Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 LOL! That's one of the few lines I remember. BBJo - Peter Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:59 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women Hi Anna > When I was little (around 8 years old or so) my grandmother told me that I'd better not marry a black man because she was old- > fasioned and didn't think she could accept that. Why she was concerned with who I was marrying when I was 8, I have no idea. It must be because it's late at night, but this brings to mind the Hitchikers Guide to The Galaxy... when Arthur Dent meets the vogons for the first time he says "I wish I had a daughter so I could forbid her to marry a vogon". :-) BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 HI Lynda I never helped mend/service motorbikes when I was little, but when Colin and I got one, before we had a family, I found it great fun, and very interesting to grind valves etc. I really enjoyed it. Jo - Lynda Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:29 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women Good for you! My grandfather (born in 1860) was a different kind of guy. He'd run tramp steamers to the Alaska goldfields, been donkey boss, run a shingle mill. All the he-man, manly man, macho stuff. However, he believed in equality. He taught all us girls how to saw a board, hammer a nail, etc. My dad was the same. All us girls worked on Harleys just about before we were old enough to play with dolls <g> Grampa told us that people would try to "stuff ya in a damn box, now don't you let them." He always told us that there wasn't anything we couldn't do, just things that people wouldn't let us do. He was right! Sad but true. Lynda - Jonnie Hellens Monday, August 08, 2005 4:15 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen. Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't? It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up. I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope.... Jonnielv2breathe wrote: Lynda I remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all. He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women. Kristina In a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U. S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to - Jonnie Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 I disagree Kristina - as I have said in a different email. Maybe the cases you are citing happened because the child saw the parent looking at the 'appropriate' toy. Children are quite sensitive to what is expected of them. Both my children preferred trains and trucks - after all there is a lot more you can do with them. I had a little pram when I was a kid - it was a good place to keep next door's kittens! I wasn't interested in dolls. Actually my favourite pastime right from little was gardening. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:48 AM Re: OT equality of women Peter In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us. Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences. Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks. I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things. ***** I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family. So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field. I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO. Kristina Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 My goodness Kristina. I reckon you do a good job for anti-feminists. You seem to make out that women are twits. The difference is not a line between men and women. There are ambitious men and women, men and women who are not interested in a career, men and women who are lazy devils etc. etc. It is a division of character not sex. Do you think you gained your ideas from your grandma? and if not how have you come to think this way? Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:05 AM Re: Re: Ot equality of women Peter In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 23 Tue, 9 Aug 2005 01:37:38 +0100 "Peter" <metalscarabRe: Re:OT equality of womenHi KristinaUnfortunately I haven't got the time to go into much detail right now, and I would like to have a proper discussion on this, because I think it's a serious issue...However, to give a brief reply.... I am currently studying for an MA in history. I am the *only* male on the course, with 13 women. When I did my A-Level history a number of years ago, it was two men to 23 women. In terms of shere numbers of people interested, my field of work is hugely dominated by women... yet, the majority of the top lecture and research posts are held by men. So, in my field, the inequality is absolutely blatant. Maybe you are right here...I don't know the university environment...although I have known some female professors. I also disagree that men and women are fundamentally different. I have no interest whatsoever in running a major corporation, and I'm pretty sure the same is true for my dad, and pretty much all of my male friends. In reality, there are only a small number of *people*, be they men or women, who want these jobs. There is nothing specifically male about wanting these jobs, but there is something specifically male about getting them! One difference of men and women, IMHO, is that for men, their jobs and what they do is more defining of who they are. Most men, I have observed, feel a natural? inclination to want to provide...more than women do. It's almost as if for men, providing for others, brings them higher self-esteem. Women want to survive, to have enough, but their self-esteem is not contingent on supporting a family. When a man does...it elevates his self-esteem more. So what this has to do with what you said before is that I think, because men's self-esteem is much more hung onto what they do and how much they make...they make more effort in the work place and could be more ambitious overall. That is the reason I think there are less women exec's and in the upper management areas. Women will want to put energy into other aspects of their lives and less into the workplace. Okay, of course this is not all women...but I am saying in general. I onetime read an article of Harvard career women. Out of college they were very, very gung ho on their careers and reached a fairly high level of success. They were ashamed of one thing, though. All of the admitted that they would drop what they were doing to raise a family if they had the choice. They felt it was "wrong" to have this wish and felt embarrassed by it. The article showed their real desires. Gals, I am not saying all women are like this. I am not one of them...but these women were telling us how they really felt and they wanted to be free of the pressure of high powered jobs. I also just wanted to ask you the question (more, hopefully to give you something to think about than to specifically give an answer) as to where you have gained the ideas that you expressed in your post. Personal observation. My sister the stockbroker and another sister the doctor. The stockbroker is one of the few females in her role but she is doing great. None of her friends wanted the same job even though she offered them it. She didn't need a mentor or to feel "more comfortable" to do her job. She just did it. And the other sister, who was a doctor...when she could stop working to be a mom, she did just that and was very happy. I've noticed the men in my life and how important to their sense of self their jobs are and how much money they bring in. In contrast, for women, I've noticed other things to have bearing on their self esteem. I think men and women are very different indeed...but that's a GOOD thing!!! Another difference I've noticed. I think, for women, the condition of the home, how it is decorated and how clean it is, is so important. I think for men it's less so...they could live on a cot and be happy! I have come across those arguments before (and used to agree with them).. but then cottoned on to the fact that they were the arguments being expounded by the mainstream media... now, think about who controls the mainstream media.... Well, we won't be on the same page here. I think the media is both conservative and liberal on different subjects. On the subject of men and women and their relationships, I think the media is more liberal than anything else. I don't recall ever seeing an article about the differences of men and women ever in the paper. And just on a slight aside... I can't help chuckling a little to myself... as a man, I think this is the first time I've ever been in a situation of disagreeing on this issue with a woman!!!! Yeah, that's pretty unique isn't it? BBPeter[This message contained attachments] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 Good point Lynda. Jo - lv2breathe I onetime read an article of Harvard career women. Out of college they were very, very gung ho on their careers and reached a fairly high level of success. They were ashamed of one thing, though. All of the admitted that they would drop what they were doing to raise a family if they had the choice. They felt it was "wrong" to have this wish and felt embarrassed by it. The article showed their real desires. Gals, I am not saying all women are like this. I am not one of them...but these women were telling us how they really felt and they wanted to be free of the pressure of high powered jobs. ***You do know that studies are done by using people that will fulfill the end result that the authors want? If they wanted that result, they may have interviewed 100 women. 75 may have given them an answer they didn't want. They went with the 25 that gave them the answer they wanted. Lynda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 Very true Lynda. Both my children learned how to knit and sew, cook a little, and did some woodwork, electronics etc. My daughter's eyes light up when anything needs wiring. Peter is very capable with this sort of thing, but only as a means to an end. They are both musical and have lovely singing voices. Peter took a degree in history, and eventually Laura did a degree in history with archaeology. Now Peter is doing an MA in history. The differences, and their likenesses, are due to their own interests, not to their gender. Jo - Lynda Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:33 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women How many kids do you have? Were they raised without outside influences? No television, no trips to the toy stores, no relatives bringing the girls dolls and the boys trucks? Did you give your girls trucks and your sons paperdolls? Well, as someone who has raised a couple of dozen kids (mine, ours, orphans, throw away children), I can tell you that it is called imprinting and children who aren't imprinted do not automatically gravitate to pink for girls, blue for boys, dolls for girls, trucks for boys. Yes, *some* girls are more maturnal and gravitate to dolls. And, yes, *some* boys are more into what works and moves and gravitate to trucks. However, because our house has never had gender bias, the boys all ASKED to learn about cooking and sewing and knitting and crochetting. They played with the girls with the dolls. They requested Ken dolls so that there would be *equality* in the dollhouse. The girls have requested, and got I might add, Tonka toys and Hot Wheels. *Some* is the operative word. And, yes, we are blank slates which also includes exactly what we are talking about. People come to who they are from 3 factors, genes, environment AND their own innate self. Any of the three can be the deciding factor which is exactly why pigeon holing "girls do/don't do" and "boys do/don't do" is a fallacy. Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Monday, August 08, 2005 6:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us. Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences. Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks. I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things. ***** I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family. So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field. I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO. Kristina Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 Good point. I shouldn't look at a person and say that he can't multi-task because he's a male or whatever and she can't do this because she's female. It should be based on the person. Each person has their own personal gifts and challenges.earthstrm <nikkimack wrote: Hi Kristina,I know I cannot speak for either Peter or Lynda, but I do not think that they feel women are not equal. I think what they were saying is that women were still not treated as 100% equal.Nikki , lv2breathe@a... wrote:> > Peter and Lynda> > I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in > the US and/or UK.> > As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high > as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the > government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is > something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of > it (and I am grateful). > > I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal???> > Kristina > > > > In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > writes:> > > Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western> country.> > I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively> campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that> women have the vote!Jonnie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 This reminds me of something that happened a couple of years ago. As I mentioned, my DH was raised to believe that ALL work was women's work, so I was laboring over the landscaping and had asked my DS to help. After a few hours of backbreaking labor for both of us, he turns to me and says "Why do I have to do this women's work?!" I'm not sure what my expression looked like, but by his expression I could tell that he knew he had passed a line he never wanted to pass. Lynda <lurine wrote: How many kids do you have? Were they raised without outside influences? No television, no trips to the toy stores, no relatives bringing the girls dolls and the boys trucks? Did you give your girls trucks and your sons paperdolls? Well, as someone who has raised a couple of dozen kids (mine, ours, orphans, throw away children), I can tell you that it is called imprinting and children who aren't imprinted do not automatically gravitate to pink for girls, blue for boys, dolls for girls, trucks for boys. Yes, *some* girls are more maturnal and gravitate to dolls. And, yes, *some* boys are more into what works and moves and gravitate to trucks. However, because our house has never had gender bias, the boys all ASKED to learn about cooking and sewing and knitting and crochetting. They played with the girls with the dolls. They requested Ken dolls so that there would be *equality* in the dollhouse. The girls have requested, and got I might add, Tonka toys and Hot Wheels. *Some* is the operative word. And, yes, we are blank slates which also includes exactly what we are talking about. People come to who they are from 3 factors, genes, environment AND their own innate self. Any of the three can be the deciding factor which is exactly why pigeon holing "girls do/don't do" and "boys do/don't do" is a fallacy. Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Monday, August 08, 2005 6:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us. Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences. Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks. I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things. ***** I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family. So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field. I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO. Kristina Jonnie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 DH is a neat freak. OCD about doing dishes THE minute everyone is done eating. Floors daily. Lynda - Jo Cwazy Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:10 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I must comment - I have one daughter and one son. My daughter doesn't do housework much and her flat is in turmoil. She is happy that way. My son is neat and tidy, everything in order and does his house cleaning often enough for his flat to look nice. I prefer to be tidy, but my husband is untidy. Jo I have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen. Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't? It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up. I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope.... Jonnielv2breathe wrote: Lynda I remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all. He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women. Kristina In a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to - Jonnie Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 Haven't you managed to change him yet? Jo - Jonnie Hellens Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:47 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women This reminds me of something that happened a couple of years ago. As I mentioned, my DH was raised to believe that ALL work was women's work, so I was laboring over the landscaping and had asked my DS to help. After a few hours of backbreaking labor for both of us, he turns to me and says "Why do I have to do this women's work?!" I'm not sure what my expression looked like, but by his expression I could tell that he knew he had passed a line he never wanted to pass. Lynda <lurine wrote: How many kids do you have? Were they raised without outside influences? No television, no trips to the toy stores, no relatives bringing the girls dolls and the boys trucks? Did you give your girls trucks and your sons paperdolls? Well, as someone who has raised a couple of dozen kids (mine, ours, orphans, throw away children), I can tell you that it is called imprinting and children who aren't imprinted do not automatically gravitate to pink for girls, blue for boys, dolls for girls, trucks for boys. Yes, *some* girls are more maturnal and gravitate to dolls. And, yes, *some* boys are more into what works and moves and gravitate to trucks. However, because our house has never had gender bias, the boys all ASKED to learn about cooking and sewing and knitting and crochetting. They played with the girls with the dolls. They requested Ken dolls so that there would be *equality* in the dollhouse. The girls have requested, and got I might add, Tonka toys and Hot Wheels. *Some* is the operative word. And, yes, we are blank slates which also includes exactly what we are talking about. People come to who they are from 3 factors, genes, environment AND their own innate self. Any of the three can be the deciding factor which is exactly why pigeon holing "girls do/don't do" and "boys do/don't do" is a fallacy. Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Monday, August 08, 2005 6:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us. Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences. Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks. I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things. ***** I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family. So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field. I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO. Kristina Jonnie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 That sounds good - as long as he does some of it. Colin will actually do any of the housework I ask him to, and he does all the cooking now - I didn't want anyone thinking him lazy cos he's not - just untidy indoors. Jo - Lynda Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:54 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women DH is a neat freak. OCD about doing dishes THE minute everyone is done eating. Floors daily. Lynda - Jo Cwazy Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:10 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I must comment - I have one daughter and one son. My daughter doesn't do housework much and her flat is in turmoil. She is happy that way. My son is neat and tidy, everything in order and does his house cleaning often enough for his flat to look nice. I prefer to be tidy, but my husband is untidy. Jo I have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen. Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't? It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up. I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope.... Jonnielv2breathe wrote: Lynda I remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all. He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women. Kristina In a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to - Jonnie Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 It is fun. I used to love going with my dad to the races and watching the ones "we" built. Of course, a wreck or one breaking down broke my little heart <g> Lynda - Jo Cwazy Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:23 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women HI Lynda I never helped mend/service motorbikes when I was little, but when Colin and I got one, before we had a family, I found it great fun, and very interesting to grind valves etc. I really enjoyed it. Jo - Lynda Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:29 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women Good for you! My grandfather (born in 1860) was a different kind of guy. He'd run tramp steamers to the Alaska goldfields, been donkey boss, run a shingle mill. All the he-man, manly man, macho stuff. However, he believed in equality. He taught all us girls how to saw a board, hammer a nail, etc. My dad was the same. All us girls worked on Harleys just about before we were old enough to play with dolls <g> Grampa told us that people would try to "stuff ya in a damn box, now don't you let them." He always told us that there wasn't anything we couldn't do, just things that people wouldn't let us do. He was right! Sad but true. Lynda - Jonnie Hellens Monday, August 08, 2005 4:15 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen. Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't? It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up. I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope.... Jonnielv2breathe wrote: Lynda I remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all. He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women. Kristina In a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U. S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to - Jonnie Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2005 I loved dolls when I was little, but I hated unicorns and stickers. I liked to climb trees and explore abandoned barns and when the other girls in my kindergarten class were learning to play hopscotch and jump rope, I would take a red wagon, get a running start, and go flying down the hill in our playground over and over. When I moved to a new town, the girls at my new school thought I was a freak because I didn't how to play hopscotch. I loved to look at pictures of pretty, frilly dresses, but I sure as hell don't remember wearing any. Love, Anna - Jo Cwazy 8/9/2005 3:24:21 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I disagree Kristina - as I have said in a different email. Maybe the cases you are citing happened because the child saw the parent looking at the 'appropriate' toy. Children are quite sensitive to what is expected of them. Both my children preferred trains and trucks - after all there is a lot more you can do with them. I had a little pram when I was a kid - it was a good place to keep next door's kittens! I wasn't interested in dolls. Actually my favourite pastime right from little was gardening. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:48 AM Re: OT equality of women Peter In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us. Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences. Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks. I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things. ***** I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family. So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field. I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO. Kristina Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2005 Hi Peter > > Another difference I've noticed. I think, for women, the condition of > > the > > home, how it is decorated and how clean it is, is so important. I think > > for > > men it's less so...they could live on a cot and be happy! > > Ummm... you should really meet me and my sister if you think this is the > case!!!! I'm pretty sure I'd come out as the woman in your way of looking > at things! So would my hubby. He's the stay-at-home Dad and I am the one who works full-time. Put us in a cleaning and cooking contest and he comes out winner hands down! Not because I " can't " do it, because he is better at it. We figured out a long time ago that it worked out better if I worked outside the house and he worked in. He can make more $ off the books, I can make more and get insurance and 401k. He is a much better cook and he cleans and takes care of everything here. This is somewhat hard on him, being male. He tries not to let it effect his pride and he shouldn't. he has a harder job than I. We both work 70 hours a week minimum and just because he is home all day, doesn't make him any less of a man. Does this mean we are equal, nope. We both have our own qualities about us. I couldn't live on a cot and be happy, but I don't need things quite as clean and organized as he does. LOL > Nope - not a specific article. It's ingrained in everything they print. > It's the underlying assumptions in every sentence and every paragraph. I agree on this as well. It doesn't matter who they are talking about, the tone is different. BB Nikki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2005 I can imagine how upset you were. Jo - Lynda Tuesday, August 09, 2005 11:18 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women It is fun. I used to love going with my dad to the races and watching the ones "we" built. Of course, a wreck or one breaking down broke my little heart <g> Lynda - Jo Cwazy Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:23 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women HI Lynda I never helped mend/service motorbikes when I was little, but when Colin and I got one, before we had a family, I found it great fun, and very interesting to grind valves etc. I really enjoyed it. Jo - Lynda Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:29 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women Good for you! My grandfather (born in 1860) was a different kind of guy. He'd run tramp steamers to the Alaska goldfields, been donkey boss, run a shingle mill. All the he-man, manly man, macho stuff. However, he believed in equality. He taught all us girls how to saw a board, hammer a nail, etc. My dad was the same. All us girls worked on Harleys just about before we were old enough to play with dolls <g> Grampa told us that people would try to "stuff ya in a damn box, now don't you let them." He always told us that there wasn't anything we couldn't do, just things that people wouldn't let us do. He was right! Sad but true. Lynda - Jonnie Hellens Monday, August 08, 2005 4:15 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen. Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't? It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up. I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope.... Jonnielv2breathe wrote: Lynda I remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all. He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women. Kristina In a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U. S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to - Jonnie Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2005 I'd forgotten about climbing trees. I used to like that. I wasn't very good at it - my friend was really good - he used to swing through the trees like an ape! I had a favourite tree at the end of the garden that I used to climb, and sit and watch the world go by - well the cows in the field anyway. I did stop climbing trees when the boy next door felt out of the big oak and we thought he was dead. We went running into his mum (poor woman) yelling 'Ken's dead'! He was okay - just a little concussed, but it was scary. I also loved skipping either on my own or in a group and was very good at it, and loved hopscotch too. My favourite game for a while was free for all netball in the playground. Jo - Anna Blaine Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:37 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women I loved dolls when I was little, but I hated unicorns and stickers. I liked to climb trees and explore abandoned barns and when the other girls in my kindergarten class were learning to play hopscotch and jump rope, I would take a red wagon, get a running start, and go flying down the hill in our playground over and over. When I moved to a new town, the girls at my new school thought I was a freak because I didn't how to play hopscotch. I loved to look at pictures of pretty, frilly dresses, but I sure as hell don't remember wearing any. Love, Anna - Jo Cwazy 8/9/2005 3:24:21 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I disagree Kristina - as I have said in a different email. Maybe the cases you are citing happened because the child saw the parent looking at the 'appropriate' toy. Children are quite sensitive to what is expected of them. Both my children preferred trains and trucks - after all there is a lot more you can do with them. I had a little pram when I was a kid - it was a good place to keep next door's kittens! I wasn't interested in dolls. Actually my favourite pastime right from little was gardening. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:48 AM Re: OT equality of women Peter In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us. Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences. Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks. I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things. ***** I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family. So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field. I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO. Kristina Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2005 The neighborhood where I lived when going to grammar school (Richmond, San Pablo, El Cerrito, towns north of Fraggle) the houses had frontyards with grass then a sidewalk and then a strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street. There was a little box hedge dividing that strip of grass between each house. All us kids had watched National Velvet, so we played steeple chase running up and down that grass strip and jumping those hedges. A miracle that we didn't slam into someone backing out of a garage or pulling in off the street! Lynda - Jo Cwazy Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:36 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women I'd forgotten about climbing trees. I used to like that. I wasn't very good at it - my friend was really good - he used to swing through the trees like an ape! I had a favourite tree at the end of the garden that I used to climb, and sit and watch the world go by - well the cows in the field anyway. I did stop climbing trees when the boy next door felt out of the big oak and we thought he was dead. We went running into his mum (poor woman) yelling 'Ken's dead'! He was okay - just a little concussed, but it was scary. I also loved skipping either on my own or in a group and was very good at it, and loved hopscotch too. My favourite game for a while was free for all netball in the playground. Jo - Anna Blaine Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:37 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women I loved dolls when I was little, but I hated unicorns and stickers. I liked to climb trees and explore abandoned barns and when the other girls in my kindergarten class were learning to play hopscotch and jump rope, I would take a red wagon, get a running start, and go flying down the hill in our playground over and over. When I moved to a new town, the girls at my new school thought I was a freak because I didn't how to play hopscotch. I loved to look at pictures of pretty, frilly dresses, but I sure as hell don't remember wearing any. Love, Anna - Jo Cwazy 8/9/2005 3:24:21 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I disagree Kristina - as I have said in a different email. Maybe the cases you are citing happened because the child saw the parent looking at the 'appropriate' toy. Children are quite sensitive to what is expected of them. Both my children preferred trains and trucks - after all there is a lot more you can do with them. I had a little pram when I was a kid - it was a good place to keep next door's kittens! I wasn't interested in dolls. Actually my favourite pastime right from little was gardening. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:48 AM Re: OT equality of women Peter In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us. Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences. Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks. I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things. ***** I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family. So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field. I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO. Kristina Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release 8/10/05 Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release 8/10/05 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2005 in the late 80's it was all the rage to "hedgedive" around the east bay... run as fast as you could and jump into the biggest bush you could find..worked even better if you jumped off of something into said hedge... Lynda Aug 10, 2005 3:54 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women The neighborhood where I lived when going to grammar school (Richmond, San Pablo, El Cerrito, towns north of Fraggle) the houses had frontyards with grass then a sidewalk and then a strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street. There was a little box hedge dividing that strip of grass between each house. All us kids had watched National Velvet, so we played steeple chase running up and down that grass strip and jumping those hedges. A miracle that we didn't slam into someone backing out of a garage or pulling in off the street! Lynda - Jo Cwazy Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:36 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women I'd forgotten about climbing trees. I used to like that. I wasn't very good at it - my friend was really good - he used to swing through the trees like an ape! I had a favourite tree at the end of the garden that I used to climb, and sit and watch the world go by - well the cows in the field anyway. I did stop climbing trees when the boy next door felt out of the big oak and we thought he was dead. We went running into his mum (poor woman) yelling 'Ken's dead'! He was okay - just a little concussed, but it was scary. I also loved skipping either on my own or in a group and was very good at it, and loved hopscotch too. My favourite game for a while was free for all netball in the playground. Jo - Anna Blaine Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:37 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women I loved dolls when I was little, but I hated unicorns and stickers. I liked to climb trees and explore abandoned barns and when the other girls in my kindergarten class were learning to play hopscotch and jump rope, I would take a red wagon, get a running start, and go flying down the hill in our playground over and over. When I moved to a new town, the girls at my new school thought I was a freak because I didn't how to play hopscotch. I loved to look at pictures of pretty, frilly dresses, but I sure as hell don't remember wearing any. Love, Anna - Jo Cwazy 8/9/2005 3:24:21 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I disagree Kristina - as I have said in a different email. Maybe the cases you are citing happened because the child saw the parent looking at the 'appropriate' toy. Children are quite sensitive to what is expected of them. Both my children preferred trains and trucks - after all there is a lot more you can do with them. I had a little pram when I was a kid - it was a good place to keep next door's kittens! I wasn't interested in dolls. Actually my favourite pastime right from little was gardening. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:48 AM Re: OT equality of women Peter In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us. Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences. Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks. I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things. ***** I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family. So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field. I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO. Kristina Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release 8/10/05 To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2005 LOL - you don't think of those things when you are young though. Jo - Lynda Wednesday, August 10, 2005 8:54 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women The neighborhood where I lived when going to grammar school (Richmond, San Pablo, El Cerrito, towns north of Fraggle) the houses had frontyards with grass then a sidewalk and then a strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street. There was a little box hedge dividing that strip of grass between each house. All us kids had watched National Velvet, so we played steeple chase running up and down that grass strip and jumping those hedges. A miracle that we didn't slam into someone backing out of a garage or pulling in off the street! Lynda - Jo Cwazy Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:36 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women I'd forgotten about climbing trees. I used to like that. I wasn't very good at it - my friend was really good - he used to swing through the trees like an ape! I had a favourite tree at the end of the garden that I used to climb, and sit and watch the world go by - well the cows in the field anyway. I did stop climbing trees when the boy next door felt out of the big oak and we thought he was dead. We went running into his mum (poor woman) yelling 'Ken's dead'! He was okay - just a little concussed, but it was scary. I also loved skipping either on my own or in a group and was very good at it, and loved hopscotch too. My favourite game for a while was free for all netball in the playground. Jo - Anna Blaine Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:37 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women I loved dolls when I was little, but I hated unicorns and stickers. I liked to climb trees and explore abandoned barns and when the other girls in my kindergarten class were learning to play hopscotch and jump rope, I would take a red wagon, get a running start, and go flying down the hill in our playground over and over. When I moved to a new town, the girls at my new school thought I was a freak because I didn't how to play hopscotch. I loved to look at pictures of pretty, frilly dresses, but I sure as hell don't remember wearing any. Love, Anna - Jo Cwazy 8/9/2005 3:24:21 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I disagree Kristina - as I have said in a different email. Maybe the cases you are citing happened because the child saw the parent looking at the 'appropriate' toy. Children are quite sensitive to what is expected of them. Both my children preferred trains and trucks - after all there is a lot more you can do with them. I had a little pram when I was a kid - it was a good place to keep next door's kittens! I wasn't interested in dolls. Actually my favourite pastime right from little was gardening. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:48 AM Re: OT equality of women Peter In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us. Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences. Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks. I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things. ***** I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family. So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field. I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO. Kristina Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release 8/10/05 Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release 8/10/05 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2005 I've just come to the conclusion that American kids are mad. Jo - fraggle Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:06 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women in the late 80's it was all the rage to "hedgedive" around the east bay... run as fast as you could and jump into the biggest bush you could find..worked even better if you jumped off of something into said hedge... Lynda Aug 10, 2005 3:54 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women The neighborhood where I lived when going to grammar school (Richmond, San Pablo, El Cerrito, towns north of Fraggle) the houses had frontyards with grass then a sidewalk and then a strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street. There was a little box hedge dividing that strip of grass between each house. All us kids had watched National Velvet, so we played steeple chase running up and down that grass strip and jumping those hedges. A miracle that we didn't slam into someone backing out of a garage or pulling in off the street! Lynda - Jo Cwazy Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:36 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women I'd forgotten about climbing trees. I used to like that. I wasn't very good at it - my friend was really good - he used to swing through the trees like an ape! I had a favourite tree at the end of the garden that I used to climb, and sit and watch the world go by - well the cows in the field anyway. I did stop climbing trees when the boy next door felt out of the big oak and we thought he was dead. We went running into his mum (poor woman) yelling 'Ken's dead'! He was okay - just a little concussed, but it was scary. I also loved skipping either on my own or in a group and was very good at it, and loved hopscotch too. My favourite game for a while was free for all netball in the playground. Jo - Anna Blaine Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:37 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women I loved dolls when I was little, but I hated unicorns and stickers. I liked to climb trees and explore abandoned barns and when the other girls in my kindergarten class were learning to play hopscotch and jump rope, I would take a red wagon, get a running start, and go flying down the hill in our playground over and over. When I moved to a new town, the girls at my new school thought I was a freak because I didn't how to play hopscotch. I loved to look at pictures of pretty, frilly dresses, but I sure as hell don't remember wearing any. Love, Anna - Jo Cwazy 8/9/2005 3:24:21 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I disagree Kristina - as I have said in a different email. Maybe the cases you are citing happened because the child saw the parent looking at the 'appropriate' toy. Children are quite sensitive to what is expected of them. Both my children preferred trains and trucks - after all there is a lot more you can do with them. I had a little pram when I was a kid - it was a good place to keep next door's kittens! I wasn't interested in dolls. Actually my favourite pastime right from little was gardening. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:48 AM Re: OT equality of women Peter In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us. Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences. Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks. I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things. ***** I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family. So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field. I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO. Kristina Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release 8/10/05 To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2005 kids.....heck..i was in my 20's hahahahhahahahahaha you brits are obviously too tepid Jo Cwazy Aug 10, 2005 4:57 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I've just come to the conclusion that American kids are mad. Jo - fraggle Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:06 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women in the late 80's it was all the rage to "hedgedive" around the east bay... run as fast as you could and jump into the biggest bush you could find..worked even better if you jumped off of something into said hedge... Lynda Aug 10, 2005 3:54 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women The neighborhood where I lived when going to grammar school (Richmond, San Pablo, El Cerrito, towns north of Fraggle) the houses had frontyards with grass then a sidewalk and then a strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street. There was a little box hedge dividing that strip of grass between each house. All us kids had watched National Velvet, so we played steeple chase running up and down that grass strip and jumping those hedges. A miracle that we didn't slam into someone backing out of a garage or pulling in off the street! Lynda - Jo Cwazy Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:36 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women I'd forgotten about climbing trees. I used to like that. I wasn't very good at it - my friend was really good - he used to swing through the trees like an ape! I had a favourite tree at the end of the garden that I used to climb, and sit and watch the world go by - well the cows in the field anyway. I did stop climbing trees when the boy next door felt out of the big oak and we thought he was dead. We went running into his mum (poor woman) yelling 'Ken's dead'! He was okay - just a little concussed, but it was scary. I also loved skipping either on my own or in a group and was very good at it, and loved hopscotch too. My favourite game for a while was free for all netball in the playground. Jo - Anna Blaine Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:37 AM Re: Re: OT equality of women I loved dolls when I was little, but I hated unicorns and stickers. I liked to climb trees and explore abandoned barns and when the other girls in my kindergarten class were learning to play hopscotch and jump rope, I would take a red wagon, get a running start, and go flying down the hill in our playground over and over. When I moved to a new town, the girls at my new school thought I was a freak because I didn't how to play hopscotch. I loved to look at pictures of pretty, frilly dresses, but I sure as hell don't remember wearing any. Love, Anna - Jo Cwazy 8/9/2005 3:24:21 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women I disagree Kristina - as I have said in a different email. Maybe the cases you are citing happened because the child saw the parent looking at the 'appropriate' toy. Children are quite sensitive to what is expected of them. Both my children preferred trains and trucks - after all there is a lot more you can do with them. I had a little pram when I was a kid - it was a good place to keep next door's kittens! I wasn't interested in dolls. Actually my favourite pastime right from little was gardening. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:48 AM Re: OT equality of women Peter In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us. Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences. Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks. I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things. ***** I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family. So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field. I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO. Kristina Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release 8/10/05 To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2005 Well that just proves you were mad then :-) Jo , fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote: > kids.....heck..i was in my 20's hahahahhahahahahaha you brits are obviously too tepid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2005 ROFL!!! BB Nikki , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > I've just come to the conclusion that American kids are mad. > > Jo > - > fraggle > > Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:06 PM > Re: Re: OT equality of women > > > in the late 80's it was all the rage to " hedgedive " around the east bay... > run as fast as you could and jump into the biggest bush you could find..worked even better if you jumped off of something into said hedge... > > > > > > Lynda > Aug 10, 2005 3:54 PM > > Re: Re: OT equality of women > > > The neighborhood where I lived when going to grammar school (Richmond, San Pablo, El Cerrito, towns north of Fraggle) the houses had frontyards with grass then a sidewalk and then a strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street. There was a little box hedge dividing that strip of grass between each house. > > All us kids had watched National Velvet, so we played steeple chase running up and down that grass strip and jumping those hedges. A miracle that we didn't slam into someone backing out of a garage or pulling in off the street! > > Lynda > - > Jo Cwazy > > Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:36 AM > Re: Re: OT equality of women > > > I'd forgotten about climbing trees. I used to like that. I wasn't very good at it - my friend was really good - he used to swing through the trees like an ape! I had a favourite tree at the end of the garden that I used to climb, and sit and watch the world go by - well the cows in the field anyway. I did stop climbing trees when the boy next door felt out of the big oak and we thought he was dead. We went running into his mum (poor woman) yelling 'Ken's dead'! He was okay - just a little concussed, but it was scary. > > I also loved skipping either on my own or in a group and was very good at it, and loved hopscotch too. My favourite game for a while was free for all netball in the playground. > > Jo > - > Anna Blaine > > Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:37 AM > Re: Re: OT equality of women > > > I loved dolls when I was little, but I hated unicorns and stickers. I liked to climb trees and explore abandoned barns and when the other girls in my kindergarten class were learning to play hopscotch and jump rope, I would take a red wagon, get a running start, and go flying down the hill in our playground over and over. When I moved to a new town, the girls at my new school thought I was a freak because I didn't how to play hopscotch. I loved to look at pictures of pretty, frilly dresses, but I sure as hell don't remember wearing any. > > Love, > Anna > > > - > Jo Cwazy > > 8/9/2005 3:24:21 PM > Re: Re: OT equality of women > > > I disagree Kristina - as I have said in a different email. Maybe the cases you are citing happened because the child saw the parent looking at the 'appropriate' toy. Children are quite sensitive to what is expected of them. Both my children preferred trains and trucks - after all there is a lot more you can do with them. > > I had a little pram when I was a kid - it was a good place to keep next door's kittens! I wasn't interested in dolls. Actually my favourite pastime right from little was gardening. > > Jo > - > lv2breathe@a... > > Cc: Lv2breathe@a... > Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:48 AM > Re: OT equality of women > > > Peter > > In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: > As far as I can tell, the only " obvious differences " between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us. > > Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences. > > Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks. > > I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things. > > ***** > > I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family. > > So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment " gave " me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field. > > I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO. > > > Kristina > > > > > > - ------- > > > > > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release 8/10/05 > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
