difference between prayer and magic

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter,

 

prayer is an internal dialogue,

a meditation, a spiritual journey

an individual sacred space,

it can be emotinal to tears, dramatic,

a conversation with something, someone beyond.

a state of nirvana, rejoice, beyond any earthly orgasmic experience.

a reunion with a long lost father, a completion, a source of hope,

inspiration.

an intensely personal experience. A bond with the womb, Unification

with the universe, an excstacy indescribable beyond words in a

dictionary.

a very very sacred truth.

 

try,

telling for example, a Nun, who practises prayer five or six times a

day and has dedicated her entire life to this belief system.

that all she is doing is magic! how insulting would that be.

 

 

magic is trying to create an ilusion or reality out of things that

would otherwise be illogical. a la david copperfield.

 

 

 

I agree with you that both cannot be scientifically proven.

however trying to equate the both of them would be disrespectful to

the other (the nun).

 

 

please don't mention bush, he makes me puke.

 

 

>

> In what ways are they different? The only difference I can see is

that magic

> cuts out the middle-man.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

[Guest guest]

whoa there anouk...

please think about yer statement a little

you are placing someone elses believe system(the nun) as above and better then

someone elses(a wiccan, witch, pagan, hoodoo priest, etc)

 

please don;t take offense..i'm not tryin to be confrontational, but, wot you

just said could be taken as completely insulting as well...

 

as coming from someone who does neither...all i'm saying is be aware that wot

you take to be truth someone else might not...

prayer is often nothing more then a magical invocation..

now i lay me down to sleep, i pray the lord my soul to keep...

that my dear, is magic...

the lord's prayer has " deliver us from evil " ..that is an invocation...asking

another being to intercede on yer behalf...

 

 

Anouk Sickler <zurumato

Nov 10, 2005 12:32 PM

 

difference between prayer and magic

 

Hi Peter,

 

prayer is an internal dialogue,

a meditation, a spiritual journey

an individual sacred space,

it can be emotinal to tears, dramatic,

a conversation with something, someone beyond.

a state of nirvana, rejoice, beyond any earthly orgasmic experience.

a reunion with a long lost father, a completion, a source of hope,

inspiration.

an intensely personal experience. A bond with the womb, Unification

with the universe, an excstacy indescribable beyond words in a

dictionary.

a very very sacred truth.

 

try,

telling for example, a Nun, who practises prayer five or six times a

day and has dedicated her entire life to this belief system.

that all she is doing is magic! how insulting would that be.

 

 

magic is trying to create an ilusion or reality out of things that

would otherwise be illogical. a la david copperfield.

 

 

 

I agree with you that both cannot be scientifically proven.

however trying to equate the both of them would be disrespectful to

the other (the nun).

 

 

please don't mention bush, he makes me puke.

 

 

>

> In what ways are they different? The only difference I can see is

that magic

> cuts out the middle-man.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk

 

I would first of all like to say that I am trying to keep calm here, but I

am finding your attitude to be very offensive.

 

> prayer is an internal dialogue,

> a meditation, a spiritual journey

> an individual sacred space,

> it can be emotinal to tears, dramatic,

> a conversation with something, someone beyond.

> a state of nirvana, rejoice, beyond any earthly orgasmic experience.

> a reunion with a long lost father, a completion, a source of hope,

> inspiration.

> an intensely personal experience. A bond with the womb, Unification

> with the universe, an excstacy indescribable beyond words in a

> dictionary.

> a very very sacred truth.

 

That is exactly what magic can be. In its most basic definition, magic is

" changing consciousness at will " .

 

> try,

> telling for example, a Nun, who practises prayer five or six times a

> day and has dedicated her entire life to this belief system.

> that all she is doing is magic! how insulting would that be.

 

How dare you suggest that the practice of magic is somehow less than praying

purely because it does not follow a Christian role-model. To all intents and

purposes it is exactly the same thing - people do dedicate their lives to

doing good through magic, and through other means. This is not the preserve

of Christians.

 

> magic is trying to create an ilusion or reality out of things that

> would otherwise be illogical. a la david copperfield.

 

I really wish that if you don't know about something, you would ask people

who do, rather than make bold assumptions which denigrate other people's

belief systems. David Copperfield is an ILLUSIONIST. He is not a witch, and

he has never claimed to be one. What David Copperfield does is a stage act

for entertainment - he uses slight of hand to amuse people.Witches do not

practice for the entertainment of others, but create change through

will-power, or through communion with spirits, or in any of thousands of

different ways - but NEVER with the aim of showing off to an audience with

trickery.

 

> I agree with you that both cannot be scientifically proven.

> however trying to equate the both of them would be disrespectful to

> the other (the nun).

 

I am really upset by your somewhat fundamentalist attitude. You quite

bluntly state that my spiritual path is not as worthy af respect as yours.

It is an incredibly offensive attitude to take, and clearly comes from an

ignorance of other beliefs - I will be very happy to answer questions about

my beliefs and practices, but I will not accept this patronising and

condescending attitude from someone who clearly hasn't got a clue.

 

Peter

[Guest guest]

hi fraggle,

that is your definition of prayer. Perhaps prayer is more detached in

the US. it was never as routine as just a bedtime or meal prayer.

 

My mother grew up in a convent, and I attended school at that same

convent as well, (our sacred lady of miracles) these people take

themselves very seriously and have dedicated their lives to this

belief system. My experiences in Dominican Republic are that these

are the words and feelings that people used when describing prayer.

 

I am not intentionally belittling anyone. I perhaps

identify more with the Pagan than the Catholic, when I took that

religion quiz, it came out as my third, my first one was hinduism,

then budhism, then paganism.

 

 

perhaps I need to hang out more often with people who actually

practise magic, for that is the only definetion that I know of.

