Guest guest Report post Posted June 5, 2006 U.K. to get tough with deserters Last Updated Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:42:41 EDT CBC News Britain's Ministry of Defence says nearly 1,000 British soldiers have deserted from the army since the invasion of Iraq. More than 900 have evaded arrest and are still on the run. In 2001, 86 soldiers were missing. That number jumped to 377 in 2005. So far, in 2006, 189 soldiers are considered absent without leave. Those numbers don't take into account ex-soldiers like Ben Griffin, a former SAS paratrooper who served in Iraq for four months last year. When he returned to Britain on leave, he knew he could not go back. " There's this sort of opinion that soldiers aren't capable of making the decisions between right and wrong, " said Griffin. " It's like, 'Who are you to decide whether the war in Iraq is wrong?' Well I've been to Iraq, I've seen what's going on, and I know it's wrong. " Griffin says the war was destroying too many innocent lives. He did not desert, but he understands the discontent many say is behind the growing number of soldiers gone AWOL. The ministry of defence refuses to draw a link between increased desertions and the war in Iraq. But the government is trying to clamp down on dissent by introducing a controversial bill that would put soldiers in prison for life for refusing to serve in Iraq. Gilbert Blades, a military expert and a lawyer who represents soldiers at courts martial, says the government is doing what it can to control dissent in the ranks. Griffin was allowed to leave the military after telling his commanding officer he was not prepared to return to Iraq. He is now studying to become an ambulance technician. I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 5, 2006 Interesting to see what the figures are from your side of the water Fraggle?, quite a few "born again Canadians " I bet? The Valley Vegan.................. Endless violence, endless hatredEndless empire tyrannyWill you make a stand for human dignity?Or never ending hate?fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: U.K. to get tough with desertersLast Updated Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:42:41 EDTCBC NewsBritain's Ministry of Defence says nearly 1,000 British soldiers havedeserted from the army since the invasion of Iraq.More than 900 have evaded arrest and are still on the run.In 2001, 86 soldiers were missing. That number jumped to 377 in 2005.So far, in 2006, 189 soldiers are considered absent without leave.Those numbers don't take into account ex-soldiers like Ben Griffin, aformer SAS paratrooper who served in Iraq for four months last year.When he returned to Britain on leave, he knew he could not go back."There's this sort of opinion that soldiers aren't capable of makingthe decisions between right and wrong," said Griffin. "It's like, 'Whoare you to decide whether the war in Iraq is wrong?' Well I've been toIraq, I've seen what's going on, and I know it's wrong."Griffin says the war was destroying too many innocent lives. He did notdesert, but he understands the discontent many say is behind thegrowing number of soldiers gone AWOL.The ministry of defence refuses to draw a link between increaseddesertions and the war in Iraq. But the government is trying to clampdown on dissent by introducing a controversial bill that would putsoldiers in prison for life for refusing to serve in Iraq.Gilbert Blades, a military expert and a lawyer who represents soldiersat courts martial, says the government is doing what it can to controldissent in the ranks.Griffin was allowed to leave the military after telling his commandingofficer he was not prepared to return to Iraq. He is now studying tobecome an ambulance technician.I don't wanna be no war heroDon't want a movie made about meI don't wanna be no war heroJust get away from the madness I see Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 5, 2006 I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or disrespect them. I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If we didn't have those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, whether we like it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is enlightened enough to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in the world who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but everyone can probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will need an army. I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the liberal men I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do anything beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier does something. We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone has to do it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if you disagree with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with courage, with a sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and are acting from a sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential motivation cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they want to help their fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I know personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I know of) barely are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much less risk their lives. I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our government is doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most selfless people I can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but take it up with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it's right to be hard on soldiers, they are only serving. Soliel In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 23 Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) "fraggle" EBbrewpunx Re: have you killed today? well..yes and nosome folks join fer the macho "my gun is bigger then yer gun" , and everything along those lines...then, there's also something to be said, at least in this country(and yers prolly to as well, its a man's life in the army!) about certain sectors of society being targeted to join up, because like, then you get moneys fer skool, and get out of yer dead end life and become someone and travel and be kewl and play video games and ...yeah..well..some people believe anythinghere they actively recruit in skools, malls, job fairs....and yet somehow they never seem to recruit in beverly hills or in congress...