Guest guest Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 These are the kind of stories that make people think we're all idiots. I'm so sad for the child that the parents didn't educate themselves on vegan nutrition or get the baby suitable help when it was ill. I guess we know why she was an _unemployed_ nurse. And to continue the cycle of ignorance, the child protective agency is making them feed their remaining children eggs, dairy & fish. Hey, why not make them take a class on vegan nutrition instead? Rather than the horror stories I hear from some people about family/friends refusing to accept their food choices or worse sneaking animal derivatives into their food, this is the sort of attitude I usually get. " Well, you can't possibly eat that way and be healthy. " Last time I was vegan my general practitioner even insisted on running a full blood panel. Was I anemic? No. Any other problems? No. Bleh. ------------------------------ Vegan parents sentenced over child's death 18 November 2004 PADERBORN - A vegan mother and father whose 15-month-old son starved to death because they disapproved of dairy products, eggs and other animal foods were given a suspended jail sentence of 15 months each by a German court. The unemployed nurse, 36, and her husband, a cabinetmaker, 44, supported an extreme form of vegetarianism that considers all forms of animal fat unsuitable in the human diet. The woman gave birth to a fourth child several weeks ago. The court in the northern city of Paderborn said that by failing to go to a doctor when the breast-fed child became sick, they had committed assault leading to death. The little boy, Leon, began refusing food and died of pneumonia and malnutrition in March. The mother said she noticed Leon was ill two weeks before he died and tried to treat him with rubs of natural oils. She said she had spoon-fed him a " milk substitute " made from almonds and coconuts. Officials in Bad Driburg, the small town where the couple live, said the family had given an undertaking to child-protection officers to feed the three surviving children eggs, fish and dairy products in future and to visit a doctor for check-ups. http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp? subchannel_id=52 & story_id=14080 & name=Vegan+parents+sentenced+over+child' s+death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 note the words *extreme* and such the story is patterned to make it seem that vegans are not just misinformed, but an active danger and we are technically..a danger to the status quo..a danger to deeply ingrained beliefs and superstitions... so, why did the baby die? what did it die of? it doesn't say in the story..and you are left to assume that it died because of it being fed a vegan diet...how did he get pneumonia?? gee..veganism must be a way to catch pneumonia....... along the same lines..note that she breast fed..gee..breast feeding must be dangerous as well...i guess a million yrs of human history is wrong...thank you carnation for saving us all... so, i assume that anytime some child dies of SIDS, they critique the parents habit of eating Mcdonalds right? morgaana Nov 20, 2004 5:15 AM vegan parents sentenced over child's death These are the kind of stories that make people think we're all idiots. I'm so sad for the child that the parents didn't educate themselves on vegan nutrition or get the baby suitable help when it was ill. I guess we know why she was an _unemployed_ nurse. And to continue the cycle of ignorance, the child protective agency is making them feed their remaining children eggs, dairy & fish. Hey, why not make them take a class on vegan nutrition instead? Rather than the horror stories I hear from some people about family/friends refusing to accept their food choices or worse sneaking animal derivatives into their food, this is the sort of attitude I usually get. " Well, you can't possibly eat that way and be healthy. " Last time I was vegan my general practitioner even insisted on running a full blood panel. Was I anemic? No. Any other problems? No. Bleh. ------------------------------ Vegan parents sentenced over child's death 18 November 2004 PADERBORN - A vegan mother and father whose 15-month-old son starved to death because they disapproved of dairy products, eggs and other animal foods were given a suspended jail sentence of 15 months each by a German court. The unemployed nurse, 36, and her husband, a cabinetmaker, 44, supported an extreme form of vegetarianism that considers all forms of animal fat unsuitable in the human diet. The woman gave birth to a fourth child several weeks ago. The court in the northern city of Paderborn said that by failing to go to a doctor when the breast-fed child became sick, they had committed assault leading to death. The little boy, Leon, began refusing food and died of pneumonia and malnutrition in March. The mother said she noticed Leon was ill two weeks before he died and tried to treat him with rubs of natural oils. She said she had spoon-fed him a " milk substitute " made from almonds and coconuts. Officials in Bad Driburg, the small town where the couple live, said the family had given an undertaking to child-protection officers to feed the three surviving children eggs, fish and dairy products in future and to visit a doctor for check-ups. http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp? subchannel_id=52 & story_id=14080 & name=Vegan+parents+sentenced+over+child' s+death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 > Vegan parents sentenced over child's death What *really* annoys me about this is that you will never see the phrase "meat-eating parents sentenced over child's death"... it's pure discrimination against vegans to point out their choice of diet as though it is somehow of significance to the death. BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 BING! give the man a kewpie doll Peter <metalscarab Nov 20, 2004 11:17 AM Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN " > <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content= " text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 " > <META content= " MSHTML 6.00.2600.0 " name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><B>> Vegan parents sentenced over child's death</B></DIV> <DIV><B></B> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What *really* annoys me about this is that you will never see the phrase " meat-eating parents sentenced over child's death " ... it's pure discrimination against vegans to point out their choice of diet as though it is somehow of significance to the death.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>BB</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Peter</FONT></DIV> <br><br> <tt> To send an email to - </tt> <br><br> <br> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size= " -1 " color=#003399><b> Sponsor</b></font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF> <td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0> <tr> <td align=center><font face=arial size=-2></font><br><a href= " http://us.ard./SIG=129fop68o/M=298184.5584357.6650215.3001176/D=g\ roups/S=1705129295:HM/EXP=1101066267/A=2434971/R=0/SIG=11eeoolb0/*http://www.net\ flix.com/Default?mqso=60185400 " alt= " " ><img src= " http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ne/netflix/111704_1104_g_300250a.gif " alt= " click here " width= " 300 " height= " 250 " border= " 0 " ></a></td></tr></table> </td> </tr> <tr><td><img alt= " " width=1 height=1 src= " http://us.adserver./l?M=298184.5584357.6650215.3001176/D=groups/S=\ :HM/A=2434971/rand=944823919 " ></td></tr> </table> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <br> <tt><hr width= " 500 " > <b> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Hi Fraggle > give the man a kewpie doll Thanks... but what's a kewpie doll???? :-) BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 I think it's almost impossible to get a vegan meal in Germany, so I guess they do think it's extreme. Jo - " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx Saturday, November 20, 2004 6:23 PM Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death note the words *extreme* and such the story is patterned to make it seem that vegans are not just misinformed, but an active danger and we are technically..a danger to the status quo..a danger to deeply ingrained beliefs and superstitions... so, why did the baby die? what did it die of? it doesn't say in the story..and you are left to assume that it died because of it being fed a vegan diet...how did he get pneumonia?? gee..veganism must be a way to catch pneumonia....... along the same lines..note that she breast fed..gee..breast feeding must be dangerous as well...i guess a million yrs of human history is wrong...thank you carnation for saving us all... so, i assume that anytime some child dies of SIDS, they critique the parents habit of eating Mcdonalds right? morgaana Nov 20, 2004 5:15 AM vegan parents sentenced over child's death These are the kind of stories that make people think we're all idiots. I'm so sad for the child that the parents didn't educate themselves on vegan nutrition or get the baby suitable help when it was ill. I guess we know why she was an _unemployed_ nurse. And to continue the cycle of ignorance, the child protective agency is making them feed their remaining children eggs, dairy & fish. Hey, why not make them take a class on vegan nutrition instead? Rather than the horror stories I hear from some people about family/friends refusing to accept their food choices or worse sneaking animal derivatives into their food, this is the sort of attitude I usually get. " Well, you can't possibly eat that way and be healthy. " Last time I was vegan my general practitioner even insisted on running a full blood panel. Was I anemic? No. Any other problems? No. Bleh. ------------------------------ Vegan parents sentenced over child's death 18 November 2004 PADERBORN - A vegan mother and father whose 15-month-old son starved to death because they disapproved of dairy products, eggs and other animal foods were given a suspended jail sentence of 15 months each by a German court. The unemployed nurse, 36, and her husband, a cabinetmaker, 44, supported an extreme form of vegetarianism that considers all forms of animal fat unsuitable in the human diet. The woman gave birth to a fourth child several weeks ago. The court in the northern city of Paderborn said that by failing to go to a doctor when the breast-fed child became sick, they had committed assault leading to death. The little boy, Leon, began refusing food and died of pneumonia and malnutrition in March. The mother said she noticed Leon was ill two weeks before he died and