BBC website - Agent Orange

May 5, 2005

The legacy of Agent Orange

Vietnam doctors believe the effects of Agent Orange are ongoing

Thirty years after hostilities ended between the US and Vietnam,

relations remain strained by one of America's most notorious actions,

the use of the chemical Agent Orange.

The Vietnamese believe that the powerful weed killer - the use of

which was intended to destroy crops and jungle providing cover for

the Vietcong - is responsible for massively high instances of genetic

defects in areas that were sprayed.

Nguyen Trong Nhan, from the Vietnam Association Of Victims Of Agent

Orange and a former president of Vietnamese Red Cross, believes the

use of Agent Orange was a " war crime " .

He told BBC World Service's One Planet programme that Vietnam's

poverty was a direct result of the use of Agent Orange.

" They are the poorest and the most vulnerable people - and that is

why Vietnam is a very poor country, " he said.

" We help the people who are victims of the Agent Orange and the

dioxins, but the capacity of our government is very limited. "

Contaminated areas

Campaigners such as Mr Nguyen believe they have been left with little

choice but to resort to legal action, and in 2004 took the chemical

companies that produced Agent Orange to court in the US.

But last month an American Federal District Judge dismissed the case

on the grounds that use of the defoliant did not violate

international law at the time. An appeal has been lodged against this

decision.

The US sprayed 80m litres of poisonous chemicals during Operation

Ranchhand. There were many Agents used, including Pink, Green and

White, but Agent Orange was used the most - 45m litres sprayed over a

10th of Vietnam.

It was also used - mostly in secret - over parts of neighbouring

Cambodia.

It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of

people in Vietnam

Andrew Wells-Dang, Fund for Reconciliation and Development

But Agent Orange in particular was laced with dioxins - extremely

toxic to humans. Dioxins accumulate in the body to cause cancers.

Anyone eating or drinking in contaminated areas then receives an even

higher dose.

Spraying stopped in 1971, after more than 6,000 missions and growing

public disquiet.

But the ground in many areas of Vietnam remains contaminated by Agent

Orange. A number of people in these areas believe they are victims of

the chemical.

One woman said the herbicide had caused a skin disease which gave

her " great suffering " .

" If the US and Vietnamese governments could care for people like me,

that would be comforting, " she added.

Another man said his legs have " wasted away " as a result of Agent

Orange.

" When I realise I have been contaminated with poisonous chemicals,

and the US government hasn't done anything to help, I feel very sad,

and it makes me cry, " he added.

" Now I always get severe headaches. My first child has just died - he

had physical deformities. The second one is having headaches like

me. "

Cancers and disease

Food and supplies are still delivered to victims of Agent Orange.

Many were not born when the US sprayed the area - but there is strong

evidence the chemicals are still having an effect.

A disproportionately large number of children in the areas affected

are born with defects, both mental and physical. Many are highly

susceptible to cancers and disease.

And Vietnamese doctors are convinced Agent Orange is to blame.

Agent Orange was intended to defoliate the jungle

" This is due to the US sprayings, " said Dr Hong Tien Dong, village

doctor who has lived in the area all his life.

" Before, in this area, the environment was quite clean.

" Now it has become like this. "

In the late 1990s, a Canadian study tested soil, pond water, fish and

duck tissue, as well as human blood samples, and found dangerously

high levels of dioxin travelling up the food chain to humans.

Dioxin concentrations have been found to be 13 times higher than

average in the soil of affected areas, and, in human fat tissue, 20

times as high.

A Japanese study, comparing areas sprayed with those that were not,

found children were three times more likely to be born with cleft

palates, or extra fingers and toes.

There are eight times as many hernias in such children, and three

times as many born with mental disabilities.

In 2001, scientists found that people living in an Agent

Orange " hotspot " at Binh-Hoa near Ho Chi Minh City have 200 times the

background amount of dioxin in their bloodstreams.

Humanitarian opportunity

America " normalised " relations with Vietnam 10 years ago, and the

country has now embraced the free market.

No representative of the US government in Vietnam would talk to One

Planet about Agent Orange.

However, in 1984, chemical companies that manufactured the Agent paid

$180m into a fund for United States veterans following a lawsuit.

They did not, however, admit any wrongdoing.

Meanwhile in 2004 - at the same time Mr Nguyen first brought his

lawsuit - a joint-US-Vietnamese project to examine the long-term

genetic impact of Agent Orange was cancelled.

US Vietnam veterans won money from Agent Orange makers in 1984

Some Americans in Vietnam fear that the legacy of Agent Orange is

overshadowing the new friendship between the two countries.

" Many of the other obstacles have been dealt with - trade and

exchange and diplomatic relations, " said Andrew Wells-Dang, from the

Fund For Reconciliation And Development - an American organisation

set up in the 1980s with the aim of improving relations between the

countries.

He pointed out that the US has provided funding for clearing mines

that it dropped on Vietnam during the war.

" We think the US should do the same with Agent Orange, " he added.

" It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of

people in Vietnam.

" We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take humanitarian

action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the countries. "

May 5, 2005

Anyone ever see any explanation of why they added to 2-4-D instead of just

using it by itself?

As to the question, " We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take

humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the

countries, " just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going to

get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about more

money. Always more money.

Personally, I'm being taxed to death and am tired of all the hands out and

tired of our politicians making stupid decisions that keep taking more and

more money out of my pocket.

Cold as it may sound, I think it is time we started spending some of that

money here at home! We have elderly doing without food so they can buy

medication. We have folks on the rez who die from the cold every year

because they don't even have heat. The list is long and I'm tired of all

the money going to Israel and a bunch of other stupid things!

If they want money then go to the world court. Or hire a GOOD lawyer and do

a class action in the name of the children against the manufacturer. Put

the idiots out of business but stop expecting me, as a taxpayer, to fund all

this stuff.

Lynda

-

heartwerk <heartwork

Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:37 PM

BBC website - Agent Orange

> The legacy of Agent Orange

>

> Vietnam doctors believe the effects of Agent Orange are ongoing

> Thirty years after hostilities ended between the US and Vietnam,

> relations remain strained by one of America's most notorious actions,

> the use of the chemical Agent Orange.

> The Vietnamese believe that the powerful weed killer - the use of

> which was intended to destroy crops and jungle providing cover for

> the Vietcong - is responsible for massively high instances of genetic

> defects in areas that were sprayed.

>

> Nguyen Trong Nhan, from the Vietnam Association Of Victims Of Agent

> Orange and a former president of Vietnamese Red Cross, believes the

> use of Agent Orange was a " war crime " .

>

> He told BBC World Service's One Planet programme that Vietnam's

> poverty was a direct result of the use of Agent Orange.

>

> " They are the poorest and the most vulnerable people - and that is

> why Vietnam is a very poor country, " he said.

>

> " We help the people who are victims of the Agent Orange and the

> dioxins, but the capacity of our government is very limited. "

>

> Contaminated areas

>

> Campaigners such as Mr Nguyen believe they have been left with little

> choice but to resort to legal action, and in 2004 took the chemical

> companies that produced Agent Orange to court in the US.