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 5, 2006 can't run to canada anymore.... they just send em back and refuse asylum peter VV Jun 5, 2006 11:30 AM Re: have you killed today? Interesting to see what the figures are from your side of the water Fraggle?, quite a few "born again Canadians " I bet? The Valley Vegan.................. Endless violence, endless hatredEndless empire tyrannyWill you make a stand for human dignity?Or never ending hate?fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: U.K. to get tough with desertersLast Updated Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:42:41 EDTCBC NewsBritain's Ministry of Defence says nearly 1,000 British soldiers havedeserted from the army since the invasion of Iraq.More than 900 have evaded arrest and are still on the run.In 2001, 86 soldiers were missing. That number jumped to 377 in 2005.So far, in 2006, 189 soldiers are considered absent without leave.Those numbers don't take into account ex-soldiers like Ben Griffin, aformer SAS paratrooper who served in Iraq for four months last year.When he returned to Britain on leave, he knew he could not go back."There's this sort of opinion that soldiers aren't capable of makingthe decisions between right and wrong," said Griffin. "It's like, 'Whoare you to decide whether the war in Iraq is wrong?' Well I've been toIraq, I've seen what's going on, and I know it's wrong."Griffin says the war was destroying too many innocent lives. He did notdesert, but he understands the discontent many say is behind thegrowing number of soldiers gone AWOL.The ministry of defence refuses to draw a link between increaseddesertions and the war in Iraq. But the government is trying to clampdown on dissent by introducing a controversial bill that would putsoldiers in prison for life for refusing to serve in Iraq.Gilbert Blades, a military expert and a lawyer who represents soldiersat courts martial, says the government is doing what it can to controldissent in the ranks.Griffin was allowed to leave the military after telling his commandingofficer he was not prepared to return to Iraq. He is now studying tobecome an ambulance technician.I don't wanna be no war heroDon't want a movie made about meI don't wanna be no war heroJust get away from the madness I see Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 5, 2006 Hi Fraggle > " There's this sort of opinion that soldiers aren't capable of making > the decisions between right and wrong, " said Griffin. " It's like, 'Who > are you to decide whether the war in Iraq is wrong?' Well I've been to > Iraq, I've seen what's going on, and I know it's wrong. " Y'know - as much as I'm against the war in Iraq (or any other war), I have to wonder what these people thought their they were doing when they joined the army and were given deadly weapons to play with.... the whole point of " soldiers " throughout history has been to do what they're told without questioning! BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 5, 2006 well..yes and no some folks join fer the macho " my gun is bigger then yer gun " , and everything along those lines... then, there's also something to be said, at least in this country(and yers prolly to as well, its a man's life in the army!) about certain sectors of society being targeted to join up, because like, then you get moneys fer skool, and get out of yer dead end life and become someone and travel and be kewl and play video games and ... yeah..well..some people believe anything here they actively recruit in skools, malls, job fairs.... and yet somehow they never seem to recruit in beverly hills or in congress...... >Peter <metalscarab >Jun 5, 2006 1:58 PM > >Re: have you killed today? > >Hi Fraggle > >> " There's this sort of opinion that soldiers aren't capable of making >> the decisions between right and wrong, " said Griffin. " It's like, 'Who >> are you to decide whether the war in Iraq is wrong?' Well I've been to >> Iraq, I've seen what's going on, and I know it's wrong. " > >Y'know - as much as I'm against the war in Iraq (or any other war), I have >to wonder what these people thought their they were doing when they joined >the army and were given deadly weapons to play with.... the whole point of > " soldiers " throughout history has been to do what they're told without >questioning! > >BB >Peter > > > > >To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 hi fraggle, i work in research and the US Department of Defense is doing A LOT of research right now on what it is they have to do to get kids to sign up more, they want to find out what people think exactly of them, what strategies to get into peoples minds, etc. It is being paid for by our tax dollars. , fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: > > well..yes and no > some folks join fer the macho " my gun is bigger then yer gun " , and everything along those lines... > then, there's also something to be said, at least in this country(and yers prolly to as well, its a man's life in the army!) about certain sectors of society being targeted to join up, because like, then you get moneys fer skool, and get out of yer dead end life and become someone and travel and be kewl and play video games and ... > yeah..well..some people believe anything > here they actively recruit in skools, malls, job fairs.... > and yet somehow they never seem to recruit in beverly hills or in congress...... > > > >Peter <metalscarab > >Jun 5, 2006 1:58 PM > > > >Re: have you killed today? > > > >Hi Fraggle > > > >> " There's this sort of opinion that soldiers aren't capable of making > >> the decisions between right and wrong, " said Griffin. " It's like, 'Who > >> are you to decide whether the war in Iraq is wrong?' Well I've been to > >> Iraq, I've seen what's going on, and I know it's wrong. " > > > >Y'know - as much as I'm against the war in Iraq (or any other war), I have > >to wonder what these people thought their they were doing when they joined > >the army and were given deadly weapons to play with.... the whole point of > > " soldiers " throughout history has been to do what they're told without > >questioning! > > > >BB > >Peter > > > > > > > > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 hi i too admire bravery in men, but these are young boys, some 18 years old. you have to ask, are they fully aware of all of the details of what exactly it is that they are fighting for? why aren't the sons of Senators or the Bush Girls fighting in this war? If that were your son, is his life worth this war we are fighting? and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, than for him to be Brave and dead. The liberal men that you are talking about that, do not Do anything, is probably because the do not believe in this war. there was a discussion on the radio today, I live in Sarasota, FLorida. you know what the discussion was????? it was about whether our county has enough money in their budget to fund pre-school for four year old children in september. NOw that is F_)*k up. Tons of money going into this war, yet four year old little kids might not be able to attend free pre-school!!!! , lv2breathe wrote: > > > I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or disrespect them. > I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If we didn't have > those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, whether we like > it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is enlightened enough > to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in the world > who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but everyone can > probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will need an army. > > I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the liberal men > I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do anything > beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier does something. > We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone has to do > it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if you disagree > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with courage, with a > sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and are acting from a > sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential motivation > cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they want to help their > fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I know > personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I know of) barely > are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much less risk their > lives. > > I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our government is > doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most selfless people I > can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but take it up > with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it's right to be > hard on soldiers, they are only serving. > > Soliel > > In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > writes: > > Message: 23 > Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) > " fraggle " EBbrewpunx > Re: have you killed today? > > > well..yes and no > some folks join fer the macho " my gun is bigger then yer gun " , and > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Anouk I think most people become soldiers without thinking - it is advertised as a good career - learn this, learn that etc. The others who join are bullies and like the idea of the power. I do not hate soldiers but I do not admire them. My admiration goes towards men who are brave enough to say that they will not follow a bully, and will not kill other people. I admire a conscientious objector much more than a soldier. It seems strange to me that in any war it is always thousands/millions of soldiers/civilians that get killed and maimed and yet the leaders who called the war remain unharmed. If it was not a game then surely it would be an easy matter to kill the opposing leaders and not have a full scale war! Of course, to the leaders the men who are silly enough to join the forces are disposable. Why is the leader of Iran worse than say, Bush? Jo , lv2breathe wrote: > > > I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or disrespect them. > I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If we didn't have > those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, whether we like > it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is enlightened enough > to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in the world > who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but everyone can > probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will need an army. > > I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the liberal men > I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do anything > beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier does something. > We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone has to do > it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if you disagree > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with courage, with a > sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and are acting from a > sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential motivation > cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they want to help their > fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I know > personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I know of) barely > are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much less risk their > lives. > > I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our government is > doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most selfless people I > can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but take it up > with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it's right to be > hard on soldiers, they are only serving. > > Soliel > > In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > writes: > > Message: 23 > Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) > " fraggle " EBbrewpunx > Re: have you killed today? > > > well..yes and no > some folks join fer the macho " my gun is bigger then yer gun " , and > everything along those lines... > then, there's also something to be said, at least in this country (and yers > prolly to as well, its a man's life in the army!) about certain sectors of > society being targeted to join up, because like, then you get moneys fer skool, > and get out of yer dead end life and become someone and travel and be kewl > and play video games and ... > yeah..well..some people believe anything > here they actively recruit in skools, malls, job fairs.... > and yet somehow they never seem to recruit in beverly hills or in > congress...... > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Sorry - I wrongly addressed this to Anouk. Jo , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork wrote: > > Anouk > > I think most people become soldiers without thinking - it is > advertised as a good career - learn this, learn that etc. The others > who join are bullies and like the idea of the power. > > I do not hate soldiers but I do not admire them. My admiration goes > towards men who are brave enough to say that they will not follow a > bully, and will not kill other people. I admire a conscientious > objector much more than a soldier. > > It seems strange to me that in any war it is always > thousands/millions of soldiers/civilians that get killed and maimed > and yet the leaders who called the war remain unharmed. If it was > not a game then surely it would be an easy matter to kill the > opposing leaders and not have a full scale war! Of course, to the > leaders the men who are silly enough to join the forces are > disposable. > > Why is the leader of Iran worse than say, Bush? > > Jo > > , lv2breathe@ wrote: > > > > > > I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or > disrespect them. > > I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If we > didn't have > > those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, > whether we like > > it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is > enlightened enough > > to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in > the world > > who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but > everyone can > > probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will > need an army. > > > > I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the > liberal men > > I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do > anything > > beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier > does something. > > We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone > has to do > > it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if > you disagree > > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with > courage, with a > > sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and are > acting from a > > sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential > motivation > > cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they want > to help their > > fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I > know > > personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I > know of) barely > > are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much > less risk their > > lives. > > > > I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our > government is > > doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most > selfless people I > > can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but take > it up > > with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it's > right to be > > hard on soldiers, they are only serving. > > > > Soliel > > > > In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > writes: > > > > Message: 23 > > Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) > > " fraggle " EBbrewpunx@ > > Re: have you killed today? > > > > > > well..yes and no > > some folks join fer the macho " my gun is bigger then yer gun " , > and > > everything along those lines... > > then, there's also something to be said, at least in this country > (and yers > > prolly to as well, its a man's life in the army!) about certain > sectors of > > society being targeted to join up, because like, then you get > moneys fer skool, > > and get out of yer dead end life and become someone and travel and > be kewl > > and play video games and ... > > yeah..well..some people believe anything > > here they actively recruit in skools, malls, job fairs.... > > and yet somehow they never seem to recruit in beverly hills or in > > congress...... > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Anouk I agree with what you say. We have the same problems here - not enough money for our hospitals and schools - yet we fund the invasion of other countries and the killing of other people :-( I would not want my son to be conscripted - we were prepared to move to Germany when there was talk of conscription here - and anyone who knows me knows what a drastic decision that is for me to make. Jo , " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato wrote: > > hi > > i too admire bravery in men, > > but these are young boys, some 18 years old. > you have to ask, > > are they fully aware of all of the details of what exactly it is > that they are fighting for? > > why aren't the sons of Senators or the Bush Girls > fighting in this war? > > If that were your son, is his life worth this war we are > fighting? > > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > than for him to be Brave and dead. > > The liberal men that you are talking about that, do not Do anything, > is probably because the do not believe in this war. > > there was a discussion on the radio today, I live in Sarasota, > FLorida. > > you know what the discussion was????? > > it was about whether our county has enough money in their budget > to fund pre-school for four year old children in september. > > > NOw that is F_)*k up. > > Tons of money going into this war, yet > > four year old little kids might not be able to attend free > pre-school!!!! > > > > > , lv2breathe@ wrote: > > > > > > I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or > disrespect them. > > I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If we > didn't have > > those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, whether > we like > > it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is > enlightened enough > > to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in > the world > > who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but > everyone can > > probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will > need an army. > > > > I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the > liberal men > > I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do > anything > > beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier > does something. > > We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone has > to do > > it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if you > disagree > > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with > courage, with a > > sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and are > acting from a > > sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential > motivation > > cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they want > to help their > > fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I know > > personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I > know of) barely > > are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much > less risk their > > lives. > > > > I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our > government is > > doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most > selfless people I > > can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but take > it up > > with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it's > right to be > > hard on soldiers, they are only serving. > > > > Soliel > > > > In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > writes: > > > > Message: 23 > > Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) > > " fraggle " EBbrewpunx@ > > Re: have you killed today? > > > > > > well..yes and no > > some folks join fer the macho " my gun is bigger then yer gun " , and > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Soliel > If we didn't have those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. If we didn't have those who served, Hitler would never have got started in the first place! > IMO, whether we like it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is enlightened > enough to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in the world who want > to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but everyone can probably agree that the > leader of Iran is one of them), we will need an army. Well, firstly, I wouldn't agree that the leader of Iran is one of them. What makes you say this? Secondly... even if he is, how many threats has he made to England / America... absolutely none. So, what exactly are we protecting ourselves against? >I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the liberal men I know, and of course > this is only the sampling I have, do not do anything beyond themselves. They love to sit and > complain but a soldier does something. We need men to DO something or nothing would get > done. Exactly.. we need people to fight, or wars would never happen! (Geez, wouldn't that be a terrible thing). > Someone has to do it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if you disagree > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with courage, with a sense of service. Most > have a deep love for their country and are acting from a sense of good even though that can > be debated. The essential motivation cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to > help...how they want to help their fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men > I know personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I know of) barely are > willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much less risk their lives. That depends on who you are. If you're protesting against the government, or involved actively in animal rights, these people who " love their country " will as happily open fire on their " own " people than on " foreigners " - it's happened across the world - America, Italy, France. Amazingly it's so far been avoided in Britain, but it can only be a matter of time (and it did come scarily close during the G8 protests)... >I don't think it's right to be hard on soldiers, they