tried to treat him with rubs of natural oils. She said she had spoon-fed him a " milk substitute " made from almonds and coconuts. Officials in Bad Driburg, the small town where the couple live, said the family had given an undertaking to child-protection officers to feed the three surviving children eggs, fish and dairy products in future and to visit a doctor for check-ups. http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp? subchannel_id=52 & story_id=14080 & name=Vegan+parents+sentenced+over+child' s+death To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Remember, these ARE the people who won't anything they can't shove into an animal casing. Love, Anna > [Original Message] > Jo bb <Heartwork > > 11/20/2004 5:38:09 PM > Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death > > > I think it's almost impossible to get a vegan meal in Germany, so I guess > they do think it's extreme. > Jo > - > " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx > > Saturday, November 20, 2004 6:23 PM > Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death > > > > note the words *extreme* and such > the story is patterned to make it seem that vegans are not just misinformed, > but an active danger > and we are technically..a danger to the status quo..a danger to deeply > ingrained beliefs and superstitions... > so, why did the baby die? what did it die of? it doesn't say in the > story..and you are left to assume that it died because of it being fed a > vegan diet...how did he get pneumonia?? gee..veganism must be a way to catch > pneumonia....... > along the same lines..note that she breast fed..gee..breast feeding must be > dangerous as well...i guess a million yrs of human history is wrong...thank > you carnation for saving us all... > > so, i assume that anytime some child dies of SIDS, they critique the parents > habit of eating Mcdonalds right? > > > > morgaana > Nov 20, 2004 5:15 AM > > vegan parents sentenced over child's death > > These are the kind of stories that make people think we're all idiots. > I'm so sad for the child that the parents didn't educate themselves on > vegan nutrition or get the baby suitable help when it was ill. I guess > we know why she was an _unemployed_ nurse. And to continue the cycle of > ignorance, the child protective agency is making them feed their > remaining children eggs, dairy & fish. Hey, why not make them take a > class on vegan nutrition instead? > > Rather than the horror stories I hear from some people about > family/friends refusing to accept their food choices or worse sneaking > animal derivatives into their food, this is the sort of attitude I > usually get. " Well, you can't possibly eat that way and be healthy. " > Last time I was vegan my general practitioner even insisted on running > a full blood panel. Was I anemic? No. Any other problems? No. Bleh. > > ------------------------------ > > Vegan parents sentenced over child's death > > 18 November 2004 > > PADERBORN - A vegan mother and father whose 15-month-old son starved > to death because they disapproved of dairy products, eggs and other > animal foods were given a suspended jail sentence of 15 months each by > a German court. > > The unemployed nurse, 36, and her husband, a cabinetmaker, 44, > supported an extreme form of vegetarianism that considers all forms of > animal fat unsuitable in the human diet. The woman gave birth to a > fourth child several weeks ago. > > The court in the northern city of Paderborn said that by failing to go > to a doctor when the breast-fed child became sick, they had committed > assault leading to death. The little > boy, Leon, began refusing food and died of pneumonia and malnutrition > in March. > > The mother said she noticed Leon was ill two weeks before he died and > tried to treat him with rubs of natural oils. She said she had > spoon-fed him a " milk substitute " made from almonds and coconuts. > > Officials in Bad Driburg, the small town where the couple live, said > the family had given an undertaking to child-protection officers to > feed the three surviving children eggs, fish and dairy products in > future and to visit a doctor for check-ups. > > http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp? > subchannel_id=52 & story_id=14080 & name=Vegan+parents+sentenced+over+child' > s+death > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 The last time we heard a story like this it turned out to be totally non-related to the child’s diet. It was carbon monoxide poisoning. This may be the same type of situation here. The woman’s a nurse, they do know about biochemistry. Christy ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ " All beings tremble before violence. All fear death, all love life. See yourself in others. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do? " -Buddha morgaana [morgaana] Saturday, November 20, 2004 5:16 AM vegan parents sentenced over child's death These are the kind of stories that make people think we're all idiots. I'm so sad for the child that the parents didn't educate themselves on vegan nutrition or get the baby suitable help when it was ill. I guess we know why she was an _unemployed_ nurse. And to continue the cycle of ignorance, the child protective agency is making them feed their remaining children eggs, dairy & fish. Hey, why not make them take a class on vegan nutrition instead? Rather than the horror stories I hear from some people about family/friends refusing to accept their food choices or worse sneaking animal derivatives into their food, this is the sort of attitude I usually get. " Well, you can't possibly eat that way and be healthy. " Last time I was vegan my general practitioner even insisted on running a full blood panel. Was I anemic? No. Any other problems? No. Bleh. ------------------------------ Vegan parents sentenced over child's death 18 November 2004 PADERBORN - A vegan mother and father whose 15-month-old son starved to death because they disapproved of dairy products, eggs and other animal foods were given a suspended jail sentence of 15 months each by a German court. The unemployed nurse, 36, and her husband, a cabinetmaker, 44, supported an extreme form of vegetarianism that considers all forms of animal fat unsuitable in the human diet. The woman gave birth to a fourth child several weeks ago. The court in the northern city of Paderborn said that by failing to go to a doctor when the breast-fed child became sick, they had committed assault leading to death. The little boy, Leon, began refusing food and died of pneumonia and malnutrition in March. The mother said she noticed Leon was ill two weeks before he died and tried to treat him with rubs of natural oils. She said she had spoon-fed him a " milk substitute " made from almonds and coconuts. Officials in Bad Driburg, the small town where the couple live, said the family had given an undertaking to child-protection officers to feed the three surviving children eggs, fish and dairy products in future and to visit a doctor for check-ups. http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=52 & story_id=14080 & name=Vegan+parents+sentenced+over+child's+death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 *rolls eyes* dang limey kewpie doll.. doll they use to hand out as a prize at carnivals..back in the teens thru 30's smiling lil dolls.... Peter <metalscarab Nov 20, 2004 4:25 PM Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death <html><body> <tt> Hi Fraggle<BR> <BR> > give the man a kewpie doll<BR> <BR> Thanks... but what's a kewpie doll???? :-)<BR> <BR> BB<BR> Peter<BR> <BR> </tt> <br><br> <tt> To send an email to - </tt> <br><br> <br> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size= " -1 " color=#003399><b> Sponsor</b></font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF> <td align=center width=470><a href= " http://us.ard./SIG=129fhillh/M=296572.5585671.6651487.3001176/D=g\ roups/S=1705129295:HM/EXP=1101083438/A=2343726/R=0/SIG=12iqi0a0d/*http://clk.atd\ mt.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/ & time=1100997038252100 " target= " _blank " > <img src= " http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/vo/vonage/logo_25x25.gif " width= " 25 " height= " 25 " border= " 0 " ></a> <a href= " http://us.ard./SIG=129fhillh/M=296572.5585671.6651487.3001176/D=g\ roups/S=1705129295:HM/EXP=1101083438/A=2343726/R=1/SIG=12iqi0a0d/*http://clk.atd\ mt.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/ & time=1100997038252100 " target= " _blank " ><p>Get unlimited calls to</p> <p>U.S./Canada</p> </a> <img src= " http://view.atdmt.com/VON/view/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/ & time=11009970\ 38252100 " width=1 height=1 border=0></td> </tr> <tr><td><img alt= " " width=1 height=1 src= " http://us.adserver./l?M=296572.5585671.6651487.3001176/D=groups/S=\ :HM/A=2343726/rand=909286676 " ></td></tr> </table> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <br> <tt><hr width= " 500 " > <b> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 are you kidding!? some of the best vegan meals i had were in germany!!!! Jo bb <Heartwork Nov 20, 2004 4:36 PM Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death <html><body> <tt> I think it's almost impossible to get a vegan meal in Germany, so I guess<BR> they do think it's extreme.<BR> Jo<BR> -<BR> " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx<BR> <BR> Saturday, November 20, 2004 6:23 PM<BR> Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death<BR> <BR> <BR> < Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 I second that. I ate at a vegetarian restaurant in Luebeck that was nice. Plus, you can't throw a stone without hitting a falafel. Laura On Nov 20, 2004, at 9:25 PM, fraggle wrote: > are you kidding!? > some of the best vegan meals i had were in germany!!!! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 She _should_ know about biochemistry. Doctors _should_ know about nutrition but how many of you have been told by your doctor that a vegan diet can't possibly be healthy? Although the story isn't exactly full of details so who knows what went on. It doesn't even mention the health of her other children. Laura On Nov 20, 2004, at 7:53 PM, Christy wrote: > The last time we heard a story like this it turned out to be totally > non-related to the child’s diet. It was carbon monoxide poisoning. > This may be the same type of situation here. The woman’s a nurse, they > do know about biochemistry. > > > > Christy > > ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ > > " All beings tremble before violence. All fear death, all love life. > See yourself in others. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do? " > -Buddha > > > > > morgaana [morgaana] > Saturday, November 20, 2004 5:16 AM > > vegan parents sentenced over child's death > > > > These are the kind of stories that make people think we're all idiots. > I'm so sad for the child that the parents didn't educate themselves on > vegan nutrition or get the baby suitable help when it was ill. I guess > we know why she was an _unemployed_ nurse. And to continue the cycle > of ignorance, the child protective agency is making them feed their > remaining children eggs, dairy & fish. Hey, why not make them take a > class on vegan nutrition instead? > > Rather than the horror stories I hear from some people about > family/friends refusing to accept their food choices or worse sneaking > animal derivatives into their food, this is the sort of attitude I > usually get. " Well, you can't possibly eat that way and be healthy. " > Last time I was vegan my general practitioner even insisted on running > a full blood panel. Was I anemic? No. Any other problems? No. Bleh. > > ------------------------------ > > Vegan parents sentenced over child's death > > 18 November 2004 > > PADERBORN - A vegan mother and father whose 15-month-old son starved > to death because they disapproved of dairy products, eggs and other > animal foods were given a suspended jail sentence of 15 months each by > a German court. > > The unemployed nurse, 36, and her husband, a cabinetmaker, 44, > supported an extreme form of vegetarianism that considers all forms of > animal fat unsuitable in the human diet. The woman gave birth to a > fourth child several weeks ago. > > The court in the northern city of Paderborn said that by failing to > go to a doctor when the breast-fed child became sick, they had > committed assault leading to death. The little > boy, Leon, began refusing food and died of pneumonia and malnutrition > in March. > > The mother said she noticed Leon was ill two weeks before he died and > tried to treat him with rubs of natural oils. She said she had > spoon-fed him a " milk substitute " made from almonds and coconuts. > > Officials in Bad Driburg, the small town where the couple live, said > the family had given an undertaking to child-protection officers to > feed the three surviving children eggs, fish and dairy products in > future and to visit a doctor for check-ups. > > > http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp? > subchannel_id=52 & story_id=14080 & name=Vegan+parents+sentenced+over+child > 's+death > > > To send an email to - > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 It’s actually different where I live. I know of several MD’s and ND’s that are vegan. I am in the US, Pacific Northwest…more progressive here and registered nurses take nutritional courses. Let’s face it, for a child to die of malnutrition from the effects of a vegan diet would have to mean that the child was deprived of almost anything and that then becomes a deprivation diet not a vegan one! I agree. They did the same to a couple here in the states last year. Propaganda/BS! Christy ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ " All beings tremble before violence. All fear death, all love life. See yourself in others. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do? " -Buddha morgaana [morgaana] Saturday, November 20, 2004 7:15 PM Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death She _should_ know about biochemistry. Doctors _should_ know about nutrition but how many of you have been told by your doctor that a vegan diet can't possibly be healthy? Although the story isn't exactly full of details so who knows what went on. It doesn't even mention the health of her other children. Laura On Nov 20, 2004, at 7:53 PM, Christy wrote: The last time we heard a story like this it turned out to be totally non-related to the child’s diet. It was carbon monoxide poisoning. This may be the same type of situation here. The woman’s a nurse, they do know about biochemistry. Christy ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ " All beings tremble before violence. All fear death, all love life. See yourself in others. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do? " -Buddha morgaana [morgaana] Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 5:16 AM To: Subject: vegan parents sentenced over child's death These are the kind of stories that make people think we're all idiots. I'm so sad for the child that the parents didn't educate themselves on vegan nutrition or get the baby suitable help when it was ill. I guess we know why she was an _unemployed_ nurse. And to continue the cycle of ignorance, the child protective agency is making them feed their remaining children eggs, dairy & fish. Hey, why not make them take a class on vegan nutrition instead? Rather than the horror stories I hear from some people about family/friends refusing to accept their food choices or worse sneaking animal derivatives into their food, this is the sort of attitude I usually get. " Well, you can't possibly eat that way and be healthy. " Last time I was vegan my general practitioner even insisted on running a full blood panel. Was I anemic? No. Any other problems? No. Bleh. ------------------------------ Vegan parents sentenced over child's death 18 November 2004 PADERBORN - A vegan mother and father whose 15-month-old son starved to death because they disapproved of dairy products, eggs