difference between prayer and magic

[Guest guest]

ah...miscommunication and misconstueing wot someone has said/meant....

wars have started for less

 

" Just as nightfall does not come at once, neither

does oppression. In both instances there is a twilight. And it is in such

twilight

that we all must be aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become

unwilling victims of the darkness. "

William O. Douglas

[Guest guest]

ummm

i did......

sure..ignore my e-mails...

 

 

earthstrm <earthstorm

Nov 11, 2005 9:55 AM

 

Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

LOL - Now why didn't any of us think of looking it up from the get

go?! Thx Jonnie!

 

Yes, these are better definitions. But much like any religion or

belief, it is up to the individuals interpretations of what

magic/magick means to them.

 

Thank you though, this definately makes it easier!

 

Nikki

 

, Jonnie Hellens

<jonnie_hellens> wrote:

>

> mag·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mjk)

> n.

>

> The art that purports to control or forecast natural events,

effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

>

> The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt

to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.

> The charms, spells, and rituals so used.

>

> The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment.

> A mysterious quality of enchantment: " For me the names of those

men breathed the magic of the past " (Max Beerbohm).

>

> adj.

>

> Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural: " stubborn unlaid

ghost/That breaks his magic chains at curfew time " (John Milton).

> Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or

baffling effects.

> prayer1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prâr)

> n.

>

>

> A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of

worship.

> The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or

another object of worship.

>

> An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of

worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving:

One evening a week, the family would join together in prayer.

> A specially worded form used to address God, a god, or another

object of worship.

> prayers A religious observance in which praying predominates:

morning prayers.

>

> A fervent request: Her prayer for rain was granted at last.

> The thing requested: His safe arrival was their only prayer.

>

> The slightest chance or hope: In a storm the mountain climbers

won't have a prayer.

> Law.

> The request of a complainant, as stated in a complaint or in

equity, that the court grant the aid or relief solicited.

> The section of the complaint or bill that contains this

request.

>

> http://dictionary.reference.com/

>

> Would you say these are accurate definitions? If so, it seems to

me that one definition a person makes a petition for something,

whereas the other in one definition a person tries to control or

make something happen themselves?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Jonnie

 

In this neck of the woods most people use the spelling with a k - magick - to distinguish it from other meanings.

 

BBJo

 

-

Jonnie Hellens

Friday, November 11, 2005 5:09 PM

Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

mag·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mjk)n.

 

The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

 

The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature. The charms, spells, and rituals so used.

The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment. A mysterious quality of enchantment: “For me the names of those men breathed the magic of the past” (Max Beerbohm).

adj.

 

Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural: “stubborn unlaid ghost/That breaks his magic chains at curfew time” (John Milton). Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or baffling effects.

prayer1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prâr)n.

 

 

 

A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship. The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.

An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving: One evening a week, the family would join together in prayer. A specially worded form used to address God, a god, or another object of worship. prayers A religious observance in which praying predominates: morning prayers.

 

A fervent request: Her prayer for rain was granted at last. The thing requested: His safe arrival was their only prayer.

The slightest chance or hope: In a storm the mountain climbers won't have a prayer. Law.

The request of a complainant, as stated in a complaint or in equity, that the court grant the aid or relief solicited. The section of the complaint or bill that contains this request.

http://dictionary.reference.com/

 

