Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Fraggle > marry me peter..... You know, I would, but I'm still bitter that you asked the other Peter first ;-) BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Oooh - is Fraggle gonna be my son-in-law? Jo - fraggle Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:27 PM Re: Re: have you killed today? marry me peter..... Peter Kebbell Jun 6, 2006 1:34 AM Re: Re: have you killed today? Hi Anouk / Soliel > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > than for him to be Brave and dead. I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of the bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in a field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takes bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members of the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery only considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun? BB Peter I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 My comments are no comment on Nikki's - but people have never minded commenting on my interests - music taste, Paganism etc. It's life. Jo - fraggle Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:32 PM Re: Re: have you killed today? i feel strange answering this if nikki is not gonna see it...but...imo, one could say the same thing about anyone er anything then..one can not comment on someone who works in a slaughterhouse perchanceone can not judge stalin without wearing his shoiesetc and so forth...>earthstrm <earthstorm (AT) comcast (DOT) net>>Jun 6, 2006 4:29 AM> > Re: have you killed today?>>Can someone please let me know when this entire conversation is over? >I think it is great everyone here wants to discuss it and I love all >of our open views. But I just can't participate in this one. Hits too >close to home.>>My basic thoughts are this, until you live in the shoes of the person >serving (any country, any army) you cannot judge. You just cannot >judge.>>I do not advocate killing another, attacking for no reason, etc etc etc>>I do not agree with alot of things both sides have written here either >and then there is many that I do. But who gives us the right to judge >another? Just like I have no right to judge anyone's thoughts here. So >before I start taking this great discussion personal, I have to go for >a bit until it is over.>>And I will leave it at that.>>Blessings,>>Nikki>>>>>>>To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Peter >I saw him first! Well, if only I was that way inclined, we could make quite a triple ;-) BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Does that mean I'll have two sons in law?? Jo - peter VV Tuesday, June 06, 2006 7:13 PM Re: Re: have you killed today? I saw him first! The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: marry me peter..... Peter Kebbell Jun 6, 2006 1:34 AM Re: Re: have you killed today? Hi Anouk / Soliel > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > than for him to be Brave and dead. I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of the bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in a field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takes bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members of the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery only considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun? BB Peter I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Peter H Try the all-new Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 You had to take it too far didnt you! The Valley Vegan..............Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter >I saw him first! Well, if only I was that way inclined, we could make quite a triple ;-) BB Peter Peter H Try the all-new Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Oh no - can't forget him. I prefer him to John Lennon :-) Jo - peter VV Tuesday, June 06, 2006 7:32 PM Re: Re: have you killed today? And dont forget Martin Luther King.............. The Valley Vegan................Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Anouk / Soliel > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > than for him to be Brave and dead. I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of the bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in a field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takes bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members of the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery only considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun? BB Peter Peter H Try the all-new Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Not trying to be an arse, and I shouldn't be in on this, but I have a question. What does Iran invading or not invading have to do with someone choosing to be a soldier or in the army? And I may just be missing something or on the wrong path, because admittingly I hate to skip some posts and parts of others. So I am just asking. Nikki keeping with my theme, the biggest bully of them all is the US as for madmen and iran..... name a country iran invaded.... mayhaps we here need t olook in the mirror... we always hear thimgs like, " would you die for this or that.. " how about.. what would you live for???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Peter I didn't think I'd taken it anywhere.... BB Peter - peter VV Tuesday, June 06, 2006 7:47 PM Re: Re: have you killed today? You had to take it too far didnt you! The Valley Vegan..............Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter >I saw him first! Well, if only I was that way inclined, we could make quite a triple ;-) BB Peter Peter H Try the all-new Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Nikki You have missed something :-) Someone made a comment that the leader of Iran was "a major threat", and people were, quite rightly, asking who, exactly, Iran has threatened! BB Peter - earthstrm Tuesday, June 06, 2006 7:59 PM Re: have you killed today? Not trying to be an arse, and I shouldn't be in on this, but I have a question. What does Iran invading or not invading have to do with someone choosing to be a soldier or in the army?And I may just be missing something or on the wrong path, because admittingly I hate to skip some posts and parts of others. So I am just asking.Nikki :)keeping with my theme, the biggest bully of them all is the USas for madmen and iran.....name a country iran invaded....mayhaps we here need t olook in the mirror...we always hear thimgs like, "would you die for this or that.."how about..what would you live for???