level.

>

> Vegetarians also welcome.

>

> Due to repetative problems with spammers, all new members must be

> approved by the moderator before joining, and will be moderated

> until they have introduced themselves to the list. Please note that

> if your introduction appears to be an advertisement, it will not

> reach the list, and you may be removed! "

>

> Where does it read no killers allowed? LOL I know, it sounds silly,

> but really. You assumed she was joining a group with your ideals,

> where in fact she was just joining a vegan group. She could have

> different ideals.

>

> Seriously, I am so not bringing this up to argue with you. I am

> showing you my point of view on this because I am not sure if you

> all understood why I was so upset about this. I do not agree with

> all of Jennifer's thoughts, but I also did not like seeing a new

> member feeling like she could not talk to us. I dunno, felt

> like " we " ganged up on her to me. I know she asked, but I do not

> think that she realized the type of answer that she would get.

>

> I am not saying that Jennifer was 100% right or 100% wrong. I am

> saying she is a human being with her own thoughts and ideals and

> should be allowed to have those. And those ideals do not have to

> match yours or mine.

>

> Crap, why did I come back here tonight? Oh, I know why and I am

> going to go complain to him now...

>

> I'm done, seriously. I just thought that you deserved an answer is

> all and I did not want to leave you hanging on it.

>

> Sorry

>

> BB

> Nikki

>

>

>

>

> , " Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab

> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Nikki

> >

> > Hmmm... I think if I joined a list where the main ethic was one of

> not

> > killing, I wouldn't make my first post one of " hey, my husband's

> in the

> > military - what do you all think of that? " It seems to me like it

> was a

> > question specifically designed to cause a reaction, which is one

> of the main

> > reasons I left it alone for so long.

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

>

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>