Vegan Semantics

[Guest guest]

When I am talking to someone that is thinking about becoming a vegetarian/vegan I encourage them to give up eggs and dairy first. Chickens are the most abused animal around the world and laying hens here are (US) incredibly abused throughout their entire lives. I teach them about how many millions of male chicks are gruesomely disposed of due to their inability to bring money in by laying eggs, and that they can't be raised for meat since that is not how they have been genetically manipulated. I have to explain the difference between a layer and a broiler and the genetic manipulation that goes on so that they will either lay more eggs or grow bigger faster. Dairy cows are also incredibly tortured not being allowed any sort of real life and it supports the continuing veal industry. Videos are the most important tool in our arsenal of educational weapons. My belief, naive perhaps, is that once people are exposed to the reality of the farm factoried animal they will fight for bills that protect them and become vegans. So far it works. We teach them concrete alternatives to eggs and dairy products. Then chicken broilers (hate calling them that). That is because a person will kill and eat far more chickens in this country than they will pigs, cows, etc. So I point out that they can save more lives by starting smaller. Then pigs are next on the list to give up and when they have see the absolute brutality of these poor sentient beings they readily give up eating them. Then the cow flesh. Fish are usually pretty easy when one points out the numbers of shrimp one must kill to satisfy one's hunger as opposed to something else, and then they all are pretty confused about the toxicity of fish anyway and get the point easily. Surprisingly I suppose to a lot of people is that this reverse order somehow works more easily...but you do have to be ready with the substitutes so that they don't feel like they can't do this. But the bugaboo is of course getting people to look and see. They tend to say, "I don't want to know about that stuff, I can't stand seeing animals tortured." I have to bite my tongue very hard. It has got to be the most illogical statement that I have ever heard. That is the worst thing for me to hear. Just trying to get the biggest bang for the tiny steps that people take. And then there are those rewards when one gets someone to watch a video like "Meet Your Meat" and they give up meat, dairy, eggs immediately and never look back. It does happen. I know that I have forgotten something but I have a rotten cold and brains are less than functional.

linda

 

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

 

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

 

-

Susan

I agree that this can be confusing for people who arenot familiar with vegetarianism/veganism. However,the way I see it they should be congratulated for noteating the animals they have chosen to exclude. WhenI started as a "vegetarian" years ago, I went throughstages of eliminating various animals and sometimesdid some backsliding as I found my way toward a newlifestyle; it didn't happen overnight for me. I thinkfish are more intelligent than we give them creditfor; however, if someone told me they only ate fish Iwould be inclined toward encouraging them to continueto not eat beef, pork, lamb, etc. I think it's a morepositive step toward relieving animal suffering (andtoward better health) than the alternative.

[Guest guest]

yes and no

when someone sez " i'm vegetarian, i only eat chicken " , it makes it hard for

someone who is vegetarian...

every bit of misinformation is just one more lil ol hurdle to climb

 

if yer cutting down er wotever, great, more power to ya's..have at it..every

step, even itty bitty baby steps, is still a step

just don't call yerself vegetarian...maybe you are " heading toward

vegetarianism " er something...

otherwise, it just clouds the issue..

ppl have enough problems thinkin we are all insane...

 

 

Susan <oceanfest_2000

Dec 2, 2005 10:57 AM

 

Re: Vegan Semantics

 

I agree that this can be confusing for people who are

not familiar with vegetarianism/veganism. However,

the way I see it they should be congratulated for not

eating the animals they have chosen to exclude. When

I started as a " vegetarian " years ago, I went through

stages of eliminating various animals and sometimes

did some backsliding as I found my way toward a new

lifestyle; it didn't happen overnight for me. I think

fish are more intelligent than we give them credit

for; however, if someone told me they only ate fish I

would be inclined toward encouraging them to continue

to not eat beef, pork, lamb, etc. I think it's a more

positive step toward relieving animal suffering (and

toward better health) than the alternative. Semantics

aside. I personally think what they are trying to

accomplish is more important than what they call

themselves; semantics are important too, but I tend to

think the intention of the person is more important.

Who knows? They may decided to give up fish some day

as well with enough support for their efforts. Susan

 

--- sandi gordon <sandisweeti13132001

wrote:

 

> I get sooo pissed off when I hear someone saying

> they are a vegetarian but eat fish or they will say

> I am a veg. but eat turkey for the holidays,ughugh

> people

>

> Jonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens wrote:

> Semi vegan a few days a week????

>

> peter hurd <swpgh01 wrote:

> Food Fact: The Pros and Cons of Vegan

> Dieting

> By Lori Corbin

>

>

> For pets, the planet or just to peel off a few

> pounds, many are looking to a vegan diet.

> But, unlike vegetarians, a vegan diet is strictly

> plant based. Absolutely no animal products what so

> ever. No meat, eggs, dairy, fish, or fowl of any

> kind. While that may seem limiting, it is a diet

> that's packed with good things. Owner of Nutrifit,

> dietitian Jackie Keller operates a nutritional

> catering business, servicing those with many

> different nutritional needs. She says the diet is

> tough to follow for a novice. Since food is her

> business, Keller incorporates plenty of soy protein,

> legumes, beans, nuts, seeds, and a plethora of

> produce. Contrary to popular belief, vegans can

> get adequate protein in their diet. What they lack

> is vitamin B-12, which you can only get from meat.

> In addition, vegans need to make sure they get

> adequate iron, calcium, riboflavin, zinc and vitamin

> D. No surprise, health experts recommend taking a

> supplement on this type of program. It's also

> helpful to eat certain foods in tandem, like iron

> rich black beans with a food high in vitamin C (like

> red

> bell pepper, oranges, kiwi, etc.) Keller says

> vegetarians and vegans benefit with lower rates of

> cholesterol, hypertension, cancer, obesity and

> reduced risk of kidney problems.

> //

> A recent study at George Washington University

> proved that vegan dieting works well, at least for

> overweight post menopausal women. They lost almost

> twice as much weight as those following a standard

> low cholesterol diet; fourteen pounds versus eight

> pounds. In addition it's important to remember,

> animal free doesn't mean taste free. Keller

> recommends giving your body a break by eating

> semi-vegan a few days a week. For more information

> about vegan dieting: www.nutrifitonline or Nutrifit

> (310) 473-1989

>

> Eyewitness News Team

> Lori Corbin,

>

> RELATED: Lori's BIO

> EMAIL: Contact Lori

Peter H

>

>

>

> Model Search - Could you be the next

> catwalk superstar? Check out the competition now

 

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> Visit your group " " on the web.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I used to love fish - never liked meat, but used to eat, because that's what

people do!. It took me over a year to give up fish. Now I can't stand the

smell of it.

