Guest guest Report post Posted June 7, 2006 amen, what you said fraggle, in a nutshell it is a question of messed up priorities. -anouk fraggle wrote: on the service part what sort of service? who decides? what if you don't believe in it? how about service to humanity? how about service to the world and everything that resides there in? why does it have t o be young people? and, if you may ask, have you ever completed such a service? what do you consider brave? is someone who blows him/herself up fer wotever cause any different/braver then someone who kills someone in a " declared " act of war? (btw..i'm just asking) preskool and money sure lots of reasons but...how can we on the one hand spend billions and billions and billions on bombing and killing and destroying and then have no money for skools? you don't see a connection? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 7, 2006 Hi Fraggle Thank you, but I do not know enough about what you are talking about to comment on most of it to be honest. What I was again looking at was the discussion of armies and soldiers. But i think I had better back out of this conversation entirely, because again I do not know enough about it and not enough about your statements here. I have specific things I know about and things I have read and I do not think it is enough to continue on. I do want to say tho going back to Peter's post that I have to disagree with this part too: > >> And, as I've already pointed out, WWII would never have happened > >>if people had been brave in the first place, and stood up for what > >>was right. It sounds as if he is saying that no one stood up against or tried to stand up against the wrong doings going on in the war or even pre- war. And I don't think that is what he means or at least hope not. Taking Germany as an example, there were many Germans who stood against what was going on and many who died for doing so. Or watched their families die for doing so. Nikki , fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: > > hey nikki > i think wot peter was refering to was the many causes of WWII, and how the west through whichever means, helped bring all the hell of WWII, down upon the world > one has to look at the causes of why things occured > and, i've long since learned (hopefully anyways) that there are more then two sides to every story... > > fer our part...US big business walked hand in goosestep with the nazi party... > business is business.,, > heck, even bush's grandpappy Prescott held companies for Thyssen > coca-cola > ibm > > examples are legion.... > > and, even better > much of hitler's monstrous plans of ethnic cleansing came from..right here in the good ol USA.... > > unfortunately...we often are much to ready to look at the symptoms of something..and leap from there..as opposed to rooting out the causes of something > > > >earthstrm <earthstorm > >Jun 6, 2006 4:47 PM > > > > Re: have you killed today? > > > >Hi Peter > > > >Not picking on you personally here, but you bring up a good > >statement. So to go a bit off page and still stay on the same > >discussion: > > > >> And, as I've already pointed out, WWII would never have happened > >>if people had been brave in the first place, and stood up for what > >>was right. WWII was the result of horrific oppression of the German > >>people - it was a perfect example of creating a problem in order to > >>justify a war, as has happened with every war. > > > >A lot of Lithuanians would not have survived this period with their > >fight against Russia had Lithuania not have had an army which they > >used to help then be brave in the first place and stand up for what > >was right. And alot did not survive even tho they did that. > > > >And then there were other countries too, I know. I just know more of > >the Lithuanian involvement and am already getting in too deep. > > > >WWII is not just about Germany and Hitler. There was a lot of cause > >and effect from this and before this. > > > >And what about the US involvement? They stood up for what was right > >and lent aid and support in this war and no oil was involved at that > >time. So question to everyone, should the US have stayed out of this > >war? > > > >BB > >Nikki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 7, 2006 Hi Nikki >A lot of Lithuanians would not have survived this period with their>fight against Russia had Lithuania not have had an army which they>used to help then be brave in the first place and stand up for what >was right. And alot did not survive even tho they did that. But again, the issue was a result of people not standing up for what was right in the first place. The Soviet Union at the time you're talking about was the result of Stalinist politics, and Stalin was a result of the Western powers waging a savage war against communist Russia during the early 1920s. If people had refused to take up weapons against Russia in the early 1920s, the economic and political situation which led to Stalin's rise to power would never have happened, and Russia would have almost certainly developed as state run along genuine Marxist ideals, and would have felt no need to create a " buffer zone " of satellite states to protect itself from invasion by Britain, France and America. In which case, Lithuania would never have been a target of Stalinist aggression. (You know, it's been almost a decade since I studied this stuff, and