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Jo And I agree with you completely on that. That is one of the things I love most about this group and the people in it, is that we talk freely and openly and voice our views. I just took a few views way to personal as all because it hit home on people I know and love. They were just so matter of fact and instead of replying the wrong way with an argument I chose to leave. But then I thought better of it and came back. BB Nikki , " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote: > > My comments are no comment on Nikki's - but people have never minded commenting on my interests - music taste, Paganism etc. It's life. > > Jo > > - > fraggle > > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:32 PM > Re: Re: have you killed today? > > > i feel strange answering this if nikki is not gonna see it... > but...imo, one could say the same thing about anyone er anything then.. > one can not comment on someone who works in a slaughterhouse perchance > one can not judge stalin without wearing his shoies > etc and so forth... > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Peter Good, I'm glad that part was me. Thx! BB Nikki , " Peter " <metalscarab wrote: > > Hi Nikki > > You have missed something :-) > > Someone made a comment that the leader of Iran was " a major threat " , and people were, quite rightly, asking who, exactly, Iran has threatened! > > BB > Peter > > - > earthstrm > > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 7:59 PM > Re: have you killed today? > > > Not trying to be an arse, and I shouldn't be in on this, but I have > a question. What does Iran invading or not invading have to do with > someone choosing to be a soldier or in the army? > > And I may just be missing something or on the wrong path, because > admittingly I hate to skip some posts and parts of others. So I am > just asking. > > Nikki > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 nikki, i know the whole military hits close to home with you, and you hold parts of it dear to yer heart but... the military, which in 2005 had a budget of $500 billion in the US, is fer one thing when you boil it down... subjugating... sorry if this topic upsets you, but...i don't now how to sugar coat it very much.... and making it vegan sugar to boot >earthstrm <earthstorm >Jun 6, 2006 12:29 PM > > Re: have you killed today? > >Stupid Nikki is going to see it because she is in a bad mood so came >back anyways. > >You said nothing wrong, I agree. Doesn't mean what they did/do is >right or wrong, but it is their shoes. > >Sorry, I don't like the " generalized " bashing of any countries >military or individual soldiers past or present. It cannot be >contained or explained that neatly. > >Nikki > > > , fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: >> >> i feel strange answering this if nikki is not gonna see it... >> but...imo, one could say the same thing about anyone er anything >then.. >> one can not comment on someone who works in a slaughterhouse >perchance >> one can not judge stalin without wearing his shoies >> etc and so forth... >> >> >> >earthstrm <earthstorm >> >Jun 6, 2006 4:29 AM >> > >> > Re: have you killed today? >> > >> >Can someone please let me know when this entire conversation is >over? >> >I think it is great everyone here wants to discuss it and I love >all >> >of our open views. But I just can't participate in this one. Hits >too >> >close to home. >> > >> >My basic thoughts are this, until you live in the shoes of the >person >> >serving (any country, any army) you cannot judge. You just cannot >> >judge. >> > >> >I do not advocate killing another, attacking for no reason, etc >etc etc >> > >> >I do not agree with alot of things both sides have written here >either >> >and then there is many that I do. But who gives us the right to >judge >> >another? Just like I have no right to judge anyone's thoughts >here. So >> >before I start taking this great discussion personal, I have to >go for >> >a bit until it is over. >> > >> >And I will leave it at that. >> > >> >Blessings, >> > >> >Nikki > > > > > > > >To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 oh, don't be that way pookey..... i can luv you both.... Peter Jun 6, 2006 11:35 AM Re: Re: have you killed today? Hi Fraggle > marry me peter..... You know, I would, but I'm still bitter that you asked the other Peter first ;-) BB Peter I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Nikki I think it happens to us all at times. BBJo - earthstrm Tuesday, June 06, 2006 9:41 PM Re: have you killed today? Hi JoAnd I agree with you completely on that. That is one of the things I love most about this group and the people in it, is that we talk freely and openly and voice our views. I just took a few views way to personal as all because it hit home on people I know and love. They were just so matter of fact and instead of replying the wrong way with an argument I chose to leave. But then I thought better of it and came back.:)BBNikki .. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Fraggle No need to sugar coat it for me, that would be worse. And it is not really the military or the leaders that fund it that I was not wanting to hear about right now. Tho there was one war that I was particularly grateful that the US got involved in. It is the soldiers that I was getting upset about. And not just our military either, soldiers/armies in general too. It matters not, I'll get past it and will vent if I can't. Nikki , fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: > > nikki, i know the whole military hits close to home with you, and you hold parts of it dear to yer heart > but... > the military, which in 2005 had a budget of $500 billion in the US, is fer one thing when you boil it down... > subjugating... > sorry if this topic upsets you, but...i don't now how to sugar coat it very much.... > and making it vegan sugar to boot > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Soliel I would like to ask you the question that I ask all people who support the war.... in opposing war, I get up off my backside, and go on demonstrations, write letters, sign petitions, and basically act according to my beliefs (even when surrounded by riot police and faced by armed marines).... when will you be signing up to go and fight in the wars you support? And, as I've already pointed out, WWII would never have happened if people had been brave in the first place, and stood up for