 

If people who practise magic, equate and define the meaning of magic

with the words that I used to describe prayer as well.

I think that is great, but I am not aware of this.

 

What gives you the right to define for them, entire nations of

people, Italy, most of South America, Most of Mexico, Greece,

Dominican Republic, etc. the word Prayer, with words that they would

never used to describe it themselves. Seems to me condescending and

trivializing.

 

You might (if you feel like it) perchance enter one of these

beautifully built architectural gothic, monumental cathedral buildings

when you visit Italy next year. If you observe the people (not the

tourists) you will see what I mean. and Why they felt the need to

build and visit these immense structures.

 

why is there such a need to equalize the two different experiences of

two different religions?

 

 

, fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

>

> whoa there anouk...

> please think about yer statement a little

> you are placing someone elses believe system(the nun) as above and

better then someone elses(a wiccan, witch, pagan, hoodoo priest, etc)

>

> please don;t take offense..i'm not tryin to be confrontational, but,

wot you just said could be taken as completely insulting as well...

>

> as coming from someone who does neither...all i'm saying is be aware

that wot you take to be truth someone else might not...

> prayer is often nothing more then a magical invocation..

> now i lay me down to sleep, i pray the lord my soul to keep...

> that my dear, is magic...

> the lord's prayer has " deliver us from evil " ..that is an

invocation...asking another being to intercede on yer behalf...

>

[Guest guest]

but why does someone someones use of *magic* have to be a non-religious deep

meaningful experience for that person?

that was part of my point..

if someone feels all attuned because they prayer..wotever..good fer them

my point is, so can someone using a magical ritual...

 

 

Anouk Sickler <zurumato

Nov 10, 2005 2:10 PM

 

Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

hi fraggle,

that is your definition of prayer. Perhaps prayer is more detached in

the US. it was never as routine as just a bedtime or meal prayer.

 

My mother grew up in a convent, and I attended school at that same

convent as well, (our sacred lady of miracles) these people take

themselves very seriously and have dedicated their lives to this

belief system. My experiences in Dominican Republic are that these

are the words and feelings that people used when describing prayer.

 

I am not intentionally belittling anyone. I perhaps

identify more with the Pagan than the Catholic, when I took that

religion quiz, it came out as my third, my first one was hinduism,

then budhism, then paganism.

 

 

perhaps I need to hang out more often with people who actually

practise magic, for that is the only definetion that I know of.

 

If people who practise magic, equate and define the meaning of magic

with the words that I used to describe prayer as well.

I think that is great, but I am not aware of this.

 

What gives you the right to define for them, entire nations of

people, Italy, most of South America, Most of Mexico, Greece,

Dominican Republic, etc. the word Prayer, with words that they would

never used to describe it themselves. Seems to me condescending and

trivializing.

 

You might (if you feel like it) perchance enter one of these

beautifully built architectural gothic, monumental cathedral buildings

when you visit Italy next year. If you observe the people (not the

tourists) you will see what I mean. and Why they felt the need to

build and visit these immense structures.

 

why is there such a need to equalize the two different experiences of

two different religions?

 

 

, fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

>

> whoa there anouk...

> please think about yer statement a little

> you are placing someone elses believe system(the nun) as above and

better then someone elses(a wiccan, witch, pagan, hoodoo priest, etc)

>

> please don;t take offense..i'm not tryin to be confrontational, but,

wot you just said could be taken as completely insulting as well...

>

> as coming from someone who does neither...all i'm saying is be aware

that wot you take to be truth someone else might not...

> prayer is often nothing more then a magical invocation..

> now i lay me down to sleep, i pray the lord my soul to keep...

> that my dear, is magic...

> the lord's prayer has " deliver us from evil " ..that is an

invocation...asking another being to intercede on yer behalf...

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

Anouk

 

> What gives you the right to define for them, entire nations of

> people, Italy, most of South America, Most of Mexico, Greece,

> Dominican Republic, etc. the word Prayer, with words that they would

> never used to describe it themselves. Seems to me condescending and

> trivializing.

 

Hang on, most of South America and Mexico have traditional magical

practices - it's only the Spanish invaders that brought Christianity with

them and attempted to wipe out anything different. Traditional forms of

magic are practiced far more widely than the few places you mention. Aside

from modern Western witchcraft, you've got all of the ancient tribal

practices of North and South America, who still practice today, the shamans

of Siberia who were practicing until Kruschev wiped them out in the early

1960s, the Sami of Finland, and its related practices across Scandinavia,

the " cunning-folk " of Western Europe, aboriginal practices in Australia,

etc. etc. What gives you the right to denigrate those practices simply

because they aren't what was taught in your convent school?

 

> You might (if you feel like it) perchance enter one of these

> beautifully built architectural gothic, monumental cathedral buildings

> when you visit Italy next year. If you observe the people (not the

> tourists) you will see what I mean. and Why they felt the need to

> build and visit these immense structures.

 

Well, if we're talking about Italy, it might be worth remembering that

witchcraft is practiced by a fairly significant number of Catholics in that

country... Alex, help me out with some details!!!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

the strega traditions isn't it??

 

most catholicism worldwide seems to have a hefty bit of local magical traditions

intergrated into its practices..

 

 

Peter <metalscarab

Nov 10, 2005 2:35 PM

 

Re: Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

 

 

Well, if we're talking about Italy, it might be worth remembering that

witchcraft is practiced by a fairly significant number of Catholics in that

country... Alex, help me out with some details!!!

 

BB

Peter

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk

 

I know you don't mean to but you are getting a little insulting here.

You are saying that prayer is superior to magic. You are entitled

to your opinion but sometimes opinions shouldn't be said out loud.

How would you feel if we said magic was superior to prayer, and that

to have magic called prayer was an insult. You must see this from the

other point of view.

 

What you are calling prayer is actually meditation, and people of all

religions or none meditate. A prayer means asking for something from

some superior being.

