Guest guest Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 The legacy of Agent Orange Vietnam doctors believe the effects of Agent Orange are ongoing Thirty years after hostilities ended between the US and Vietnam, relations remain strained by one of America's most notorious actions, the use of the chemical Agent Orange. The Vietnamese believe that the powerful weed killer - the use of which was intended to destroy crops and jungle providing cover for the Vietcong - is responsible for massively high instances of genetic defects in areas that were sprayed. Nguyen Trong Nhan, from the Vietnam Association Of Victims Of Agent Orange and a former president of Vietnamese Red Cross, believes the use of Agent Orange was a " war crime " . He told BBC World Service's One Planet programme that Vietnam's poverty was a direct result of the use of Agent Orange. " They are the poorest and the most vulnerable people - and that is why Vietnam is a very poor country, " he said. " We help the people who are victims of the Agent Orange and the dioxins, but the capacity of our government is very limited. " Contaminated areas Campaigners such as Mr Nguyen believe they have been left with little choice but to resort to legal action, and in 2004 took the chemical companies that produced Agent Orange to court in the US. But last month an American Federal District Judge dismissed the case on the grounds that use of the defoliant did not violate international law at the time. An appeal has been lodged against this decision. The US sprayed 80m litres of poisonous chemicals during Operation Ranchhand. There were many Agents used, including Pink, Green and White, but Agent Orange was used the most - 45m litres sprayed over a 10th of Vietnam. It was also used - mostly in secret - over parts of neighbouring Cambodia. It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of people in Vietnam Andrew Wells-Dang, Fund for Reconciliation and Development But Agent Orange in particular was laced with dioxins - extremely toxic to humans. Dioxins accumulate in the body to cause cancers. Anyone eating or drinking in contaminated areas then receives an even higher dose. Spraying stopped in 1971, after more than 6,000 missions and growing public disquiet. But the ground in many areas of Vietnam remains contaminated by Agent Orange. A number of people in these areas believe they are victims of the chemical. One woman said the herbicide had caused a skin disease which gave her " great suffering " . " If the US and Vietnamese governments could care for people like me, that would be comforting, " she added. Another man said his legs have " wasted away " as a result of Agent Orange. " When I realise I have been contaminated with poisonous chemicals, and the US government hasn't done anything to help, I feel very sad, and it makes me cry, " he added. " Now I always get severe headaches. My first child has just died - he had physical deformities. The second one is having headaches like me. " Cancers and disease Food and supplies are still delivered to victims of Agent Orange. Many were not born when the US sprayed the area - but there is strong evidence the chemicals are still having an effect. A disproportionately large number of children in the areas affected are born with defects, both mental and physical. Many are highly susceptible to cancers and disease. And Vietnamese doctors are convinced Agent Orange is to blame. Agent Orange was intended to defoliate the jungle " This is due to the US sprayings, " said Dr Hong Tien Dong, village doctor who has lived in the area all his life. " Before, in this area, the environment was quite clean. " Now it has become like this. " In the late 1990s, a Canadian study tested soil, pond water, fish and duck tissue, as well as human blood samples, and found dangerously high levels of dioxin travelling up the food chain to humans. Dioxin concentrations have been found to be 13 times higher than average in the soil of affected areas, and, in human fat tissue, 20 times as high. A Japanese study, comparing areas sprayed with those that were not, found children were three times more likely to be born with cleft palates, or extra fingers and toes. There are eight times as many hernias in such children, and three times as many born with mental disabilities. In 2001, scientists found that people living in an Agent Orange " hotspot " at Binh-Hoa near Ho Chi Minh City have 200 times the background amount of dioxin in their bloodstreams. Humanitarian opportunity America " normalised " relations with Vietnam 10 years ago, and the country has now embraced the free market. No representative of the US government in Vietnam would talk to One Planet about Agent Orange. However, in 1984, chemical companies that manufactured the Agent paid $180m into a fund for United States veterans following a lawsuit. They did not, however, admit any wrongdoing. Meanwhile in 2004 - at the same time Mr Nguyen first brought his lawsuit - a joint-US-Vietnamese project to examine the long-term genetic impact of Agent Orange was cancelled. US Vietnam veterans won money from Agent Orange makers in 1984 Some Americans in Vietnam fear that the legacy of Agent Orange is overshadowing the new friendship between the two countries. " Many of the other obstacles have been dealt with - trade and exchange and diplomatic relations, " said Andrew Wells-Dang, from the Fund For Reconciliation And Development - an American organisation set up in the 1980s with the aim of improving relations between the countries. He pointed out that the US has provided funding for clearing mines that it dropped on Vietnam during the war. " We think the US should do the same with Agent Orange, " he added. " It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of people in Vietnam. " We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the countries. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Anyone ever see any explanation of why they added to 2-4-D instead of just using it by itself? As to the question, " We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the countries, " just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going to get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about more money. Always more money. Personally, I'm being taxed to death and am tired of all the hands out and tired of our politicians making stupid decisions that keep taking more and more money out of my pocket. Cold as it may sound, I think it is time we started spending some of that money here at home! We have elderly doing without food so they can buy medication. We have folks on the rez who die from the cold every year because they don't even have heat. The list is long and I'm tired of all the money going to Israel and a bunch of other stupid things! If they want money then go to the world court. Or hire a GOOD lawyer and do a class action in the name of the children against the manufacturer. Put the idiots out of business but stop expecting me, as a taxpayer, to fund all this stuff. Lynda - heartwerk <heartwork Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:37 PM BBC website - Agent Orange > The legacy of Agent Orange > > Vietnam doctors believe the effects of Agent Orange are ongoing > Thirty years after hostilities ended between the US and Vietnam, > relations remain strained by one of America's most notorious actions, > the use of the chemical Agent Orange. > The Vietnamese believe that the powerful weed killer - the use of > which was intended to destroy crops and jungle providing cover for > the Vietcong - is responsible for massively high instances of genetic > defects in areas that were sprayed. > > Nguyen Trong Nhan, from the Vietnam Association Of Victims Of Agent > Orange and a former president of Vietnamese Red Cross, believes the > use of Agent Orange was a " war crime " . > > He told BBC World Service's One Planet programme that Vietnam's > poverty was a direct result of the use of Agent Orange. > > " They are the poorest and the most vulnerable people - and that is > why Vietnam is a very poor country, " he said. > > " We help the people who are victims of the Agent Orange and the > dioxins, but the capacity of our government is very limited. " > > Contaminated areas > > Campaigners such as Mr Nguyen believe they have been left with little > choice but to resort to legal action, and in 2004 took the chemical > companies that produced Agent Orange to court in the