and other animal foods were given a suspended jail sentence of 15 months each by a German court. The unemployed nurse, 36, and her husband, a cabinetmaker, 44, supported an extreme form of vegetarianism that considers all forms of animal fat unsuitable in the human diet. The woman gave birth to a fourth child several weeks ago. The court in the northern city of Paderborn said that by failing to go to a doctor when the breast-fed child became sick, they had committed assault leading to death. The little boy, Leon, began refusing food and died of pneumonia and malnutrition in March. The mother said she noticed Leon was ill two weeks before he died and tried to treat him with rubs of natural oils. She said she had spoon-fed him a " milk substitute " made from almonds and coconuts. Officials in Bad Driburg, the small town where the couple live, said the family had given an undertaking to child-protection officers to feed the three surviving children eggs, fish and dairy products in future and to visit a doctor for check-ups. http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=52 & story_id=14080 & name=Vegan+parents+sentenced+over+child's+death To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Hi Fraggle > kewpie doll.. > doll they use to hand out as a prize at carnivals..back in the teens thru 30's Y'know, I'd never have guessed you were that old!!!!! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 beer keeps me young.... Peter <metalscarab Nov 21, 2004 6:07 AM Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death <html><body> <tt> Hi Fraggle<BR> <BR> > kewpie doll..<BR> > doll they use to hand out as a prize at carnivals..back in the teens thru<BR> 30's<BR> <BR> Y'know, I'd never have guessed you were that old!!!!!<BR> <BR> BB<BR> Peter<BR> <BR> <BR> </tt> <br><br> <tt> To send an email to - </tt> <br><br> <br> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size= " -1 " color=#003399><b> Sponsor</b></font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF> <td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0> <tr> <td align=center><font face=arial size=-2></font><br><a href= " http://us.ard./SIG=129919151/M=298184.5584357.6650215.3001176/D=g\ roups/S=1705129295:HM/EXP=1101133135/A=2434971/R=0/SIG=11eeoolb0/*http://www.net\ flix.com/Default?mqso=60185400 " alt= " " ><img src= " http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ne/netflix/111704_1104_g_300250a.gif " alt= " click here " width= " 300 " height= " 250 " border= " 0 " ></a></td></tr></table> </td> </tr> <tr><td><img alt= " " width=1 height=1 src= " http://us.adserver./l?M=298184.5584357.6650215.3001176/D=groups/S=\ :HM/A=2434971/rand=133275066 " ></td></tr> </table> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <br> <tt><hr width= " 500 " > <b> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 > Peter wrote: > > > Vegan parents sentenced over child's death > > What *really* annoys me about this is that you will never see the > phrase " meat-eating parents sentenced over child's death " ... it's pure > discrimination against vegans to point out their choice of diet as > though it is somehow of significance to the death. > > BB > Peter Particularly when a more sensible headline would have been to focus on their enthusiasm for alternative medicine ( " natural oils " ) and refusal to go to conventional medics. That's what really killed them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Hi Ian > Particularly when a more sensible headline would have been to focus on > their enthusiasm for alternative medicine ( " natural oils " ) and refusal > to go to conventional medics. That's what really killed them. OK... I must admit that I didn't read the article, so don't know the detail of why the child died... so my comments are not necessarily related to the specific case... I'm not sure why modern medicine should be considered " better " than traditional medicine in the vast majority of cases. In general, modern medicine appears more concerned with curing symptoms rather than causes, and does nothing to actually cure the patient - just to make the body ignore the problems! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Peter wrote: > > Hi Ian > > > Particularly when a more sensible headline would have been to focus on > > their enthusiasm for alternative medicine ( " natural oils " ) and refusal > > to go to conventional medics. That's what really killed them. > > OK... I must admit that I didn't read the article, so don't know the detail > of why the child died... so my comments are not necessarily related to the > specific case... Please go back and read it. > I'm not sure why modern medicine should be considered " better " than > traditional medicine in the vast majority of cases. This is a really big discussion, and I'm bored with having it. But the main reason is that modern medicine is evidence based; it's mean to be based on proper, rigorous studies to find out whether a treatment actually works. (Yes, I know that many of the studies are based on false extrapolations from animal studies; but at the end of the day, modern medicine is still evidence based.) I'm not even going to try to talk about 'traditional medicine', because when medicine is based on traditions, each tribe or village has its own traditions; there's no single 'traditional medicine' to talk about. > In