I'm impressed at just how much I can remember! :-)) >WWII is not just about Germany and Hitler. There was a lot of cause >and effect from this and before this. Absolutely, but ultimately, the European part of that war was a result of the vicious politics of France, England and America toward the defeated powers of the first world war. Hitler became a figurehead to fight against that oppression, which is why he became such a hero to the peoples of those oppressed nations. >And what about the US involvement? They stood up for what was right >and lent aid and support in this war and no oil was involved at that>time. Well, the US involvement was manufactured from the mid 1930s. There's documents written by Roosevelt and his military chiefs from 1937 and 1938 which state that his government was expecting a war in Europe, and that America should attempt to involve itself, but needed a way to " bring the people of America " on side - in these memos, it basically states that they could not do this without making the American people feel as though they were under threat from a foreign power, and state that their best option for this is to create a war with Japan which they could then use as a stepping stone to become involved in the war in Europe. The documents go on to lay out a plan in which they could provoke Japan into a war, and " make it appear as though Japan is the aggressor " by providing troops, weapons and funding to the Chinese, as well as using sanctions against Japan. So, basically, America's involvement in the second world war had nothing whatsoever to do with " what was right " , or " lending support and aid " , it was all organised long before there was any war, and was much more to do with bolstering the US economy. You also notice that the American government wasn't too fussed about " doing the right thing " when it came to the end of the war, and actively helped a large number of nazis escape prosecution in return for their working for the American government.... > So question to everyone, should the US have stayed out of this>war? Well, I don't think there should have been a war, but since America were heavily involved in manipulating events to create the war, it would have been rather unfair on them if they couldn't take part... just a shame it wasn't the people who actually manufactured the war who got killed during it! BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 7, 2006 Hi Nikki >It sounds as if he is saying that no one stood up against or tried>to stand up against the wrong doings going on in the war or even pre->war. And I don't think that is what he means or at least hope not. >Taking Germany as an example, there were many Germans who stood>against what was going on and many who died for doing so. Or watched>their families die for doing so.That's not what I meant. I wasn't talking about people in Germany standing up against nazism, I was talking about a distinct lack of people during the 1920s and early 1930s in Britain, France and America standing up for what was right - I am not aware of anyone challenging any of the governments in their treatment of Germany during this period. I have never seen a single document from anyone in any of these countries that attempted to do anything to relieve the suffering of the German people during this period (and don't get me started on things like the Marshall Plan and the Young Plan, which, had it not been for the second world war, would have maintained Germany in the state of poverty it was in 1932 for at least 200 years). Maybe a handful of people did, but a lot more were more interested in taking " revenge " on the defeated axis powers of the first world war and making innocent people in those countries suffer. It is the lack of people standing up for what is right in these countries that led to the people of Germany turning to an extremist fascist to give them a chance at some basic dignity, and survival. BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 7, 2006 Hi Nikki I assumed Peter was talking about standing up to the governments (of the countries that kept Germany way down) before it got to the stage of the Germans being so down that the only way up seemed to be to support someone who wanted to invade other countries and kill people. Jo - earthstrm Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:47 AM Re: have you killed today? Hi PeterNot picking on you personally here, but you bring up a good statement. So to go a bit off page and still stay on the same discussion:> And, as I've already pointed out, WWII would never have happened >if people had been brave in the first place, and stood up for what >was right. WWII was the result of horrific oppression of the German >people - it was a perfect example of creating a problem in order to >justify a war, as has happened with every war.A lot of Lithuanians would not have survived this period with their fight against Russia had Lithuania not have had an army which they used to help then be brave in the first place and stand up for what was right. And alot did not survive even tho they did that.And then there were other countries too, I know. I just know more of the Lithuanian involvement and am already getting in too deep.WWII is not just about Germany and Hitler. There was a lot of cause and effect from this and before this.And what about the US involvement? They stood up for what was right and lent aid and support in this war and no oil was involved at that time. So question to everyone, should the US have stayed out of this war?BBNikki , "Peter" <metalscarab wrote:>> Hi Soliel> > I would like to ask you the question that I ask all people who support the war.... in opposing war, I get up off my backside, and go on demonstrations, write letters, sign petitions, and basically act according to my beliefs (even when surrounded by riot police and faced by armed marines).... when will you be signing up to go and fight in the wars you support?