what was right. WWII was the result of horrific oppression of the German people - it was a perfect example of creating a problem in order to justify a war, as has happened with every war. I think it's incredibly sad that otherwise intelligent people still fail to recognise just how much the people in power and in the media create problems in order to justify violence, and actually support these people in doing so. BB Pete - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:31 PM Re: have you killed today? My response is.... I agree that the elites children should fight, too. In fact, all young people should do some kind of service...it doesn't have to be military but some kind of service. I disagree with the bravery statement. Everything Great in this world has come because of courage and initiative. Every good cause was fought by those who are brave. And in the case of WW2 bravery was what saved the day. Sure, many can live and be a coward but then that is what you become. As far as the liberal men I was talking about...I was talking about the causes they so proclaimed to love. One of them always talks about the ocean and how much they love it and the animals in it...but he can't even organize himself to complete an online petition. And don't even think about giving any money away...he is so tight. Even though he has no job (recieves an income, though) he won't even spare any time to what he says he loves. I ask him, "if you don't do anything who will"? This is opposed to the great man Paul Watson....who is BRAVE, who takes initiative, who stands for something, who has given of himself over and over. I would say that Paul Watson is a much better man than the guy I know because he does have the qualities of selflessness, bravery and standing up for what he believes. And soldiers do, too. And then my last bf....he is has stated outloud that he wants to be "selfish" and he is just not going to give anything back. Funny thing is, he used to be nice and willing to give back in some way but not anymore. As for the preschool issue...I feel it's apples and oranges. I am not convinced the war and that are directly related. Even without a war, I am not sure others are wanting to pay for it. There maybe many reasons why this didn't pass....local funds are low....public doesn't believe the government will provide good services....I am just guessing. By the way, if a soldier kills someone who is killing others in mass...I would say that is GOOD. That prevents many others from suffering and being killed. Also, soldiers are doing MUCH more than killing, much more. They are often the ones keeping the peace, which is priceless. I salute them...they are so judged for doing a job that has to be done. They face the nitty gritty, that so often has no easy answers, in life while those who judge them so easily want to just keep their hands clean. Soliel In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: 6b. Re: have you killed today? Posted by: "Anouk Sickler" zurumato zurumato Mon Jun 5, 2006 9:30 pm (PDT)hii too admire bravery in men, but these are young boys, some 18 years old.you have to ask, are they fully aware of all of the details of what exactly it is that they are fighting for?why aren't the sons of Senators or the Bush Girls fighting in this war?If that were your son, is his life worth this war we are fighting? and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, than for him to be Brave and dead. The liberal men that you are talking about that, do not Do anything,is probably because the do not believe in this war. there was a discussion on the radio today, I live in Sarasota,FLorida. you know what the discussion was?????it was about whether our county has enough money in their budgetto fund pre-school for four year old children in september.NOw that is F_)*k up. Tons of money going into this war, yet four year old little kids might not be able to attend free pre-school!!!! , lv2breathe wrote:>> > I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them ordisrespect them. > I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If wedidn't have > those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, whetherwe like > it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is enlightened enough > to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen inthe world > who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but everyone can > probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will need an army. > > I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the liberal men > I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do anything > beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier does something. > We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone hasto do > it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if youdisagree > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, withcourage, with a > sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and areacting from a > sense of good even though that can be debated. The essentialmotivation > cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they wantto help their > fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I know > personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend Iknow of) barely > are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, muchless risk their > lives.> > I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what ourgovernment is > doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the mostselfless people I > can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but takeit up > with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it'sright to be > hard on soldiers, they are only serving. > > Soliel> > In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > writes:> > Message: 23 > Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) > "fraggle" EBbrewpunx > Re: have you killed today? > > > well..yes and no> some folks join fer the macho "my gun is bigger then yer gun" , and > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 well..gonna ahve to take this piecemeal... so, if you'll bear with meon the service part what sort of service? who decides? what if you don't believe in it? how about service to humanity? how about service to the world and everything that resides there in? why does it have t o be young people? and, if you may ask, have you ever completed such a service? what do you consider brave? is someone who blows him/herself up fer wotever cause any different/braver then