US. > > But last month an American Federal District Judge dismissed the case > on the grounds that use of the defoliant did not violate > international law at the time. An appeal has been lodged against this > decision. > > The US sprayed 80m litres of poisonous chemicals during Operation > Ranchhand. There were many Agents used, including Pink, Green and > White, but Agent Orange was used the most - 45m litres sprayed over a > 10th of Vietnam. > > It was also used - mostly in secret - over parts of neighbouring > Cambodia. > > > It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of > people in Vietnam > > Andrew Wells-Dang, Fund for Reconciliation and Development > But Agent Orange in particular was laced with dioxins - extremely > toxic to humans. Dioxins accumulate in the body to cause cancers. > Anyone eating or drinking in contaminated areas then receives an even > higher dose. > > Spraying stopped in 1971, after more than 6,000 missions and growing > public disquiet. > > But the ground in many areas of Vietnam remains contaminated by Agent > Orange. A number of people in these areas believe they are victims of > the chemical. > > One woman said the herbicide had caused a skin disease which gave > her " great suffering " . > > " If the US and Vietnamese governments could care for people like me, > that would be comforting, " she added. > > Another man said his legs have " wasted away " as a result of Agent > Orange. > > " When I realise I have been contaminated with poisonous chemicals, > and the US government hasn't done anything to help, I feel very sad, > and it makes me cry, " he added. > > " Now I always get severe headaches. My first child has just died - he > had physical deformities. The second one is having headaches like > me. " > > Cancers and disease > > Food and supplies are still delivered to victims of Agent Orange. > Many were not born when the US sprayed the area - but there is strong > evidence the chemicals are still having an effect. > > A disproportionately large number of children in the areas affected > are born with defects, both mental and physical. Many are highly > susceptible to cancers and disease. > > And Vietnamese doctors are convinced Agent Orange is to blame. > > > Agent Orange was intended to defoliate the jungle > " This is due to the US sprayings, " said Dr Hong Tien Dong, village > doctor who has lived in the area all his life. > > " Before, in this area, the environment was quite clean. > > " Now it has become like this. " > > In the late 1990s, a Canadian study tested soil, pond water, fish and > duck tissue, as well as human blood samples, and found dangerously > high levels of dioxin travelling up the food chain to humans. > > Dioxin concentrations have been found to be 13 times higher than > average in the soil of affected areas, and, in human fat tissue, 20 > times as high. > > A Japanese study, comparing areas sprayed with those that were not, > found children were three times more likely to be born with cleft > palates, or extra fingers and toes. > > There are eight times as many hernias in such children, and three > times as many born with mental disabilities. > > In 2001, scientists found that people living in an Agent > Orange " hotspot " at Binh-Hoa near Ho Chi Minh City have 200 times the > background amount of dioxin in their bloodstreams. > > Humanitarian opportunity > > America " normalised " relations with Vietnam 10 years ago, and the > country has now embraced the free market. > > No representative of the US government in Vietnam would talk to One > Planet about Agent Orange. > > However, in 1984, chemical companies that manufactured the Agent paid > $180m into a fund for United States veterans following a lawsuit. > They did not, however, admit any wrongdoing. > > Meanwhile in 2004 - at the same time Mr Nguyen first brought his > lawsuit - a joint-US-Vietnamese project to examine the long-term > genetic impact of Agent Orange was cancelled. > > > US Vietnam veterans won money from Agent Orange makers in 1984 > Some Americans in Vietnam fear that the legacy of Agent Orange is > overshadowing the new friendship between the two countries. > > " Many of the other obstacles have been dealt with - trade and > exchange and diplomatic relations, " said Andrew Wells-Dang, from the > Fund For Reconciliation And Development - an American organisation > set up in the 1980s with the aim of improving relations between the > countries. > > He pointed out that the US has provided funding for clearing mines > that it dropped on Vietnam during the war. > > " We think the US should do the same with Agent Orange, " he added. > > " It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of > people in Vietnam. > > " We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take humanitarian > action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the countries. " > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 we always b*tch about taxes here..yada yada yada sorry..Europe taxes are at a MUCH higher rate... you can't have infrastructure w/o taxes per capita, we spend a pittance on worldwide issues, especially compared to countries like Norway... now..if we spent our funds on helping each other, not just ourselves..we could be a shining beacon instead, it all goes to the military and *smart* bombs..while we we dumb down of skool books brilliant.... Lynda May 5, 2005 8:43 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Anyone ever see any explanation of why they added to 2-4-D instead of justusing it by itself?As to the question, "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to takehumanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between thecountries," just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going toget any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about moremoney. Always more money.Personally, I'm being taxed to death and am tired of all the hands out andtired of our politicians making stupid decisions that keep taking more andmore money out of my pocket.Cold as it may sound, I think it is time we started spending some of thatmoney here at home! We have elderly doing without food so they can buymedication. We have folks on the rez who die from the cold every yearbecause they don't even have heat. The list is long and I'm tired of allthe money going to Israel and a bunch of other stupid things!If they want money then go to the world court. Or hire a GOOD lawyer and doa class action in the name of the children against the manufacturer. Putthe idiots out of business but stop expecting me, as a taxpayer, to fund allthis stuff.Lynda-heartwerk <heartworkWednesday, May 04, 2005 11:37 PM BBC website - Agent Orange> The legacy of Agent Orange>> Vietnam doctors believe the effects of Agent Orange are ongoing> Thirty years after hostilities ended between the US and Vietnam,> relations remain strained by one of America's most notorious actions,> the use of the chemical Agent Orange.> The Vietnamese believe that the powerful weed killer - the use of> which was intended to destroy crops and jungle providing cover for> the Vietcong - is responsible for massively high instances of genetic> defects in areas that were sprayed.>> Nguyen Trong Nhan, from the Vietnam Association Of Victims Of Agent> Orange and a former president of Vietnamese Red Cross, believes the> use of Agent Orange was a "war crime".>> He told BBC World Service's One Planet programme that Vietnam's> poverty was a direct result of the use of Agent Orange.>> "They are the poorest and the most vulnerable people - and that is> why Vietnam is a very poor country," he said.>> "We help the people who are victims of the Agent Orange and the> dioxins, but the capacity of our government is very limited.">> Contaminated areas>> Campaigners such as Mr Nguyen believe they have been left with little> choice but to resort to legal action, and in 2004 took the chemical> companies that produced Agent Orange to court in the US.>> But last month an American Federal District Judge dismissed the case> on the grounds that use of the defoliant did not violate> international law at the time. An appeal has been lodged against this> decision.>> The US sprayed 80m litres of poisonous chemicals during Operation> Ranchhand. There were many Agents used, including Pink, Green and> White, but Agent Orange was used the most - 45m litres sprayed over a> 10th of Vietnam.>> It was also used - mostly in secret - over parts of neighbouring> Cambodia.