 

Jo

 

-

" Susan " <oceanfest_2000

 

Friday, December 02, 2005 6:57 PM

Re: Vegan Semantics

 

 

> I agree that this can be confusing for people who are

> not familiar with vegetarianism/veganism. However,

> the way I see it they should be congratulated for not

> eating the animals they have chosen to exclude. When

> I started as a " vegetarian " years ago, I went through

> stages of eliminating various animals and sometimes

> did some backsliding as I found my way toward a new

> lifestyle; it didn't happen overnight for me. I think

> fish are more intelligent than we give them credit

> for; however, if someone told me they only ate fish I

> would be inclined toward encouraging them to continue

> to not eat beef, pork, lamb, etc. I think it's a more

> positive step toward relieving animal suffering (and

> toward better health) than the alternative. Semantics

> aside. I personally think what they are trying to

> accomplish is more important than what they call

> themselves; semantics are important too, but I tend to

> think the intention of the person is more important.

> Who knows? They may decided to give up fish some day

> as well with enough support for their efforts. Susan

>

[Guest guest]

Most people give up meat more easily than dairy and eggs. That is why there are lots of vegetarians around.

 

Jo

 

-

linda

Friday, December 02, 2005 7:30 PM

Re: Vegan Semantics

 

When I am talking to someone that is thinking about becoming a vegetarian/vegan I encourage them to give up eggs and dairy first. Chickens are the most abused animal around the world and laying hens here are (US) incredibly abused throughout their entire lives. I teach them about how many millions of male chicks are gruesomely disposed of due to their inability to bring money in by laying eggs, and that they can't be raised for meat since that is not how they have been genetically manipulated. I have to explain the difference between a layer and a broiler and the genetic manipulation that goes on so that they will either lay more eggs or grow bigger faster. Dairy cows are also incredibly tortured not being allowed any sort of real life and it supports the continuing veal industry. Videos are the most important tool in our arsenal of educational weapons. My belief, naive perhaps, is that once people are exposed to the reality of the farm factoried animal they will fight for bills that protect them and become vegans. So far it works. We teach them concrete alternatives to eggs and dairy products. Then chicken broilers (hate calling them that). That is because a person will kill and eat far more chickens in this country than they will pigs, cows, etc. So I point out that they can save more lives by starting smaller. Then pigs are next on the list to give up and when they have see the absolute brutality of these poor sentient beings they readily give up eating them. Then the cow flesh. Fish are usually pretty easy when one points out the numbers of shrimp one must kill to satisfy one's hunger as opposed to something else, and then they all are pretty confused about the toxicity of fish anyway and get the point easily. Surprisingly I suppose to a lot of people is that this reverse order somehow works more easily...but you do have to be ready with the substitutes so that they don't feel like they can't do this. But the bugaboo is of course getting people to look and see. They tend to say, "I don't want to know about that stuff, I can't stand seeing animals tortured." I have to bite my tongue very hard. It has got to be the most illogical statement that I have ever heard. That is the worst thing for me to hear. Just trying to get the biggest bang for the tiny steps that people take. And then there are those rewards when one gets someone to watch a video like "Meet Your Meat" and they give up meat, dairy, eggs immediately and never look back. It does happen. I know that I have forgotten something but I have a rotten cold and brains are less than functional.

linda

 

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

 

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

 

-

Susan

I agree that this can be confusing for people who arenot familiar with vegetarianism/veganism. However,the way I see it they should be congratulated for noteating the animals they have chosen to exclude. WhenI started as a "vegetarian" years ago, I went throughstages of eliminating various animals and sometimesdid some backsliding as I found my way toward a newlifestyle; it didn't happen overnight for me. I thinkfish are more intelligent than we give them creditfor; however, if someone told me they only ate fish Iwould be inclined toward encouraging them to continueto not eat beef, pork, lamb, etc. I think it's a morepositive step toward relieving animal suffering (andtoward better health) than the alternative.

[Guest guest]

I agree Fraggle. I call myself a vegetarian who prefers to eat vegan food.

 

Jo

-

" fraggle " <EBbrewpunx

 

Friday, December 02, 2005 7:38 PM

Re: Vegan Semantics

 

 

> yes and no

> when someone sez " i'm vegetarian, i only eat chicken " , it makes it hard

for someone who is vegetarian...

> every bit of misinformation is just one more lil ol hurdle to climb

>

> if yer cutting down er wotever, great, more power to ya's..have at

it..every step, even itty bitty baby steps, is still a step

> just don't call yerself vegetarian...maybe you are " heading toward

vegetarianism " er something...

> otherwise, it just clouds the issue..

> ppl have enough problems thinkin we are all insane...

>

[Guest guest]

Soooo true I have heard time and time again that I could never give up my cheese products,but they are easy to give up meat.jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Most people give up meat more easily than dairy and eggs. That is why there are lots of vegetarians around. Jo - linda Friday, December 02, 2005 7:30 PM Re: Vegan Semantics When I am talking to someone that is thinking about becoming a vegetarian/vegan I encourage them to give up eggs and dairy first. Chickens are the most abused animal around the world and laying hens here are (US) incredibly abused throughout their entire lives. I teach them about how many millions of male chicks are gruesomely disposed of due to their inability to bring money in by laying eggs, and that they can't be raised for meat since that is not how they have been genetically manipulated. I have to explain the difference between a layer and a broiler and the genetic manipulation that goes on so

that they will either lay more eggs or grow bigger faster. Dairy cows are also incredibly tortured not being allowed any sort of real life and it supports the continuing veal industry. Videos are the most important tool in our arsenal of educational weapons. My belief, naive perhaps, is that once people are exposed to the reality of the farm factoried animal they will fight for bills that protect them and become vegans. So far it works. We teach them concrete alternatives to eggs and dairy products. Then chicken broilers (hate calling them that). That is because a person will kill and eat far more chickens in this country than they will pigs, cows, etc. So I point out that they can save more lives by starting smaller. Then pigs are next on the list to give up and when they have see the absolute brutality of these poor sentient beings they readily give up eating them. Then the cow flesh. Fish are usually pretty easy when one points out the numbers of shrimp one must kill