someone who kills someone in a "declared" act of war? (btw..i'm just asking) were troops storming some island in the pacific braver say then julia butterfly hill? why? as for the so-called liberals you know..sorry..don't know em..can't comment on em i'd say many people in general are lazy, and want the easy way out i certainly wouldn't call that liberal er progressive... preskool and money sure lots of reasons but...how can we on the one hand spend billions and billions and billions on bombing and killing and destroying and then have no money for skools? you don't see a connection? how we can drop bombs over and over from untold heights and not have moneyfor medicare? how we can rumble tanks into some other land and not have money to pay for care of the elderly? how we can spend billions on DU ammo, which will spread radiation for generations and yet have no money for wetlands or poverty reduction or food or health care for all or housing or education or... finally what peace have they supposedly kept? where? lv2breathe Jun 6, 2006 9:31 AM Cc: Lv2breathe Re: have you killed today? I agree that the elites children should fight, too. In fact, all young people should do some kind of service...it doesn't have to be military but some kind of service. I disagree with the bravery statement. Everything Great in this world has come because of courage and initiative. Every good cause was fought by those who are brave. And in the case of WW2 bravery was what saved the day. Sure, many can live and be a coward but then that is what you become. As far as the liberal men I was talking about...I was talking about the causes they so proclaimed to love. One of them always talks about the ocean and how much they love it and the animals in it...but he can't even organize himself to complete an online petition. And don't even think about giving any money away...he is so tight. Even though he has no job (recieves an income, though) he won't even spare any time to what he says he loves. I ask him, "if you don't do anything who will"? This is opposed to the great man Paul Watson....who is BRAVE, who takes initiative, who stands for something, who has given of himself over and over. I would say that Paul Watson is a much better man than the guy I know because he does have the qualities of selflessness, bravery and standing up for what he believes. And soldiers do, too. And then my last bf....he is has stated outloud that he wants to be "selfish" and he is just not going to give anything back. Funny thing is, he used to be nice and willing to give back in some way but not anymore. As for the preschool issue...I feel it's apples and oranges. I am not convinced the war and that are directly related. Even without a war, I am not sure others are wanting to pay for it. There maybe many reasons why this didn't pass....local funds are low....public doesn't believe the government will provide good services....I am just guessing. By the way, if a soldier kills someone who is killing others in mass...I would say that is GOOD. That prevents many others from suffering and being killed. Also, soldiers are doing MUCH more than killing, much more. They are often the ones keeping the peace, which is priceless. I salute them...they are so judged for doing a job that has to be done. They face the nitty gritty, that so often has no easy answers, in life while those who judge them so easily want to just keep their hands clean. Soliel I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 go ahead and vent... er at least talk.... >earthstrm <earthstorm >Jun 6, 2006 3:29 PM > > Re: have you killed today? > >Hi Fraggle > >No need to sugar coat it for me, that would be worse. > >And it is not really the military or the leaders that fund it that I >was not wanting to hear about right now. Tho there was one war that >I was particularly grateful that the US got involved in. > >It is the soldiers that I was getting upset about. And not just our >military either, soldiers/armies in general too. > >It matters not, I'll get past it and will vent if I can't. > >Nikki > > > , fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: >> >> nikki, i know the whole military hits close to home with you, and >you hold parts of it dear to yer heart >> but... >> the military, which in 2005 had a budget of $500 billion in the >US, is fer one thing when you boil it down... >> subjugating... >> sorry if this topic upsets you, but...i don't now how to sugar >coat it very much.... >> and making it vegan sugar to boot >> > > > > > > > >To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 took the words right out of me mouth yee did Peter Jun 6, 2006 3:30 PM Re: Re: have you killed today? Hi Soliel I would like to ask you the question that I ask all people who support the war.... in opposing war, I get up off my backside, and go on demonstrations, write letters, sign petitions, and basically act according to my beliefs (even when surrounded by riot police and faced by armed marines).... when will you be signing up to go and fight in the wars you support? And, as I've already pointed out, WWII would never have happened if people had been brave in the first place, and stood up for what was right. WWII was the result of horrific oppression of the German people - it was a perfect example of creating a problem in order to justify a war, as has happened with every war. I think it's incredibly sad that otherwise intelligent people still fail to recognise just how much the people in power and in the media create problems in order to justify violence, and actually support these people in doing so. BB Pete - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:31 PM Re: have you killed today? My response is.... I agree that the elites children should fight, too. In fact, all young people should do some kind of service...it doesn't have to be military but some kind of service. I disagree with the bravery statement. Everything Great in this world has come because of courage and initiative. Every good cause was fought by those who are brave. And in the case of WW2 bravery was what saved the day. Sure, many can live and be a coward but then that is what you become. As far as the liberal men I was talking about...I was talking about the causes they so proclaimed to love. One of them always talks about the ocean and how much they love it and the animals in it...but he can't even organize himself to complete an online petition. And don't even think about giving any money away...he is so tight. Even though he has no job (recieves an income, though) he won't even spare any time to what he says he loves. I ask him, "if you don't do anything who will"? This is opposed to the great man Paul Watson....who is BRAVE, who takes initiative, who stands for something, who has given of himself over and over. I would say that Paul Watson is a much better man than the guy I know because he does have the qualities of selflessness, bravery and standing up for what he believes. And soldiers do, too. And then my last bf....he is has stated outloud that he wants to be "selfish" and he is just not going to give anything back. Funny thing is, he used to be nice and willing to give back in some way but not anymore. As for the preschool issue...I feel it's apples and oranges. I am not convinced the war and that are directly related. Even without a war, I am not sure others are wanting to pay for it. There maybe many reasons why this didn't pass....local funds are low....public doesn't believe the government will provide good services....I am just guessing. By the way, if a soldier kills someone who is killing others in mass...I would say that is GOOD. That prevents many others from suffering and being killed. Also, soldiers are doing MUCH more than killing, much more. They are often the ones keeping the peace, which is priceless. I salute them...they are so judged for doing a job that has to be done. They face the nitty gritty, that so often has no easy answers, in life while those who judge them so easily want to just keep their hands clean. Soliel In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: 6b. Re: have you killed today? Posted by: "Anouk Sickler" zurumato zurumato Mon Jun 5, 2006 9:30 pm (PDT)hii too admire bravery in men, but these are young boys, some 18 years old.you have to ask, are they fully aware of all of the details of what exactly it is that they are fighting for?why aren't the sons of Senators or the Bush Girls fighting in this war?If that were your son, is his life worth this war we are fighting? and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, than for him to be Brave and dead. The liberal men that you are talking about that, do not Do anything,is probably because the do not believe in this war. there was a discussion on the radio today, I live in Sarasota,FLorida. you know what the discussion was?????it was about whether our county has enough money in their budgetto fund pre-school for four year old children in september.NOw that is F_)*k up. Tons of money going into this war, yet four year old little kids might not be able to attend free pre-school!!!! , lv2breathe wrote:>> > I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them ordisrespect them. > I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If wedidn't have > those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, whetherwe like > it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is enlightened enough > to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen inthe world > who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but everyone can > probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will need an army. > > I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the liberal men > I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do anything > beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier does something. > We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone hasto do > it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if youdisagree > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, withcourage, with a > sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and areacting from a > sense of good even though that can be debated. The essentialmotivation > cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they wantto help their > fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I know > personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend Iknow of) barely > are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, muchless risk their > lives.> > I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what ourgovernment is > doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the mostselfless people I > can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but takeit up > with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it'sright to be > hard on soldiers, they are only serving. > > Soliel> > In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > writes:> > Message: 23 > Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) > "fraggle" EBbrewpunx > Re: have you killed today? > > > well..yes and no> some folks join fer the macho "my gun is bigger then yer gun" , and > I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Jo Thank you! That means alot to me BB Nikki , " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote: > > Hi Nikki > > I think it happens to us all at times. > > BB > Jo > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 7, 2006 Hi Peter Not picking on you personally here, but you bring up a good statement. So to go a bit off page and still stay on the same discussion: > And, as I've already pointed out, WWII would never have happened >if people had been brave in the first place, and stood up for what >was right. WWII was the result of horrific oppression of the German >people - it was a perfect example of creating a problem in order to >justify a war, as has happened with every war. A lot of Lithuanians would not have survived this period with their fight against Russia had Lithuania not have had an army which they used to help then be brave in the first place and stand up for what was right. And alot did not survive even tho they did that. And then there were other countries too, I know. I just know more of the Lithuanian involvement and am already getting in too deep. WWII is not just about Germany and Hitler. There was a lot of cause and effect from this and before this. And what about the US involvement? They stood up for what was right and lent aid and support in this war and no oil was involved at that time. So question to everyone, should the US have stayed out of this war? BB Nikki , " Peter " <metalscarab wrote: > > Hi Soliel > > I would like to ask you the question that I ask all people who support the war.... in opposing war, I get up off my backside, and go on demonstrations, write letters, sign petitions, and basically act according to my beliefs (even when surrounded by riot police and faced by armed marines).... when will you be signing up to go and fight in the wars you support? > > And, as I've already pointed out, WWII would never have happened if people had been brave in the first place, and stood up for what was right. WWII was the result of horrific oppression of the German people - it was a perfect example of creating a problem in order to justify a war, as has happened with every war. I think it's incredibly sad that otherwise intelligent people still fail to recognise just how much the people in power and in the media create problems in order to justify violence, and actually support these people in doing so. > > BB > Pete > > > - > lv2breathe > > Cc: Lv2breathe > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:31 PM > Re: have you killed today? > > > > > My response is.... > > I agree that the elites children should fight, too. In fact, all young people should do some kind of service...it doesn't have to be military but some kind of service. > > I disagree with the bravery statement. Everything Great in this world has come because of courage and initiative. Every good cause was fought by those who are brave. And in the case of WW2 bravery was what saved the day. Sure, many can live and be a coward but then that is what you become. > > As far as the liberal men I was talking about...I was talking about the causes they so proclaimed to love. One of them always talks about the ocean and how much they love it and the animals in it...but he can't even organize himself to complete an online petition. And don't even think about giving any money away...he is so tight. Even though he has no job (recieves an income, though) he won't even spare any time to what he says he loves. I ask him, " if you don't do anything who will " ? > > This is opposed to the great man Paul Watson....who is BRAVE, who takes initiative, who stands for something, who has given of himself over and over. I would say that Paul Watson is a much better man than the guy I know because he does have the qualities of selflessness, bravery and standing up for what he believes. And soldiers do, too. > > And then my last bf....he is has stated outloud that he wants to be " selfish " and he is just not going to give anything back. Funny thing is, he used to be nice and willing to give back in some way but not anymore. > > As for the preschool issue...I feel it's apples and oranges. I am not convinced the war and that are directly related. Even without a war, I am not sure others are wanting to pay for it. There maybe many reasons why this didn't pass....local funds are low....public doesn't believe the government will provide good services....I am just guessing. > > By the way, if a soldier kills someone who is killing others in mass...I would say that is GOOD. That prevents many others from suffering and being killed. Also, soldiers are doing MUCH more than killing, much more. They are often the ones keeping the peace, which is priceless. > > I salute them...they are so judged for doing a job that has to be done. They face the nitty gritty, that so often has no easy answers, in life while those who judge them so easily want to just keep their hands clean. > > Soliel > > > > In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: > 6b. Re: have you killed today? > Posted by: " Anouk Sickler " zurumato zurumato > Mon Jun 5, 2006 9:30 pm (PDT) > > hi > > i too admire bravery in men, > > but these are young boys, some 18 years old. > you have to ask, > > are they fully aware of all of the details of what exactly it is > that they are fighting for? > > why aren't the sons of Senators or the Bush Girls > fighting in this war? > > If that were your son, is his life worth this war we are > fighting? > > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > than for him to be Brave and dead. > > The liberal men that you are talking about that, do not Do anything, > is probably because the do not believe in this war. > > there was a discussion on the radio today, I live in Sarasota, > FLorida. > > you know what the discussion was????? > > it was about whether our county has enough money in their budget > to fund pre-school for four year old children in september. > > > NOw that is F_)*k up. > > Tons of money going into this war, yet > > four year old little kids might not be able to attend free > pre-school!!!! > > > > > , lv2breathe@ wrote: > > > > > > I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or > disrespect them. > > I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If we > didn't have > > those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, whether > we like > > it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is > enlightened enough > > to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in > the world > > who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but > everyone can > > probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will > need an army. > > > > I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the > liberal men > > I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do > anything > > beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier > does something. > > We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone has > to do > > it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if you > disagree > > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with > courage, with a > > sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and are > acting from a > > sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential > motivation > > cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they want > to help their > > fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I know > > personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I > know of) barely > > are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much > less risk their > > lives. > > > > I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our > government is > > doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most > selfless people I > > can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but take > it up > > with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it's > right to be > > hard on soldiers, they are only serving. > > > > Soliel > > > > In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > writes: > > > > Message: 23 > > Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) > > " fraggle " EBbrewpunx@ > > Re: have you killed today? > > > > > > well..yes and no > > some folks join fer the macho " my gun is bigger then yer gun " , and > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 7, 2006 hey nikki i think wot peter was refering to was the many causes of WWII, and how the west through whichever means, helped bring all the hell of WWII, down upon the world one has to look at the causes of why things occured and, i've long since learned (hopefully anyways) that there are more then two sides to every story... fer our part...US big business walked hand in goosestep with the nazi party... business is business.,, heck, even bush's grandpappy Prescott held companies for Thyssen coca-cola ibm examples are legion.... and, even better much of hitler's monstrous plans of ethnic cleansing came from..right here in the good ol USA.... unfortunately...we often are much to ready to look at the symptoms of something..and leap from there..as opposed to rooting out the causes of something >earthstrm <earthstorm >Jun 6, 2006 4:47 PM > > Re: have you killed today? > >Hi Peter > >Not picking on you personally here, but you bring up a good >statement. So to go a bit off page and still stay on the same >discussion: > >> And, as I've already pointed out, WWII would never have happened >>if people had been brave in the first place, and stood up for what >>was right. WWII was the result of horrific oppression of the German >>people - it was a perfect example of creating a problem in order to >>justify a war, as has happened with every war. > >A lot of Lithuanians would not have survived this period with their >fight against Russia had Lithuania not have had an army which they >used to help then be brave in the first place and stand up for what >was right. And alot did not survive even tho they did that. > >And then there were other countries too, I know. I just know more of >the Lithuanian involvement and am already getting in too deep. > >WWII is not just about Germany and Hitler. There was a lot of cause >and effect from this and before this. > >And what about the US involvement? They stood up for what was right >and lent aid and support in this war and no oil was involved at that >time. So question to everyone, should the US have stayed out of this >war? > >BB >Nikki > > > > , " Peter " <metalscarab wrote: >> >> Hi Soliel >> >> I would like to ask you the question that I ask all people who >support the war.... in opposing war, I get up off my backside, and >go on demonstrations, write letters, sign petitions, and basically >act according to my beliefs (even when surrounded by riot police and >faced by armed marines).... when will you be signing up to go and >fight in the wars you support? >> >> And, as I've already pointed out, WWII would never have happened >if people had been brave in the first place, and stood up for what >was right. WWII was the result of horrific oppression of the German >people - it was a perfect example of creating a problem in order to >justify a war, as has happened with every war. I think it's >incredibly sad that otherwise intelligent people still fail to >recognise just how much the people in power and in the media create >problems in order to justify violence, and actually support these >people in doing so. >> >> BB >> Pete >> >> >> - >> lv2breathe >> >> Cc: Lv2breathe >> Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:31 PM >> Re: have you killed today? >> >> >> >> >> My response is.... >> >> I agree that the elites children should fight, too. In fact, >all young people should do some kind of service...it doesn't have to >be military but some kind of service. >> >> I disagree with the bravery statement. Everything Great in this >world has come because of courage and initiative. Every good cause >was fought by those who are brave. And in the case of WW2 bravery >was what saved the day. Sure, many can live and be a coward but >then that is what you become. >> >> As far as the liberal men I was talking about...I was talking >about the causes they so proclaimed to love. One of them always >talks about the ocean and how much they love it and the animals in >it...but he can't even organize himself to complete an online >petition. And don't even think about giving any money away...he is >so tight. Even though he has no job (recieves an income, though) he >won't even spare any time to what he says he loves. I ask him, " if >you don't do anything who will " ? >> >> This is opposed to the great man Paul Watson....who is BRAVE, >who takes initiative, who stands for something, who has given of >himself over and over. I would say that Paul Watson is a much >better man than the guy I know because he does have the qualities of >selflessness, bravery and standing up for what he believes. And >soldiers do, too. >> >> And then my last bf....he is has stated outloud that he wants to >be " selfish " and he is just not going to give anything back. Funny >thing is, he used to be nice and willing to give back in some way >but not anymore. >> >> As for the preschool issue...I feel it's apples and oranges. I >am not convinced the war and that are directly related. Even >without a war, I am not sure others are wanting to pay for it. >There maybe many reasons why this didn't pass....local funds are >low....public doesn't believe the government will provide good >services....I am just guessing. >> >> By the way, if a soldier kills someone who is killing others in >mass...I would say that is GOOD. That prevents many others from >suffering and being killed. Also, soldiers are doing MUCH more than >killing, much more. They are often the ones keeping the peace, >which is priceless. >> >> I salute them...they are so judged for doing a job that has to >be done. They face the nitty gritty, that so often has no easy >answers, in life while those who judge them so easily want to just >keep their hands clean. >> >> Soliel >> >> >> >> In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > writes: >> 6b. Re: have you killed today? >> Posted by: " Anouk Sickler " zurumato zurumato >> Mon Jun 5, 2006 9:30 pm (PDT) >> >> hi >> >> i too admire bravery in men, >> >> but these are young boys, some 18 years old. >> you have to ask, >> >> are they fully aware of all of the details of what exactly it >is >> that they are fighting for? >> >> why aren't the sons of Senators or the Bush Girls >> fighting in this war? >> >> If that were your son, is his life worth this war we are >> fighting? >> >> and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my >son >> be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, >> than for him to be Brave and dead. >> >> The liberal men that you are talking about that, do not Do >anything, >> is probably because the do not believe in this war. >> >> there was a discussion on the radio today, I live in Sarasota, >> FLorida. >> >> you know what the discussion was????? >> >> it was about whether our county has enough money in their >budget >> to fund pre-school for four year old children in september. >> >> >> NOw that is F_)*k up. >> >> Tons of money going into this war, yet >> >> four year old little kids might not be able to attend free >> pre-school!!!! >> >> >> >> >> , lv2breathe@ wrote: >> > >> > >> > I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or >> disrespect them. >> > I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. >If we >> didn't have >> > those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, >whether >> we like >> > it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is >> enlightened enough >> > to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or >madmen in >> the world >> > who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but >> everyone can >> > probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we >will >> need an army. >> > >> > I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of >the >> liberal men >> > I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do >not do >> anything >> > beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a >soldier >> does something. >> > We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. >Someone has >> to do >> > it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his >all....even if you >> disagree >> > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with >> courage, with a >> > sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country >and are >> acting from a >> > sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential >> motivation >> > cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how >they want >> to help their >> > fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The >men I know >> > personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male >friend I >> know of) barely >> > are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, >much >> less risk their >> > lives. >> > >> > I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our >> government is >> > doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most >> selfless people I >> > can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the >war...but take >> it up >> > with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think >it's >> right to be >> > hard on soldiers, they are only serving. >> > >> > Soliel >> > >> > In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >> > writes: >> > >> > Message: 23 >> > Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) >> > " fraggle " EBbrewpunx@ >> > Re: have you killed today? >> > >> > >> > well..yes and no >> > some folks join fer the macho " my gun is bigger then yer >gun " , and >> > >> > > > > > > > > >To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 7, 2006 hi peter, i agree with everything that you said. , " Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab wrote: > > Hi Soliel > > > If we didn't have those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. > > If we didn't have those who served, Hitler would never have got started in > the first place! > > > IMO, whether we like it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the > world is enlightened > > enough to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in > the world who want > > to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but everyone can probably > agree that the > > leader of Iran is one of them), we will need an army. > > Well, firstly, I wouldn't agree that the leader of Iran is one of them. What > makes you say this? > > Secondly... even if he is, how many threats has he made to England / > America... absolutely none. So, what exactly are we protecting ourselves > against? > > >I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the liberal men > I know, and of course > > this is only the sampling I have, do not do anything beyond themselves. > They love to sit and > > complain but a soldier *does* something. We need men to DO something or > nothing would get > > done. > > Exactly.. we need people to fight, or wars would never happen! (Geez, > wouldn't that be a terrible thing). > > > Someone has to do it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his > all....even if you disagree > > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with courage, with > a sense of service. Most > > have a deep love for their country and are acting from a sense of good > even though that can > > be debated. The essential motivation cannot. I am amazed at how much they > want to > > help...how they want to help their fellow servicemen, how they are willing > to risk all. The men > > I know personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I > know of) barely are > > willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much less risk > their lives. > > That depends on who you are. If you're protesting against the government, or > involved actively in animal rights, these people who " love their country " > will as happily open fire on their " own " people than on " foreigners " - it's > happened across the world - America, Italy, France. Amazingly it's so far > been avoided in Britain, but it can only be a matter of time (and it did > come scarily close during the G8 protests)... > > >I don't think it's right to be hard on soldiers, they are only serving. > > Yeah - " I was only following orders " is the oldest excuse in the book. > > BB > Peter > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 7, 2006 I agree with peters gandhi example, sometimes the quietest people are the bravest. , " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote: > > Well said Peter. > > BB > Jo > > > - > Peter Kebbell > > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 9:34 AM > Re: Re: have you killed today? > > > > Hi Anouk / Soliel > > > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > > than for him to be Brave and dead. > > I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of the bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in a field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takes bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members of the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery only considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun? > > BB > Peter > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