>>> It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of> people in Vietnam>> Andrew Wells-Dang, Fund for Reconciliation and Development> But Agent Orange in particular was laced with dioxins - extremely> toxic to humans. Dioxins accumulate in the body to cause cancers.> Anyone eating or drinking in contaminated areas then receives an even> higher dose.>> Spraying stopped in 1971, after more than 6,000 missions and growing> public disquiet.>> But the ground in many areas of Vietnam remains contaminated by Agent> Orange. A number of people in these areas believe they are victims of> the chemical.>> One woman said the herbicide had caused a skin disease which gave> her "great suffering".>> "If the US and Vietnamese governments could care for people like me,> that would be comforting," she added.>> Another man said his legs have "wasted away" as a result of Agent> Orange.>> "When I realise I have been contaminated with poisonous chemicals,> and the US government hasn't done anything to help, I feel very sad,> and it makes me cry," he added.>> "Now I always get severe headaches. My first child has just died - he> had physical deformities. The second one is having headaches like> me.">> Cancers and disease>> Food and supplies are still delivered to victims of Agent Orange.> Many were not born when the US sprayed the area - but there is strong> evidence the chemicals are still having an effect.>> A disproportionately large number of children in the areas affected> are born with defects, both mental and physical. Many are highly> susceptible to cancers and disease.>> And Vietnamese doctors are convinced Agent Orange is to blame.>>> Agent Orange was intended to defoliate the jungle> "This is due to the US sprayings," said Dr Hong Tien Dong, village> doctor who has lived in the area all his life.>> "Before, in this area, the environment was quite clean.>> "Now it has become like this.">> In the late 1990s, a Canadian study tested soil, pond water, fish and> duck tissue, as well as human blood samples, and found dangerously> high levels of dioxin travelling up the food chain to humans.>> Dioxin concentrations have been found to be 13 times higher than> average in the soil of affected areas, and, in human fat tissue, 20> times as high.>> A Japanese study, comparing areas sprayed with those that were not,> found children were three times more likely to be born with cleft> palates, or extra fingers and toes.>> There are eight times as many hernias in such children, and three> times as many born with mental disabilities.>> In 2001, scientists found that people living in an Agent> Orange "hotspot" at Binh-Hoa near Ho Chi Minh City have 200 times the> background amount of dioxin in their bloodstreams.>> Humanitarian opportunity>> America "normalised" relations with Vietnam 10 years ago, and the> country has now embraced the free market.>> No representative of the US government in Vietnam would talk to One> Planet about Agent Orange.>> However, in 1984, chemical companies that manufactured the Agent paid> $180m into a fund for United States veterans following a lawsuit.> They did not, however, admit any wrongdoing.>> Meanwhile in 2004 - at the same time Mr Nguyen first brought his> lawsuit - a joint-US-Vietnamese project to examine the long-term> genetic impact of Agent Orange was cancelled.>>> US Vietnam veterans won money from Agent Orange makers in 1984> Some Americans in Vietnam fear that the legacy of Agent Orange is> overshadowing the new friendship between the two countries.>> "Many of the other obstacles have been dealt with - trade and> exchange and diplomatic relations," said Andrew Wells-Dang, from the> Fund For Reconciliation And Development - an American organisation> set up in the 1980s with the aim of improving relations between the> countries.>> He pointed out that the US has provided funding for clearing mines> that it dropped on Vietnam during the war.>> "We think the US should do the same with Agent Orange," he added.>> "It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of> people in Vietnam.>> "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take humanitarian> action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the countries.">>>>>>>>>>> To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Sorry to say we agree with you Fraggle - the US government is not held in high esteem here in many quarters (neither is the UK government) Jo we always b*tch about taxes here..yada yada yada sorry..Europe taxes are at a MUCH higher rate... you can't have infrastructure w/o taxes per capita, we spend a pittance on worldwide issues, especially compared to countries like Norway... now..if we spent our funds on helping each other, not just ourselves..we could be a shining beacon instead, it all goes to the military and *smart* bombs..while we we dumb down of skool books brilliant.... Lynda May 5, 2005 8:43 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Anyone ever see any explanation of why they added to 2-4-D instead of justusing it by itself?As to the question, "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to takehumanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between thecountries," just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going toget any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about moremoney. Always more money.Personally, I'm being taxed to death and am tired of all the hands out andtired of our politicians making stupid decisions that keep taking more andmore money out of my pocket.Cold as it may sound, I think it is time we started spending some of thatmoney here at home! We have elderly doing without food so they can buymedication. We have folks on the rez who die from the cold every yearbecause they don't even have heat. The list is long and I'm tired of allthe money going to Israel and a bunch of other stupid things!If they want money then go to the world court. Or hire a GOOD lawyer and doa class action in the name of the children against the manufacturer. Putthe idiots out of business but stop expecting me, as a taxpayer, to fund allthis stuff.Lynda-heartwerk <heartworkWednesday, May 04, 2005 11:37 PM BBC website - Agent Orange> The legacy of Agent Orange>> Vietnam doctors believe the effects of Agent Orange are ongoing> Thirty years after hostilities ended between the US and Vietnam ,> relations remain strained by one of America's most notorious actions,> the use of the chemical Agent Orange.> The Vietnamese believe that the powerful weed killer - the use of> which was intended to destroy crops and jungle providing cover for> the Vietcong - is responsible for massively high instances of genetic> defects in areas that were sprayed.>> Nguyen Trong Nhan, from the Vietnam Association Of Victims Of Agent> Orange and a former president of Vietnamese Red Cross, believes the> use of Agent Orange was a "war crime".>> He told BBC World Service's One Planet programme that Vietnam's> poverty was a direct result of the use of Agent Orange.>> "They are the poorest and the most vulnerable people - and that is> why Vietnam is a very poor country," he said.>> "We help the people who are victims of the Agent Orange and the> dioxins, but the capacity of our government is very limited.">> Contaminated areas>> Campaigners such as Mr Nguyen believe they have been left with little> choice but to resort to legal action, and in 2004 took the chemical> companies that produced Agent Orange to court in the US.>> But last month an American Federal District Judge dismissed the case> on the grounds that use of the defoliant did not violate> international law at the time. An appeal has been lodged against this> decision.>> The US sprayed 80m litres of poisonous chemicals during Operation> Ranchhand. There were many Agents used, including Pink, Green and> White, but Agent Orange was used the most - 45m litres sprayed over a> 10th of Vietnam.>> It was also used - mostly in secret - over parts of neighbouring> Cambodia.>>> It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of> people in Vietnam>> Andrew Wells-Dang, Fund for Reconciliation and Development> But Agent Orange in particular was laced with dioxins - extremely> toxic to humans. Dioxins accumulate in the body to cause cancers.> Anyone eating or drinking in contaminated areas then receives an even> higher dose.>> Spraying stopped in 1971, after more than 6,000 missions and growing> public disquiet.