to satisfy one's hunger as opposed to something else, and then they all are pretty confused about the toxicity of fish anyway and get the point easily. Surprisingly I suppose to a lot of people is that this reverse order somehow works more easily...but you do have to be ready with the substitutes so that they don't feel like they can't do this. But the bugaboo is of course getting people to look and see. They tend to say, "I don't want to know about that stuff, I can't stand seeing animals tortured." I have to bite my tongue very hard. It has got to be the most illogical statement that I have ever heard. That is the worst thing for me to hear. Just trying to get the biggest bang for the tiny steps that people take. And then there are those rewards when one gets someone to watch a video like "Meet Your Meat" and they give up meat, dairy, eggs immediately and never look back. It does happen. I know that I have forgotten something but I have a rotten cold

and brains are less than functional. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - Susan I agree that this can be confusing for people who arenot familiar with vegetarianism/veganism. However,the way I see it they should be congratulated for noteating the animals they have

chosen to exclude. WhenI started as a "vegetarian" years ago, I went throughstages of eliminating various animals and sometimesdid some backsliding as I found my way toward a newlifestyle; it didn't happen overnight for me. I thinkfish are more intelligent than we give them creditfor; however, if someone told me they only ate fish Iwould be inclined toward encouraging them to continueto not eat beef, pork, lamb, etc. I think it's a morepositive step toward relieving animal suffering (andtoward better health) than the alternative.

DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

[Guest guest]

One of the things that changed one of my daughters

from eating beef was when she parked next to a cattle

truck and saw one of the steer's eyes looking through

the grate, white and rolling with fear. She is unable

to eat read meat now. Later, I also talked with her

about how they don't get water, are forced to stand in

the trucks for hours, etc. Sometimes lessons do have

to be learned a bit at a time. One step forward is

always a step in the right direction, not matter how

small. I like your comments. I, too, know people who

cannot bear to actually look at the abuse. But I

figure that is the place they need to be in at the

time. At least they admit that it occurs. Admitting

it is one of those first steps. Not wanting to see it

may be an admission to themselves that it is too

horrifying to bear. I can also understand how they

feel. I went on the PETA website and saw video of

monkeys being used for research. Unfortunately, I did

it at work and it took me some time to stop crying and

get control of myself. At least I was in my own

cubicle and had a big box of tissue--it wasn't the

most pleasant break I've ever had. There have been a

lot of disaster in the last few years and who knows

what personal horrors a person may have? Lessons are

best learned when people are ready to learn them, so I

respect the space people need . . .most of the time.

There have been other times I've been more activistic.

I like the step-by-step process you discuss below and

I think that might be really helpful to some people.

Susan

 

--- linda <lindai81 wrote:

 

> When I am talking to someone that is thinking about

> becoming a vegetarian/vegan I encourage them to give

> up eggs and dairy first. Chickens are the most

> abused animal around the world and laying hens here

> are (US) incredibly abused throughout their entire

> lives. I teach them about how many millions of male

> chicks are gruesomely disposed of due to their

> inability to bring money in by laying eggs, and that

> they can't be raised for meat since that is not how

> they have been genetically manipulated. I have to

> explain the difference between a layer and a broiler

> and the genetic manipulation that goes on so that

> they will either lay more eggs or grow bigger

> faster. Dairy cows are also incredibly tortured not

> being allowed any sort of real life and it supports

> the continuing veal industry. Videos are the most

> important tool in our arsenal of educational

> weapons. My belief, naive perhaps, is that once

> people are exposed to the reality of the farm

> factoried animal they will fight for bills that

> protect them and become vegans. So far it works. We

> teach them concrete alternatives to eggs and dairy

> products. Then chicken broilers (hate calling them

> that). That is because a person will kill and eat

> far more chickens in this country than they will

> pigs, cows, etc. So I point out that they can save

> more lives by starting smaller. Then pigs are next

> on the list to give up and when they have see the

> absolute brutality of these poor sentient beings

> they readily give up eating them. Then the cow

> flesh. Fish are usually pretty easy when one points

> out the numbers of shrimp one must kill to satisfy

> one's hunger as opposed to something else, and then

> they all are pretty confused about the toxicity of

> fish anyway and get the point easily. Surprisingly I

> suppose to a lot of people is that this reverse

> order somehow works more easily...but you do have to

> be ready with the substitutes so that they don't

> feel like they can't do this. But the bugaboo is of

> course getting people to look and see. They tend to

> say, " I don't want to know about that stuff, I can't

> stand seeing animals tortured. " I have to bite my

> tongue very hard. It has got to be the most

> illogical statement that I have ever heard. That is

> the worst thing for me to hear. Just trying to get

> the biggest bang for the tiny steps that people

> take. And then there are those rewards when one gets

> someone to watch a video like " Meet Your Meat " and

> they give up meat, dairy, eggs immediately and never

> look back. It does happen. I know that I have

> forgotten something but I have a rotten cold and

> brains are less than functional.

> linda

>

> " Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is

> very important that you do it. "

> Mohandas Gandhi

>

> linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:

> womyn47

> -

> Susan

> I agree that this can be confusing for people who

> are

> not familiar with vegetarianism/veganism.

> However,

> the way I see it they should be congratulated for

> not

> eating the animals they have chosen to exclude.

> When

> I started as a " vegetarian " years ago, I went

> through

> stages of eliminating various animals and

> sometimes

> did some backsliding as I found my way toward a

> new

> lifestyle; it didn't happen overnight for me. I

> think

> fish are more intelligent than we give them credit

> for; however, if someone told me they only ate

> fish I

> would be inclined toward encouraging them to

> continue

> to not eat beef, pork, lamb, etc. I think it's a

> more

> positive step toward relieving animal suffering

> (and

> toward better health) than the alternative.

 

 

 

 

________

DSL – Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.

[Guest guest]

I guess some of those people think they are vegetarian

.. . .we are insane but sanely insane. Sort of like

being a little vegen, only better. We just have to

keep having the dialog. susan

 

--- fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

 

> yes and no

> when someone sez " i'm vegetarian, i only eat

> chicken " , it makes it hard for someone who is

> vegetarian...

> every bit of misinformation is just one more lil ol

> hurdle to climb

>

> if yer cutting down er wotever, great, more power to

> ya's..have at it..every step, even itty bitty baby

> steps, is still a step

> just don't call yerself vegetarian...maybe you are

> " heading toward vegetarianism " er something...

> otherwise, it just clouds the issue..

> ppl have enough problems thinkin we are all

> insane...

>

>

 

 

 

 

________

DSL – Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.