are only serving. Yeah - " I was only following orders " is the oldest excuse in the book. BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Anouk / Soliel > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > than for him to be Brave and dead. I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of the bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in a field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takes bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members of the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery only considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun? BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Can someone please let me know when this entire conversation is over? I think it is great everyone here wants to discuss it and I love all of our open views. But I just can't participate in this one. Hits too close to home. My basic thoughts are this, until you live in the shoes of the person serving (any country, any army) you cannot judge. You just cannot judge. I do not advocate killing another, attacking for no reason, etc etc etc I do not agree with alot of things both sides have written here either and then there is many that I do. But who gives us the right to judge another? Just like I have no right to judge anyone's thoughts here. So before I start taking this great discussion personal, I have to go for a bit until it is over. And I will leave it at that. Blessings, Nikki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 My response is.... I agree that the elites children should fight, too. In fact, all young people should do some kind of service...it doesn't have to be military but some kind of service. I disagree with the bravery statement. Everything Great in this world has come because of courage and initiative. Every good cause was fought by those who are brave. And in the case of WW2 bravery was what saved the day. Sure, many can live and be a coward but then that is what you become. As far as the liberal men I was talking about...I was talking about the causes they so proclaimed to love. One of them always talks about the ocean and how much they love it and the animals in it...but he can't even organize himself to complete an online petition. And don't even think about giving any money away...he is so tight. Even though he has no job (recieves an income, though) he won't even spare any time to what he says he loves. I ask him, "if you don't do anything who will"? This is opposed to the great man Paul Watson....who is BRAVE, who takes initiative, who stands for something, who has given of himself over and over. I would say that Paul Watson is a much better man than the guy I know because he does have the qualities of selflessness, bravery and standing up for what he believes. And soldiers do, too. And then my last bf....he is has stated outloud that he wants to be "selfish" and he is just not going to give anything back. Funny thing is, he used to be nice and willing to give back in some way but not anymore. As for the preschool issue...I feel it's apples and oranges. I am not convinced the war and that are directly related. Even without a war, I am not sure others are wanting to pay for it. There maybe many reasons why this didn't pass....local funds are low....public doesn't believe the government will provide good services....I am just guessing. By the way, if a soldier kills someone who is killing others in mass...I would say that is GOOD. That prevents many others from suffering and being killed. Also, soldiers are doing MUCH more than killing, much more. They are often the ones keeping the peace, which is priceless. I salute them...they are so judged for doing a job that has to be done. They face the nitty gritty, that so often has no easy answers, in life while those who judge them so easily want to just keep their hands clean. Soliel In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: 6b. Re: have you killed today? Posted by: "Anouk Sickler" zurumato zurumato Mon Jun 5, 2006 9:30 pm (PDT)hii too admire bravery in men, but these are young boys, some 18 years old.you have to ask, are they fully aware of all of the details of what exactly it is that they are fighting for?why aren't the sons of Senators or the Bush Girls fighting in this war?If that were your son, is his life worth this war we are fighting? and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, than for him to be Brave and dead. The liberal men that you are talking about that, do not Do anything,is probably because the do not believe in this war. there was a discussion on the radio today, I live in Sarasota,FLorida. you know what the discussion was?????it was about whether our county has enough money in their budgetto fund pre-school for four year old children in september.NOw that is F_)*k up. Tons of money going into this war, yet four year old little kids might not be able to attend free pre-school!!!! , lv2breathe wrote:>> > I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them ordisrespect them. > I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If wedidn't have > those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, whetherwe like > it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is enlightened enough > to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen inthe world > who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but everyone can > probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will need an army. > > I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the liberal men > I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do anything > beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier does something. > We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone hasto do > it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if youdisagree > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, withcourage, with a > sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and areacting from a > sense of good even though that can be debated. The essentialmotivation > cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they wantto help their > fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I know > personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend Iknow of) barely > are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, muchless risk their > lives.