Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 A GP prescribed two kinds of tablets for my mothers rheumatoid arthritis. Both have since been withdrawn from use because they are carcinogenic. Strange she died of cancer - or maybe not. >Ian wrote: > remedies to find out which of them work. But remember that tobacco used > to be a traditional remedy for lung problems ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 aspirin was originally derived from the bark of the willow peter hurd <swpgh01 Nov 23, 2004 9:28 AM Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death <html><body> <DIV>Sorry to stick in my two penneth, but isnt a lot of mordern pharmacuticals derived from natural sources ( e.g. asprin from a particular tree?)......</DIV> <DIV>Sorry , just woke up...</DIV> <DIV>The Valley Vegan......<BR><BR><B><I>fraggle <EBbrewpunx</I></B> wrote:</DIV> < Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Hi Ian > traditional medicine is right, and I'm all for going through traditional > remedies to find out which of them work. But remember that tobacco used > to be a traditional remedy for lung problems ... Please could you provide your source for this claim? BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 > aspirin was originally derived from the bark of the willow And, was not penicilin... the " staple " of modern medicine... derived from mouldy bread after someone noticed that people eating it didn't get ill? If it had been up to modern methods, surely penicilin would never have been thought of? BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 we was all taught in skool that Fleming discovered penicillin one day why cleaning up some petri dishes in his sink.. Peter <metalscarab Nov 23, 2004 11:03 AM Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death <html><body> <tt> > aspirin was originally derived from the bark of the willow<BR> <BR> And, was not penicilin... the " staple " of modern medicine... derived from<BR> mouldy bread after someone noticed that people eating it didn't get ill? If<BR> it had been up to modern methods, surely penicilin would never have been<BR> thought of?<BR> <BR> BB<BR> Peter<BR> <BR> </tt> <br><br> <tt> To send an email to - </tt> <br><br> <br> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size= " -1 " color=#003399><b> Sponsor</b></font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF> <td align=center width=470><a href= " http://us.ard./SIG=129vg1fsb/M=296572.5585671.6651487.3001176/D=g\ roups/S=1705129295:HM/EXP=1101323355/A=2343726/R=0/SIG=12ifc6n5j/*http://clk.atd\ mt.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/ & time=1101236955560888 " target= " _blank " > <img src= " http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/vo/vonage/logo_25x25.gif " width= " 25 " height= " 25 " border= " 0 " ></a> <a href= " http://us.ard./SIG=129vg1fsb/M=296572.5585671.6651487.3001176/D=g\ roups/S=1705129295:HM/EXP=1101323355/A=2343726/R=1/SIG=12ifc6n5j/*http://clk.atd\ mt.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/ & time=1101236955560888 " target= " _blank " ><p>Get unlimited calls to</p> <p>U.S./Canada</p> </a> <img src= " http://view.atdmt.com/VON/view/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/ & time=11012369\ 55560888 " width=1 height=1 border=0></td> </tr> <tr><td><img alt= " " width=1 height=1 src= " http://us.adserver./l?M=296572.5585671.6651487.3001176/D=groups/S=\ :HM/A=2343726/rand=583814546 " ></td></tr> </table> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <br> <tt><hr width= " 500 " > <b> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Valley: > Sorry to stick in my two penneth, but isnt a lot of mordern pharmacuticals derived from natural > sources ( e.g. asprin from a > particular tree?)...... Yes. I like natural sources. Natural sources are my friend. I've got absolutely no prejudice against natural sources. I just haven't got a prejudice in favour of natural sources either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 This is a source for a general claim of health benefits for tobacco, rather than specifically for lung problems, but it still shows that tradition can get it seriously wrong: 1535: CANADA: Jacques Cartier encounters natives on the island of Montreal who use tobacco. " In Hochelaga, at the head of the river in Canada, grows a certain herb which is stocked in large quantities by the natives during the summer season, and on which they set great value. Men alone use it, and after drying it in the sun they carry it around their neck wrapped up in the skin of a small animal, like a sac, with a hollow piece of stone or wood. When the spirit moves them, they pulverize this herb and place it at one end, lighting it with a fire brand, and draw on the other end so long that they fill their bodies with smoke until it comes out of their mouth and nostrils as from a chimney. *** They claim it keeps them warm and in good health. *** They never travel without this herb. " --- Smoke and Mirrors, p. 30 Peter wrote: > > Hi Ian > > > traditional medicine is right, and I'm all for going through traditional > > remedies to find out which of them work. But remember that tobacco used > > to be a traditional remedy for lung problems ... > > Please could you provide your source for this claim? > > BB > Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 heartwerk wrote: > > A GP prescribed two kinds of tablets for my mothers rheumatoid > arthritis. Both have since been withdrawn from use because they are > carcinogenic. > I actually think that epidemiology is better than tradition at finding carcinogens. Again, tradition never noticed that tobacco was carcinogenic; if the tablets were traditional remedies, they might never have been withdrawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Hi Ian > 1535: CANADA: Jacques Cartier encounters natives on the island of > Montreal who use tobacco. Thanks for the quote... however, I see several major problems... 1. Many different plants are smoked by the " Native American " tribes, and I see no reference that singles this particular herb as tobacco. 2. There is no reference to a long-standing traditional belief held by a culture - just a belief by a group of natives, with absolutely no reference to how long this belief had been held. For all we know from the quote, it had been thought up 5 years previous. Is there any evidence for a **traditional medicinal use** as opposed to a casual belief by a small number of " primitives " encountered by a " civilised " Westerner. 3. Who is the author? It is always important to understand the bias of an author in historical texts - is he trying to " prove " that native Canadians are stupid? Is he trying to argue that tobacco *is* good for you? What is his / her bias? 4. Is there any corroboration of this quote anywhere else (ideally, the original source would be useful) - something you find frequently is that historical " quotes " are placed either completely out of context, or even changed in substance if an author has a particular argument to present. Considering the title of your source, I suspect this could easily be the case here! 5. Even if the quote is accurate, what was Jacques Cartier's aim... it is very rare for a 16th century text to be a genuine attempt to portray a culture, and normally has some important political or religious aim. A classic amongst 16th century Western texts reporting the activities of the natives of the new world is to show just how primitive the natives are! I wouldn't say that this quote is at all conclusive of your argument, and really needs to be backed up with some far better evidence if you are to claim a genuine historical tradition. BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 I've just had a quick ten minute look at Jacques Cartier to try to find out the viability of his report on smoking... considering that Cartier also claimed the same tribe told him of a " land of gold and jewels " further north which does not exist, I can't help wondering just how seriously anything he reported as being said by them should be taken. In my, admittedly brief, look at the events, I think it is pretty clear that Cartier's report was heavily influenced by his desire to get funding for a further expedition, and therefore any claims of medicinal discoveries should be taken with a fairly hefty pinch of salt! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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