[Guest guest]

It's funny you mention about the smell . . .I can no

longer walk throught the meat section without the

smell overwhelming me. That's funny, because it never

used to bother me when I was eating it. That's

something new. Susan

 

--- jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

> I used to love fish - never liked meat, but used to

> eat, because that's what

> people do!. It took me over a year to give up fish.

> Now I can't stand the

> smell of it.

>

> Jo

 

 

 

 

________

DSL – Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.

[Guest guest]

That will do the trick! That is precisely what sticks in my mind's eye. I saw the picture of a dairy cow, looking sideways at me and you could feel it. I immediately went totally vegan. The eyes of all of the animals now haunt me pushing me forward to help these incredibly brutalized, helpless an defenseless beings. Who else do they have to defend them except us. My continuing horror is thinking about the animals in the testing labs...the Oregon Primate Center in Portland, Oregon is a horror of a place. I regret that I am not strong enough to go and physically do something about them. Their pictures are planted in my head too and so is my shame and sorrow.

 

For me the people that know about the abuse and continue to participate in it make me wild. LOL That is not an adult responsible way to live ones life. We wouldn't excuse it if they were ignoring someone abusing, beating, starving a child and said they knew it was happening but they won't do anything about it? I knew what you are saying about accepting where they are at, but I can't condone or excuse it and they won't get a pass from me. Animals, children and the elderly are powerless and defenseless. They have only us. Of course I am not without guilt as it took me much too long to realize any of this. How many animals have suffered because of me?

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

 

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

 

-

Susan

 

One of the things that changed one of my daughtersfrom eating beef was when she parked next to a cattletruck and saw one of the steer's eyes looking throughthe grate, white and rolling with fear. She is unableto eat read meat now.I, too, know people who cannot bear to actually look at the abuse. figure that is the place they need to be in at thetime. At least they admit that it occurs. Admittingit is one of those first steps. Not wanting to see itmay be an admission to themselves that it is toohorrifying to bear. I can also understand how theyfeel. I went on the PETA website and saw video ofmonkeys being used for research. Unfortunately, I didit at work and it took me some time to stop crying andget control of myself. At least I was in my owncubicle and had a big box of tissue--it wasn't themost pleasant break I've ever had. There have been alot of disaster in the last few years and who knowswhat personal horrors a person may have? Lessons arebest learned when people are ready to learn them, so Irespect the space people need . . .most of the time.There have been other times I've been more activistic.I like the step-by-step process you discuss below andI think that might be really helpful to some people. Susan

[Guest guest]

I`ve seen enough of those videos, and can`t stomach them any more. But then again, they are probably not meant for me are they? Everyone is different, and has different commitment levels. Some people can go vegan straight away from carnie, others go veggie first, some stay veggie. As you say, its all a step in the right direction.All we can do is keep reminding them why they are doing it and keep encouraging them. The Valley Vegan...............Susan <oceanfest_2000 wrote: One of the things that changed one of my daughtersfrom eating beef was when she parked next to a cattletruck and saw one of the steer's eyes looking throughthe grate, white and rolling with fear. She is unableto eat read meat now. Later, I also talked with herabout how they don't get water, are forced to

stand inthe trucks for hours, etc. Sometimes lessons do haveto be learned a bit at a time. One step forward isalways a step in the right direction, not matter howsmall. I like your comments. I, too, know people whocannot bear to actually look at the abuse. But Ifigure that is the place they need to be in at thetime. At least they admit that it occurs. Admittingit is one of those first steps. Not wanting to see itmay be an admission to themselves that it is toohorrifying to bear. I can also understand how theyfeel. I went on the PETA website and saw video ofmonkeys being used for research. Unfortunately, I didit at work and it took me some time to stop crying andget control of myself. At least I was in my owncubicle and had a big box of tissue--it wasn't themost pleasant break I've ever had. There have been alot of disaster in the last few years and who knowswhat personal horrors a person may have? Lessons

arebest learned when people are ready to learn them, so Irespect the space people need . . .most of the time.There have been other times I've been more activistic.I like the step-by-step process you discuss below andI think that might be really helpful to some people. Susan--- linda wrote:> When I am talking to someone that is thinking about> becoming a vegetarian/vegan I encourage them to give> up eggs and dairy first. Chickens are the most> abused animal around the world and laying hens here> are (US) incredibly abused throughout their entire> lives. I teach them about how many millions of male> chicks are gruesomely disposed of due to their> inability to bring money in by laying eggs, and that> they can't be raised for meat since that is not how> they have been genetically manipulated. I have to> explain the difference between a layer and a

broiler> and the genetic manipulation that goes on so that> they will either lay more eggs or grow bigger> faster. Dairy cows are also incredibly tortured not> being allowed any sort of real life and it supports> the continuing veal industry. Videos are the most> important tool in our arsenal of educational> weapons. My belief, naive perhaps, is that once> people are exposed to the reality of the farm> factoried animal they will fight for bills that> protect them and become vegans. So far it works. We> teach them concrete alternatives to eggs and dairy> products. Then chicken broilers (hate calling them> that). That is because a person will kill and eat> far more chickens in this country than they will> pigs, cows, etc. So I point out that they can save> more lives by starting smaller. Then pigs are next> on the list to give up and when they have see the>

absolute brutality of these poor sentient beings> they readily give up eating them. Then the cow> flesh. Fish are usually pretty easy when one points> out the numbers of shrimp one must kill to satisfy> one's hunger as opposed to something else, and then> they all are pretty confused about the toxicity of> fish anyway and get the point easily. Surprisingly I> suppose to a lot of people is that this reverse> order somehow works more easily...but you do have to> be ready with the substitutes so that they don't> feel like they can't do this. But the bugaboo is of> course getting people to look and see. They tend to> say, "I don't want to know about that stuff, I can't> stand seeing animals tortured." I have to bite my> tongue very hard. It has got to be the most> illogical statement that I have ever heard. That is> the worst thing for me to hear. Just trying to get>

the biggest bang for the tiny steps that people> take. And then there are those rewards when one gets> someone to watch a video like "Meet Your Meat" and> they give up meat, dairy, eggs immediately and never> look back. It does happen. I know that I have> forgotten something but I have a rotten cold and> brains are less than functional.> linda> > "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > I agree that this can be confusing for people who> are> not familiar with vegetarianism/veganism. > However,> the way I see it they should be congratulated for> not> eating the animals they have chosen to exclude. > When> I started as a "vegetarian" years

ago, I went> through> stages of eliminating various animals and> sometimes> did some backsliding as I found my way toward a> new> lifestyle; it didn't happen overnight for me. I> think> fish are more intelligent than we give them credit> for; however, if someone told me they only ate> fish I> would be inclined toward encouraging them to> continue> to not eat beef, pork, lamb, etc. I think it's a> more> positive step toward relieving animal suffering> (and> toward better health) than the alternative. ________ DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.

