OT equality of women

[Guest guest]

Peter and Lynda

 

I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK.

 

As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful).

 

I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal???

 

Kristina

 

 

 

In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Westerncountry.I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement activelycampaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact thatwomen have the vote!

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think in most ways women are equal in the UK except for wages (and

that makes quite a difference to how one can live and the choices one

is able to make). I cannot remember the figures but last year there

was a report by the TUC, I believe, and the average women's wage (for

the same level of job) is something like 25% lower than that for men.

 

Jo

 

, lv2breathe@a... wrote:

>

> Peter and Lynda

>

> I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am

assuming, in

> the US and/or UK.

>

> As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go

as high

> as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or

the

> government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the

world this is

> something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me

have taken care of

> it (and I am grateful).

>

> I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal???

>

> Kristina

>

>

>

> In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

> writes:

>

>

> Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every

other Western

> country.

>

> I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement

actively

> campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact

that

> women have the vote!

[Guest guest]

Lynda

 

I remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all.

 

He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women.

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to -

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Kristina

 

> As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws

> or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the

> sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful).

 

I don't know about the US, but in the UK there is still a clear inequality in terms of employment opportunities. 99% of top business executives are men, there is a disproportionate amount of male to female MPs, councillors, etc., and in general, women are paid something like 10% less than men for equivalent jobs. It's strange, because there is supposed to be equality legislation to prevent this, but it simply doesn't have an effect.

 

Of course, we have improved a lot since the 1970s, and that should be recognised, but there's still a way to go before we have genuine equality in the UK.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Can corroborate that. IN fact the difference is closer to 30% than 10%. There is also a very "robust" glass ceiling. Also, to be crude, women have to put up with a lot more mistreatment than men, and it's not much fun for them either.

 

Mike (happy to be freelance, even if it means I work all the time....)

 

 

On Behalf Of Peter08 August 2005 18:13 Subject: Re: Re: OT equality of women

 

Hi Kristina

 

> As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws

> or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the

> sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful).

 

I don't know about the US, but in the UK there is still a clear inequality in terms of employment opportunities. 99% of top business executives are men, there is a disproportionate amount of male to female MPs, councillors, etc., and in general, women are paid something like 10% less than men for equivalent jobs. It's strange, because there is supposed to be equality legislation to prevent this, but it simply doesn't have an effect.

 

Of course, we have improved a lot since the 1970s, and that should be recognised, but there's still a way to go before we have genuine equality in the UK.

 

BB

PeterTo send an email to -

[Guest guest]

I think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.

 

Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.

 

Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)

 

Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.

 

Lynda

 

 

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM

Re: OT equality of women

 

 

Peter and Lynda

 

I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK.

 

As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful).

 

I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal???

 

Kristina

 

 

 

In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Westerncountry.I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement activelycampaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact thatwomen have the vote!

 

 

[Guest guest]

I must just say that where I work it doesn't seem to matter if you are male or female. My boss is male, his boss is female, hers is female. Admittedly the Director General is a man, but the one before, who retired, was a woman. I also know (I'm on the union committee) for a fact that the wages are equal too. It's a shame all places are not like that.

 

Jo

 

-

Lynda

Monday, August 08, 2005 6:50 PM

Re: Re: OT equality of women

 

I think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.

 

Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.

 

Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)

 

Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.

 

Lynda

 

 

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM

Re: OT equality of women

 

 

Peter and Lynda

 

I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK.

 

As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful).

 

I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal???

 

Kristina

 

 

 

In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Westerncountry.I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement activelycampaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact thatwomen have the vote!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Peter

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us.

Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences.

 

Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks.

 

I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things.

 

*****

 

I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family.

 

So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field.

 

I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO.

 

 

Kristina

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Peter

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 23 Tue, 9 Aug 2005 01:37:38 +0100 "Peter" <metalscarabRe: Re:OT equality of womenHi KristinaUnfortunately I haven't got the time to go into much detail right now, and I would like to have a proper discussion on this, because I think it's a serious issue...However, to give a brief reply.... I am currently studying for an MA in history. I am the *only* male on the course, with 13 women. When I did my A-Level history a number of years ago, it was two men to 23 women. In terms of shere numbers of people interested, my field of work is hugely dominated by women... yet, the majority of the top lecture and research posts are held by men. So, in my field, the inequality is absolutely blatant.

Maybe you are right here...I don't know the university environment...although I have known some female professors.

I also disagree that men and women are fundamentally different. I have no interest whatsoever in running a major corporation, and I'm pretty sure the same is true for my dad, and pretty much all of my male friends. In reality, there are only a small number of *people*, be they men or women, who want these jobs. There is nothing specifically male about wanting these jobs, but there is something specifically male about getting them!