general, modern > medicine appears more concerned with curing symptoms rather than causes, and > does nothing to actually cure the patient - just to make the body ignore the > problems! In general, alternative medicine doesn't even appear concerned with curing the symptoms; just vaguely spouting platitudes, making the patient feel warm and fuzzy (which I'm not decrying, but it's not substitute for an actual, real, therapy), and taking their money away. And please, if you want to discuss this, read the article at the start of the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Hi Ian So, you don't think that thousands of years of case study counts as a reasonable evidence? The fact is that the majority of traditional medicines have been through a form of scientific study which can't be met by modern science... simple observation over millenia. What I find shocking is that over 40% of people in hospital in this country are there ***because*** of modern medicines prescribed by their doctors (or at least they were in the mid 90s, I'm guessing the figure is about the same nowadays). So, how can modern medicine make any claims to scientific " accuracy " , or even genuine effectiveness with such a statistic??? BB Peter PS... before you ask, my source was a New Scientist article in about 1996 or 1997. - " Ian McDonald " <ian Monday, November 22, 2004 1:31 AM Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death > > > > Peter wrote: > > > > Hi Ian > > > > > Particularly when a more sensible headline would have been to focus on > > > their enthusiasm for alternative medicine ( " natural oils " ) and refusal > > > to go to conventional medics. That's what really killed them. > > > > OK... I must admit that I didn't read the article, so don't know the detail > > of why the child died... so my comments are not necessarily related to the > > specific case... > > Please go back and read it. > > > I'm not sure why modern medicine should be considered " better " than > > traditional medicine in the vast majority of cases. > > This is a really big discussion, and I'm bored with having it. But the > main reason is that modern medicine is evidence based; it's mean to be > based on proper, rigorous studies to find out whether a treatment > actually works. > > (Yes, I know that many of the studies are based on false extrapolations > from animal studies; but at the end of the day, modern medicine is still > evidence based.) > > I'm not even going to try to talk about 'traditional medicine', because > when medicine is based on traditions, each tribe or village has its own > traditions; there's no single 'traditional medicine' to talk about. > > > In general, modern > > medicine appears more concerned with curing symptoms rather than causes, and > > does nothing to actually cure the patient - just to make the body ignore the > > problems! > > In general, alternative medicine doesn't even appear concerned with > curing the symptoms; just vaguely spouting platitudes, making the > patient feel warm and fuzzy (which I'm not decrying, but it's not > substitute for an actual, real, therapy), and taking their money away. > > And please, if you want to discuss this, read the article at the start > of the thread. > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 sorry Ian..gonna have to at least partially agree with peter on this one.. while some *traditional* medicines and stuff are hocus pocus, there are also untold generations of observations to rely on... if it was all crap then it wouldn't all be handed down generation after generation and, too much of modern *medicine* looks at things tooo narrowly, and is very short sided while i agree modern med has some distinct advantages...you can't toss out other cultures results just cuz they don't make sense to a western approach personally, i think the whole " hot and cold " thing is silly..and i'd much rather see a western doctor if i had polio..but, there are definite other sources out there.... you have to look at it from all sides cheers fraggle Peter <metalscarab Nov 22, 2004 10:06 AM Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's death <html><body> <tt> Hi Ian<BR> <BR> So, you don't think that thousands of years of case study counts as a<BR> reasonable evidence?<BR> <BR> The fact is that the majority of traditional medicines have been through a<BR> form of scientific study which can't be met by modern science... simple<BR> observation over millenia.<BR> <BR> What I find shocking is that over 40% of people in hospital in this country<BR> are there ***because*** of modern medicines prescribed by their doctors (or<BR> at least they were in the mid 90s, I'm guessing the figure is about the same<BR> nowadays). So, how can modern medicine make any claims to scientific<BR> " accuracy " , or even genuine effectiveness with such a statistic???<BR> <BR> BB<BR> Peter<BR> <BR> PS... before you ask, my source was a New Scientist article in about 1996 or<BR> 1997.<BR> < Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 I think you will find that a lot of traditional medicines do work, and the research has been done - it's called experience - of using them and them working. Jo , Ian McDonald <ian@m...