Would you say these are accurate definitions? If so, it seems to me that one definition a person makes a petition for something, whereas the other in one definition a person tries to control or make something happen themselves?Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi AnoukI would first of all like to say that I am trying to keep calm here, but Iam finding your attitude to be very offensive.> prayer is an internal dialogue,> a meditation, a spiritual journey> an individual sacred space,> it can be emotinal to tears, dramatic,> a conversation with something, someone beyond.> a state of nirvana, rejoice, beyond any earthly orgasmic experience.> a reunion with a long lost father, a completion, a source of hope,> inspiration.> an intensely personal experience. A bond with the womb, Unification> with the universe, an excstacy indescribable beyond words in a> dictionary.> a very very sacred truth.That is exactly what magic can be. In its most basic definition, magic is"changing consciousness at will".> try,> telling for example, a Nun, who practises prayer five or six times a> day and has dedicated her entire life to this belief system.> that all she is doing is magic! how insulting would that be.How dare you suggest that the practice of magic is somehow less than prayingpurely because it does not follow a Christian role-model. To all intents andpurposes it is exactly the same thing - people do dedicate their lives todoing good through magic, and through other means. This is not the preserveof Christians.> magic is trying to create an ilusion or reality out of things that> would otherwise be illogical. a la david copperfield.I really wish that if you don't know about something, you would ask peoplewho do, rather than make bold assumptions which denigrate other people'sbelief systems. David Copperfield is an ILLUSIONIST. He is not a witch, andhe has never claimed to be one. What David Copperfield does is a stage actfor entertainment - he uses slight of hand to amuse people.Witches do notpractice for the entertainment of others, but create change throughwill-power, or through communion with spirits, or in any of thousands ofdifferent ways - but NEVER with the aim of showing off to an audience withtrickery.> I agree with you that both cannot be scientifically proven.> however trying to equate the both of them would be disrespectful to> the other (the nun).I am really upset by your somewhat fundamentalist attitude. You quitebluntly state that my spiritual path is not as worthy af respect as yours.It is an incredibly offensive attitude to take, and clearly comes from anignorance of other beliefs - I will be very happy to answer questions aboutmy beliefs and practices, but I will not accept this patronising andcondescending attitude from someone who clearly hasn't got a clue.Peter

 

 

FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

[Guest guest]

Oh, uh, sorry.

 

I was confused by the random excess of Peter's emails. An even worse

effect than rolling a shiny thing across the floor.

 

Nikki

 

, fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

>

> ummm

> i did......

> sure..ignore my e-mails...

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk

 

> I am always impressed and respect many magicians, I once saw a

> magician on 42nd st. Everyone left with a smile on their face and

> where deaply touched. David Blaine, I think was his name, and I have

> no idea how he did what he did, I honestly might be persuaded to

> believe that magic is real.

 

Magic *is* real - David Blain is a very clever trickster (he states that

himself). He does not practice magic, but slight of hand and clever

psychological tricks.

 

> I dont believe that he is a Witch either. I understood the origianal

> statement that fraggle made to be offensive to many people. He equated

> doing magic tricks to an act which to some people is very spiritual.

> that is why i said a nun would be offended. I don't understand why

> the two are similar.

 

No he didn't. He equated magic with prayer - he never said anything about

illusionists or " magic tricks " .

 

> I got a magic kit for my birthday, when I was a kid, but It was not

> for religious reasons it was just a toy to me.

 

You're still confusing magic and trickery. Magic is about changing things

through will power. Trickery is about entertaining people - the two are

about as far apart as it is possible to get.

 

> I never said anything negative about Pagans, are you a witch, warlock

> too? I did not know this. With my school work, I sometimes skip

> messages because I can't read them all. you guys write too much!

 

I am Pagan. I also practice magic, and would be considered a witch.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the term " witch " (I'm too much of a

historian), but within Paganism, I would be termed as such.

 

> I do not consider myself catholic, my children have never been to a

> catholic church and the oldest one is seven.

> My background and family members are catholic. I also know that they

> would feel offended if someone equated what they do with illusions

> of david copperfield.

> I am sorry if that offends anybody, It was not intentional.

 

Anouk, it is only you who is equating the illusions of David Copperfield

with a spiritual practice - you are equating them to the practice of magic,

which is very offensive to those of us who practice magic. No-one has

associated this form of entertainment with prayer.

 

> I do have a clue about that part of my life, but not about the Magic

> that is so important to witches. I have never honestly seen a witch

> perform magic. Just Bewitched on TV, which by the way I really liked,

> but is no way similar to reality.

 

Very true. Witches tend not to stand in the middle of the street performing

magic - it sort of takes away some of the ability to concentrate, which is a

significant part of practicing magic, so it's not surprising that you've not

seen it!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

i'll think about accepting the sorry

 

and kewl..when peter comes to visit the colonies i can distract you easily and

have him all to myself

muahahahahhahahaa

 

 

earthstrm <earthstorm

Nov 11, 2005 10:11 AM

 

Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

Oh, uh, sorry.

 

I was confused by the random excess of Peter's emails. An even worse

effect than rolling a shiny thing across the floor.

 

Nikki

 

, fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

>

> ummm

> i did......