>

> But last month an American Federal District Judge dismissed the case

> on the grounds that use of the defoliant did not violate

> international law at the time. An appeal has been lodged against this

> decision.

>

> The US sprayed 80m litres of poisonous chemicals during Operation

> Ranchhand. There were many Agents used, including Pink, Green and

> White, but Agent Orange was used the most - 45m litres sprayed over a

> 10th of Vietnam.

>

> It was also used - mostly in secret - over parts of neighbouring

> Cambodia.

>

> It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of

> people in Vietnam

>

> Andrew Wells-Dang, Fund for Reconciliation and Development

> But Agent Orange in particular was laced with dioxins - extremely

> toxic to humans. Dioxins accumulate in the body to cause cancers.

> Anyone eating or drinking in contaminated areas then receives an even

> higher dose.

>

> Spraying stopped in 1971, after more than 6,000 missions and growing

> public disquiet.

>

> But the ground in many areas of Vietnam remains contaminated by Agent

> Orange. A number of people in these areas believe they are victims of

> the chemical.

>

> One woman said the herbicide had caused a skin disease which gave

> her " great suffering " .

>

> " If the US and Vietnamese governments could care for people like me,

> that would be comforting, " she added.

>

> Another man said his legs have " wasted away " as a result of Agent

> Orange.

>

> " When I realise I have been contaminated with poisonous chemicals,

> and the US government hasn't done anything to help, I feel very sad,

> and it makes me cry, " he added.

>

> " Now I always get severe headaches. My first child has just died - he

> had physical deformities. The second one is having headaches like

> me. "

>

> Cancers and disease

>

> Food and supplies are still delivered to victims of Agent Orange.

> Many were not born when the US sprayed the area - but there is strong

> evidence the chemicals are still having an effect.

>

> A disproportionately large number of children in the areas affected

> are born with defects, both mental and physical. Many are highly

> susceptible to cancers and disease.

>

> And Vietnamese doctors are convinced Agent Orange is to blame.

>

> Agent Orange was intended to defoliate the jungle

> " This is due to the US sprayings, " said Dr Hong Tien Dong, village

> doctor who has lived in the area all his life.

>

> " Before, in this area, the environment was quite clean.

>

> " Now it has become like this. "

>

> In the late 1990s, a Canadian study tested soil, pond water, fish and

> duck tissue, as well as human blood samples, and found dangerously

> high levels of dioxin travelling up the food chain to humans.

>

> Dioxin concentrations have been found to be 13 times higher than

> average in the soil of affected areas, and, in human fat tissue, 20

> times as high.

>

> A Japanese study, comparing areas sprayed with those that were not,

> found children were three times more likely to be born with cleft

> palates, or extra fingers and toes.

>

> There are eight times as many hernias in such children, and three

> times as many born with mental disabilities.

>

> In 2001, scientists found that people living in an Agent

> Orange " hotspot " at Binh-Hoa near Ho Chi Minh City have 200 times the

> background amount of dioxin in their bloodstreams.

>

> Humanitarian opportunity

>

> America " normalised " relations with Vietnam 10 years ago, and the

> country has now embraced the free market.

>

> No representative of the US government in Vietnam would talk to One

> Planet about Agent Orange.

>

> However, in 1984, chemical companies that manufactured the Agent paid

> $180m into a fund for United States veterans following a lawsuit.

> They did not, however, admit any wrongdoing.

>

> Meanwhile in 2004 - at the same time Mr Nguyen first brought his

> lawsuit - a joint-US-Vietnamese project to examine the long-term

> genetic impact of Agent Orange was cancelled.

>

> US Vietnam veterans won money from Agent Orange makers in 1984

> Some Americans in Vietnam fear that the legacy of Agent Orange is

> overshadowing the new friendship between the two countries.

>

> " Many of the other obstacles have been dealt with - trade and

> exchange and diplomatic relations, " said Andrew Wells-Dang, from the

> Fund For Reconciliation And Development - an American organisation

> set up in the 1980s with the aim of improving relations between the

> countries.

>

> He pointed out that the US has provided funding for clearing mines

> that it dropped on Vietnam during the war.

>

> " We think the US should do the same with Agent Orange, " he added.

>

> " It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of

> people in Vietnam.

>

> " We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take humanitarian

> action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the countries. "

>

To send an email to -

>

May 5, 2005

we always b*tch about taxes here..yada yada yada

sorry..Europe taxes are at a MUCH higher rate...

you can't have infrastructure w/o taxes

per capita, we spend a pittance on worldwide issues, especially compared to countries like Norway...

now..if we spent our funds on helping each other, not just ourselves..we could be a shining beacon

instead, it all goes to the military and *smart* bombs..while we we dumb down of skool books