> wrote: > This is a really big discussion, and I'm bored with having it. But the > main reason is that modern medicine is evidence based; it's mean to be > based on proper, rigorous studies to find out whether a treatment > actually works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Peter wrote: > > Hi Ian > > So, you don't think that thousands of years of case study counts as a > reasonable evidence? Peter, rather than have a conversation with me, you're trying to put words into my mouth so that you can have a conversation with them instead of me. You don't even need me to have that conversation. In fact, you don't even need the list. You could just go off somewhere and email yourself. To re-iterate my main criticism (ie blaming it for the death of the poor kid) was of alternative medicine, which is generally about as traditional as Space Hoppers. No-one at all, as far as I'm aware, is talking about thousands of years of case study. Unless you're trying to claim that tradition is based on thousands of years of case study, which would just be silly. > What I find shocking is that over 40% of people in hospital in this country > are there ***because*** of modern medicines prescribed by their doctors That kind of claim I'd actually have to look at the detail of before I took it seriously. I know that lots of people have side-effects from drugs. (Or side-effects from drugs to counter-act the side-effects of drugs to counteract the side-effects of other drugs). I'll admit to not knowing whether some people would be better off without the drugs in the first place, but imagine that their GPs would claim that the three sets of side-effects are still better than the ailment. > PS... before you ask, my source was a New Scientist article in about 1996 or > 1997. Guess I'm not going to be looking at the detail then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 fraggle wrote: > > sorry Ian..gonna have to at least partially agree with peter on this one.. > while some *traditional* medicines and stuff are hocus pocus, there are also untold generations of > observations to rely on... They would be if we had records of untold generations of observations to rely on. We don't. We just have the conclusions of the local cunning man/woman, which they probably got from their teacher. Add in misunderstanding, superstition, obstinacy, and people's tendency to see patterns where none exist, and they're going to get a lot of stuff wrong. > if it was all crap then it wouldn't all be handed down generation after generation I'm not saying it's *all* crap, just much of it. Oh, I'm sure some traditional medicine is right, and I'm all for going through traditional remedies to find out which of them work. But remember that tobacco used to be a traditional remedy for lung problems ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Sorry to stick in my two penneth, but isnt a lot of mordern pharmacuticals derived from natural sources ( e.g. asprin from a particular tree?)...... Sorry , just woke up... The Valley Vegan......fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: sorry Ian..gonna have to at least partially agree with peter on this one..while some *traditional* medicines and stuff are hocus pocus, there are also untold generations of observations to rely on...if it was all crap then it wouldn't all be handed down generation after generationand, too much of modern *medicine* looks at things tooo narrowly, and is very short sidedwhile i agree modern med has some distinct advantages...you can't toss out other cultures results just cuz they don't make sense to a western approachpersonally, i think the whole "hot and cold" thing is silly..and i'd much rather see a western doctor if i had polio..but, there are definite other sources out there....you have to look at it from all sidescheersfragglePeter Nov 22, 2004 10:06 AMTo: Subject: Re: vegan parents sentenced over child's deathHi IanSo, you don't think that thousands of years of case study counts as areasonable evidence?The fact is that the majority of traditional medicines have been through aform of scientific study which can't be met by modern science... simpleobservation over millenia.What I find shocking is that over 40% of people in hospital in this countryare there ***because*** of modern medicines prescribed by their doctors (orat least they were in the mid 90s, I'm guessing the figure is about the samenowadays). So, how can modern medicine make any claims to scientific"accuracy", or even genuine effectiveness with such a statistic???BBPeterPS... before you ask, my source was a New Scientist article in about 1996 or1997.< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Ian I feel sure we have had this discussion before in great detail, and at great length. I am sure it is uninteresting to the majority of people on the list. We could discuss this until the cows come home, but I doubt you will change your opinion, and I know I won't change mine. Jo , Ian McDonald <ian@m...> wrote: > > > Peter wrote: > > > > Hi Ian > > > > So, you don't think that thousands of years of case study counts as a > > reasonable evidence? > > Peter, rather than have a conversation with me, you're trying to put > words into my mouth so that you can have a conversation with them > instead of me. You don't even need me to have that conversation. In > fact, you don't even need the list. You could just go off somewhere and > email yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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