> sure..ignore my e-mails...

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

> i'll think about accepting the sorry

>

 

Listen pal, not only will you accept it, but you will enjoy doing so

as well!

 

 

> and kewl..when peter comes to visit the colonies i can distract

you easily and have him all to myself

> muahahahahhahahaa

 

Nope, Peter has already " shined " me too much lately. I am becoming

immune at this point.

 

I was a little worried about that actually. That you would not let

him go before he got to me. But I'll just send my brother over to

your house to extract Peter for me.

 

He can just set up a box in the backyard propped up by a stick tied

to a string. in the box he wil put lotsa fresh fruit and imported

beers. Of course a bottle of apple juice in front so that Peter

himself does not go into the box for the fruit.

 

Actually, forget the apple juice. I wouldn't mind kidnapping ya

both! I mean, uh, having you both for a visit. Yeah, that's what I

meant.

 

Nikki

[Guest guest]

so, wot term would you use for wot a bruja does?

 

 

Anouk Sickler <zurumato

Nov 11, 2005 8:24 AM

 

Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

 

I don't think that the word magic, translates well as Witchcraft, in

spanish.

which is the language that I have in my head, being my first.

 

 

 

" Just as nightfall does not come at once, neither

does oppression. In both instances there is a twilight. And it is in such

twilight

that we all must be aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become

unwilling victims of the darkness. "

William O. Douglas

[Guest guest]

just as long as you don't plan on takin me to chicago....

 

why does everyone think i drink only imported beer still????

there are a billion great beers made here in the colonies....

granted, i do drink a ton of belgians..but...

cheers

fraggle

 

 

earthstrm <earthstorm

Nov 11, 2005 10:48 AM

 

Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

 

> i'll think about accepting the sorry

>

 

Listen pal, not only will you accept it, but you will enjoy doing so

as well!

 

 

> and kewl..when peter comes to visit the colonies i can distract

you easily and have him all to myself

> muahahahahhahahaa

 

Nope, Peter has already " shined " me too much lately. I am becoming

immune at this point.

 

I was a little worried about that actually. That you would not let

him go before he got to me. But I'll just send my brother over to

your house to extract Peter for me.

 

He can just set up a box in the backyard propped up by a stick tied

to a string. in the box he wil put lotsa fresh fruit and imported

beers. Of course a bottle of apple juice in front so that Peter

himself does not go into the box for the fruit.

 

Actually, forget the apple juice. I wouldn't mind kidnapping ya

both! I mean, uh, having you both for a visit. Yeah, that's what I

meant.

 

Nikki

 

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

> just as long as you don't plan on takin me to chicago....

>

 

Of course not, don't be silly!

Oak Lawn

 

> why does everyone think i drink only imported beer still????

> there are a billion great beers made here in the colonies....

> granted, i do drink a ton of belgians..but...

 

 

I never said only, I just said that it was what will be put in there.

 

Nikki

[Guest guest]

ok...i'll bite

wot sorta imported beer ya gonna bait it with.....

i mean, i'd hate fer ya to go thru all that trouble and have me ignore it

 

 

earthstrm <earthstorm

Nov 11, 2005 11:11 AM

 

Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

 

 

> just as long as you don't plan on takin me to chicago....

>

 

Of course not, don't be silly!

Oak Lawn

 

> why does everyone think i drink only imported beer still????

> there are a billion great beers made here in the colonies....

> granted, i do drink a ton of belgians..but...

 

 

I never said only, I just said that it was what will be put in there.

 

Nikki

 

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Nikki

 

If the apple juice is for Peter it's a no-no - he's allergic to apples!

 

Jo

-

" earthstrm " <earthstorm

 

Friday, November 11, 2005 6:48 PM

Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

 

>

> > i'll think about accepting the sorry

> >

>

> Listen pal, not only will you accept it, but you will enjoy doing so

> as well!

>

>

>

> > and kewl..when peter comes to visit the colonies i can distract

> you easily and have him all to myself

> > muahahahahhahahaa

>

> Nope, Peter has already " shined " me too much lately. I am becoming

> immune at this point.

>

> I was a little worried about that actually. That you would not let

> him go before he got to me. But I'll just send my brother over to

> your house to extract Peter for me.