> > And, as I've already pointed out, WWII would never have happened if people had been brave in the first place, and stood up for what was right. WWII was the result of horrific oppression of the German people - it was a perfect example of creating a problem in order to justify a war, as has happened with every war. I think it's incredibly sad that otherwise intelligent people still fail to recognise just how much the people in power and in the media create problems in order to justify violence, and actually support these people in doing so.> > BB> Pete> > > - > lv2breathe > > Cc: Lv2breathe > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:31 PM> Re: have you killed today?> > > > > My response is....> > I agree that the elites children should fight, too. In fact, all young people should do some kind of service...it doesn't have to be military but some kind of service.> > I disagree with the bravery statement. Everything Great in this world has come because of courage and initiative. Every good cause was fought by those who are brave. And in the case of WW2 bravery was what saved the day. Sure, many can live and be a coward but then that is what you become. > > As far as the liberal men I was talking about...I was talking about the causes they so proclaimed to love. One of them always talks about the ocean and how much they love it and the animals in it...but he can't even organize himself to complete an online petition. And don't even think about giving any money away...he is so tight. Even though he has no job (recieves an income, though) he won't even spare any time to what he says he loves. I ask him, "if you don't do anything who will"?> > This is opposed to the great man Paul Watson....who is BRAVE, who takes initiative, who stands for something, who has given of himself over and over. I would say that Paul Watson is a much better man than the guy I know because he does have the qualities of selflessness, bravery and standing up for what he believes. And soldiers do, too. > > And then my last bf....he is has stated outloud that he wants to be "selfish" and he is just not going to give anything back. Funny thing is, he used to be nice and willing to give back in some way but not anymore. > > As for the preschool issue...I feel it's apples and oranges. I am not convinced the war and that are directly related. Even without a war, I am not sure others are wanting to pay for it. There maybe many reasons why this didn't pass....local funds are low....public doesn't believe the government will provide good services....I am just guessing.> > By the way, if a soldier kills someone who is killing others in mass...I would say that is GOOD. That prevents many others from suffering and being killed. Also, soldiers are doing MUCH more than killing, much more. They are often the ones keeping the peace, which is priceless. > > I salute them...they are so judged for doing a job that has to be done. They face the nitty gritty, that so often has no easy answers, in life while those who judge them so easily want to just keep their hands clean.> > Soliel> > > > In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:> 6b. Re: have you killed today?> Posted by: "Anouk Sickler" zurumato zurumato> Mon Jun 5, 2006 9:30 pm (PDT)> > hi> > i too admire bravery in men, > > but these are young boys, some 18 years old.> you have to ask, > > are they fully aware of all of the details of what exactly it is > that they are fighting for?> > why aren't the sons of Senators or the Bush Girls > fighting in this war?> > If that were your son, is his life worth this war we are > fighting? > > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > than for him to be Brave and dead. > > The liberal men that you are talking about that, do not Do anything,> is probably because the do not believe in this war. > > there was a discussion on the radio today, I live in Sarasota,> FLorida. > > you know what the discussion was?????> > it was about whether our county has enough money in their budget> to fund pre-school for four year old children in september.> > > NOw that is F_)*k up. > > Tons of money going into this war, yet > > four year old little kids might not be able to attend free > pre-school!!!!