> > I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what ourgovernment is > doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the mostselfless people I > can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but takeit up > with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it'sright to be > hard on soldiers, they are only serving. > > Soliel> > In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > writes:> > Message: 23 > Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) > "fraggle" EBbrewpunx > Re: have you killed today? > > > well..yes and no> some folks join fer the macho "my gun is bigger then yer gun" , and > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 keeping with my theme, the biggest bully of them all is the US as for madmen and iran..... name a country iran invaded.... mayhaps we here need t olook in the mirror... we always hear thimgs like, "would you die for this or that.." how about.. what would you live for???? lv2breathe Jun 5, 2006 3:45 PM Cc: Lv2breathe Re: have you killed today? I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or disrespect them. I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If we didn't have those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, whether we like it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is enlightened enough to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in the world who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but everyone can probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will need an army. I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the liberal men I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do anything beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier does something. We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone has to do it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if you disagree with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with courage, with a sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and are acting from a sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential motivation cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they want to help their fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I know personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I know of) barely are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much less risk their lives. I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our government is doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most selfless people I can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but take it up with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it's right to be hard on soldiers, they are only serving. Soliel In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 23 Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) "fraggle" EBbrewpunx Re: have you killed today? well..yes and nosome folks join fer the macho "my gun is bigger then yer gun" , and everything along those lines...then, there's also something to be said, at least in this country(and yers prolly to as well, its a man's life in the army!) about certain sectors of society being targeted to join up, because like, then you get moneys fer skool, and get out of yer dead end life and become someone and travel and be kewl and play video games and ...yeah..well..some people believe anythinghere they actively recruit in skools, malls, job fairs....and yet somehow they never seem to recruit in beverly hills or in congress...... I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 fyi..thats not anouk who sent that message...just to keep us all on track... cheers >heartwerk <jo.heartwork >Jun 5, 2006 11:45 PM > > Re: have you killed today? > >Anouk > >I think most people become soldiers without thinking - it is >advertised as a good career - learn this, learn that etc. The others >who join are bullies and like the idea of the power. > >I do not hate soldiers but I do not admire them. My admiration goes >towards men who are brave enough to say that they will not follow a >bully, and will not kill other people. I admire a conscientious >objector much more than a soldier. > >It seems strange to me that in any war it is always >thousands/millions of soldiers/civilians that get killed and maimed >and yet the leaders who called the war remain unharmed. If it was >not a game then surely it would be an easy matter to kill the >opposing leaders and not have a full scale war! Of course, to the >leaders the men who are silly enough to join the forces are >disposable. > >Why is the leader of Iran worse than say, Bush? > >Jo > > , lv2breathe wrote: >> >> >> I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or >disrespect them. >> I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If we >didn't have >> those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, >whether we like >> it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is >enlightened enough >> to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in >the world >> who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but >everyone can >> probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will >need an army. >> >> I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the >liberal men >> I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do >anything >> beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier >does something. >> We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone >has to do >> it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if >you disagree >> with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with >courage, with a >> sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and are >acting from a >> sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential >motivation >> cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they want >to help their >> fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I >know >> personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I >know of) barely >> are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much >less risk their >> lives. >> >> I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our >government is >> doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most >selfless people I >> can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but take >it up >> with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it's >right to be >> hard on soldiers, they are only serving. >> >> Soliel >> >> In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >> writes: >> >> Message: 23 >> Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) >> " fraggle " EBbrewpunx >> Re: have you killed today? >> >> >> well..yes and no >> some folks join fer the macho " my gun is bigger then yer gun " , >and >> everything along those lines... >> then, there's also something to be said, at least in this country >(and yers >> prolly to as well, its a man's life in the army!) about certain >sectors of >> society being targeted to join up, because like, then you get >moneys fer skool, >> and get out of yer dead end life and become someone and travel and >be kewl >> and play video games and ... >> yeah..well..some people believe anything >> here they actively recruit in skools, malls, job fairs.... >> and yet somehow they never seem to recruit in beverly hills or in >> congress...... >> > > > > > > > > >To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 and then i was an idiot and pointed it out *sigh* and..fer some reason, can't post a single thing today to the site.... >heartwerk <jo.heartwork >Jun 6, 2006 12:03 AM > > Re: have you killed today? > >Sorry - I wrongly addressed this to Anouk. > >Jo > > , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork >wrote: >> >> Anouk >> >> I think most people become soldiers without thinking - it is >> advertised as a good career - learn this, learn that etc. The >others >> who join are bullies and like the idea of the power. >> >> I do not hate soldiers but I do not admire them. My admiration >goes >> towards men who are brave enough to say that they will not follow a >> bully, and will not kill other people. I