>

> He can just set up a box in the backyard propped up by a stick tied

> to a string. in the box he wil put lotsa fresh fruit and imported

> beers. Of course a bottle of apple juice in front so that Peter

> himself does not go into the box for the fruit.

>

> Actually, forget the apple juice. I wouldn't mind kidnapping ya

> both! I mean, uh, having you both for a visit. Yeah, that's what I

> meant.

>

> Nikki

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

I can't tell you that! Then you'll know it's my trap and not just an

innocent box with fruit and beer in it.

 

I'll pick one from the digest here. You've listed your favorites a few

times.

 

Besides, I can think of plenty of other bait items to lure you in...

 

Nikki

 

, fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

>

> ok...i'll bite

> wot sorta imported beer ya gonna bait it with.....

> i mean, i'd hate fer ya to go thru all that trouble and have me

ignore it

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo

 

 

> If the apple juice is for Peter it's a no-no - he's allergic to

apples!

 

 

Oh I know, I was putting it in the box so that he did not accidentally

go in there with Fraggle. I figured he would not risk the reaction.

 

Then once Fraggle was in the box my brother could escort Peter safely

out of there.

 

But I scratched that plan. I'll take out the apple juice, let them

both go in there and take them both back here.

 

BB

Nikki

[Guest guest]

Ok, just seen these emails... I agree with Peter's statements about

magic although I don't think Anouk was trying to be purposefully

offensive. Witchcraft is rife in Italy, in various ways, in different

places and now Wicca is also making inroads with the younger urban

crowds who don't know about their own traditions.

 

The strega tradition that is practised by some Italo-Americans is, in

my view, not necessarily an Italian tradition as such (Fraggle, I am

assuming you are talking of Raven Grimassi's stuff here? Or have I got

the wrong end of the stick?) but more of a blend of some regional and

family traditions from Italy taken to and reinterpreted in the USA.

 

The witches I know in Sicily see themselves as good practising

catholics who also practice the craft. They see no tension between the

two and would not identify as pagans. Of course sicilian catholicism is

very pagan (well, many aspects of catholicism are essentially a

transformation of pagan practices but it is very obviously so in

southern Italy).

 

Ok, that's all my fuzzy brain can produce tonight :-)

 

BB

AlexOn 10/11/05, fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

 

the strega traditions isn't it??

 

most catholicism worldwide seems to have a hefty bit of local magical traditions intergrated into its practices..

 

 

Peter <metalscarab

Nov 10, 2005 2:35 PM

 

Re: Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

 

 

Well, if we're talking about Italy, it might be worth remembering that

witchcraft is practiced by a fairly significant number of Catholics in that

country... Alex, help me out with some details!!!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hey,

 

you'll still have to share him with me so play nice :-) LOL

 

AlexOn 11/11/05, fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

 

i'll think about accepting the sorry

 

and kewl..when peter comes to visit the colonies i can distract you easily and have him all to myself

muahahahahhahahaa

 

 

earthstrm <earthstorm

Nov 11, 2005 10:11 AM

 

Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

Oh, uh, sorry.

 

I was confused by the random excess of Peter's emails. An even worse

effect than rolling a shiny thing across the floor.

 

Nikki

[Guest guest]

*shrug*

got me...

not an expert on the matter at all..the undercurrents of modern paganism and all its different genres and adherents is waaay beyond me

i just remember as a wee fraggle and my noni had a friend who some various practices..and she said it was strega..

i've only read a few things about it over the years... Alex Iantaffi Nov 11, 2005 12:00 PM Re: Re: difference between prayer and magic Ok, just seen these emails... I agree with Peter's statements about magic although I don't think Anouk was trying to be purposefully offensive. Witchcraft is rife in Italy, in various ways, in different places and now Wicca is also making inroads with the younger urban crowds who don't know about their own traditions.The strega tradition that is practised by some Italo-Americans is, in my view, not necessarily an Italian tradition as such (Fraggle, I am assuming you are talking of Raven Grimassi's stuff here? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?) but more of a blend of some regional and family traditions from Italy taken to and reinterpreted in the USA. The witches I know in Sicily see themselves as good practising catholics who also practice the craft. They see no tension between the two and would not identify as pagans. Of course sicilian catholicism is very pagan (well, many aspects of catholicism are essentially a transformation of pagan practices but it is very obviously so in southern Italy).Ok, that's all my fuzzy brain can produce tonight :-)BBAlex