>> But the ground in many areas of Vietnam remains contaminated by Agent> Orange. A number of people in these areas believe they are victims of> the chemical.>> One woman said the herbicide had caused a skin disease which gave> her "great suffering".>> "If the US and Vietnamese governments could care for people like me,> that would be comforting," she added.>> Another man said his legs have "wasted away" as a result of Agent> Orange.>> "When I realise I have been contaminated with poisonous chemicals,> and the US government hasn't done anything to help, I feel very sad,> and it makes me cry," he added.>> "Now I always get severe headaches. My first child has just died - he> had physical deformities. The second one is having headaches like> me.">> Cancers and disease>> Food and supplies are still delivered to victims of Agent Orange.> Many were not born when the US sprayed the area - but there is strong> evidence the chemicals are still having an effect.>> A disproportionately large number of children in the areas affected> are born with defects, both mental and physical. Many are highly> susceptible to cancers and disease.>> And Vietnamese doctors are convinced Agent Orange is to blame.>>> Agent Orange was intended to defoliate the j ungle> "This is due to the US sprayings," said Dr Hong Tien Dong, village> doctor who has lived in the area all his life.>> "Before, in this area, the environment was quite clean.>> "Now it has become like this.">> In the late 1990s, a Canadian study tested soil, pond water, fish and> duck tissue, as well as human blood samples, and found dangerously> high levels of dioxin travelling up the food chain to humans.>> Dioxin concentrations have been found to be 13 times higher than> average in the soil of affected areas, and, in human fat tissue, 20> times as high.>> A Japanese study, comparing areas sprayed with those that were not,> found children were three times more likely to be born with cleft> palates, or extra fingers and toes.>> There are eight times as many hernias in such children, and three> times as many born with mental disabilities.>> In 2001, scientists found that people living in an Agent> Orange "hotspot" at Binh-Hoa near Ho Chi Minh City have 200 times the> background amount of dioxin in their bloodstreams.>> Humanitarian opportunity>> America "normalised" relations with Vietnam 10 years ago, and the> country has now embraced the free market.>> No representative of the US government in Vietnam would talk to One> Planet about Agent Orange.>> However, in 1984, chemical companies that manufactured the Agent paid> $180m into a fund for United States veterans following a lawsuit.> They did not, however, admit any wrongdoing.>> Meanwhile in 2004 - at the same time Mr Nguyen first brought his> lawsuit - a joint-US-Vietnamese project to examine the long-term> genetic impact of Agent Orange was cancelled.>>> US Vietnam veterans won mone y from Agent Orange makers in 1984> Some Americans in Vietnam fear that the legacy of Agent Orange is> overshadowing the new friendship between the two countries.>> "Many of the other obstacles have been dealt with - trade and> exchange and diplomatic relations," said Andrew Wells-Dang, from the> Fund For Reconciliation And Development - an American organisation> set up in the 1980s with the aim of improving relations between the> countries.>> He pointed out that the US has provided funding for clearing mines> that it dropped on Vietnam during the war.>> "We think the US should do the same with Agent Orange," he added.>> "It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of> people in Vietnam.>> "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take humanitarian> action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the countries.">>>>>>>>>>> To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxes for that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as the US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over the world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the consequences and help their victims. Jo > > As to the question, " We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take > humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the > countries, " just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going to > get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about more > money. Always more money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 thats obviously because you hate our fweedoms sorry..did that come out overly bitter and sarcastic? whoops yeah..i know our government is falling further and further in the eyes in the rest of the world nowhere to go but up after this, right? right? right? *sigh* Jo Cwazy May 5, 2005 10:42 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Sorry to say we agree with you Fraggle - the US government is not held in high esteem here in many quarters (neither is the UK government) Jo And Bugs Bunny is a friend of mine Eating him I'd feel like Frankenstein Eating flesh seems pretty foul to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 oh..wots a few trillion dollars.... http://www.sensiblepriorities.org/budget_analysis.htm-----Original Message----- Jo Cwazy May 5, 2005 10:45 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxes forthat - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as theUS caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over theworld) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the consequencesand help their victims.Jo>> As to the question, "We would see this as an opportunity for the US totake> humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the> countries," just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is goingto> get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about more> money. Always more money.To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 It's only your government - not your people, who are hoodwinked by the government, just as we are by ours. Jo - fraggle Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:55 PM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange thats obviously because you hate our fweedoms sorry..did that come out overly bitter and sarcastic? whoops yeah..i know our government is falling further and further in the eyes in the rest of the world nowhere to go but up after this, right? right? right? *sigh* Jo Cwazy May 5, 2005 10:42 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Sorry to say we agree with you Fraggle - the US government is not held in high esteem here in many quarters (neither is the UK government) Jo To send an email to - And Bugs Bunny is a friend of mine Eating him I'd feel like Frankenstein Eating flesh seems pretty foul to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 And the crazy thing is that the US & UK between them have the resources to feed everyone in the world without trying... so you have to wonder why people are starving *anywhere* (Well, we know why, but you get my drift!) BB Peter - fraggle Thursday, May 05, 2005 5:47 PM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange we always b*tch about taxes here..yada yada yada sorry..Europe taxes are at a MUCH higher rate... you can't have infrastructure w/o taxes per capita, we spend a pittance on worldwide issues, especially compared to countries like Norway... now..if we spent our funds on helping each other, not just ourselves..we could be a shining beacon instead, it all goes to the military and *smart* bombs..while we we dumb down of skool books brilliant.... Lynda May 5, 2005 8:43 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Anyone ever see any explanation of why they added to 2-4-D instead of justusing it by itself?As to the question, "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to takehumanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between thecountries," just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going toget any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about moremoney. Always more money.Personally, I'm being taxed to death and am tired of all the hands out andtired of our politicians making stupid decisions that keep taking more andmore money out of my pocket.Cold as it may sound, I think it is time we started spending some of thatmoney here at home! We have elderly doing without food so they can buymedication. We have folks on the rez who die from the cold every yearbecause they don't even have heat. The list is long and I'm tired of allthe money going to Israel and a bunch of other stupid things!If they want money then go to the world court. Or hire a GOOD lawyer and doa class action in the name of the children against the manufacturer. Putthe idiots out of business but stop expecting me, as a taxpayer, to fund allthis stuff.Lynda-heartwerk <heartworkWednesday, May 04, 2005 11:37 PM BBC website - Agent Orange> The legacy of Agent Orange>> Vietnam doctors believe the effects of Agent Orange are ongoing> Thirty years after hostilities ended between the US and Vietnam ,> relations remain strained by one of America's most notorious actions,> the use of the chemical Agent Orange.> The Vietnamese believe that the powerful weed killer - the use of> which was intended to destroy crops and jungle providing cover for> the Vietcong - is responsible for massively high instances of genetic> defects in areas that were sprayed.>> Nguyen Trong Nhan, from the Vietnam Association Of Victims Of Agent> Orange and a former president of Vietnamese Red Cross, believes the> use of Agent Orange was a "war crime".>> He told BBC World Service's One Planet programme that Vietnam's> poverty was a direct result of the use of Agent Orange.>> "They are the poorest and the most vulnerable people - and that is> why Vietnam is a very poor country," he said.>> "We help the people who are victims of the Agent Orange and the> dioxins, but the capacity of our government is very limited.">> Contaminated areas>> Campaigners such as Mr Nguyen believe they have been left with little> choice but to resort to legal action, and in 2004 took the chemical> companies that produced Agent Orange to court in the US.>> But last month an American Federal District Judge dismissed the case> on the grounds that use of the defoliant did not violate> international law at the time. An appeal has been lodged against this> decision.>> The US sprayed 80m litres of poisonous chemicals during Operation> Ranchhand. There were many Agents used, including Pink, Green and> White, but Agent Orange was used the most - 45m litres sprayed over a> 10th of Vietnam.>> It was also used - mostly in secret - over parts of neighbouring> Cambodia.>>> It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of> people in Vietnam>> Andrew Wells-Dang, Fund for Reconciliation and Development> But Agent Orange in particular was laced with dioxins - extremely> toxic to humans. Dioxins accumulate in the body to cause cancers.> Anyone eating or drinking in contaminated areas then receives an even> higher dose.>> Spraying stopped in 1971, after more than 6,000 missions and growing> public disquiet.>> But the ground in many areas of Vietnam remains contaminated by Agent> Orange. A number of people in these areas believe they are victims of> the chemical.>> One woman said the herbicide had caused a skin disease which gave> her "great suffering".>> "If the US and Vietnamese governments could care for people like me,> that would be comforting," she added.>> Another man said his legs have "wasted away" as a result of Agent> Orange.>> "When I realise I have been contaminated with poisonous chemicals,> and the US government hasn't done anything to help, I feel very sad,> and it makes me cry," he added.>> "Now I always get severe headaches. My first child has just died - he> had physical deformities. The second one is having headaches like> me.">> Cancers and disease>> Food and supplies are still delivered to victims of Agent Orange.> Many were not born when the US sprayed the area - but there is strong> evidence the chemicals are still having an effect.>> A disproportionately large number of children in the areas affected> are born with defects, both mental and physical. Many are highly> susceptible to cancers and disease.>> And Vietnamese doctors are convinced Agent Orange is to blame.>>> Agent Orange was intended to defoliate the j ungle> "This is due to the US sprayings," said Dr Hong Tien Dong, village> doctor who has lived in the area all his life.>> "Before, in this area, the environment was quite clean.>> "Now it has become like this.">> In the late 1990s, a Canadian study tested soil, pond water, fish and> duck tissue, as well as human blood samples, and found dangerously> high levels of dioxin travelling up the food chain to humans.>> Dioxin concentrations have been found to be 13 times higher than> average in the soil of affected areas, and, in human fat tissue, 20> times as high.>> A Japanese study, comparing areas sprayed with those that were not,> found children were three times more likely to be born with cleft> palates, or extra fingers and toes.>> There are eight times as many hernias in such children, and three> times as many born with mental disabilities.>> In 2001, scientists found that people living in an Agent> Orange "hotspot" at Binh-Hoa near Ho Chi Minh City have 200 times the> background amount of dioxin in their bloodstreams.>> Humanitarian opportunity>> America "normalised" relations with Vietnam 10 years ago, and the> country has now embraced the free market.>> No representative of the US government in Vietnam would talk to One> Planet about Agent Orange.>> However, in 1984, chemical companies that manufactured the Agent paid> $180m into a fund for United States veterans following a lawsuit.> They did not, however, admit any wrongdoing.>> Meanwhile in 2004 - at the same time Mr Nguyen first brought his> lawsuit - a joint-US-Vietnamese project to examine the long-term> genetic impact of Agent Orange was cancelled.>>> US Vietnam veterans won mone y from Agent Orange makers in 1984> Some Americans in Vietnam fear that the legacy of Agent Orange is> overshadowing the new friendship between the two countries.>> "Many of the other obstacles have been dealt with - trade and> exchange and diplomatic relations," said Andrew Wells-Dang, from the> Fund For Reconciliation And Development - an American organisation> set up in the 1980s with the aim of improving relations between the> countries.>> He pointed out that the US has provided funding for clearing mines> that it dropped on Vietnam during the war.>> "We think the US should do the same with Agent Orange," he added.>> "It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of> people in Vietnam.>> "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take humanitarian> action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the countries.">>>>>>>>>>> To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Hi EveryoneMaybe you could help with this request please. Sam is on the Vegetarian Society list that I also belong to.Many thanks.Jo-"Sam McCreesh" <sam<VegSoc-TalkThursday, May 05, 2005 6:30 PMPlease help me with my GCSE project> Hi everyone,>> I am starting my major project for GCSE Graphic Design and my topic isVegan> Coffee Shops. As part of this I have to conduct a public survey to findout> different reasons why people would come to a vegan coffee shop and what> they’d expect from it.>> I’d be extremely grateful if you’d be able to spend a few minutesfilling> in the short survey below and returning it to me at> sam by the end of the weekend. Doing so would> really help me with my project and GCSE work.>> Thanks (in advance) for your help!!>> Best wishes,> Sam>> ========================================================================>> Vegan Coffee Shop | Public Questionnaire> Please delete all responses leaving one remaining response that is> appropriate to you and specify answer where asked - many thanks.>> 1. How often do you eat out?>> Once a week □ Twice a week □ More than twice a week □ Every day □>> 2. What type of food do you eat regularly?>> Fast (convenience) food □ Snacks □ Healthy options □ Anything available> □>> 3. Do you…>> Follow a Vegetarian diet □ or Vegan diet □ Eat meat □ Have a foodallergy> (please specify any foods or food groups that you are allergic to): □>> 4. Would you eat vegetarian or vegan food because…>> It was available □ It was available and looked nice □ It was the onlyfood> available □ You’re vegetarian or vegan □ You were with someone who is> vegetarian/vegan □>> 5. When eating out are you more likely to…>> Eat in □ Take away □ Use home delivery if available □>> 6. What do you purchase most often when eating out?>> Light meal (e.g. sandwich) □ Snack (e.g. piece of cake or packed ofcrisps)> □> Main meal (e.g. jacket potato or other dish) □ Hot drinks □ Cold drinks□>> 7. When eating out, how do you decide where to eat?