 

David Copperfield has nothing to do with magic. He is an illusionist

- so please, once again, think what you say so that you don't cause

offense.

 

I would suggest you meditate on not hurting peoples feelings, or pray

for guidance on kind thought.

 

BB

Jo

 

, " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato@e...> wrote:

>

> Hi Peter,

>

> prayer is an internal dialogue,

> a meditation, a spiritual journey

> an individual sacred space,

> it can be emotinal to tears, dramatic,

> a conversation with something, someone beyond.

> a state of nirvana, rejoice, beyond any earthly orgasmic experience.

> a reunion with a long lost father, a completion, a source of hope,

> inspiration.

> an intensely personal experience. A bond with the womb, Unification

> with the universe, an excstacy indescribable beyond words in a

> dictionary.

> a very very sacred truth.

>

> try,

> telling for example, a Nun, who practises prayer five or six times a

> day and has dedicated her entire life to this belief system.

> that all she is doing is magic! how insulting would that be.

>

>

> magic is trying to create an ilusion or reality out of things that

> would otherwise be illogical. a la david copperfield.

>

>

>

> I agree with you that both cannot be scientifically proven.

> however trying to equate the both of them would be disrespectful to

> the other (the nun).

>

>

> please don't mention bush, he makes me puke.

>

>

> >

> > In what ways are they different? The only difference I can see is

> that magic

> > cuts out the middle-man.

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Anouk

 

Nuns would not take themselves more seriously than witches. You have

just been taught to respect them more than other people.

 

Can you tell me how Hinduism is apart from Paganism. It is a word

which lumped together the Pagan religions of that area.

 

If you look at what you say, you are belittling other people, but an

apology would be accepted.

 

Why would you think that you alone have experience of talking with

people from different countries about their spirituality, and that you

are any more expert than anyone else?

 

As I said in another post - your description is actually meditation,

which is not tied to one religion, or any religion.

 

Jo

 

, " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato@e...> wrote:

>

> hi fraggle,

> that is your definition of prayer. Perhaps prayer is more detached in

> the US. it was never as routine as just a bedtime or meal prayer.

>

> My mother grew up in a convent, and I attended school at that same

> convent as well, (our sacred lady of miracles) these people take

> themselves very seriously and have dedicated their lives to this

> belief system. My experiences in Dominican Republic are that these

> are the words and feelings that people used when describing prayer.

>

> I am not intentionally belittling anyone. I perhaps

> identify more with the Pagan than the Catholic, when I took that

> religion quiz, it came out as my third, my first one was hinduism,

> then budhism, then paganism.

>

>

> perhaps I need to hang out more often with people who actually

> practise magic, for that is the only definetion that I know of.

>

> If people who practise magic, equate and define the meaning of magic

> with the words that I used to describe prayer as well.

> I think that is great, but I am not aware of this.

>

> What gives you the right to define for them, entire nations of

> people, Italy, most of South America, Most of Mexico, Greece,

> Dominican Republic, etc. the word Prayer, with words that they would

> never used to describe it themselves. Seems to me condescending and

> trivializing.

>

> You might (if you feel like it) perchance enter one of these

> beautifully built architectural gothic, monumental cathedral buildings

> when you visit Italy next year. If you observe the people (not the

> tourists) you will see what I mean. and Why they felt the need to

> build and visit these immense structures.

>

> why is there such a need to equalize the two different experiences of

> two different religions?

>

>

> , fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

> >

> > whoa there anouk...

> > please think about yer statement a little

> > you are placing someone elses believe system(the nun) as above and

> better then someone elses(a wiccan, witch, pagan, hoodoo priest, etc)

> >

> > please don;t take offense..i'm not tryin to be confrontational, but,

> wot you just said could be taken as completely insulting as well...

> >

> > as coming from someone who does neither...all i'm saying is be aware

> that wot you take to be truth someone else might not...

> > prayer is often nothing more then a magical invocation..

> > now i lay me down to sleep, i pray the lord my soul to keep...

> > that my dear, is magic...

> > the lord's prayer has " deliver us from evil " ..that is an

> invocation...asking another being to intercede on yer behalf...

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

I don't know much apart from the fact that there is one entire area of

Italy that is Pagan.

 

Don't get upset by this strange attitude though.

 

BB

Jo

 

, " Peter " <metalscarab@g...> wrote:

>

> Anouk

>

> > What gives you the right to define for them, entire nations of

> > people, Italy, most of South America, Most of Mexico, Greece,

> > Dominican Republic, etc. the word Prayer, with words that they would

> > never used to describe it themselves. Seems to me condescending and

> > trivializing.

>

> Hang on, most of South America and Mexico have traditional magical

> practices - it's only the Spanish invaders that brought Christianity

with

> them and attempted to wipe out anything different. Traditional forms of

> magic are practiced far more widely than the few places you mention.

Aside

> from modern Western witchcraft, you've got all of the ancient tribal

> practices of North and South America, who still practice today, the

shamans

> of Siberia who were practicing until Kruschev wiped them out in the

early

> 1960s, the Sami of Finland, and its related practices across

Scandinavia,

> the " cunning-folk " of Western Europe, aboriginal practices in Australia,

> etc. etc. What gives you the right to denigrate those practices simply

> because they aren't what was taught in your convent school?

>

> > You might (if you feel like it) perchance enter one of these

> > beautifully built architectural gothic, monumental cathedral buildings

> > when you visit Italy next year. If you observe the people (not the

> > tourists) you will see what I mean. and Why they felt the need to

> > build and visit these immense structures.

>

> Well, if we're talking about Italy, it might be worth remembering that

> witchcraft is practiced by a fairly significant number of Catholics

in that

> country... Alex, help me out with some details!!!

>

> BB

> Peter

>

[Guest guest]

I think that's it Fraggle.