brilliant.... Lynda May 5, 2005 8:43 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Anyone ever see any explanation of why they added to 2-4-D instead of justusing it by itself?As to the question, "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to takehumanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between thecountries," just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going toget any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about moremoney. Always more money.Personally, I'm being taxed to death and am tired of all the hands out andtired of our politicians making stupid decisions that keep taking more andmore money out of my pocket.Cold as it may sound, I think it is time we started spending some of thatmoney here at home! We have elderly doing without food so they can buymedication. We have folks on the rez who die from the cold every yearbecause they don't even have heat. The list is long and I'm tired of allthe money going to Israel and a bunch of other stupid things!If they want money then go to the world court. Or hire a GOOD lawyer and doa class action in the name of the children against the manufacturer. Putthe idiots out of business but stop expecting me, as a taxpayer, to fund allthis stuff.Lynda-heartwerk <heartworkWednesday, May 04, 2005 11:37 PM BBC website - Agent Orange> The legacy of Agent Orange>> Vietnam doctors believe the effects of Agent Orange are ongoing> Thirty years after hostilities ended between the US and Vietnam,> relations remain strained by one of America's most notorious actions,> the use of the chemical Agent Orange.> The Vietnamese believe that the powerful weed killer - the use of> which was intended to destroy crops and jungle providing cover for> the Vietcong - is responsible for massively high instances of genetic> defects in areas that were sprayed.>> Nguyen Trong Nhan, from the Vietnam Association Of Victims Of Agent> Orange and a former president of Vietnamese Red Cross, believes the> use of Agent Orange was a "war crime".>> He told BBC World Service's One Planet programme that Vietnam's> poverty was a direct result of the use of Agent Orange.>> "They are the poorest and the most vulnerable people - and that is> why Vietnam is a very poor country," he said.>> "We help the people who are victims of the Agent Orange and the> dioxins, but the capacity of our government is very limited.">> Contaminated areas>> Campaigners such as Mr Nguyen believe they have been left with little> choice but to resort to legal action, and in 2004 took the chemical> companies that produced Agent Orange to court in the US.>> But last month an American Federal District Judge dismissed the case> on the grounds that use of the defoliant did not violate> international law at the time. An appeal has been lodged against this> decision.>> The US sprayed 80m litres of poisonous chemicals during Operation> Ranchhand. There were many Agents used, including Pink, Green and> White, but Agent Orange was used the most - 45m litres sprayed over a> 10th of Vietnam.>> It was also used - mostly in secret - over parts of neighbouring> Cambodia.>>> It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of> people in Vietnam>> Andrew Wells-Dang, Fund for Reconciliation and Development> But Agent Orange in particular was laced with dioxins - extremely> toxic to humans. Dioxins accumulate in the body to cause cancers.> Anyone eating or drinking in contaminated areas then receives an even> higher dose.>> Spraying stopped in 1971, after more than 6,000 missions and growing> public disquiet.>> But the ground in many areas of Vietnam remains contaminated by Agent> Orange. A number of people in these areas believe they are victims of> the chemical.>> One woman said the herbicide had caused a skin disease which gave> her "great suffering".>> "If the US and Vietnamese governments could care for people like me,> that would be comforting," she added.>> Another man said his legs have "wasted away" as a result of Agent> Orange.>> "When I realise I have been contaminated with poisonous chemicals,> and the US government hasn't done anything to help, I feel very sad,> and it makes me cry," he added.>> "Now I always get severe headaches. My first child has just died - he> had physical deformities. The second one is having headaches like> me.">> Cancers and disease>> Food and supplies are still delivered to victims of Agent Orange.> Many were not born when the US sprayed the area - but there is strong> evidence the chemicals are still having an effect.>> A disproportionately large number of children in the areas affected> are born with defects, both mental and physical. Many are highly> susceptible to cancers and disease.>> And Vietnamese doctors are convinced Agent Orange is to blame.>>> Agent Orange was intended to defoliate the jungle> "This is due to the US sprayings," said Dr Hong Tien Dong, village> doctor who has lived in the area all his life.>> "Before, in this area, the environment was quite clean.>> "Now it has become like this.">> In the late 1990s, a Canadian study tested soil, pond water, fish and> duck tissue, as well as human blood samples, and found dangerously> high levels of dioxin travelling up the food chain to humans.>> Dioxin concentrations have been found to be 13 times higher than> average in the soil of affected areas, and, in human fat tissue, 20> times as high.>> A Japanese study, comparing areas sprayed with those that were not,> found children were three times more likely to be born with cleft> palates, or extra fingers and toes.>> There are eight times as many hernias in such children, and three> times as many born with mental disabilities.>> In 2001, scientists found that people living in an Agent> Orange "hotspot" at Binh-Hoa near Ho Chi Minh City have 200 times the> background amount of dioxin in their bloodstreams.>> Humanitarian opportunity>> America "normalised" relations with Vietnam 10 years ago, and the> country has now embraced the free market.>> No representative of the US government in Vietnam would talk to One> Planet about Agent Orange.>> However, in 1984, chemical companies that manufactured the Agent paid> $180m into a fund for United States veterans following a lawsuit.> They did not, however, admit any wrongdoing.>> Meanwhile in 2004 - at the same time Mr Nguyen first brought his> lawsuit - a joint-US-Vietnamese project to examine the long-term> genetic impact of Agent Orange was cancelled.>>> US Vietnam veterans won money from Agent Orange makers in 1984> Some Americans in Vietnam fear that the legacy of Agent Orange is> overshadowing the new friendship between the two countries.>> "Many of the other obstacles have been dealt with - trade and> exchange and diplomatic relations," said Andrew Wells-Dang, from the> Fund For Reconciliation And Development - an American organisation> set up in the 1980s with the aim of improving relations between the> countries.>> He pointed out that the US has provided funding for clearing mines> that it dropped on Vietnam during the war.>> "We think the US should do the same with Agent Orange," he added.>> "It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of> people in Vietnam.>> "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take humanitarian> action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the countries.">>>>>>>>>>> To send an email to - >

May 5, 2005

Sorry to say we agree with you Fraggle - the US government is not held in high esteem here in many quarters (neither is the UK government)

Jo

we always b*tch about taxes here..yada yada yada

sorry..Europe taxes are at a MUCH higher rate...

you can't have infrastructure w/o taxes

per capita, we spend a pittance on worldwide issues, especially compared to countries like Norway...

now..if we spent our funds on helping each other, not just ourselves..we could be a shining beacon

instead, it all goes to the military and *smart* bombs..while we we dumb down of skool books