>> Local restaurant guide □ Recommendation/word of mouth □ Drop in ifpassing> by □> Yellow pages □ Website □ Flyer □ Magazine □ Local newspaper □>> 8. Have you heard of any of the following organisations?>> The Vegetarian Society promoting the health benefits of a vegetarian diet> and providing support □> The Vegan Society the health benefits of a vegan diet and providingsupport> □> Vegetarians International Voice for Animals (Viva!) Exposing andcampaigning> against factory farming and promoting the vegetarian and vegan diets □>> 9. Have you read any of the following publications>> The Vegan Magazine produced by The Vegan Society □> The Vegetarian Magazine produced by The Vegetarian Society □> Viva! Life Magazine produced by Viva! Campaigns □>>> Finally please tell us a bit about yourself…(entirely optional!!)>> Full Name (including Forename and Surname):> Age range: under10 □ 11-16 □ 17-21 □ 22-25 □ 26-35 □ 36-45 □ 46-55□> 56-60 □ over60 □> Area of residence (e.g. nearest town and county):>> Many thanks for your time and help.>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 now Jo, not that my love for the ole USA is very high right now but...... most of the global problems have deep deep roots that go back to prior to WWI and who was running the world then?? the UK. (no need for a history lesson) to be fair it is a Western problem when you talk about global issues. the eastern countries have only recently joined the west in helping accelerate our destruction. so maybe WE ALL should take Responsibility for the consequences and help the victims. all the best Craig On Behalf Of Jo CwazyFriday, May 06, 2005 1:45 AM Subject: Re: BBC website - Agent OrangeThe money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxes forthat - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as theUS caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over theworld) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the consequencesand help their victims.Jo>> As to the question, "We would see this as an opportunity for the US totake> humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the> countries," just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is goingto> get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about more> money. Always more money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Now Craig If you read my posts I think you will see the UK government shares the blame in all of them - so there is no need for a history lesson thanks. Jo , " Craig Dearth " <cd39@e...> wrote: > now Jo, > not that my love for the ole USA is very high right now but...... > most of the global problems have deep deep roots that go back to prior to > WWI and who was running the world then?? > the UK. (no need for a history lesson) to be fair it is a Western problem > when you talk about global issues. > the eastern countries have only recently joined the west in helping > accelerate our destruction. > so maybe WE ALL should take Responsibility for the consequences and help the > victims. > all the best > Craig > > > > On > Behalf Of Jo Cwazy > Friday, May 06, 2005 1:45 AM > > Re: BBC website - Agent Orange > > > The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxes for > that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as the > US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over the > world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the consequences > and help their victims. > > Jo > > > > > > > As to the question, " We would see this as an opportunity for the US to > take > > humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the > > countries, " just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going > to > > get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about more > > money. Always more money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Naughty, naughty, Jo. The UK was at the " mess with the world " business long before the U.S. and they haven't fixed one single thing they broke. If they hadn't been " messing with the world,, millions of Native Americans wouldn't be dead and the U.S. as it is, modeled after jolly ol' England, wouldn't exist. In fact, the majority of our foreign aid wouldn't be going to Israel if y'all on that side of the pond had done the job you were supposed to do back beginning in the 20s. As to our military budget, a large % of it is a form of foreign aid along with the $21 BILLION the U.S. already " formally " spends. Tack onto that the hundreds of billions in foreign loans that are never repaid for, hmmmm, repairing countries/cities that were bombed by the Germans during WWII. How short one's memory is. The U.S. is no different than the rest of the colonizers or war mongers and it is really pretty silly to call names, remember the pot and the kettle and people who live in glass house and throwing rocks. So, when is the UK going to take responsibility for their share of the genocide in the U.S.? Lynda, really tired of all the finger pointing when the finger pointers government certainly aren't any better. - Jo Cwazy <heartwork Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:45 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange > The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxes for > that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as the > US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over the > world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the consequences > and help their victims. > > Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Jo, the really sad thing is here we know the UK and the USA are doing all this and kid brother Australia wants some too. =o[[ Craig On Behalf Of heartwerkFriday, May 06, 2005 2:30 PM Subject: Re: BBC website - Agent OrangeNow Craig If you read my posts I think you will see the UK government shares the blame in all of them - so there is no need for a history lesson thanks.Jo , "Craig Dearth" <cd39@e...> wrote:> now Jo,> not that my love for the ole USA is very high right now but......> most of the global problems have deep deep roots that go back to prior to> WWI and who was running the world then??> the UK. (no need for a history lesson) to be fair it is a Western problem> when you talk about global issues.> the eastern countries have only recently joined the west in helping> accelerate our destruction.> so maybe WE ALL should take Responsibility for the consequences and help the> victims.> all the best> Craig> > > > On> Behalf Of Jo Cwazy> Friday, May 06, 2005 1:45 AM> > Re: BBC website - Agent Orange> > > The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxes for> that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as the> US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over the> world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the consequences> and help their victims.> > Jo> > > > >> > As to the question, "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to> take> > humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the> > countries," just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going> to> > get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about more> > money. Always more money.To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Hi Craig I don't think they will let you have a share :-) Jo , " Craig Dearth " <cd39@e...> wrote: > Jo, > the really sad thing is here we know the UK and the USA are doing all > this > and kid brother Australia wants some too. =o[[ > Craig > > > On > Behalf Of heartwerk > Friday, May 06, 2005 2:30 PM > > Re: BBC website - Agent Orange > > > Now Craig > > If you read my posts I think you will see the UK government shares > the blame in all of them - so there is no need for a history lesson > thanks. > > Jo > > , " Craig Dearth " <cd39@e...