 

BB

Jo

 

, fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

>

> the strega traditions isn't it??

>

> most catholicism worldwide seems to have a hefty bit of local

magical traditions intergrated into its practices..

>

>

> Peter <metalscarab@g...>

> Nov 10, 2005 2:35 PM

>

> Re: Re: difference between prayer and magic

>

>

>

> Well, if we're talking about Italy, it might be worth remembering that

> witchcraft is practiced by a fairly significant number of Catholics

in that

> country... Alex, help me out with some details!!!

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk

 

> prayer is an internal dialogue,

> a meditation, a spiritual journey

> an individual sacred space,

> it can be emotinal to tears, dramatic,

> a conversation with something, someone beyond.

> a state of nirvana, rejoice, beyond any earthly orgasmic

experience.

> a reunion with a long lost father, a completion, a source of hope,

> inspiration.

> an intensely personal experience. A bond with the womb,

Unification

> with the universe, an excstacy indescribable beyond words in a

> dictionary.

> a very very sacred truth.

 

So is ritual / spells.

 

 

> try,

> telling for example, a Nun, who practises prayer five or six

times a

> day and has dedicated her entire life to this belief system.

> that all she is doing is magic! how insulting would that be.

 

Try telling a witch the above paragraph before this and see how

he/she feels.

 

 

> magic is trying to create an ilusion or reality out of things that

> would otherwise be illogical. a la david copperfield.

 

These are simply your views of what you know magic to be. Not

necessarily of what it is Anouk. Magic is not blinking and making

something appear. You are thinking of commercial magic when you

think of Copperfield. And that is insulting to a witch.

 

> I agree with you that both cannot be scientifically proven.

> however trying to equate the both of them would be disrespectful to

> the other (the nun).

 

So please respect our beliefs.

 

Nikki

[Guest guest]

, " Peter " <metalscarab@g...> wrote

> Hang on, most of South America and Mexico have traditional magical

> practices - it's only the Spanish invaders that brought Christianity

with

> them and attempted to wipe out anything different. Traditional forms of

> magic are practiced far more widely than the few places you mention.

Aside

> from modern Western witchcraft, you've got all of the ancient tribal

> practices of North and South America, who still practice today, the

shamans

> of Siberia who were practicing until Kruschev wiped them out in the

early

> 1960s, the Sami of Finland, and its related practices across

Scandinavia,

> the " cunning-folk " of Western Europe, aboriginal practices in Australia,

> etc. etc. What gives you the right to denigrate those practices simply

> because they aren't what was taught in your convent school?

 

Hi Peter, I only went for a year (not even) because I escaped. I hated

it.

I think that you may have " Magic " and Witcraft confused, I would never

denigrate the rituals of the native indians of any country. Anyone who

know me would understand how much I respect them. I agree that it is

unfortunate how the spaniards christianized many indigenous people.

My family practises

Witcraft.(some more than others) when I was a kid they would bring me

over to Haiti to cure me of whatever was ailing me.We had our favorite

Warlock. These strange things, they actually worked. I had warts on

my fingers and I was asked to bury salt in the earth by a river.

Many Catholic people, I know practise witchcraft and catholism

interchangably and at the same time, as do cubans. (Santeria)

I have been to many Santerias in El Barrio, a puerto rican

neighborhood in Harlem.

 

>

> Well, if we're talking about Italy, it might be worth remembering that

> witchcraft is practiced by a fairly significant number of Catholics

in that

> country... Alex, help me out with some details!!!

>

 

I have never been to Italy but I can gather, that their practices are

similar to those Roman Catholics in the US, Caribean and elsewhere, It

is a wish of some little old ladies that I have talked to, to go visit

the Vatican before they die.

[Guest guest]

, " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@g...> wrote:

>

> Hi Anouk

>

> I know you don't mean to but you are getting a little insulting here.

> You are saying that prayer is superior to magic. You are entitled

> to your opinion but sometimes opinions shouldn't be said out loud.

> How would you feel if we said magic was superior to prayer, and that

> to have magic called prayer was an insult. You must see this from the

> other point of view.

 

 

I do like magic and respect it and was not aware of how important it

is Witches.

I just didn't think that they were the same, In my book, they are two

totally different things.

 

 

>

> What you are calling prayer is actually meditation, and people of all

> religions or none meditate. A prayer means asking for something from

> some superior being.

>

> David Copperfield has nothing to do with magic. He is an illusionist

> - so please, once again, think what you say so that you don't cause

> offense.

>

> I would suggest you meditate on not hurting peoples feelings, or pray

> for guidance on kind thought.

 

 

 

I will do that, I thought that David Copperfield was a magician.

Sorry. I agree that my initial email on " what do witches do all day?

and " some of them are posers " had a disrespectful tone.

[Guest guest]

, " Peter " <metalscarab@g...> wrote:

>

> Hi Anouk

>

> I would first of all like to say that I am trying to keep calm here,

but I

> am finding your attitude to be very offensive.

 

 

Hi Peter, I did not mean to be offensive, I was just explaining a

point a point of view. I was also offended.

 

 

 

> How dare you suggest that the practice of magic is somehow less than

praying

> purely because it does not follow a Christian role-model. To all

intents and

> purposes it is exactly the same thing - people do dedicate their

lives to

> doing good through magic, and through other means. This is not the

preserve

> of Christians.

 

I am always impressed and respect many magicians, I once saw a

magician on 42nd st. Everyone left with a smile on their face and

where deaply touched. David Blaine, I think was his name, and I have

no idea how he did what he did, I honestly might be persuaded to

believe that magic is real.

 

 

> I really wish that if you don't know about something, you would ask

people

> who do, rather than make bold assumptions which denigrate other people's

> belief systems. David Copperfield is an ILLUSIONIST. He is not a

witch, and

> he has never claimed to be one. What David Copperfield does is a

stage act

> for entertainment - he uses slight of hand to amuse people.Witches

do not

> practice for the entertainment of others, but create change through

> will-power, or through communion with spirits, or in any of thousands of

> different ways - but NEVER with the aim of showing off to an

audience with

> trickery.

 

I dont believe that he is a Witch either. I understood the origianal

statement that fraggle made to be offensive to many people. He equated

doing magic tricks to an act which to some people is very spiritual.

that is why i said a nun would be offended. I don't understand why

the two are similar.

 

I was not making a statement on Witchcraft, which is different.

The fact that some witches practise magic,is a great thing, I was not

fully aware of how important it was to them.

 

I got a magic kit for my birthday, when I was a kid, but It was not

for religious reasons it was just a toy to me.

 

>

> I am really upset by your somewhat fundamentalist attitude. You quite

> bluntly state that my spiritual path is not as worthy af respect as

yours.

> It is an incredibly offensive attitude to take, and clearly comes

from an

> ignorance of other beliefs - I will be very happy to answer

questions about

> my beliefs and practices, but I will not accept this patronising and

> condescending attitude from someone who clearly hasn't got a clue.

 

I never said anything negative about Pagans, are you a witch, warlock

too? I did not know this. With my school work, I sometimes skip

messages because I can't read them all. you guys write too much!

 

I do not consider myself catholic, my children have never been to a

catholic church and the oldest one is seven.

My background and family members are catholic. I also know that they

would feel offended if someone equated what they do with illusions

of david copperfield.

I am sorry if that offends anybody, It was not intentional.

 

I do have a clue about that part of my life, but not about the Magic

that is so important to witches. I have never honestly seen a witch

perform magic. Just Bewitched on TV, which by the way I really liked,

but is no way similar to reality.

[Guest guest]

, " earthstrm " <nikkimack@m...> wrote:

>

> Hi Anouk

>

>

> So is ritual / spells.

>

>

> These are simply your views of what you know magic to be. Not

> necessarily of what it is Anouk. Magic is not blinking and making

> something appear. You are thinking of commercial magic when you

> think of Copperfield. And that is insulting to a witch.

 

 

Hi nikki,

 

So which is the other type of magic? Are the rituals and spells part

of Magic too?

 

I am tired, it is 2 am, and I just came from worked the last shift

left over

from a cdc study asking mexicans in california in spanish about their

sexual behaviours, when I got to certain questions they would hung up

on me.

 

I would love to find out more about the kind of magic that witches do.

I will do a search for websites. But for now, I apologize to anyone

that I have offended. This group has too many emails from me.

so I will rest and not have so many opinions.

Please talk about nicer things. I have a lot to learn.

[Guest guest]

See now this entire thread is exactly why I do not like getting into

discussions on religion. There are too many ways to take one

sentence said differently and too many ways to accidentally insult

someone.

 

Personally, though I cannot speak for him, I think Fraggle was just

trying to show you another view on a belief. Not trying in anyway to

insult you are any other religion. And you may not agree with his

views, but someone with a like background and experience as yours

may. That is what makes us all beautifully different.

 

I am a witch. I believe Alex said she was one as well. I will bet

you anything we practice differently and yet the same in some ways.

Why, because we have different takes and views on things.

 

You view magic as David Copperfield, whether a witch's magic or

Pagan magic that was your view. You said it yourself. My view on

magic is more spiritual and deep as somewhat in your description of

prayer.

 

Now, every religion has it's own views that are taken and practiced

by everyone differently. Take 10 people out of any one chapel,

temple or church (using chapel, temple and church generically here)

that follow the same religion and you will get at least 5 different

views and ways of practice. Of course with some simularities.

 

That's it. Point blank, everyone views it differently and all we can

do is give you our views. Same as you. Please share your views but

understand that nothing is as black and white as you seem to think

it is.

 

((hugz))

Nikki - not arguing, just my opinion & thoughts

 

, " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato@e...>

wrote:

>

> hi fraggle,

> that is your definition of prayer. Perhaps prayer is more

detached in

> the US. it was never as routine as just a bedtime or meal prayer.

>

> My mother grew up in a convent, and I attended school at that same

> convent as well, (our sacred lady of miracles) these people take

> themselves very seriously and have dedicated their lives to this

> belief system. My experiences in Dominican Republic are that these

> are the words and feelings that people used when describing prayer.

>

> I am not intentionally belittling anyone. I perhaps

> identify more with the Pagan than the Catholic, when I took that

> religion quiz, it came out as my third, my first one was hinduism,

> then budhism, then paganism.

>

>

> perhaps I need to hang out more often with people who actually

> practise magic, for that is the only definetion that I know of.

>

> If people who practise magic, equate and define the meaning of

magic

> with the words that I used to describe prayer as well.

> I think that is great, but I am not aware of this.

>

> What gives you the right to define for them, entire nations of

> people, Italy, most of South America, Most of Mexico, Greece,

> Dominican Republic, etc. the word Prayer, with words that they

would

> never used to describe it themselves. Seems to me condescending

and

> trivializing.

>

> You might (if you feel like it) perchance enter one of these

> beautifully built architectural gothic, monumental cathedral

buildings

> when you visit Italy next year. If you observe the people (not the

> tourists) you will see what I mean. and Why they felt the need to

> build and visit these immense structures.

>

> why is there such a need to equalize the two different experiences

of

> two different religions?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Anouk

 

I really think that maybe it is you is confused.

 

Tell us your definition of magic and your definition of witchcraft.

 

Jo

-

" Anouk Sickler " <zurumato

 

Friday, November 11, 2005 7:04 AM

Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

 

>

>

> , " Peter " <metalscarab@g...> wrote

> > Hang on, most of South America and Mexico have traditional magical

> > practices - it's only the Spanish invaders that brought Christianity

> with

> > them and attempted to wipe out anything different. Traditional forms of

> > magic are practiced far more widely than the few places you mention.