brilliant.... Lynda May 5, 2005 8:43 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Anyone ever see any explanation of why they added to 2-4-D instead of justusing it by itself?As to the question, "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to takehumanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between thecountries," just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going toget any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about moremoney. Always more money.Personally, I'm being taxed to death and am tired of all the hands out andtired of our politicians making stupid decisions that keep taking more andmore money out of my pocket.Cold as it may sound, I think it is time we started spending some of thatmoney here at home! We have elderly doing without food so they can buymedication. We have folks on the rez who die from the cold every yearbecause they don't even have heat. The list is long and I'm tired of allthe money going to Israel and a bunch of other stupid things!If they want money then go to the world court. Or hire a GOOD lawyer and doa class action in the name of the children against the manufacturer. Putthe idiots out of business but stop expecting me, as a taxpayer, to fund allthis stuff.Lynda-heartwerk <heartworkWednesday, May 04, 2005 11:37 PM BBC website - Agent Orange> The legacy of Agent Orange>> Vietnam doctors believe the effects of Agent Orange are ongoing> Thirty years after hostilities ended between the US and Vietnam ,> relations remain strained by one of America's most notorious actions,> the use of the chemical Agent Orange.> The Vietnamese believe that the powerful weed killer - the use of> which was intended to destroy crops and jungle providing cover for> the Vietcong - is responsible for massively high instances of genetic> defects in areas that were sprayed.>> Nguyen Trong Nhan, from the Vietnam Association Of Victims Of Agent> Orange and a former president of Vietnamese Red Cross, believes the> use of Agent Orange was a "war crime".>> He told BBC World Service's One Planet programme that Vietnam's> poverty was a direct result of the use of Agent Orange.>> "They are the poorest and the most vulnerable people - and that is> why Vietnam is a very poor country," he said.>> "We help the people who are victims of the Agent Orange and the> dioxins, but the capacity of our government is very limited.">> Contaminated areas>> Campaigners such as Mr Nguyen believe they have been left with little> choice but to resort to legal action, and in 2004 took the chemical> companies that produced Agent Orange to court in the US.>> But last month an American Federal District Judge dismissed the case> on the grounds that use of the defoliant did not violate> international law at the time. An appeal has been lodged against this> decision.>> The US sprayed 80m litres of poisonous chemicals during Operation> Ranchhand. There were many Agents used, including Pink, Green and> White, but Agent Orange was used the most - 45m litres sprayed over a> 10th of Vietnam.>> It was also used - mostly in secret - over parts of neighbouring> Cambodia.>>> It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of> people in Vietnam>> Andrew Wells-Dang, Fund for Reconciliation and Development> But Agent Orange in particular was laced with dioxins - extremely> toxic to humans. Dioxins accumulate in the body to cause cancers.> Anyone eating or drinking in contaminated areas then receives an even> higher dose.>> Spraying stopped in 1971, after more than 6,000 missions and growing> public disquiet.>> But the ground in many areas of Vietnam remains contaminated by Agent> Orange. A number of people in these areas believe they are victims of> the chemical.>> One woman said the herbicide had caused a skin disease which gave> her "great suffering".>> "If the US and Vietnamese governments could care for people like me,> that would be comforting," she added.>> Another man said his legs have "wasted away" as a result of Agent> Orange.>> "When I realise I have been contaminated with poisonous chemicals,> and the US government hasn't done anything to help, I feel very sad,> and it makes me cry," he added.>> "Now I always get severe headaches. My first child has just died - he> had physical deformities. The second one is having headaches like> me.">> Cancers and disease>> Food and supplies are still delivered to victims of Agent Orange.> Many were not born when the US sprayed the area - but there is strong> evidence the chemicals are still having an effect.>> A disproportionately large number of children in the areas affected> are born with defects, both mental and physical. Many are highly> susceptible to cancers and disease.>> And Vietnamese doctors are convinced Agent Orange is to blame.>>> Agent Orange was intended to defoliate the j ungle> "This is due to the US sprayings," said Dr Hong Tien Dong, village> doctor who has lived in the area all his life.>> "Before, in this area, the environment was quite clean.>> "Now it has become like this.">> In the late 1990s, a Canadian study tested soil, pond water, fish and> duck tissue, as well as human blood samples, and found dangerously> high levels of dioxin travelling up the food chain to humans.>> Dioxin concentrations have been found to be 13 times higher than> average in the soil of affected areas, and, in human fat tissue, 20> times as high.>> A Japanese study, comparing areas sprayed with those that were not,> found children were three times more likely to be born with cleft> palates, or extra fingers and toes.>> There are eight times as many hernias in such children, and three> times as many born with mental disabilities.>> In 2001, scientists found that people living in an Agent> Orange "hotspot" at Binh-Hoa near Ho Chi Minh City have 200 times the> background amount of dioxin in their bloodstreams.>> Humanitarian opportunity>> America "normalised" relations with Vietnam 10 years ago, and the> country has now embraced the free market.>> No representative of the US government in Vietnam would talk to One> Planet about Agent Orange.>> However, in 1984, chemical companies that manufactured the Agent paid> $180m into a fund for United States veterans following a lawsuit.> They did not, however, admit any wrongdoing.>> Meanwhile in 2004 - at the same time Mr Nguyen first brought his> lawsuit - a joint-US-Vietnamese project to examine the long-term> genetic impact of Agent Orange was cancelled.>>> US Vietnam veterans won mone y from Agent Orange makers in 1984> Some Americans in Vietnam fear that the legacy of Agent Orange is> overshadowing the new friendship between the two countries.>> "Many of the other obstacles have been dealt with - trade and> exchange and diplomatic relations," said Andrew Wells-Dang, from the> Fund For Reconciliation And Development - an American organisation> set up in the 1980s with the aim of improving relations between the> countries.>> He pointed out that the US has provided funding for clearing mines> that it dropped on Vietnam during the war.>> "We think the US should do the same with Agent Orange," he added.>> "It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of> people in Vietnam.>> "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take humanitarian> action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the countries.">>>>>>>>>>> To send an email to - >

May 5, 2005

The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxes for

that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as the

US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over the

world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the consequences

and help their victims.

Jo

>

> As to the question, " We would see this as an opportunity for the US to

take

> humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the

> countries, " just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going

to

> get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about more

> money. Always more money.

May 5, 2005

thats obviously because you hate our fweedoms

sorry..did that come out overly bitter and sarcastic?

whoops

yeah..i know our government is falling further and further in the eyes in the rest of the world

nowhere to go but up after this, right?

right?

*sigh*

Jo Cwazy May 5, 2005 10:42 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

Sorry to say we agree with you Fraggle - the US government is not held in high esteem here in many quarters (neither is the UK government)

Jo

And Bugs Bunny is a friend of mine

Eating him I'd feel like Frankenstein

Eating flesh seems pretty foul to me

May 5, 2005

oh..wots a few trillion dollars....

http://www.sensiblepriorities.org/budget_analysis.htm-----Original Message----- Jo Cwazy May 5, 2005 10:45 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxes forthat - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as theUS caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over theworld) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the consequencesand help their victims.Jo>> As to the question, "We would see this as an opportunity for the US totake> humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the> countries," just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is goingto> get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about more> money. Always more money.To send an email to -

May 5, 2005

It's only your government - not your people, who are hoodwinked by the government, just as we are by ours.

Jo

-

fraggle

Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:55 PM

Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

thats obviously because you hate our fweedoms

sorry..did that come out overly bitter and sarcastic?

whoops

yeah..i know our government is falling further and further in the eyes in the rest of the world

nowhere to go but up after this, right?

right?

*sigh*

Jo Cwazy May 5, 2005 10:42 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

Sorry to say we agree with you Fraggle - the US government is not held in high esteem here in many quarters (neither is the UK government)

Jo

To send an email to -

And Bugs Bunny is a friend of mine

Eating him I'd feel like Frankenstein

Eating flesh seems pretty foul to me

May 5, 2005

And the crazy thing is that the US & UK between them have the resources to feed everyone in the world without trying... so you have to wonder why people are starving *anywhere* (Well, we know why, but you get my drift!)

BB

Peter

-

fraggle

Thursday, May 05, 2005 5:47 PM

Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

we always b*tch about taxes here..yada yada yada

sorry..Europe taxes are at a MUCH higher rate...

you can't have infrastructure w/o taxes

per capita, we spend a pittance on worldwide issues, especially compared to countries like Norway...