> wrote: > > now Jo, > > not that my love for the ole USA is very high right now > but...... > > most of the global problems have deep deep roots that go back to > prior to > > WWI and who was running the world then?? > > the UK. (no need for a history lesson) to be fair it is a Western > problem > > when you talk about global issues. > > the eastern countries have only recently joined the west in helping > > accelerate our destruction. > > so maybe WE ALL should take Responsibility for the consequences and > help the > > victims. > > all the best > > Craig > > > > > > > > > On > > Behalf Of Jo Cwazy > > Friday, May 06, 2005 1:45 AM > > > > Re: BBC website - Agent Orange > > > > > > The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying > taxes for > > that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing > as the > > US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all > over the > > world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the > consequences > > and help their victims. > > > > Jo > > > > > > > > > > > > As to the question, " We would see this as an opportunity for the > US to > > take > > > humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between > the > > > countries, " just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. > is going > > to > > > get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking > about more > > > money. Always more money. > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > -- -------- > ---- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Naughty Naughty Lynda - you are assuming that my emails apply only to the US when I have clearly said they apply to the UK as well. Glasshouses and stones do not apply. As for third world debts - well look it up. It's not the blessing you think it is Lynda, even though our governments would like you to think that way. You make the mistake of getting angry with me when you should be angry at my government and yours. They are winning the game of divide and conquer - and you cannot see it. Jo , " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote: > Naughty, naughty, Jo. The UK was at the " mess with the world " business long > before the U.S. and they haven't fixed one single thing they broke. If > they hadn't been " messing with the world,, millions of Native Americans > wouldn't be dead and the U.S. as it is, modeled after jolly ol' England, > wouldn't exist. > > In fact, the majority of our foreign aid wouldn't be going to Israel if > y'all on that side of the pond had done the job you were supposed to do back > beginning in the 20s. > > As to our military budget, a large % of it is a form of foreign aid along > with the $21 BILLION the U.S. already " formally " spends. Tack onto that the > hundreds of billions in foreign loans that are never repaid for, hmmmm, > repairing countries/cities that were bombed by the Germans during WWII. How > short one's memory is. > > The U.S. is no different than the rest of the colonizers or war mongers and > it is really pretty silly to call names, remember the pot and the kettle and > people who live in glass house and throwing rocks. > > So, when is the UK going to take responsibility for their share of the > genocide in the U.S.? > > Lynda, really tired of all the finger pointing when the finger pointers > government certainly aren't any better. > - > Jo Cwazy <heartwork@c...> > > Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:45 AM > Re: BBC website - Agent Orange > > > > The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxes > for > > that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as the > > US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over the > > world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the > consequences > > and help their victims. > > > > Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Hi Lynda > Naughty, naughty, Jo. The UK was at the " mess with the world " business long > before the U.S. and they haven't fixed one single thing they broke. If > they hadn't been " messing with the world,, millions of Native Americans > wouldn't be dead and the U.S. as it is, modeled after jolly ol' England, > wouldn't exist. Geez - you *really* have missed the point haven't you. Funny, you didn't strike me as the nationalstic sort - I thought you were a bit more sensible than that... Rather than getting aggressive, perhaps you could suggest what *anyone* on this list could have done to prevent what the UK government was doing in the 1700s and 1920s - I was born in 1974, so couldn't really do much about any of this. The UK government is still doing some bad stuff, and quite a lot of us are doing what we can (I spend most weekends involved in some sort of protest, be it animal rights, G8, peace rallies, pro-Kyoto anti-Esso rallies etc.) None of this takes away from the fact that the US government right now is one of the most aggressive the world has ever known. This is not the fault of the American people, only those few who support the US government. I'm just surprised that you are one of those few! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 This is the sort of thing that is annoying, " Seeing as the > > US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over the > > world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the > consequences > > and help their victims. " And I have left your post attached. You said nothing about anything but the U.S. You did later reply to someone else that it was a problem with others. I guess we get tired of the U.S. bashing when most of the countries doing it are doing as bad OR worse than the U.S. Unfortunately it would appear that Blair is in again which means the hope that Alfred E. Newman's evil doppleganger will still have someone perpetrating the lies about Iraq. Seems, generally speaking, that the average voter has not sense, in either country, than a truck load of rutabagas! Lynda - heartwerk <heartwork Friday, May 06, 2005 4:32 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange > Naughty Naughty Lynda - you are assuming that my emails apply only to > the US when I have clearly said they apply to the UK as well. > Glasshouses and stones do not apply. > > As for third world debts - well look it up. It's not the blessing > you think it is Lynda, even though our governments would like you to > think that way. > > You make the mistake of getting angry with me when you should be > angry at my government and yours. They are winning the game of > divide and conquer - and you cannot see it. > > Jo > > , " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote: > > Naughty, naughty, Jo. The UK was at the " mess with the world " > business long > > before the U.S. and they haven't fixed one single thing they > broke. If > > they hadn't been " messing with the world,, millions of Native > Americans > > wouldn't be dead and the U.S. as it is, modeled after jolly ol' > England, > > wouldn't exist. > > > > In fact, the majority of our foreign aid wouldn't be going to > Israel if > > y'all on that side of the pond had done the job you were supposed > to do back > > beginning in the 20s. > > > > As to our military budget, a large % of it is a form of foreign aid > along > > with the $21 BILLION the U.S. already " formally " spends. Tack onto > that the > > hundreds of billions in foreign loans that are never repaid for, > hmmmm, > > repairing countries/cities that were bombed by the Germans during > WWII. How > > short one's memory is. > > > > The U.S. is no different than the rest of the colonizers or war > mongers and > > it is really pretty silly to call names, remember the pot and the > kettle and > > people who live in glass house and throwing rocks. > > > > So, when is the UK going to take responsibility for their share of > the > > genocide in the U.S.? > > > > Lynda, really tired of all the finger pointing when the finger > pointers > > government certainly aren't any better. > > - > > Jo Cwazy <heartwork@c...> > > > > Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:45 AM > > Re: BBC website - Agent Orange > > > > > > > The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind > paying taxes > > for > > > that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. > Seeing as the > > > US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all > over the > > > world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the > > consequences > > > and help their victims. > > > > > > Jo > > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 ah..tsk tsk see..wot the UK did was quite a long time ago.. sure..they were colonizers and exploiters..and still are, to a certain extent.. but..they certainly are a junior partner to the good ol US o' A today *waves flag* i live in today..and while i can find fault in britain(and france and germany and) from years past...well..that was ages ago.. i need to focus on the fun things we are doing today! gawd,...i love when we talk politics..everyones panties gets all bunced up... ow..thats sooo uncomfortable.... wedgie.... cheers and hork lords of love fraggle Lynda May 6, 2005 12:04 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Naughty, naughty, Jo. The UK was at the "mess with the world" business longbefore the U.S. and they haven't fixed one single thing they broke. Ifthey hadn't been "messing with the world,, millions of Native Americanswouldn't be dead and the U.S. as it is, modeled after jolly ol' England,wouldn't exist.In fact, the majority of our foreign aid wouldn't be going to Israel ify'all on that side of the pond had done the job you were supposed to do backbeginning in the 20s.As to our military budget, a large % of it is a form of foreign aid alongwith the $21 BILLION the U.S. already "formally" spends. Tack onto that thehundreds of billions in foreign loans that are never repaid for, hmmmm,repairing countries/cities that were bombed by the Germans during WWII. Howshort one's memory is.The U.S. is no different than the rest of the colonizers or war mongers andit is really pretty silly to call names, remember the pot and the kettle andpeople who live in glass house and throwing rocks.So, when is the UK going to take responsibility for their share of thegenocide in the U.S.?Lynda, really tired of all the finger pointing when the finger pointersgovernment certainly aren't any better.-Jo Cwazy <heartworkThursday, May 05, 2005 10:45 AMRe: BBC website - Agent Orange> The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxesfor> that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as the> US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over the> world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for theconsequences> and help their victims.>> JoTo send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 the US is the largest debtor nation in the world.... that aid you were talking about lynda in the pentagon's budget..that is military aid..not like we are pulling them out of poverty the debt that foreign countries accrue is due to aggression tactics fostered by the IMF and world bank in conjunction with world financial institutions... the leaders of these countries are told over and over "hey, we'll come in and build this dam, er this highway, and loan you the money"..its set up to aid the largest corporate conglomerates(the money doesn't go to some local construction firm, its always a foreign company, generally a US firm like bechtel) the country gets this huge boondogle which only benefits a select few...and now the nation is saddled with some huge debt and they can't even pay off the interest, never mind the loan itself... so the IMF comes in and sez.."ok, since you are falling behind on payments, we are going t ohelp you..you must privatize everything, and only grow certain crops that you can sell, screw feeding yer own ppl" and it spirals down from there there is an entire group of people whose job is to go to foriegn countries and convince them that they need to build dams, airports and huge infrastructures that they can't afford...in the biz they are called "economic hit men" and if the country defaults er decides its not going to pay this outrageous debt...they send in the jackals..the Company, the CIA and *poof*..the recalcitrate leader is no more to empire heartwerk May 6, 2005 4:32 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Naughty Naughty Lynda - you are assuming that my emails apply only to the US when I have clearly said they apply to the UK as well. Glasshouses and stones do not apply.As for third world debts - well look it up. It's not the blessing you think it is Lynda, even though our governments would like you to think that way.You make the mistake of getting angry with me when you should be angry at my government and yours. They are winning the game of divide and conquer - and you cannot see it.Jo And Bugs Bunny is a friend of mine Eating him I'd feel like Frankenstein Eating flesh seems pretty foul to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Didn't say I supported the U.S. government. I said I was tired of folks who live in glass houses forever bashing the U.S. BTW, Israel is now. What is the UK doing about the War Criminal Sharon? Lynda - Peter <metalscarab Friday, May 06, 2005 5:18 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange > Hi Lynda > > > Naughty, naughty, Jo. The UK was at the " mess with the world " business > long > > before the U.S. and they haven't fixed one single thing they broke. If > > they hadn't been " messing with the world,, millions of Native Americans > > wouldn't be dead and the U.S. as it is, modeled after jolly ol' England, > > wouldn't exist. > > Geez - you *really* have missed the point haven't you. Funny, you didn't > strike me as the nationalstic sort - I thought you were a bit more sensible > than that... > > Rather than getting aggressive, perhaps you could suggest what *anyone* on > this list could have done to prevent what the UK government was doing in the > 1700s and 1920s - I was born in 1974, so couldn't really do much about any > of this. > > The UK government is still doing some bad stuff, and quite a lot of us are > doing what we can (I spend most weekends involved in some sort of protest, > be it animal rights, G8, peace rallies, pro-Kyoto anti-Esso rallies etc.) > > None of this takes away from the fact that the US government right now is > one of the most aggressive the world has ever known. This is not the fault > of the American people, only those few who support the US government. I'm > just surprised that you are one of those few! > > BB > Peter > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 i would assume about the same as they are doing to war criminals bush, cheney and rumsy... ok...where is kristina to yell at me? Lynda May 6, 2005 1:26 PM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Didn't say I supported the U.S. government. I said I was tired of folks wholive in glass houses forever bashing the U.S.BTW, Israel is now. What is the UK doing about the War Criminal Sharon?Lynda And Bugs Bunny is a friend of mine Eating him I'd feel like Frankenstein Eating flesh seems pretty foul to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Hi Lynda > BTW, Israel is now. What is the UK doing about the War Criminal Sharon? Well, it's not giving them anywhere near as much funding as the US government! Personally, I avoid buying from stores that give financial support to Israel such as M & S, and am involved in Dissent. What are you doing about it? BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Hi Lynda > Seems, generally speaking, that the average voter has not sense, in either > country, than a truck load of rutabagas! I think you're a little harsh on the " average " voter... Blair has received votes from only 22% of the population - not even one in four people. I believe that Bush received a similar percentage - the problem is not the avergae voter, but the systems that we have to vote in, which has been created (in both countries) to ensure that only a select few will ever be able to get into power, but all the time making it look like everyone has a say... a great way of preventing popular uprisings, which would have happened long ago in both countries if people had realised that they were in a dictatorship! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Making sure the news of what is happening in Palestine gets out there. That corrections are made when newspapers get it wrong. Correcting folks who have all kinds of misinformation about the history of the region. Continually bombarding elected reps about what is happening to real people in Palestine. Getting out there the info on the atrocities perpetrated by the Israelis. And before anyone goes off on this, I don't approve of suicide bombers but I understand their frustration. Folks from the rez know all about the tactics being used against the Palestinians. Lynda - Peter <metalscarab Friday, May 06, 2005 1:37 PM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange > Hi Lynda > > > BTW, Israel is now. What is the UK doing about the War Criminal Sharon? > > Well, it's not giving them anywhere near as much funding as the US > government! > > Personally, I avoid buying from stores that give financial support to Israel > such as M & S, and am involved in Dissent. > > What are you doing about it? > > BB > Peter > > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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