> Aside

> > from modern Western witchcraft, you've got all of the ancient tribal

> > practices of North and South America, who still practice today, the

> shamans

> > of Siberia who were practicing until Kruschev wiped them out in the

> early

> > 1960s, the Sami of Finland, and its related practices across

> Scandinavia,

> > the " cunning-folk " of Western Europe, aboriginal practices in Australia,

> > etc. etc. What gives you the right to denigrate those practices simply

> > because they aren't what was taught in your convent school?

>

> Hi Peter, I only went for a year (not even) because I escaped. I hated

> it.

> I think that you may have " Magic " and Witcraft confused, I would never

> denigrate the rituals of the native indians of any country. Anyone who

> know me would understand how much I respect them. I agree that it is

> unfortunate how the spaniards christianized many indigenous people.

> My family practises

> Witcraft.(some more than others) when I was a kid they would bring me

> over to Haiti to cure me of whatever was ailing me.We had our favorite

> Warlock. These strange things, they actually worked. I had warts on

> my fingers and I was asked to bury salt in the earth by a river.

> Many Catholic people, I know practise witchcraft and catholism

> interchangably and at the same time, as do cubans. (Santeria)

> I have been to many Santerias in El Barrio, a puerto rican

> neighborhood in Harlem.

>

> >

> > Well, if we're talking about Italy, it might be worth remembering that

> > witchcraft is practiced by a fairly significant number of Catholics

> in that

> > country... Alex, help me out with some details!!!

> >

>

> I have never been to Italy but I can gather, that their practices are

> similar to those Roman Catholics in the US, Caribean and elsewhere, It

> is a wish of some little old ladies that I have talked to, to go visit

> the Vatican before they die.

>

>

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Anouk

 

I think that you have become confused between the meanings of witchcraft and

illusion.

 

David Copperfield and David Blaine are fantastic illusionists - very clever

and entertaining. I admire them. What they do is not magic it is creating

an illusion.

 

Witchcraft includes the practice of many things - herbalism, astrology etc.

and the use of magic but not the contriving of illusion.

 

Fraggle did not compare prayer with illusion - he compared prayer with

magic.

 

Jo

 

 

-

" Anouk Sickler " <zurumato

 

Friday, November 11, 2005 7:47 AM

Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

 

> , " Peter " <metalscarab@g...> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Anouk

> >

> > I would first of all like to say that I am trying to keep calm here,

> but I

> > am finding your attitude to be very offensive.

>

>

> Hi Peter, I did not mean to be offensive, I was just explaining a

> point a point of view. I was also offended.

>

>

>

> > How dare you suggest that the practice of magic is somehow less than

> praying

> > purely because it does not follow a Christian role-model. To all

> intents and

> > purposes it is exactly the same thing - people do dedicate their

> lives to

> > doing good through magic, and through other means. This is not the

> preserve

> > of Christians.

>

> I am always impressed and respect many magicians, I once saw a

> magician on 42nd st. Everyone left with a smile on their face and

> where deaply touched. David Blaine, I think was his name, and I have

> no idea how he did what he did, I honestly might be persuaded to

> believe that magic is real.

>

>

> > I really wish that if you don't know about something, you would ask

> people

> > who do, rather than make bold assumptions which denigrate other people's

> > belief systems. David Copperfield is an ILLUSIONIST. He is not a

> witch, and

> > he has never claimed to be one. What David Copperfield does is a

> stage act

> > for entertainment - he uses slight of hand to amuse people.Witches

> do not

> > practice for the entertainment of others, but create change through

> > will-power, or through communion with spirits, or in any of thousands of

> > different ways - but NEVER with the aim of showing off to an

> audience with

> > trickery.

>

> I dont believe that he is a Witch either. I understood the origianal

> statement that fraggle made to be offensive to many people. He equated

> doing magic tricks to an act which to some people is very spiritual.

> that is why i said a nun would be offended. I don't understand why

> the two are similar.

>

> I was not making a statement on Witchcraft, which is different.

> The fact that some witches practise magic,is a great thing, I was not

> fully aware of how important it was to them.

>

> I got a magic kit for my birthday, when I was a kid, but It was not

> for religious reasons it was just a toy to me.

>

> >

> > I am really upset by your somewhat fundamentalist attitude. You quite

> > bluntly state that my spiritual path is not as worthy af respect as

> yours.

> > It is an incredibly offensive attitude to take, and clearly comes

> from an

> > ignorance of other beliefs - I will be very happy to answer

> questions about

> > my beliefs and practices, but I will not accept this patronising and

> > condescending attitude from someone who clearly hasn't got a clue.

>

> I never said anything negative about Pagans, are you a witch, warlock

> too? I did not know this. With my school work, I sometimes skip

> messages because I can't read them all. you guys write too much!

>

> I do not consider myself catholic, my children have never been to a

> catholic church and the oldest one is seven.

> My background and family members are catholic. I also know that they

> would feel offended if someone equated what they do with illusions

> of david copperfield.

> I am sorry if that offends anybody, It was not intentional.

>

> I do have a clue about that part of my life, but not about the Magic

> that is so important to witches. I have never honestly seen a witch

> perform magic. Just Bewitched on TV, which by the way I really liked,

> but is no way similar to reality.

>

>

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk

 

I know it can be hard to follow every thread and read every mail and

no one can fault you for that. I think the problem is that your

conception of magic is not necessarily wrong, for that conception is

of commercial magic. Kits, magician shows etc.

 

The magic we practice is very much different.

 

Let us walk away from the word magic for a moment and try something

different.

 

When I perform a spell or ritual, I do so believing with all my

heart that what I am asking for will come true. Much like a Catholic

will pray to God asking for help.

 

Let us say someone is sick and you want to help them be well. It is

believed in Catholic churches that if the whole congregation prays

for that person, God will hear their prayers. And if it is in God's

will, he will answer them.

 

So is alot like my ceremony. I simply use different tools than

alters and statues.

 

I " pray " that the someone inflicted will be well and then I will it

to be so. I believe in my heart and being that this will come true.

Does it always, no. Because sometimes that is just not the way it as

meant to be.

 

Throw away the thought of magic being an instant trick, it is not. I

have not the power to snap my fingers and make someone better. I do

have the will and spirit to help though.

 

Is that any clearer or am I just confusing it more?

 

Nikki

 

> Hi nikki,

>

> So which is the other type of magic? Are the rituals and spells

part

> of Magic too?

>

> I am tired, it is 2 am, and I just came from worked the last shift

> left over

> from a cdc study asking mexicans in california in spanish about

their

> sexual behaviours, when I got to certain questions they would hung

up

> on me.

>

> I would love to find out more about the kind of magic that witches

do.

> I will do a search for websites. But for now, I apologize to anyone

> that I have offended. This group has too many emails from me.

> so I will rest and not have so many opinions.

> Please talk about nicer things. I have a lot to learn.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Nikki,

 

Thanks, that sounds very spiritual and peace loving.

I had different connotations to the word. I separated the word Magic

and Witchcraft.

The definetion of someone doing magic tricks for money is the one I

thought that fraggle had used, sorry about the confusion.

 

I don't think that the word magic, translates well as Witchcraft, in

spanish.

which is the language that I have in my head, being my first.

 

anyway, I have found the website, for the Witch Art (I am assuming it

is Witch art, because my sister in law gave me this artwork for my

birthday)

It is really beuatiful, mystical, I have always been attracted to

these kinds of images.

 

check it out http://www.kycraft.com

 

 

 

 

 

, " earthstrm " <nikkimack@m...> wrote:

>

> Hi Anouk

>

> I know it can be hard to follow every thread and read every mail and

> no one can fault you for that. I think the problem is that your

> conception of magic is not necessarily wrong, for that conception is

> of commercial magic. Kits, magician shows etc.

>

> The magic we practice is very much different.

>

> Let us walk away from the word magic for a moment and try something

> different.

>

> When I perform a spell or ritual, I do so believing with all my

> heart that what I am asking for will come true. Much like a Catholic

> will pray to God asking for help.

>

> Let us say someone is sick and you want to help them be well. It is

> believed in Catholic churches that if the whole congregation prays

> for that person, God will hear their prayers. And if it is in God's

> will, he will answer them.

>

> So is alot like my ceremony. I simply use different tools than

> alters and statues.

>

> I " pray " that the someone inflicted will be well and then I will it

> to be so. I believe in my heart and being that this will come true.

> Does it always, no. Because sometimes that is just not the way it as

> meant to be.

>

> Throw away the thought of magic being an instant trick, it is not. I

> have not the power to snap my fingers and make someone better. I do

> have the will and spirit to help though.

>

> Is that any clearer or am I just confusing it more?

>

> Nikki

>

>

[Guest guest]

mag·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mjk)n.

 

The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

 

The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature. The charms, spells, and rituals so used.

The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment. A mysterious quality of enchantment: “For me the names of those men breathed the magic of the past” (Max Beerbohm).

adj.

 

Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural: “stubborn unlaid ghost/That breaks his magic chains at curfew time” (John Milton). Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or baffling effects.

prayer1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prâr)n.

 

 

 

A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship. The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.

An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving: One evening a week, the family would join together in prayer. A specially worded form used to address God, a god, or another object of worship. prayers A religious observance in which praying predominates: morning prayers.

 

A fervent request: Her prayer for rain was granted at last. The thing requested: His safe arrival was their only prayer.

The slightest chance or hope: In a storm the mountain climbers won't have a prayer. Law.

The request of a complainant, as stated in a complaint or in equity, that the court grant the aid or relief solicited. The section of the complaint or bill that contains this request.

http://dictionary.reference.com/

 

Would you say these are accurate definitions? If so, it seems to me that one definition a person makes a petition for something, whereas the other in one definition a person tries to control or make something happen themselves?Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi AnoukI would first of all like to say that I am trying to keep calm here, but Iam finding your attitude to be very offensive.> prayer is an internal dialogue,> a meditation, a spiritual journey> an individual sacred space,> it can be emotinal to tears, dramatic,> a conversation with something, someone beyond.> a state of nirvana, rejoice, beyond any earthly orgasmic experience.> a reunion with a long lost father, a completion, a source of hope,> inspiration.> an intensely personal experience. A bond with the womb, Unification> with the universe, an excstacy indescribable beyond words in a> dictionary.> a very very sacred truth.That is exactly what magic can be. In its most basic definition, magic is"changing consciousness at will".>

try,> telling for example, a Nun, who practises prayer five or six times a> day and has dedicated her entire life to this belief system.> that all she is doing is magic! how insulting would that be.How dare you suggest that the practice of magic is somehow less than prayingpurely because it does not follow a Christian role-model. To all intents andpurposes it is exactly the same thing - people do dedicate their lives todoing good through magic, and through other means. This is not the preserveof Christians.> magic is trying to create an ilusion or reality out of things that> would otherwise be illogical. a la david copperfield.I really wish that if you don't know about something, you would ask peoplewho do, rather than make bold assumptions which denigrate other people'sbelief systems. David Copperfield is an ILLUSIONIST. He is not a witch, andhe has never claimed to be one. What

David Copperfield does is a stage actfor entertainment - he uses slight of hand to amuse people.Witches do notpractice for the entertainment of others, but create change throughwill-power, or through communion with spirits, or in any of thousands ofdifferent ways - but NEVER with the aim of showing off to an audience withtrickery.> I agree with you that both cannot be scientifically proven.> however trying to equate the both of them would be disrespectful to> the other (the nun).I am really upset by your somewhat fundamentalist attitude. You quitebluntly state that my spiritual path is not as worthy af respect as yours.It is an incredibly offensive attitude to take, and clearly comes from anignorance of other beliefs - I will be very happy to answer questions aboutmy beliefs and practices, but I will not accept this patronising andcondescending attitude from someone who clearly hasn't got a

clue.Peter

FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

[Guest guest]

no anouk, i was not equating someone who does *tricks* with prayer...

i said magic....

you are assuming david blaine, copperfield et al do magic in the realm we are

talkin about

they don't

they are entertainers..they do slight of hand thigs

i'm talkin magic....spells..conjurations..invocations...

 

 

Anouk Sickler <zurumato

Nov 10, 2005 11:47 PM

 

Re: difference between prayer and magic

 

I am always impressed and respect many magicians, I once saw a

magician on 42nd st. Everyone left with a smile on their face and

where deaply touched. David Blaine, I think was his name, and I have

no idea how he did what he did, I honestly might be persuaded to

believe that magic is real.

 

 

> I really wish that if you don't know about something, you would ask

people

> who do, rather than make bold assumptions which denigrate other people's

> belief systems. David Copperfield is an ILLUSIONIST. He is not a

witch, and

> he has never claimed to be one. What David Copperfield does is a

stage act

> for entertainment - he uses slight of hand to amuse people.Witches

do not

> practice for the entertainment of others, but create change through

> will-power, or through communion with spirits, or in any of thousands of

> different ways - but NEVER with the aim of showing off to an

audience with

> trickery.

 

I dont believe that he is a Witch either. I understood the origianal

statement that fraggle made to be offensive to many people. He equated

doing magic tricks to an act which to some people is very spiritual.

that is why i said a nun would be offended. I don't understand why

the two are similar.

 

I was not making a statement on Witchcraft, which is different.

The fact that some witches practise magic,is a great thing, I was not

fully aware of how important it was to them.

 

I got a magic kit for my birthday, when I was a kid, but It was not

for religious reasons it was just a toy to me.

 

>

> I am really upset by your somewhat fundamentalist attitude. You quite

> bluntly state that my spiritual path is not as worthy af respect as

yours.

> It is an incredibly offensive attitude to take, and clearly comes

from an

> ignorance of other beliefs - I will be very happy to answer

questions about

> my beliefs and practices, but I will not accept this patronising and

> condescending attitude from someone who clearly hasn't got a clue.

 

I never said anything negative about Pagans, are you a witch, warlock

too? I did not know this. With my school work, I sometimes skip

messages because I can't read them all. you guys write too much!

 

I do not consider myself catholic, my children have never been to a

catholic church and the oldest one is seven.

My background and family members are catholic. I also know that they

would feel offended if someone equated what they do with illusions

of david copperfield.

I am sorry if that offends anybody, It was not intentional.

 

I do have a clue about that part of my life, but not about the Magic

that is so important to witches. I have never honestly seen a witch

perform magic. Just Bewitched on TV, which by the way I really liked,

but is no way similar to reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk,

 

What a beautiful site, thank you for sharing. Myself, I go more for

the bargains in prints.

 

www.pyramid.com has a lot of nice offerings and they are more suited

to my budget when on sale.

 

Nikki

 

, " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato@e...>

wrote:

>

> Hi Nikki,

>

> Thanks, that sounds very spiritual and peace loving.

> I had different connotations to the word. I separated the word

Magic

> and Witchcraft.

> The definetion of someone doing magic tricks for money is the one I

> thought that fraggle had used, sorry about the confusion.

>

> I don't think that the word magic, translates well as Witchcraft,

in

> spanish.

> which is the language that I have in my head, being my first.

>

> anyway, I have found the website, for the Witch Art (I am assuming

it

> is Witch art, because my sister in law gave me this artwork for my

> birthday)

> It is really beuatiful, mystical, I have always been attracted to

> these kinds of images.

>

> check it out http://www.kycraft.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

LOL - Now why didn't any of us think of looking it up from the get

go?! Thx Jonnie!

 

Yes, these are better definitions. But much like any religion or

belief, it is up to the individuals interpretations of what

magic/magick means to them.

 

Thank you though, this definately makes it easier!

 

Nikki

 

, Jonnie Hellens

<jonnie_hellens> wrote:

>

> mag·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mjk)

> n.

>

> The art that purports to control or forecast natural events,

effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

>

> The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt

to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.

> The charms, spells, and rituals so used.

>

> The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment.

> A mysterious quality of enchantment: " For me the names of those

men breathed the magic of the past " (Max Beerbohm).

>

> adj.

>

> Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural: " stubborn unlaid

ghost/That breaks his magic chains at curfew time " (John Milton).

> Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or

baffling effects.

> prayer1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prâr)

> n.

>

>

> A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of

worship.

> The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or

another object of worship.

>

> An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of

worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving:

One evening a week, the family would join together in prayer.

> A specially worded form used to address God, a god, or another

object of worship.

> prayers A religious observance in which praying predominates:

morning prayers.

>

> A fervent request: Her prayer for rain was granted at last.

> The thing requested: His safe arrival was their only prayer.

>

> The slightest chance or hope: In a storm the mountain climbers

won't have a prayer.

> Law.

> The request of a complainant, as stated in a complaint or in

equity, that the court grant the aid or relief solicited.

> The section of the complaint or bill that contains this

request.

>

> http://dictionary.reference.com/

>

> Would you say these are accurate definitions? If so, it seems to

me that one definition a person makes a petition for something,

whereas the other in one definition a person tries to control or

make something happen themselves?