now..if we spent our funds on helping each other, not just ourselves..we could be a shining beacon

instead, it all goes to the military and *smart* bombs..while we we dumb down of skool books

brilliant.... Lynda May 5, 2005 8:43 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Anyone ever see any explanation of why they added to 2-4-D instead of justusing it by itself?As to the question, "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to takehumanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between thecountries," just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going toget any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about moremoney. Always more money.Personally, I'm being taxed to death and am tired of all the hands out andtired of our politicians making stupid decisions that keep taking more andmore money out of my pocket.Cold as it may sound, I think it is time we started spending some of thatmoney here at home! We have elderly doing without food so they can buymedication. We have folks on the rez who die from the cold every yearbecause they don't even have heat. The list is long and I'm tired of allthe money going to Israel and a bunch of other stupid things!If they want money then go to the world court. Or hire a GOOD lawyer and doa class action in the name of the children against the manufacturer. Putthe idiots out of business but stop expecting me, as a taxpayer, to fund allthis stuff.Lynda-heartwerk <heartworkWednesday, May 04, 2005 11:37 PM BBC website - Agent Orange> The legacy of Agent Orange>> Vietnam doctors believe the effects of Agent Orange are ongoing> Thirty years after hostilities ended between the US and Vietnam ,> relations remain strained by one of America's most notorious actions,> the use of the chemical Agent Orange.> The Vietnamese believe that the powerful weed killer - the use of> which was intended to destroy crops and jungle providing cover for> the Vietcong - is responsible for massively high instances of genetic> defects in areas that were sprayed.>> Nguyen Trong Nhan, from the Vietnam Association Of Victims Of Agent> Orange and a former president of Vietnamese Red Cross, believes the> use of Agent Orange was a "war crime".>> He told BBC World Service's One Planet programme that Vietnam's> poverty was a direct result of the use of Agent Orange.>> "They are the poorest and the most vulnerable people - and that is> why Vietnam is a very poor country," he said.>> "We help the people who are victims of the Agent Orange and the> dioxins, but the capacity of our government is very limited.">> Contaminated areas>> Campaigners such as Mr Nguyen believe they have been left with little> choice but to resort to legal action, and in 2004 took the chemical> companies that produced Agent Orange to court in the US.>> But last month an American Federal District Judge dismissed the case> on the grounds that use of the defoliant did not violate> international law at the time. An appeal has been lodged against this> decision.>> The US sprayed 80m litres of poisonous chemicals during Operation> Ranchhand. There were many Agents used, including Pink, Green and> White, but Agent Orange was used the most - 45m litres sprayed over a> 10th of Vietnam.>> It was also used - mostly in secret - over parts of neighbouring> Cambodia.>>> It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of> people in Vietnam>> Andrew Wells-Dang, Fund for Reconciliation and Development> But Agent Orange in particular was laced with dioxins - extremely> toxic to humans. Dioxins accumulate in the body to cause cancers.> Anyone eating or drinking in contaminated areas then receives an even> higher dose.>> Spraying stopped in 1971, after more than 6,000 missions and growing> public disquiet.>> But the ground in many areas of Vietnam remains contaminated by Agent> Orange. A number of people in these areas believe they are victims of> the chemical.>> One woman said the herbicide had caused a skin disease which gave> her "great suffering".>> "If the US and Vietnamese governments could care for people like me,> that would be comforting," she added.>> Another man said his legs have "wasted away" as a result of Agent> Orange.>> "When I realise I have been contaminated with poisonous chemicals,> and the US government hasn't done anything to help, I feel very sad,> and it makes me cry," he added.>> "Now I always get severe headaches. My first child has just died - he> had physical deformities. The second one is having headaches like> me.">> Cancers and disease>> Food and supplies are still delivered to victims of Agent Orange.> Many were not born when the US sprayed the area - but there is strong> evidence the chemicals are still having an effect.>> A disproportionately large number of children in the areas affected> are born with defects, both mental and physical. Many are highly> susceptible to cancers and disease.>> And Vietnamese doctors are convinced Agent Orange is to blame.>>> Agent Orange was intended to defoliate the j ungle> "This is due to the US sprayings," said Dr Hong Tien Dong, village> doctor who has lived in the area all his life.>> "Before, in this area, the environment was quite clean.>> "Now it has become like this.">> In the late 1990s, a Canadian study tested soil, pond water, fish and> duck tissue, as well as human blood samples, and found dangerously> high levels of dioxin travelling up the food chain to humans.>> Dioxin concentrations have been found to be 13 times higher than> average in the soil of affected areas, and, in human fat tissue, 20> times as high.>> A Japanese study, comparing areas sprayed with those that were not,> found children were three times more likely to be born with cleft> palates, or extra fingers and toes.>> There are eight times as many hernias in such children, and three> times as many born with mental disabilities.>> In 2001, scientists found that people living in an Agent> Orange "hotspot" at Binh-Hoa near Ho Chi Minh City have 200 times the> background amount of dioxin in their bloodstreams.>> Humanitarian opportunity>> America "normalised" relations with Vietnam 10 years ago, and the> country has now embraced the free market.>> No representative of the US government in Vietnam would talk to One> Planet about Agent Orange.>> However, in 1984, chemical companies that manufactured the Agent paid> $180m into a fund for United States veterans following a lawsuit.> They did not, however, admit any wrongdoing.>> Meanwhile in 2004 - at the same time Mr Nguyen first brought his> lawsuit - a joint-US-Vietnamese project to examine the long-term> genetic impact of Agent Orange was cancelled.>>> US Vietnam veterans won mone y from Agent Orange makers in 1984> Some Americans in Vietnam fear that the legacy of Agent Orange is> overshadowing the new friendship between the two countries.>> "Many of the other obstacles have been dealt with - trade and> exchange and diplomatic relations," said Andrew Wells-Dang, from the> Fund For Reconciliation And Development - an American organisation> set up in the 1980s with the aim of improving relations between the> countries.>> He pointed out that the US has provided funding for clearing mines> that it dropped on Vietnam during the war.>> "We think the US should do the same with Agent Orange," he added.>> "It's not going to go away, because it affects a huge number of> people in Vietnam.>> "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to take humanitarian> action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the countries.">>>>>>>>>>> To send an email to - >

May 5, 2005

Hi EveryoneMaybe you could help with this request please. Sam is on the Vegetarian Society list that I also belong to.Many thanks.Jo-"Sam McCreesh" <sam<VegSoc-TalkThursday, May 05, 2005 6:30 PMPlease help me with my GCSE project> Hi everyone,>> I am starting my major project for GCSE Graphic Design and my topic isVegan> Coffee Shops. As part of this I have to conduct a public survey to findout> different reasons why people would come to a vegan coffee shop and what> they’d expect from it.>> I’d be extremely grateful if you’d be able to spend a few minutesfilling> in the short survey below and returning it to me at> sam by the end of the weekend. Doing so would> really help me with my project and GCSE work.>> Thanks (in advance) for your help!!>> Best wishes,> Sam>> ========================================================================>> Vegan Coffee Shop | Public Questionnaire> Please delete all responses leaving one remaining response that is> appropriate to you and specify answer where asked - many thanks.>> 1. How often do you eat out?>> Once a week □ Twice a week □ More than twice a week □ Every day □>> 2. What type of food do you eat regularly?>> Fast (convenience) food □ Snacks □ Healthy options □ Anything available> □>> 3. Do you…>> Follow a Vegetarian diet □ or Vegan diet □ Eat meat □ Have a foodallergy> (please specify any foods or food groups that you are allergic to): □>> 4. Would you eat vegetarian or vegan food because…>> It was available □ It was available and looked nice □ It was the onlyfood> available □ You’re vegetarian or vegan □ You were with someone who is> vegetarian/vegan □>> 5. When eating out are you more likely to…>> Eat in □ Take away □ Use home delivery if available □>> 6. What do you purchase most often when eating out?>> Light meal (e.g. sandwich) □ Snack (e.g. piece of cake or packed ofcrisps)> □> Main meal (e.g. jacket potato or other dish) □ Hot drinks □ Cold drinks□>> 7. When eating out, how do you decide where to eat?>> Local restaurant guide □ Recommendation/word of mouth □ Drop in ifpassing> by □> Yellow pages □ Website □ Flyer □ Magazine □ Local newspaper □>> 8. Have you heard of any of the following organisations?>> The Vegetarian Society promoting the health benefits of a vegetarian diet> and providing support □> The Vegan Society the health benefits of a vegan diet and providingsupport> □> Vegetarians International Voice for Animals (Viva!) Exposing andcampaigning> against factory farming and promoting the vegetarian and vegan diets □>> 9. Have you read any of the following publications>> The Vegan Magazine produced by The Vegan Society □> The Vegetarian Magazine produced by The Vegetarian Society □> Viva! Life Magazine produced by Viva! Campaigns □>>> Finally please tell us a bit about yourself…(entirely optional!!)>> Full Name (including Forename and Surname):> Age range: under10 □ 11-16 □ 17-21 □ 22-25 □ 26-35 □ 36-45 □ 46-55□> 56-60 □ over60 □> Area of residence (e.g. nearest town and county):>> Many thanks for your time and help.>>>