[Guest guest]

The fish dept. of stores make me want to run and scream out the doorSusan <oceanfest_2000 wrote: It's funny you mention about the smell . . .I can nolonger walk throught the meat section without thesmell overwhelming me. That's funny, because it neverused to bother me when I was eating it. That'ssomething new. Susan--- jo <jo.heartwork wrote:> I used to love fish - never liked meat, but used to> eat, because that's what> people do!. It took me over a year to give up fish.> Now I can't stand the> smell of it.> > Jo ________ DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or

less. dsl.

Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Try Personals

DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

[Guest guest]

I'm the same - I have to avoid the meat sections.

Jo

 

-

" Susan " <oceanfest_2000

 

Friday, December 02, 2005 9:26 PM

Re: Vegan Semantics

 

 

> It's funny you mention about the smell . . .I can no

> longer walk throught the meat section without the

> smell overwhelming me. That's funny, because it never

> used to bother me when I was eating it. That's

> something new. Susan

[Guest guest]

Many people I talk to say " I couldn't give up cheese " .

Here is a neat little book:

The Ultimate Uncheese Cookbook: Delicious Dairy-Free

Cheeses and Classic " Uncheese " Dishes -- by Joanne

Stepaniak

 

In the book I read, the author claimed to have tested

her recipes on people who really like cheese and only

included those that passed. I haven't tried a recipe

from this book yet as I only had borrowed it for a

short time. susan

 

--- sandi gordon <sandisweeti13132001

wrote:

 

> Soooo true I have heard time and time again that I

> could never give up my cheese products,but they are

> easy to give up meat.

>

> jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Most

> people give up meat more easily than dairy and eggs.

> That is why there are lots of vegetarians around.

 

 

 

 

 

Start your day with - Make it your home page!

http://www./r/hs

[Guest guest]

--- linda <lindai81 wrote:

 

I regret that I am not strong enough to go

> and physically do something about them. Their

> pictures are planted in my head too and so is my

> shame and sorrow.

 

Sometimes one person can make a difference and one

doesn't necessarily have to do it physically. By

choosing to be vegan, I am doing something about it.

Also, recently, I wrote the city shelter, the mayor,

and the city council about a situation involving birds

at the shelter and I kept asking for follow up all the

way through to the end (so they couldn't just brush me

off). The end result was a positive one for the

birds. I don't do a lot of activism and one of my

daughters was embarrassed, but I explained to her that

while I understood her position I am still my own

person and needed to do what I thought was right for

the animals. Later, she apologized and agreed that

what I did was necessary. I didn't think she needed

to apologize just for expressing herself! Afterall,

look who her mother is . . .me! I just keeping move

forward. My past mistakes are part of what makes me

who I am today and that's pretty good for an ole'

dame. Susan

>

> For me the people that know about the abuse and

> continue to participate in it make me wild. LOL That

> is not an adult responsible way to live ones life.

> We wouldn't excuse it if they were ignoring someone

> abusing, beating, starving a child and said they

> knew it was happening but they won't do anything

> about it? I knew what you are saying about accepting

> where they are at, but I can't condone or excuse it

> and they won't get a pass from me. Animals, children

> and the elderly are powerless and defenseless. They

> have only us. Of course I am not without guilt as it

> took me much too long to realize any of this. How

> many animals have suffered because of me?

> linda

> " Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is

> very important that you do it. "

> Mohandas Gandhi

>

> linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:

> womyn47

> -

> Susan

>

> One of the things that changed one of my daughters

> from eating beef was when she parked next to a

> cattle

> truck and saw one of the steer's eyes looking

> through

> the grate, white and rolling with fear. She is

> unable

> to eat read meat now.I, too, know people who

> cannot bear to actually look at the abuse. figure

> that is the place they need to be in at the

> time. At least they admit that it occurs.

> Admitting

> it is one of those first steps. Not wanting to see

> it

> may be an admission to themselves that it is too

> horrifying to bear. I can also understand how

> they

> feel. I went on the PETA website and saw video of

> monkeys being used for research. Unfortunately, I

> did

> it at work and it took me some time to stop crying

> and

> get control of myself. At least I was in my own

> cubicle and had a big box of tissue--it wasn't the

> most pleasant break I've ever had. There have been

> a

> lot of disaster in the last few years and who

> knows

> what personal horrors a person may have? Lessons

> are

> best learned when people are ready to learn them,

> so I

> respect the space people need . . .most of the

> time.

> There have been other times I've been more

> activistic.

> I like the step-by-step process you discuss below

> and

> I think that might be really helpful to some

> people.

> Susan

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

Start your day with - Make it your home page!

http://www./r/hs

[Guest guest]

My being vegan doesn't do a thing for the animals in the testing laboratories. I never ate monkeys, or the many other primates used, or rats, cat, dog and the most people don't. Yes, my children find me to be an embarrassment at times, but I finally realized that they are proud and actually admire my being a thorn in some people's sides. I don't preach to them at all since I figure that they wouldn't get it if they didn't get it to begin with after all of these years with me.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

 

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

 

-

Susan

Friday, December 02, 2005 3:05 PM

Re: Vegan Semantics

--- linda <lindai81 wrote:I regret that I am not strong enough to go> and physically do something about them. Their> pictures are planted in my head too and so is my> shame and sorrow.Sometimes one person can make a difference and onedoesn't necessarily have to do it physically. Bychoosing to be vegan, I am doing something about it. Also, recently, I wrote the city shelter, the mayor,and the city council about a situation involving birdsat the shelter and I kept asking for follow up all theway through to the end (so they couldn't just brush meoff). The end result was a positive one for thebirds. I don't do a lot of activism and one of mydaughters was embarrassed, but I explained to her thatwhile I understood her position I am still my ownperson and needed to do what I thought was right forthe animals. Later, she apologized and agreed thatwhat I did was necessary. I didn't think she neededto apologize just for expressing herself! Afterall,look who her mother is . . .me! I just keeping moveforward. My past mistakes are part of what makes mewho I am today and that's pretty good for an ole'dame. Susan> > For me the people that know about the abuse and> continue to participate in it make me wild. LOL That> is not an adult responsible way to live ones life.> We wouldn't excuse it if they were ignoring someone> abusing, beating, starving a child and said they> knew it was happening but they won't do anything> about it? I knew what you are saying about accepting> where they are at, but I can't condone or excuse it> and they won't get a pass from me. Animals, children> and the elderly are powerless and defenseless. They> have only us. Of course I am not without guilt as it> took me much too long to realize any of this. How> many animals have suffered because of me?> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > One of the things that changed one of my daughters> from eating beef was when she parked next to a> cattle> truck and saw one of the steer's eyes looking> through> the grate, white and rolling with fear. She is> unable> to eat read meat now.I, too, know people who> cannot bear to actually look at the abuse. figure> that is the place they need to be in at the> time. At least they admit that it occurs. > Admitting> it is one of those first steps. Not wanting to see> it> may be an admission to themselves that it is too> horrifying to bear. I can also understand how> they> feel. I went on the PETA website and saw video of> monkeys being used for research. Unfortunately, I> did> it at work and it took me some time to stop crying> and> get control of myself. At least I was in my own> cubicle and had a big box of tissue--it wasn't the> most pleasant break I've ever had. There have been> a> lot of disaster in the last few years and who> knows> what personal horrors a person may have? Lessons> are> best learned when people are ready to learn them,> so I> respect the space people need . . .most of the> time.> There have been other times I've been more> activistic.> I like the step-by-step process you discuss below> and> I think that might be really helpful to some> people. > Susan> > Start your day with - Make it your home page! http://www./r/hs

[Guest guest]

I made something for my family (who are carnis) that had nutritional yeast in it. They couldn't stand it. I dunno if it was because they smelled the nutritional yeast before I put it in or not. I got it from the bulk bin and I do have to say it smelled rather nasty. Is is supposed to smell that way? Do different ones smell differently?Susan <oceanfest_2000 wrote: Many people I talk to say "I couldn't give up cheese".Here is a neat little book:The Ultimate Uncheese Cookbook: Delicious Dairy-FreeCheeses and Classic "Uncheese" Dishes -- by JoanneStepaniakIn the book I read, the author claimed to have testedher recipes on people who really like cheese and onlyincluded those that passed. I haven't tried a recipefrom this book yet as I only had borrowed it

for ashort time. susan--- sandi gordon <sandisweeti13132001wrote:> Soooo true I have heard time and time again that I> could never give up my cheese products,but they are> easy to give up meat.> > jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Most> people give up meat more easily than dairy and eggs.> That is why there are lots of vegetarians around. Start your day with - Make it your home page! http://www./r/hs

DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

[Guest guest]

The thing to remember is that carnivores don't feel they need our approval.

 

Jo

 

-

linda

Friday, December 02, 2005 9:40 PM

Re: Vegan Semantics

 

That will do the trick! That is precisely what sticks in my mind's eye. I saw the picture of a dairy cow, looking sideways at me and you could feel it. I immediately went totally vegan. The eyes of all of the animals now haunt me pushing me forward to help these incredibly brutalized, helpless an defenseless beings. Who else do they have to defend them except us. My continuing horror is thinking about the animals in the testing labs...the Oregon Primate Center in Portland, Oregon is a horror of a place. I regret that I am not strong enough to go and physically do something about them. Their pictures are planted in my head too and so is my shame and sorrow.

 

For me the people that know about the abuse and continue to participate in it make me wild. LOL That is not an adult responsible way to live ones life. We wouldn't excuse it if they were ignoring someone abusing, beating, starving a child and said they knew it was happening but they won't do anything about it? I knew what you are saying about accepting where they are at, but I can't condone or excuse it and they won't get a pass from me. Animals, children and the elderly are powerless and defenseless. They have only us. Of course I am not without guilt as it took me much too long to realize any of this. How many animals have suffered because of me?

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

 

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

 

-

Susan

 

One of the things that changed one of my daughtersfrom eating beef was when she parked next to a cattletruck and saw one of the steer's eyes looking throughthe grate, white and rolling with fear. She is unableto eat read meat now.I, too, know people who cannot bear to actually look at the abuse. figure that is the place they need to be in at thetime. At least they admit that it occurs. Admittingit is one of those first steps. Not wanting to see itmay be an admission to themselves that it is toohorrifying to bear. I can also understand how theyfeel. I went on the PETA website and saw video ofmonkeys being used for research. Unfortunately, I didit at work and it took me some time to stop crying andget control of myself. At least I was in my owncubicle and had a big box of tissue--it wasn't themost pleasant break I've ever had. There have been alot of disaster in the last few years and who knowswhat personal horrors a person may have? Lessons arebest learned when people are ready to learn them, so Irespect the space people need . . .most of the time.There have been other times I've been more activistic.I like the step-by-step process you discuss below andI think that might be really helpful to some people. Susan

[Guest guest]

It does have a very strong smell - it is meant to be that way.

 

Jo

 

-

Jonnie Hellens

Friday, December 02, 2005 11:15 PM

Re: Vegan Semantics

 

I made something for my family (who are carnis) that had nutritional yeast in it. They couldn't stand it. I dunno if it was because they smelled the nutritional yeast before I put it in or not. I got it from the bulk bin and I do have to say it smelled rather nasty. Is is supposed to smell that way? Do different ones smell differently?Susan <oceanfest_2000 wrote: Many people I talk to say "I couldn't give up cheese".Here is a neat little book:The Ultimate Uncheese Cookbook: Delicious Dairy-FreeCheeses and Classic "Uncheese" Dishes -- by JoanneStepaniakIn the book I read, the author claimed to have testedher recipes on people who really like cheese and onlyincluded those that passed. I haven't tried a recipefrom this book yet as I only had borrowed it for ashort time. susan--- sandi gordon <sandisweeti13132001wrote:> Soooo true I have heard time and time again that I> could never give up my cheese products,but they are> easy to give up meat.> > jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Most> people give up meat more easily than dairy and eggs.> That is why there are lots of vegetarians around. Start your day with - Make it your home page! http://www./r/hs

 

 

DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

[Guest guest]

I don't use nutritional yeast enough to answer this;

however, I thought it had to be refrigerated? Did

your family know you were using it or did you just

sneak it in? :-)

 

--- Jonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens wrote:

 

> I made something for my family (who are carnis) that

> had nutritional yeast in it. They couldn't stand

> it. I dunno if it was because they smelled the

> nutritional yeast before I put it in or not. I got

> it from the bulk bin and I do have to say it smelled

> rather nasty. Is is supposed to smell that way? Do

> different ones smell differently?

>

> Susan <oceanfest_2000 wrote: Many people

> I talk to say " I couldn't give up cheese " .

> Here is a neat little book:

> The Ultimate Uncheese Cookbook: Delicious Dairy-Free

> Cheeses and Classic " Uncheese " Dishes -- by Joanne

> Stepaniak

>

> In the book I read, the author claimed to have

> tested

> her recipes on people who really like cheese and

> only

> included those that passed. I haven't tried a

> recipe

> from this book yet as I only had borrowed it for a

> short time. susan

>

> --- sandi gordon <sandisweeti13132001

> wrote:

>

> > Soooo true I have heard time and time again that I

> > could never give up my cheese products,but they

> are

> > easy to give up meat.

> >

> > jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Most

> > people give up meat more easily than dairy and

> eggs.

> > That is why there are lots of vegetarians around.

>

>

>

>

>

> Start your day with - Make it your home page!

>

> http://www./r/hs

>

>

> To send an email to

> -

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.

 

Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for life spill over into that area too? Not really many really young people in their late teens and twenties do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they would be more likely to do it as a statement about life and its meaning. And how would the military deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a thought.

 

I was thinking when I read your post that it sounded like something I have written about my reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to buying only organic...not for my health, but for the health of the planet and the generations to come. It seems like this just might be a disease as it seems to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too. Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the spiders up and take them outside out of respect for me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather kill the spider as they both have a fear of them.

 

I had a friend who said his grandmother used to say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she would come back as spider food!

linda

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

 

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

 

-

Susan

Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM

Re: Vegan Semantics

I think being vegan makes a statement about respectinglife . . .all life. I am setting an example for mychildren and grandchildren, whether or not they choosethis lifestyle. They will know that there are peoplein the world who care what happens to other beings. Ican see small changes others around me make. We walkthrough the world with our being and that has animpact even though we may not know it or see it. Theway we choose to be matters. There is a movie thatkind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you get achance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). It'sabout how every action we take or don't take has animpact--some we may not even know about. People atwork ask me why I'm vegan and I have an opportunity tosay why. My being vegan means I'm not contributing tothe pain and suffering. I'm not financially supportingbusinesses who do. I can't change the world and I'mnot really trying to, but I can change my part in itby the actions I take and hopefully someone will seeme pick up an earthworm and return it to the soil andthink hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not tokill spiders in my house and two of my daughters alsocatch and release them. That means one of mygrandaughters is seeing her mom catch and release theminstead of crushing them. She's only five but isalready learning something about the importance oflife. What did I gain by stopping my allergy shots? I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had anopportunity to discuss ethics with my physician. Aperson can become as active as they want; but smallthings do matter on the planet even when they seemlike they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a smallthing, it's a big thing that has had a domino effecton my life and impacts more and more of my decisionsevery day. When I saw that video clip of lab animals,I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I knowsome of them didn't later go home and have a look? How do I know someone in the chain isn't going to domore than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible for mybeing and I take a stand when I can--being vegan to meis also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed it'spayback for when I was raising them! (just kidding)

[Guest guest]

What kind of nutrional yeast?

I use Engevita nutritional yeast flakes. They are yellow flakes which have a

lot of vitamins

in. They don't have ro be refrigerated, in fact they should be kept in dry

conditions, but

the container says do not heat to 100 degrees. We sprinkle them on our food when

its on

the plate. It smells like cheese. But do you mean the flakes or stuff like

marmite or natex.

They smell cheesy too.

 

, Susan <oceanfest_2000> wrote:

>

> I don't use nutritional yeast enough to answer this;

> however, I thought it had to be refrigerated? Did

> your family know you were using it or did you just

> sneak it in? :-)

>

> --- Jonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens> wrote:

>

> > I made something for my family (who are carnis) that

> > had nutritional yeast in it. They couldn't stand

> > it. I dunno if it was because they smelled the

> > nutritional yeast before I put it in or not. I got

> > it from the bulk bin and I do have to say it smelled

> > rather nasty. Is is supposed to smell that way? Do

> > different ones smell differently?

> >

> > Susan <oceanfest_2000> wrote: Many people

> > I talk to say " I couldn't give up cheese " .

> > Here is a neat little book:

> > The Ultimate Uncheese Cookbook: Delicious Dairy-Free

> > Cheeses and Classic " Uncheese " Dishes -- by Joanne

> > Stepaniak

> >

> > In the book I read, the author claimed to have

> > tested

> > her recipes on people who really like cheese and

> > only

> > included those that passed. I haven't tried a

> > recipe

> > from this book yet as I only had borrowed it for a

> > short time. susan

> >

> > --- sandi gordon <sandisweeti13132001>

> > wrote:

> >

> > > Soooo true I have heard time and time again that I

> > > could never give up my cheese products,but they

> > are

> > > easy to give up meat.

> > >

> > > jo <jo.heartwork@g...> wrote: Most

> > > people give up meat more easily than dairy and

> > eggs.

> > > That is why there are lots of vegetarians around.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Start your day with - Make it your home page!

> >

> > http://www./r/hs

> >

> >

> > To send an email to

> > -

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Letter writing your legistlators is a great way to

make your voter opinions known. Address the issues

toward people's political or financial pockets to get

the most bang for your efforts! Susan

 

--- herbvalerian <herbvalerian wrote:

 

> It may do a lot more than you think. Most people

> find factory farming and vivisection

> offensive but they don't know it goes on or where it

> goes on. By telling people about

> vivisection and factory farming and which companies

> use factory farming and vivisection,

> you will be spreading the word about what goes on

> and putting pressure on the

> companies that profit from vivisection and factory

> farming.

>

> , " linda "

> <lindai81@c...> wrote:

> >

> > My being vegan doesn't do a thing for the animals

> in the testing laboratories. I never ate

> monkeys, or the many other primates used, or rats,

> cat, dog and the most people don't.

> Yes, my children find me to be an embarrassment at

> times, but I finally realized that they

> are proud and actually admire my being a thorn in

> some people's sides. I don't preach to

> them at all since I figure that they wouldn't get it

> if they didn't get it to begin with after all

> of these years with me.

> > linda

> > " Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is

> very important that you do it. "

> > Mohandas Gandhi

> >

> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:

> womyn47

> > -

> > Susan

> >

> > Friday, December 02, 2005 3:05 PM

> > Re: Vegan Semantics

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > --- linda <lindai81@c...> wrote:

> >

> > I regret that I am not strong enough to go

> > > and physically do something about them. Their

> > > pictures are planted in my head too and so is

> my

> > > shame and sorrow.

> >

> > Sometimes one person can make a difference and

> one

> > doesn't necessarily have to do it physically.

> By

> > choosing to be vegan, I am doing something about

> it.

> > Also, recently, I wrote the city shelter, the

> mayor,

> > and the city council about a situation involving

> birds

> > at the shelter and I kept asking for follow up

> all the

> > way through to the end (so they couldn't just

> brush me

> > off). The end result was a positive one for the

> > birds. I don't do a lot of activism and one of

> my

> > daughters was embarrassed, but I explained to

> her that

> > while I understood her position I am still my

> own

> > person and needed to do what I thought was right

> for

> > the animals. Later, she apologized and agreed

> that

> > what I did was necessary. I didn't think she

> needed

> > to apologize just for expressing herself!

> Afterall,

> > look who her mother is . . .me! I just keeping

> move

> > forward. My past mistakes are part of what

> makes me

> > who I am today and that's pretty good for an

> ole'

> > dame. Susan

> > >

> > > For me the people that know about the abuse

> and

> > > continue to participate in it make me wild.

> LOL That

> > > is not an adult responsible way to live ones

> life.

> > > We wouldn't excuse it if they were ignoring

> someone

> > > abusing, beating, starving a child and said

> they

> > > knew it was happening but they won't do

> anything

> > > about it? I knew what you are saying about

> accepting

> > > where they are at, but I can't condone or

> excuse it

> > > and they won't get a pass from me. Animals,

> children

> > > and the elderly are powerless and defenseless.

> They

> > > have only us. Of course I am not without guilt

> as it

> > > took me much too long to realize any of this.

> How

> > > many animals have suffered because of me?

> > > linda

> > > " Whatever you do will be insignificant and it

> is

> > > very important that you do it. "

> > > Mohandas Gandhi

> > >

> > > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:

> > > womyn47

> > > -

> > > Susan

> > >

> > > One of the things that changed one of my

> daughters

> > > from eating beef was when she parked next to

> a

> > > cattle

> > > truck and saw one of the steer's eyes

> looking

> > > through

> > > the grate, white and rolling with fear. She

> is

> > > unable

> > > to eat read meat now.I, too, know people who

> > > cannot bear to actually look at the abuse.

> figure

> > > that is the place they need to be in at the

> > > time. At least they admit that it occurs.

> > > Admitting

> > > it is one of those first steps. Not wanting

> to see

> > > it

> > > may be an admission to themselves that it is

> too

> > > horrifying to bear. I can also understand

> how

> > > they

> > > feel. I went on the PETA website and saw

> video of

> > > monkeys being used for research.

> Unfortunately, I

> > > did

> > > it at work and it took me some time to stop

> crying

> > > and

> > > get control of myself. At least I was in my

> own

> > > cubicle and had a big box of tissue--it

> wasn't the

> > > most pleasant break I've ever had. There

> have been

> > > a

> > > lot of disaster in the last few years and

> who

> > > knows

> > > what personal horrors a person may have?

> Lessons

> > > are

> > > best learned when people are ready to learn

> them,

> > > so I

> > > respect the space people need . . .most of

> the

> > > time.

> > > There have been other times I've been more

> > > activistic.

> > > I like the step-by-step process you discuss

> below

> > > and

> > > I think that might be really helpful to some

> > > people.

> > > Susan

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Start your day with - Make it your home

> page!

> > http://www./r/hs

> >

> >

> > To send an email to

> -

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

----------

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

Start your day with - Make it your home page!

http://www./r/hs

[Guest guest]

Well, I will have to think on this and the connection between the two. With the vivisection I have found people say "Well, it is used to find cures for humans who are infinitely more important than animals." Some will get a bit snotty and say that I care more for animals than humans and put animals above human welfare.

 

Now if we are just talking about animals used to test products on then I would tend to agree with what you have pointed out. Although after I think about it, in a while (lol) I may agree with you totally. Which is why I try to get people to pay attention to the labels and see if it says "no animal testing." My anger is directed to places like the Oregon Primate Center. In college in a class on experimental psychology our professor told us of a research project that he was involved in while in graduate school. They had a large primate, a gorilla, that they were teaching sign language to. I don't know what time period this was, probably 1960's. At the end of the "experiment" they killed the gorilla so they could study his brain to see what changes had occurred. Well, actually, the entire class was stunned and you could tell the professor was askance at having told this story. It was an eye opener as to what one might become involved in by going into experimental psychology.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

 

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

 

-

herbvalerian

It may do a lot more than you think. Most people find factory farming and vivisection offensive but they don't know it goes on or where it goes on. By telling people about vivisection and factory farming and which companies use factory farming and vivisection, you will be spreading the word about what goes on and putting pressure on the companies that profit from vivisection and factory farming. , "linda" <lindai81@c...> wrote:>> My being vegan doesn't do a thing for the animals in the testing laboratories. I never ate monkeys, or the many other primates used, or rats, cat, dog and the most people don't. Yes, my children find me to be an embarrassment at times, but I finally realized that they are proud and actually admire my being a thorn in some people's sides. I don't preach to them at all since I figure that they wouldn't get it if they didn't get it to begin with after all of these years with me.

[Guest guest]

I does smell stongly, dont use it myself. Is it the same as brewers yeast?, no doubt Frag will know..... The Valley Vegan...............Jonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens wrote: I made something for my family (who are carnis) that had nutritional yeast in it. They couldn't stand it. I dunno if it was because they smelled the nutritional yeast before I put it in or not. I got it from the bulk bin and I do have to say it smelled rather nasty. Is is supposed to smell that way? Do different ones smell differently?Susan <oceanfest_2000 wrote: Many people I talk to say "I couldn't give up cheese".Here is a neat

little book:The Ultimate Uncheese Cookbook: Delicious Dairy-FreeCheeses and Classic "Uncheese" Dishes -- by JoanneStepaniakIn the book I read, the author claimed to have testedher recipes on people who really like cheese and onlyincluded those that passed. I haven't tried a recipefrom this book yet as I only had borrowed it for ashort time. susan--- sandi gordon <sandisweeti13132001wrote:> Soooo true I have heard time and time again that I> could never give up my cheese products,but they are> easy to give up meat.> > jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Most> people give up meat more easily than dairy and eggs.> That is why there are lots of vegetarians around. Start your

day with - Make it your home page! http://www./r/hs DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less Peter H

 

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