admire a conscientious >> objector much more than a soldier. >> >> It seems strange to me that in any war it is always >> thousands/millions of soldiers/civilians that get killed and maimed >> and yet the leaders who called the war remain unharmed. If it was >> not a game then surely it would be an easy matter to kill the >> opposing leaders and not have a full scale war! Of course, to the >> leaders the men who are silly enough to join the forces are >> disposable. >> >> Why is the leader of Iran worse than say, Bush? >> >> Jo >> >> , lv2breathe@ wrote: >> > >> > >> > I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or >> disrespect them. >> > I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If we >> didn't have >> > those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, >> whether we like >> > it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is >> enlightened enough >> > to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen >in >> the world >> > who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but >> everyone can >> > probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will >> need an army. >> > >> > I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the >> liberal men >> > I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not >do >> anything >> > beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier >> does something. >> > We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone >> has to do >> > it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if >> you disagree >> > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with >> courage, with a >> > sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and >are >> acting from a >> > sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential >> motivation >> > cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they >want >> to help their >> > fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I >> know >> > personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend >I >> know of) barely >> > are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much >> less risk their >> > lives. >> > >> > I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our >> government is >> > doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most >> selfless people I >> > can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but >take >> it up >> > with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it's >> right to be >> > hard on soldiers, they are only serving. >> > >> > Soliel >> > >> > In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >> > writes: >> > >> > Message: 23 >> > Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) >> > " fraggle " EBbrewpunx@ >> > Re: have you killed today? >> > >> > >> > well..yes and no >> > some folks join fer the macho " my gun is bigger then yer gun " , >> and >> > everything along those lines... >> > then, there's also something to be said, at least in this country >> (and yers >> > prolly to as well, its a man's life in the army!) about certain >> sectors of >> > society being targeted to join up, because like, then you get >> moneys fer skool, >> > and get out of yer dead end life and become someone and travel >and >> be kewl >> > and play video games and ... >> > yeah..well..some people believe anything >> > here they actively recruit in skools, malls, job fairs.... >> > and yet somehow they never seem to recruit in beverly hills or >in >> > congress...... >> > >> > > > > > > > > >To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 marry me peter..... Peter Kebbell Jun 6, 2006 1:34 AM Re: Re: have you killed today? Hi Anouk / Soliel > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > than for him to be Brave and dead. I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of the bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in a field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takes bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members of the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery only considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun? BB Peter I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 i feel strange answering this if nikki is not gonna see it... but...imo, one could say the same thing about anyone er anything then.. one can not comment on someone who works in a slaughterhouse perchance one can not judge stalin without wearing his shoies etc and so forth... >earthstrm <earthstorm >Jun 6, 2006 4:29 AM > > Re: have you killed today? > >Can someone please let me know when this entire conversation is over? >I think it is great everyone here wants to discuss it and I love all >of our open views. But I just can't participate in this one. Hits too >close to home. > >My basic thoughts are this, until you live in the shoes of the person >serving (any country, any army) you cannot judge. You just cannot >judge. > >I do not advocate killing another, attacking for no reason, etc etc etc > >I do not agree with alot of things both sides have written here either >and then there is many that I do. But who gives us the right to judge >another? Just like I have no right to judge anyone's thoughts here. So >before I start taking this great discussion personal, I have to go for >a bit until it is over. > >And I will leave it at that. > >Blessings, > >Nikki > > > > > > >To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 I saw him first! The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: marry me peter..... Peter Kebbell Jun 6, 2006 1:34 AM Re: Re: have you killed today? Hi Anouk / Soliel > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > than for him to be Brave and dead. I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of the bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in a field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takes bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members of the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery only considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun? BB Peter I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I seePeter H Try the all-new Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Well said Peter. BBJo - Peter Kebbell Tuesday, June 06, 2006 9:34 AM Re: Re: have you killed today? Hi Anouk / Soliel > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > than for him to be Brave and dead. I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of the bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in a field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takes bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members of the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery only considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun? BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 I agree Fraggle Jo - fraggle Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:17 PM Re: Re: have you killed today? keeping with my theme, the biggest bully of them all is the US as for madmen and iran..... name a country iran invaded.... mayhaps we here need t olook in the mirror... we always hear thimgs like, "would you die for this or that.." how about.. what would you live for???? lv2breathe Jun 5, 2006 3:45 PM Cc: Lv2breathe Re: have you killed today? I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or disrespect them. I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If we didn't have those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, whether we like it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is enlightened enough to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in the world who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but everyone can probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will need an army. I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the liberal men I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do anything beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier does something. We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone has to do it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if you disagree with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with courage, with a sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and are acting from a sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential motivation cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they want to help their fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I know personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I know of) barely are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much less risk their lives. I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our government is doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most selfless people I can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but take it up with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it's right to be hard on soldiers, they are only serving. Soliel In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 23 Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) "fraggle" EBbrewpunx Re: have you killed today? well..yes and nosome folks join fer the macho "my gun is bigger then yer gun" , and everything along those lines...then, there's also something to be said, at least in this country(and yers prolly to as well, its a man's life in the army!) about certain sectors of society being targeted to join up, because like, then you get moneys fer skool, and get out of yer dead end life and become someone and travel and be kewl and play video games and ...yeah..well..some people believe anythinghere they actively recruit in skools, malls, job fairs....and yet somehow they never seem to recruit in beverly hills or in congress...... I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 And dont forget Martin Luther King.............. The Valley Vegan................Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Anouk / Soliel > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > than for him to be Brave and dead. I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of the bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in a field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takes bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members of the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery only considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun? BB Peter Peter H Try the all-new Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Fraggle Thanks - I realised that when I came to Anouk's answer to it - and posted to apologise. BBJo - fraggle Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:07 PM Re: Re: have you killed today? fyi..thats not anouk who sent that message...just to keep us all on track...cheers>heartwerk <jo.heartwork >>Jun 5, 2006 11:45 PM> > Re: have you killed today?>>Anouk>>I think most people become soldiers without thinking - it is >advertised as a good career - learn this, learn that etc. The others >who join are bullies and like the idea of the power.>>I do not hate soldiers but I do not admire them. My admiration goes >towards men who are brave enough to say that they will not follow a >bully, and will not kill other people. I admire a conscientious >objector much more than a soldier.>>It seems strange to me that in any war it is always >thousands/millions of soldiers/civilians that get killed and maimed >and yet the leaders who called the war remain unharmed. If it was >not a game then surely it would be an easy matter to kill the >opposing leaders and not have a full scale war! Of course, to the >leaders the men who are silly enough to join the forces are >disposable.>>Why is the leader of Iran worse than say, Bush? >>Jo> > , lv2breathe wrote:>>>> >> I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or >disrespect them. >> I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If we >didn't have >> those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, >whether we like >> it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is >enlightened enough >> to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in >the world >> who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but >everyone can >> probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will >need an army. >> >> I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the >liberal men >> I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do >anything >> beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier >does something. >> We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone >has to do >> it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if >you disagree >> with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with >courage, with a >> sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and are >acting from a >> sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential >motivation >> cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they want >to help their >> fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I >know >> personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I >know of) barely >> are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much >less risk their >> lives.>> >> I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our >government is >> doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most >selfless people I >> can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but take >it up >> with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it's >right to be >> hard on soldiers, they are only serving. >> >> Soliel>> >> In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >> writes:>> >> Message: 23 >> Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) >> "fraggle" EBbrewpunx >> Re: have you killed today? >> >> >> well..yes and no>> some folks join fer the macho "my gun is bigger then yer gun" , >and >> everything along those lines...>> then, there's also something to be said, at least in this country>(and yers >> prolly to as well, its a man's life in the army!) about certain >sectors of >> society being targeted to join up, because like, then you get >moneys fer skool, >> and get out of yer dead end life and become someone and travel and >be kewl >> and play video games and ...>> yeah..well..some people believe anything>> here they actively recruit in skools, malls, job fairs....>> and yet somehow they never seem to recruit in beverly hills or in >> congress......>>>>>>>>>>>To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