May 6, 2005

now Jo,

not that my love for the ole USA is very high right now but......

most of the global problems have deep deep roots that go back to prior to WWI and who was running the world then??

the UK. (no need for a history lesson) to be fair it is a Western problem when you talk about global issues.

the eastern countries have only recently joined the west in helping accelerate our destruction.

so maybe WE ALL should take Responsibility for the consequences and help the victims.

all the best

Craig

On Behalf Of Jo CwazyFriday, May 06, 2005 1:45 AM Subject: Re: BBC website - Agent OrangeThe money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxes forthat - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as theUS caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over theworld) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the consequencesand help their victims.Jo>> As to the question, "We would see this as an opportunity for the US totake> humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the> countries," just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is goingto> get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about more> money. Always more money.

May 6, 2005

Now Craig

If you read my posts I think you will see the UK government shares

the blame in all of them - so there is no need for a history lesson

thanks.

Jo

, " Craig Dearth " <cd39@e...> wrote:

> now Jo,

> not that my love for the ole USA is very high right now

but......

> most of the global problems have deep deep roots that go back to

prior to

> WWI and who was running the world then??

> the UK. (no need for a history lesson) to be fair it is a Western

problem

> when you talk about global issues.

> the eastern countries have only recently joined the west in helping

> accelerate our destruction.

> so maybe WE ALL should take Responsibility for the consequences and

help the

> victims.

> all the best

> Craig

>

On

> Behalf Of Jo Cwazy

> Friday, May 06, 2005 1:45 AM

>

> Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

>

> The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying

taxes for

> that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing

as the

> US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all

over the

> world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the

consequences

> and help their victims.

>

> Jo

>

> >

> > As to the question, " We would see this as an opportunity for the

US to

> take

> > humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between

the

> > countries, " just where in the world does anyone think the U.S.

is going

> to

> > get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking

about more

> > money. Always more money.

May 6, 2005

Naughty, naughty, Jo. The UK was at the " mess with the world " business long

before the U.S. and they haven't fixed one single thing they broke. If

they hadn't been " messing with the world,, millions of Native Americans

wouldn't be dead and the U.S. as it is, modeled after jolly ol' England,

wouldn't exist.

In fact, the majority of our foreign aid wouldn't be going to Israel if

y'all on that side of the pond had done the job you were supposed to do back

beginning in the 20s.

As to our military budget, a large % of it is a form of foreign aid along

with the $21 BILLION the U.S. already " formally " spends. Tack onto that the

hundreds of billions in foreign loans that are never repaid for, hmmmm,

repairing countries/cities that were bombed by the Germans during WWII. How

short one's memory is.

The U.S. is no different than the rest of the colonizers or war mongers and

it is really pretty silly to call names, remember the pot and the kettle and

people who live in glass house and throwing rocks.

So, when is the UK going to take responsibility for their share of the

genocide in the U.S.?

Lynda, really tired of all the finger pointing when the finger pointers

government certainly aren't any better.

-

Jo Cwazy <heartwork

Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:45 AM

Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

> The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxes

for

> that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as the

> US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over the

> world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the

consequences

> and help their victims.

>

> Jo

May 6, 2005

Jo,

the really sad thing is here we know the UK and the USA are doing all this

and kid brother Australia wants some too. =o[[

Craig

On Behalf Of heartwerkFriday, May 06, 2005 2:30 PM Subject: Re: BBC website - Agent OrangeNow Craig If you read my posts I think you will see the UK government shares the blame in all of them - so there is no need for a history lesson thanks.Jo , "Craig Dearth" <cd39@e...> wrote:> now Jo,> not that my love for the ole USA is very high right now but......> most of the global problems have deep deep roots that go back to prior to> WWI and who was running the world then??> the UK. (no need for a history lesson) to be fair it is a Western problem> when you talk about global issues.> the eastern countries have only recently joined the west in helping> accelerate our destruction.> so maybe WE ALL should take Responsibility for the consequences and help the> victims.> all the best> Craig> > > > On> Behalf Of Jo Cwazy> Friday, May 06, 2005 1:45 AM> > Re: BBC website - Agent Orange> > > The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxes for> that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as the> US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over the> world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the consequences> and help their victims.> > Jo> > > > >> > As to the question, "We would see this as an opportunity for the US to> take> > humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle between the> > countries," just where in the world does anyone think the U.S. is going> to> > get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking about more> > money. Always more money.To send an email to -

May 6, 2005

Hi Craig

I don't think they will let you have a share :-)

Jo

, " Craig Dearth " <cd39@e...> wrote:

> Jo,

> the really sad thing is here we know the UK and the USA are

doing all

> this

> and kid brother Australia wants some too. =o[[

> Craig

>

On

> Behalf Of heartwerk

> Friday, May 06, 2005 2:30 PM

>

> Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

>

> Now Craig

>

> If you read my posts I think you will see the UK government shares

> the blame in all of them - so there is no need for a history lesson

> thanks.

>

> Jo

>

> , " Craig Dearth " <cd39@e...> wrote:

> > now Jo,

> > not that my love for the ole USA is very high right now

> but......

> > most of the global problems have deep deep roots that go back to

> prior to

> > WWI and who was running the world then??

> > the UK. (no need for a history lesson) to be fair it is a Western

> problem

> > when you talk about global issues.

> > the eastern countries have only recently joined the west in

helping

> > accelerate our destruction.

> > so maybe WE ALL should take Responsibility for the consequences

and

> help the

> > victims.