> > > > > , lv2breathe@ wrote:> >> > > > I have a different view of soldiers. I don't hate them or> disrespect them. > > I think it takes enormous courage and fortitude to serve. If we> didn't have > > those who served, Hitler would not have been stopped. IMO, whether> we like > > it or not, sometimes we need soldiers...until the world is > enlightened enough > > to not need them. Until there are no longer bullies or madmen in> the world > > who want to commit harm (and I know this can be debated, but > everyone can > > probably agree that the leader of Iran is one of them), we will > need an army. > > > > I, in fact, think they are the bravest men I know. Most of the > liberal men > > I know, and of course this is only the sampling I have, do not do > anything > > beyond themselves. They love to sit and complain but a soldier > does something. > > We need men to DO something or nothing would get done. Someone has> to do > > it-exclamation- A soldier is willing to give his all....even if you> disagree > > with the war, the soldier is still acting from virtue, with> courage, with a > > sense of service. Most have a deep love for their country and are> acting from a > > sense of good even though that can be debated. The essential> motivation > > cannot. I am amazed at how much they want to help...how they want> to help their > > fellow servicemen, how they are willing to risk all. The men I know > > personally (I am thinking of my last two bf's, and a male friend I> know of) barely > > are willing to give 20 bucks and or their time to a cause, much> less risk their > > lives.> > > > I salute them...even when I if I may disagree with what our> government is > > doing..because soldiers are the most courageious and the most> selfless people I > > can think of. I think it's OK to disagree with the war...but take> it up > > with the elites who have made that decision...I don't think it's> right to be > > hard on soldiers, they are only serving. > > > > Soliel> > > > In a message dated 6/5/06 3:32:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > writes:> > > > Message: 23 > > Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT) > > "fraggle" EBbrewpunx@ > > Re: have you killed today? > > > > > > well..yes and no> > some folks join fer the macho "my gun is bigger then yer gun" , and > >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 7, 2006 Hi Nikki I am no expert but I think Peter is referring to the period from WWI to WWII and all the opportunities that there were for countries to help rebuild Germany so that it did not have to fight itself out of a pit. Jo - earthstrm Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:32 PM Re: have you killed today? Hi FraggleThank you, but I do not know enough about what you are talking about to comment on most of it to be honest. What I was again looking at was the discussion of armies and soldiers.But i think I had better back out of this conversation entirely, because again I do not know enough about it and not enough about your statements here. I have specific things I know about and things I have read and I do not think it is enough to continue on.I do want to say tho going back to Peter's post that I have to disagree with this part too:> >> And, as I've already pointed out, WWII would never have happened > >>if people had been brave in the first place, and stood up for what > >>was right.It sounds as if he is saying that no one stood up against or tried to stand up against the wrong doings going on in the war or even pre-war. And I don't think that is what he means or at least hope not.Taking Germany as an example, there were many Germans who stood against what was going on and many who died for doing so. Or watched their families die for doing so.Nikki , fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:>> hey nikki> i think wot peter was refering to was the many causes of WWII, and how the west through whichever means, helped bring all the hell of WWII, down upon the world> one has to look at the causes of why things occured> and, i've long since learned (hopefully anyways) that there are more then two sides to every story...> > fer our part...US big business walked hand in goosestep with the nazi party...> business is business.,,> heck, even bush's grandpappy Prescott held companies for Thyssen> coca-cola> ibm> > examples are legion....> > and, even better> much of hitler's monstrous plans of ethnic cleansing came from..right here in the good ol USA....> > unfortunately...we often are much to ready to look at the symptoms of something..and leap from there..as opposed to rooting out the causes of something> > > >earthstrm <earthstorm> >Jun 6, 2006 4:47 PM> > > > Re: have you killed today?> >> >Hi Peter> >> >Not picking on you personally here, but you bring up a good > >statement. So to go a bit off page and still stay on the same > >discussion:> >> >> And, as I've already pointed out, WWII would never have happened > >>if people had been brave in the first place, and stood up for what > >>was right. WWII was the result of horrific oppression of the German > >>people - it was a perfect example of creating a problem in order to > >>justify a war, as has happened with every war.> >> >A lot of Lithuanians would not have survived this period with their > >fight against Russia had Lithuania not have had an army which they > >used to help then be brave in the first place and stand up for what > >was right. And alot did not survive even tho they did that.> >> >And then there were other countries too, I know. I just know more of > >the Lithuanian involvement and am already getting in too deep.> >> >WWII is not just about Germany and Hitler. There was a lot of cause > >and effect from this and before this.> >> >And what about the US involvement? They stood up for what was right > >and lent aid and support in this war and no oil was involved at that > >time. So question to everyone, should the US have stayed out of this > >war?> >> >BB> >Nikki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