One difference of men and women, IMHO, is that for men, their jobs and what they do is more defining of who they are. Most men, I have observed, feel a natural? inclination to want to provide...more than women do. It's almost as if for men, providing for others, brings them higher self-esteem. Women want to survive, to have enough, but their self-esteem is not contingent on supporting a family. When a man does...it elevates his self-esteem more.

 

So what this has to do with what you said before is that I think, because men's self-esteem is much more hung onto what they do and how much they make...they make more effort in the work place and could be more ambitious overall. That is the reason I think there are less women exec's and in the upper management areas. Women will want to put energy into other aspects of their lives and less into the workplace. Okay, of course this is not all women...but I am saying in general.

 

I onetime read an article of Harvard career women. Out of college they were very, very gung ho on their careers and reached a fairly high level of success. They were ashamed of one thing, though. All of the admitted that they would drop what they were doing to raise a family if they had the choice. They felt it was "wrong" to have this wish and felt embarrassed by it. The article showed their real desires. Gals, I am not saying all women are like this. I am not one of them...but these women were telling us how they really felt and they wanted to be free of the pressure of high powered jobs.

I also just wanted to ask you the question (more, hopefully to give you something to think about than to specifically give an answer) as to where you have gained the ideas that you expressed in your post.

Personal observation. My sister the stockbroker and another sister the doctor. The stockbroker is one of the few females in her role but she is doing great. None of her friends wanted the same job even though she offered them it. She didn't need a mentor or to feel "more comfortable" to do her job. She just did it. And the other sister, who was a doctor...when she could stop working to be a mom, she did just that and was very happy.

 

I've noticed the men in my life and how important to their sense of self their jobs are and how much money they bring in. In contrast, for women, I've noticed other things to have bearing on their self esteem. I think men and women are very different indeed...but that's a GOOD thing!!!

 

Another difference I've noticed. I think, for women, the condition of the home, how it is decorated and how clean it is, is so important. I think for men it's less so...they could live on a cot and be happy!

I have come across those arguments before (and used to agree with them).. but then cottoned on to the fact that they were the arguments being expounded by the mainstream media... now, think about who controls the mainstream media....

Well, we won't be on the same page here. I think the media is both conservative and liberal on different subjects. On the subject of men and women and their relationships, I think the media is more liberal than anything else. I don't recall ever seeing an article about the differences of men and women ever in the paper.

And just on a slight aside... I can't help chuckling a little to myself... as a man, I think this is the first time I've ever been in a situation of disagreeing on this issue with a woman!!!!

Yeah, that's pretty unique isn't it?

BBPeter[This message contained attachments]

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen.

 

Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't?

 

It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up.

 

I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope....

 

Jonnielv2breathe wrote:

 

 

 

Lynda

 

I remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all.

 

He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women.

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S.

(state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the

problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to -

 

Jonnie

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda

 

> I think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.

 

We actually agree on something!!!! 'Scuse me while I just check for low-flying pigs :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

"My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl "

 

When I was little (around 8 years old or so) my grandmother told me that I'd better not marry a black man because she was old-fasioned and didn't think she could accept that. Why she was concerned with who I was marrying when I was 8, I have no idea. But anyway, being little and totally honest and really not meaning anything by it, I said "Don't worry grandma, I'm sure you'll be dead by the time I get married."

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

-

Jonnie Hellens

 

8/8/2005 5:15:50 PM

Re: Re: OT equality of women

 

I have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen.

 

Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't?

 

It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up.

 

I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope....

 

Jonnielv2breathe wrote:

 

 

 

Lynda

 

I remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all.

 

He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women.

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to -

 

Jonnie

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike

 

> Can corroborate that. IN fact the difference is closer to 30% than 10%. There is also a very "robust" glass ceiling. Also, to be

> crude, women have to put up with a lot more mistreatment than men, and it's not much fun for them either.

 

Thanks for the more accurate figure - I was trying to remember the details from a leaflet I saw a couple of months ago, and was erring on the side of understatement rather than overstatement :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Kristina

 

> He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted

> to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious

> differences in interests in men and women.

 

As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us.

 

Damn - I wish I had more time to go into this properly!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Anna

 

> When I was little (around 8 years old or so) my grandmother told me that I'd better not marry a black man because she was old-

> fasioned and didn't think she could accept that. Why she was concerned with who I was marrying when I was 8, I have no idea.

 

It must be because it's late at night, but this brings to mind the Hitchikers Guide to The Galaxy... when Arthur Dent meets the vogons for the first time he says "I wish I had a daughter so I could forbid her to marry a vogon". :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

That's not what he said, that is how he explained what he said later when he got all the flack. That is after saying that it was a private conference and that what he said shouldn't have been made public. Ah, like that made it o.k.