> > all the best

> > Craig

> >

> On

> > Behalf Of Jo Cwazy

> > Friday, May 06, 2005 1:45 AM

> >

> > Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

> >

> > The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying

> taxes for

> > that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing

> as the

> > US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all

> over the

> > world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the

> consequences

> > and help their victims.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > >

> > > As to the question, " We would see this as an opportunity for the

> US to

> > take

> > > humanitarian action so that it doesn't become an obstacle

between

> the

> > > countries, " just where in the world does anyone think the U.S.

> is going

> > to

> > > get any money to do this? Because that is what we are talking

> about more

> > > money. Always more money.

>

> To send an email to -

>

> --

--------

> ----

>

May 6, 2005

Naughty Naughty Lynda - you are assuming that my emails apply only to

the US when I have clearly said they apply to the UK as well.

Glasshouses and stones do not apply.

As for third world debts - well look it up. It's not the blessing

you think it is Lynda, even though our governments would like you to

think that way.

You make the mistake of getting angry with me when you should be

angry at my government and yours. They are winning the game of

divide and conquer - and you cannot see it.

Jo

, " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote:

> Naughty, naughty, Jo. The UK was at the " mess with the world "

business long

> before the U.S. and they haven't fixed one single thing they

broke. If

> they hadn't been " messing with the world,, millions of Native

Americans

> wouldn't be dead and the U.S. as it is, modeled after jolly ol'

England,

> wouldn't exist.

>

> In fact, the majority of our foreign aid wouldn't be going to

Israel if

> y'all on that side of the pond had done the job you were supposed

to do back

> beginning in the 20s.

>

> As to our military budget, a large % of it is a form of foreign aid

along

> with the $21 BILLION the U.S. already " formally " spends. Tack onto

that the

> hundreds of billions in foreign loans that are never repaid for,

hmmmm,

> repairing countries/cities that were bombed by the Germans during

WWII. How

> short one's memory is.

>

> The U.S. is no different than the rest of the colonizers or war

mongers and

> it is really pretty silly to call names, remember the pot and the

kettle and

> people who live in glass house and throwing rocks.

>

> So, when is the UK going to take responsibility for their share of

the

> genocide in the U.S.?

>

> Lynda, really tired of all the finger pointing when the finger

pointers

> government certainly aren't any better.

> -

> Jo Cwazy <heartwork@c...>

>

> Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:45 AM

> Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

>

> > The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind

paying taxes

> for

> > that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item.

Seeing as the

> > US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all

over the

> > world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the

> consequences

> > and help their victims.

> >

> > Jo

May 6, 2005

Hi Lynda

> Naughty, naughty, Jo. The UK was at the " mess with the world " business

long

> before the U.S. and they haven't fixed one single thing they broke. If

> they hadn't been " messing with the world,, millions of Native Americans

> wouldn't be dead and the U.S. as it is, modeled after jolly ol' England,

> wouldn't exist.

Geez - you *really* have missed the point haven't you. Funny, you didn't

strike me as the nationalstic sort - I thought you were a bit more sensible

than that...

Rather than getting aggressive, perhaps you could suggest what *anyone* on

this list could have done to prevent what the UK government was doing in the

1700s and 1920s - I was born in 1974, so couldn't really do much about any

of this.

The UK government is still doing some bad stuff, and quite a lot of us are

doing what we can (I spend most weekends involved in some sort of protest,

be it animal rights, G8, peace rallies, pro-Kyoto anti-Esso rallies etc.)

None of this takes away from the fact that the US government right now is

one of the most aggressive the world has ever known. This is not the fault

of the American people, only those few who support the US government. I'm

just surprised that you are one of those few!

BB

Peter

May 6, 2005

This is the sort of thing that is annoying, " Seeing as the

> > US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all

over the

> > world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the

> consequences

> > and help their victims. "

And I have left your post attached. You said nothing about anything but the

U.S. You did later reply to someone else that it was a problem with others.

I guess we get tired of the U.S. bashing when most of the countries doing it

are doing as bad OR worse than the U.S.

Unfortunately it would appear that Blair is in again which means the hope

that Alfred E. Newman's evil doppleganger will still have someone

perpetrating the lies about Iraq.

Seems, generally speaking, that the average voter has not sense, in either

country, than a truck load of rutabagas!

Lynda

-

heartwerk <heartwork

Friday, May 06, 2005 4:32 AM

Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

> Naughty Naughty Lynda - you are assuming that my emails apply only to

> the US when I have clearly said they apply to the UK as well.

> Glasshouses and stones do not apply.

>

> As for third world debts - well look it up. It's not the blessing

> you think it is Lynda, even though our governments would like you to

> think that way.

>

> You make the mistake of getting angry with me when you should be

> angry at my government and yours. They are winning the game of

> divide and conquer - and you cannot see it.

>

> Jo

>

> , " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote:

> > Naughty, naughty, Jo. The UK was at the " mess with the world "

> business long

> > before the U.S. and they haven't fixed one single thing they

> broke. If

> > they hadn't been " messing with the world,, millions of Native

> Americans

> > wouldn't be dead and the U.S. as it is, modeled after jolly ol'

> England,

> > wouldn't exist.

> >

> > In fact, the majority of our foreign aid wouldn't be going to

> Israel if

> > y'all on that side of the pond had done the job you were supposed

> to do back

> > beginning in the 20s.

> >

> > As to our military budget, a large % of it is a form of foreign aid

> along

> > with the $21 BILLION the U.S. already " formally " spends. Tack onto

> that the

> > hundreds of billions in foreign loans that are never repaid for,

> hmmmm,

> > repairing countries/cities that were bombed by the Germans during

> WWII. How

> > short one's memory is.

> >

> > The U.S. is no different than the rest of the colonizers or war

> mongers and

> > it is really pretty silly to call names, remember the pot and the

> kettle and

> > people who live in glass house and throwing rocks.

> >

> > So, when is the UK going to take responsibility for their share of

> the

> > genocide in the U.S.?

> >

> > Lynda, really tired of all the finger pointing when the finger

> pointers

> > government certainly aren't any better.

> > -

> > Jo Cwazy <heartwork@c...>

> >

> > Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:45 AM

> > Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

> >

> > > The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind

> paying taxes

> > for

> > > that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item.

> Seeing as the

> > > US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all

> over the

> > > world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for the

> > consequences

> > > and help their victims.