On 10/11/05, fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

the strega traditions isn't it??most catholicism worldwide seems to have a hefty bit of local magical traditions intergrated into its practices..Peter <metalscarabNov 10, 2005 2:35 PM Subject: Re: Re: difference between prayer and magicWell, if we're talking about Italy, it might be worth remembering thatwitchcraft is practiced by a fairly significant number of Catholics in thatcountry... Alex, help me out with some details!!!BBPeter

To send an email to -

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Fraggle

 

> granted, i do drink a ton of belgians..but...

 

Ummm... so how exactly do you drink Belgians? I mean, do you have to juice

them first? Do they need de-boning before juicing, or is the added calcium

helpful? :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

If she takes Peter home before he gets here because of you dear

Fraggle I'm coming looking for you!

 

You better play nice unless otherwise asked!

 

Nikki

 

 

 

 

wait..is this a poly thing????

 

KIDDING!!!!!!!

 

yes..fraggle can share and play nice...

he doesn't want alex to get mad and take the peter home in a huff

" thats it, its my ball..i'm going home! "

heh

fraggle

[Guest guest]

they have spouts on the backs of their necks....

 

 

Peter <metalscarab

Nov 11, 2005 12:12 PM

 

Re: Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

Hi Fraggle

 

> granted, i do drink a ton of belgians..but...

 

Ummm... so how exactly do you drink Belgians? I mean, do you have to juice

them first? Do they need de-boning before juicing, or is the added calcium

helpful? :-)

 

BB

Peter

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Nikki

 

> Oh I know, I was putting it in the box so that he did not accidentally

> go in there with Fraggle. I figured he would not risk the reaction.

 

Hey - what makes you think I would get into a box with Fraggle in the first

place... I mean, I don't have anything against him, but I wouldn't want to

be on the receiving end of Peter (VV)'s jealousy :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

> Hey - what makes you think I would get into a box with Fraggle in

the first

> place... I mean, I don't have anything against him, but I wouldn't

want to

> be on the receiving end of Peter (VV)'s jealousy :-)

 

 

Peter would never know and he would be too far away to stop you.

 

Besides, I could swear you were just saying the other day how you

wanted to get into a box with Fraggle.

 

It was right before the shiny thing rolled by.

 

BB

Nikki

[Guest guest]

Hi Nikki

 

> Besides, I could swear you were just saying the other day how you

> wanted to get into a box with Fraggle.

> It was right before the shiny thing rolled by.

 

Now you know very well that you lose all sense of what the conversation was

about when shiny things are aimed in your direction :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Not the jealous type me, he`s all yours Nikki! enjoy! just dont touch his beer!

 

The Valley Vegan...............

Things you did`nt know about Wales No.3

By 1500 BC Welsh was the dominant language of all of northern Europe.Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Nikki> Oh I know, I was putting it in the box so that he did not accidentally> go in there with Fraggle. I figured he would not risk the reaction.Hey - what makes you think I would get into a box with Fraggle in the firstplace... I mean, I don't have anything against him, but I wouldn't want tobe on the receiving end of Peter (VV)'s jealousy :-)BBPeter

[Guest guest]

LOL - no worries Peter!

 

It was Peter (metalscarab) that wanted Fraggle without your getting

jealous. I was kidnapping them both no matter what ya said!

 

Don't worry, I'll give you visiting rights to them both and

Fraggle's beer.

 

 

Nikki

 

, peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote:

>

> Not the jealous type me, he`s all yours Nikki! enjoy! just dont

touch his beer!

>

> The Valley Vegan...............

> Things you did`nt know about Wales No.3

> By 1500 BC Welsh was the dominant language of all of northern

Europe.

>

>

> Peter <metalscarab@g...> wrote:

> Hi Nikki

>

> > Oh I know, I was putting it in the box so that he did not

accidentally

> > go in there with Fraggle. I figured he would not risk the

reaction.

>

> Hey - what makes you think I would get into a box with Fraggle in

the first

> place... I mean, I don't have anything against him, but I wouldn't

want to

> be on the receiving end of Peter (VV)'s jealousy :-)

>

> BB

> Peter