 

He was talking about biology and said "that innate sexual differences" are what keep women down and that a woman's brain is not made for doing math.

 

That is the same thing that teachers, at least in the U.S., have been pounding into young women for decades. You can't do math, you can't do science, you are women. If a women happens to do something it is always because she is an exception OR because some man helped her, in their reasoning.

 

And, before you disagree, first answer whether or not you have worked in the education field. I have. Private schools, federally granted schools, public schools and community colleges. For the last 10 or so years public schools have had to have inservices on NOT discriminating in the math and science classes because of gender. Some teachers have been brought up on charges. So, yes in deedy, that is what was going on and probably still does in some areas of the country.

 

Lynda

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Monday, August 08, 2005 12:29 PM

Re: OT equality of women

 

 

Lynda

 

I remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all.

 

He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women.

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to -

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release 8/4/05

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05

[Guest guest]

Good for you! My grandfather (born in 1860) was a different kind of guy. He'd run tramp steamers to the Alaska goldfields, been donkey boss, run a shingle mill. All the he-man, manly man, macho stuff. However, he believed in equality. He taught all us girls how to saw a board, hammer a nail, etc. My dad was the same. All us girls worked on Harleys just about before we were old enough to play with dolls <g>

 

Grampa told us that people would try to "stuff ya in a damn box, now don't you let them." He always told us that there wasn't anything we couldn't do, just things that people wouldn't let us do.

 

He was right! Sad but true.

 

Lynda

 

-

Jonnie Hellens

Monday, August 08, 2005 4:15 PM

Re: Re: OT equality of women

 

I have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen.

 

Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't?

 

It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up.

 

I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope....

 

Jonnielv2breathe wrote:

 

 

 

Lynda

 

I remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all.

 

He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women.

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U. S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to -

 

Jonnie

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05

[Guest guest]

oh geez.....is monsanto at it again? Peter Aug 8, 2005 5:02 PM Re: Re: OT equality of women

 

Hi Lynda

 

> I think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.

 

We actually agree on something!!!! 'Scuse me while I just check for low-flying pigs :-)

 

BB

PeterTo send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Kristina,

 

I know I cannot speak for either Peter or Lynda, but I do not think

that they feel women are not equal. I think what they were saying is

that women were still not treated as 100% equal.

 

Nikki

 

 

, lv2breathe@a... wrote:

>

> Peter and Lynda

>

> I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am

assuming, in

> the US and/or UK.

>

> As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can

go as high

> as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or

the

> government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the

world this is

> something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me

have taken care of

> it (and I am grateful).

>

> I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal???

>

> Kristina

>

>

>

> In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

> writes:

>

>

> Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every

other Western

> country.

>

> I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement

actively

> campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the

fact that

> women have the vote!

[Guest guest]

How many kids do you have? Were they raised without outside influences? No television, no trips to the toy stores, no relatives bringing the girls dolls and the boys trucks? Did you give your girls trucks and your sons paperdolls?

 

Well, as someone who has raised a couple of dozen kids (mine, ours, orphans, throw away children), I can tell you that it is called imprinting and children who aren't imprinted do not automatically gravitate to pink for girls, blue for boys, dolls for girls, trucks for boys.

 

Yes, *some* girls are more maturnal and gravitate to dolls. And, yes, *some* boys are more into what works and moves and gravitate to trucks.

 

However, because our house has never had gender bias, the boys all ASKED to learn about cooking and sewing and knitting and crochetting. They played with the girls with the dolls. They requested Ken dolls so that there would be *equality* in the dollhouse. The girls have requested, and got I might add, Tonka toys and Hot Wheels.

 

*Some* is the operative word.

 

And, yes, we are blank slates which also includes exactly what we are talking about. People come to who they are from 3 factors, genes, environment AND their own innate self. Any of the three can be the deciding factor which is exactly why pigeon holing "girls do/don't do" and "boys do/don't do" is a fallacy.

 

Lynda

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Monday, August 08, 2005 6:48 PM

Re: OT equality of women

 

Peter

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

As far as I can tell, the only "obvious differences" between men and women are genitals. The rest is to do with how we are brought up by society, and what expectations society places on us.

Really? That's interesting. I see and feel many differences.

 

Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to them. Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and clothes or trains and trucks.

 

I think boys and girls naturally gravitate to different things.

 

*****

 

I doubt the environment theory also. I'll cite a personal example. I grew up in a family that valued science, tennis, sports and a college education. Doctors were big in my family.

 

So why is it, that I grew up with totally different interests? I am not particularly interested in science or sports at all...pretty much the exact opposite even though no one in my home environment "gave" me these interests. No outside individuals gave me these interests either. They came from within me. My interests, in my family's view, or from right field.

 

I think we are more than blank slates at birth...IMHO.

 

 

Kristina

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

-

 

lv2breathe

 

I onetime read an article of Harvard career women. Out of college they were very, very gung ho on their careers and reached a fairly high level of success. They were ashamed of one thing, though. All of the admitted that they would drop what they were doing to raise a family if they had the choice. They felt it was "wrong" to have this wish and felt embarrassed by it. The article showed their real desires. Gals, I am not saying all women are like this. I am not one of them...but these women were telling us how they really felt and they wanted to be free of the pressure of high powered jobs.

 

***You do know that studies are done by using people that will fulfill the end result that the authors want? If they wanted that result, they may have interviewed 100 women. 75 may have given them an answer they didn't want. They went with the 25 that gave them the answer they wanted.

 

Lynda

[Guest guest]

Hi Kristina

 

> Ask someone who has children and ask them if their son picked trucks and

> trains because it was handed to him or because he naturally gravitated to

> them.

> Then ask, if they have a daughter, if she was more attracted to dolls and

> clothes or trains and trucks.

 

Then ask whether they saw other children doing the same thing beforehand,

and whether there is subconscious programming from parents about whether

someone is " male " or " female " even before birth. I recently saw a very

interesting TV programme on someone who, due to a botched operation when

they were a few days old, and subsequent cover up, they were brought up as

a girl when they had been born as a boy. In all ways, except for their

genes, they were female, because that was how they had been programmed by

their parents and by society.

 

No-one is brought up free from gender-stereotyping all around them - it's

in virtually every word we say.. from the moment of birth children are

referred to as " he " or " she " , and are associated in all sorts of subtle

ways with others of the same gender. Of course you can cite examples of

women being " feminine " and men being " butch " , but you can equally cite

examples the other way round. Fact is, people are people, and every one of

us is different. Treating people differently because of their gender is as

ludicrous as treating people differently because of their hair colour.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Kristina

 

> Maybe you are right here...I don't know the university

> environment...although I have known some female professors.

 

" Some female professors " does not equate to equality! It seems a rather

unsubstantial comment when we are trying to discuss a wide ranging

situation.

 

> One difference of men and women, IMHO, is that for men, their jobs and

> what

> they do is more defining of who they are. Most men, I have observed, feel

> a

> natural? inclination to want to provide...more than women do. It's almost

> as

> if for men, providing for others, brings them higher self-esteem. Women

> want

> to survive, to have enough, but their self-esteem is not contingent on

> supporting a family. When a man does...it elevates his self-esteem more.

 

In our society. In matriachal societies, it is the other way around. This

is nurture, not nature.

 

> Another difference I've noticed. I think, for women, the condition of

> the

> home, how it is decorated and how clean it is, is so important. I think

> for

> men it's less so...they could live on a cot and be happy!

 

Ummm... you should really meet me and my sister if you think this is the

case!!!! I'm pretty sure I'd come out as the woman in your way of looking

at things!

 

> Well, we won't be on the same page here. I think the media is both

> conservative and liberal on different subjects. On the subject of men and

> women and

> their relationships, I think the media is more liberal than anything

> else. I

> don't recall ever seeing an article about the differences of men and

> women

> ever in the paper.

 

Nope - not a specific article. It's ingrained in everything they print.

It's the underlying assumptions in every sentence and every paragraph.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

obviously never met any of my significant others either...

nuthin like goin over someone's haus and not being t oget a drink of water

because the glass has no room to fit under the faucet because of all the dishes

in the sink

 

 

metalscarab

Aug 9, 2005 10:25 AM

 

Re: Re: Re: Ot equality of women

 

 

 

> Another difference I've noticed. I think, for women, the condition of

> the

> home, how it is decorated and how clean it is, is so important. I think

> for

> men it's less so...they could live on a cot and be happy!

 

Ummm... you should really meet me and my sister if you think this is the

case!!!! I'm pretty sure I'd come out as the woman in your way of looking

at things!

 

> Well, we won't be on the same page here. I think the media is both

> conservative and liberal on different subjects. On the subject of men and

> women and

> their relationships, I think the media is more liberal than anything

> else. I

> don't recall ever seeing an article about the differences of men and

> women

> ever in the paper.

 

Nope - not a specific article. It's ingrained in everything they print.

It's the underlying assumptions in every sentence and every paragraph.

 

BB

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

I must comment - I have one daughter and one son. My daughter doesn't do housework much and her flat is in turmoil. She is happy that way. My son is neat and tidy, everything in order and does his house cleaning often enough for his flat to look nice. I prefer to be tidy, but my husband is untidy.

 

Jo

 

 

I have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen.

 

Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't?

 

It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up.

 

I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope....

 

Jonnielv2breathe wrote:

 

 

 

Lynda

 

I remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all.

 

He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women.

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to -

 

Jonnie