> > >

> > > Jo

>

> To send an email to -

>

May 6, 2005

ah..tsk tsk

see..wot the UK did was quite a long time ago..

sure..they were colonizers and exploiters..and still are, to a certain extent..

but..they certainly are a junior partner to the good ol US o' A today

*waves flag*

i live in today..and while i can find fault in britain(and france and germany and) from years past...well..that was ages ago..

i need to focus on the fun things we are doing today!

gawd,...i love when we talk politics..everyones panties gets all bunced up...

ow..thats sooo uncomfortable....

wedgie....

cheers

and hork lords of love

fraggle Lynda May 6, 2005 12:04 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Naughty, naughty, Jo. The UK was at the "mess with the world" business longbefore the U.S. and they haven't fixed one single thing they broke. Ifthey hadn't been "messing with the world,, millions of Native Americanswouldn't be dead and the U.S. as it is, modeled after jolly ol' England,wouldn't exist.In fact, the majority of our foreign aid wouldn't be going to Israel ify'all on that side of the pond had done the job you were supposed to do backbeginning in the 20s.As to our military budget, a large % of it is a form of foreign aid alongwith the $21 BILLION the U.S. already "formally" spends. Tack onto that thehundreds of billions in foreign loans that are never repaid for, hmmmm,repairing countries/cities that were bombed by the Germans during WWII. Howshort one's memory is.The U.S. is no different than the rest of the colonizers or war mongers andit is really pretty silly to call names, remember the pot and the kettle andpeople who live in glass house and throwing rocks.So, when is the UK going to take responsibility for their share of thegenocide in the U.S.?Lynda, really tired of all the finger pointing when the finger pointersgovernment certainly aren't any better.-Jo Cwazy <heartworkThursday, May 05, 2005 10:45 AMRe: BBC website - Agent Orange> The money could come out of your war budget - dn't you mind paying taxesfor> that - it is probably the governments biggest budget item. Seeing as the> US caused the problem in the first place (along with problems all over the> world) maybe they should just take some responsibility for theconsequences> and help their victims.>> JoTo send an email to -

May 6, 2005

the US is the largest debtor nation in the world....

that aid you were talking about lynda in the pentagon's budget..that is military aid..not like we are pulling them out of poverty

the debt that foreign countries accrue is due to aggression tactics fostered by the IMF and world bank in conjunction with world financial institutions...

the leaders of these countries are told over and over "hey, we'll come in and build this dam, er this highway, and loan you the money"..its set up to aid the largest corporate conglomerates(the money doesn't go to some local construction firm, its always a foreign company, generally a US firm like bechtel)

the country gets this huge boondogle which only benefits a select few...and now the nation is saddled with some huge debt and they can't even pay off the interest, never mind the loan itself...

so the IMF comes in and sez.."ok, since you are falling behind on payments, we are going t ohelp you..you must privatize everything, and only grow certain crops that you can sell, screw feeding yer own ppl"

and it spirals down from there

there is an entire group of people whose job is to go to foriegn countries and convince them that they need to build dams, airports and huge infrastructures that they can't afford...in the biz they are called "economic hit men"

and if the country defaults er decides its not going to pay this outrageous debt...they send in the jackals..the Company, the CIA

and *poof*..the recalcitrate leader is no more

to empire

heartwerk May 6, 2005 4:32 AM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Naughty Naughty Lynda - you are assuming that my emails apply only to the US when I have clearly said they apply to the UK as well. Glasshouses and stones do not apply.As for third world debts - well look it up. It's not the blessing you think it is Lynda, even though our governments would like you to think that way.You make the mistake of getting angry with me when you should be angry at my government and yours. They are winning the game of divide and conquer - and you cannot see it.Jo

And Bugs Bunny is a friend of mine

Eating him I'd feel like Frankenstein

Eating flesh seems pretty foul to me

May 6, 2005

Didn't say I supported the U.S. government. I said I was tired of folks who

live in glass houses forever bashing the U.S.

BTW, Israel is now. What is the UK doing about the War Criminal Sharon?

Lynda

-

Peter <metalscarab

Friday, May 06, 2005 5:18 AM

Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

> Hi Lynda

>

> > Naughty, naughty, Jo. The UK was at the " mess with the world " business

> long

> > before the U.S. and they haven't fixed one single thing they broke. If

> > they hadn't been " messing with the world,, millions of Native Americans

> > wouldn't be dead and the U.S. as it is, modeled after jolly ol' England,

> > wouldn't exist.

>

> Geez - you *really* have missed the point haven't you. Funny, you didn't

> strike me as the nationalstic sort - I thought you were a bit more

sensible

> than that...

>

> Rather than getting aggressive, perhaps you could suggest what *anyone* on

> this list could have done to prevent what the UK government was doing in

the

> 1700s and 1920s - I was born in 1974, so couldn't really do much about any

> of this.

>

> The UK government is still doing some bad stuff, and quite a lot of us are

> doing what we can (I spend most weekends involved in some sort of protest,

> be it animal rights, G8, peace rallies, pro-Kyoto anti-Esso rallies etc.)

>

> None of this takes away from the fact that the US government right now is

> one of the most aggressive the world has ever known. This is not the fault

> of the American people, only those few who support the US government. I'm

> just surprised that you are one of those few!

>

> BB

> Peter

>

> To send an email to -

>

May 6, 2005

i would assume about the same as they are doing to war criminals bush, cheney and rumsy...

ok...where is kristina to yell at me? Lynda May 6, 2005 1:26 PM Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Didn't say I supported the U.S. government. I said I was tired of folks wholive in glass houses forever bashing the U.S.BTW, Israel is now. What is the UK doing about the War Criminal Sharon?Lynda

And Bugs Bunny is a friend of mine

Eating him I'd feel like Frankenstein

Eating flesh seems pretty foul to me

May 6, 2005

Hi Lynda

> BTW, Israel is now. What is the UK doing about the War Criminal Sharon?

Well, it's not giving them anywhere near as much funding as the US

government!

Personally, I avoid buying from stores that give financial support to Israel

such as M & S, and am involved in Dissent.

What are you doing about it?

BB

Peter

May 6, 2005

Hi Lynda

> Seems, generally speaking, that the average voter has not sense, in either

> country, than a truck load of rutabagas!

I think you're a little harsh on the " average " voter... Blair has received

votes from only 22% of the population - not even one in four people. I

believe that Bush received a similar percentage - the problem is not the

avergae voter, but the systems that we have to vote in, which has been

created (in both countries) to ensure that only a select few will ever be

able to get into power, but all the time making it look like everyone has a

say... a great way of preventing popular uprisings, which would have

happened long ago in both countries if people had realised that they were in

a dictatorship!

BB

Peter

May 6, 2005

Making sure the news of what is happening in Palestine gets out there. That

corrections are made when newspapers get it wrong. Correcting folks who

have all kinds of misinformation about the history of the region.

Continually bombarding elected reps about what is happening to real people

in Palestine. Getting out there the info on the atrocities perpetrated by

the Israelis.

And before anyone goes off on this, I don't approve of suicide bombers but I

understand their frustration. Folks from the rez know all about the tactics

being used against the Palestinians.

Lynda

-

Peter <metalscarab

Friday, May 06, 2005 1:37 PM

Re: BBC website - Agent Orange

> Hi Lynda

>

> > BTW, Israel is now. What is the UK doing about the War Criminal Sharon?

>

> Well, it's not giving them anywhere near as much funding as the US

> government!

>

> Personally, I avoid buying from stores that give financial support to

Israel

> such as M & S, and am involved in Dissent.

>

> What are you doing about it?

>

> BB

> Peter

>

> To send an email to -

>

Sign In

BBC website - Agent Orange

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest