B12

[Guest guest]

Craig

 

The facts I quote are the latest research. I quote from 'Plant Based Nutrition and Health' by Stephen Walsh:-

 

"Current government recommendations for vitamin B12 intake are based on reliably preventing classical deficiency and are adequate for this purpose. However, they do not consider the amounts required to minimise homocysteine. At least three micrograms per day are required to achieve this by maintaining blood B12 levels at 300 picomoles per litre (400 picograms per millilitre) or above."

 

and

 

"The need for B12 fortification or supplementation to keep homocysteine levels low begs the question of how plant-eating primates such as gorillas and chimps obtain adequate B12. The main answer appears to be insect consumption and bacterial contamination of soil and food. All the great apes consume significant amounts of insects as contaminants in or on their basic diet of fruits, leaves, shoots and roots. In many cases they also eat insects deliberately, as in the famous chimpanzee termite 'fishing'. Some primates eat faeces and large amounts of soil, which may also provide a useful source of B12."

 

I think that this makes it clear that to obtain enough B12 we need to eat 'large amounts of soil' or 'significant amounts of insects' or take a supplement to keep ourselves from having a high homocysteine level.

 

Incidentally, the book is recommended by The Vegan Society.

 

Jo

 

---- Original Message -----

 

Craig Dearth

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 12:21 AM

B12

 

the only research I saw

was that in which all factors were not considered

as I have posted before B12 comes from bacteria in the soil

and if you have an active bio system in your soil and you allow a minute amount of dirt into your food

simple wash rather than soaking

there is more than enough b12

the facts you quote sound like meat propaganda

Craig

The latest research disagrees with you. If you do not have sufficient vitamin B12 your homocysteine levels rise and lay yourself open to heart disease. This is why vegetarians have a longer life expectancy than vegans - because they get more vitamin B12 in their diet. Obviously if vegans supplement with B12 or eat fortified foods in sufficient quantities they will live longer than vegetarians. The notion that you do not need to worry too much about your intake of B12 and that you will get enough in a normal vegan diet is out of date.

 

Jo

 

-

Craig Dearth

Monday, July 26, 2004 10:06 PM

RE: Re: B12

 

hello everyone,

I just downloaded and listened to "vegan in a nutshell" from the Peta site

it makes some great comments.

first off most health issues western society faces are gluttony related not vitamin deficiency related

 

in a good balanced vegan diet there is no need to worry about vitamins

as for b12 we need like 5 micro grams per month this vitamin which the body recycles over and over

if you eat your fresh salads grown in soil (not hydroponic)

don't worry you have enough

a good multiple with b complex

extra C or E in winter to fight colds

maybe zinc & magnesium

that should cover any short comings in diet

all surplus of most vitamins are just discharged

hope that helps a bit

 

and do down load the "vegan in a nutshell" make copies and spread the word

 

all the best

Craig

 

 

 

 

 

 

apprendsvegan [tarasch7]Friday, July 23, 2004 4:24 AM Subject: Re: B12Iron?xoTara , Ian McDonald <ian@m...> wrote:> Which ones can do more harm than good if taken in multiples of the RDA?> > Iodine is one ... what are the others?To send an email to - To send an email to - To send an email to - To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

No, it's vegans with slurred voices from a B12 deficiency that sound

like meat propoganda.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

A question - when foods are fortified with B12, how is this B12

manufactured?

 

Catherine

 

>

> Ian McDonald [ian]

> 27 July 2004 22:13

>

> Re: B12

>

>

> No, it's vegans with slurred voices from a B12 deficiency that sound

> like meat propoganda.

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Jo

I concede that B12 is important and thank you for clarifying

and as a long time vegetarian and vegan the question annoys me when asked... b12...?

from numerous sources that I have read too the 3 mcg per day is to insure approx 1.5 mcg is absorbed

and large quantities are useless because most is expelled (varies on the dose)

I personally take the supplements that I mentioned in the first email

I guess what I am trying to say if someone asked my should I eat broccoli or not

of course I would eat broccoli

the B12 issue is only an issue when we neglect our basic health

eating Chips and drinking soda water for every meal is a sure way to be on the endangered list

and pointing out my typo mistake was a good thing it should have read 50 mcg

which is a very small amount compared to everything we eat.

and easily achievable with a normal balanced diet including many of the things we both agree on.

and saying all that supplements and fortified foods are the easy way to achieve BUT they give us that false sense of I have done enough. back to the balanced diet..

job all the best

Craig

Jo [Heartwork]Wednesday, July 28, 2004 1:12 AM Subject: Re: B12

Craig

 

The facts I quote are the latest research. I quote from 'Plant Based Nutrition and Health' by Stephen Walsh:-

 

"Current government recommendations for vitamin B12 intake are based on reliably preventing classical deficiency and are adequate for this purpose. However, they do not consider the amounts required to minimise homocysteine. At least three micrograms per day are required to achieve this by maintaining blood B12 levels at 300 picomoles per litre (400 picograms per millilitre) or above."

 

and

 

"The need for B12 fortification or supplementation to keep homocysteine levels low begs the question of how plant-eating primates such as gorillas and chimps obtain adequate B12. The main answer appears to be insect consumption and bacterial contamination of soil and food. All the great apes consume significant amounts of insects as contaminants in or on their basic diet of fruits, leaves, shoots and roots. In many cases they also eat insects deliberately, as in the famous chimpanzee termite 'fishing'. Some primates eat faeces and large amounts of soil, which may also provide a useful source of B12."

 

I think that this makes it clear that to obtain enough B12 we need to eat 'large amounts of soil' or 'significant amounts of insects' or take a supplement to keep ourselves from having a high homocysteine level.

 

Incidentally, the book is recommended by The Vegan Society.

 

Jo

 

---- Original Message -----

 

Craig Dearth

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 12:21 AM

B12

 

the only research I saw

was that in which all factors were not considered

as I have posted before B12 comes from bacteria in the soil

and if you have an active bio system in your soil and you allow a minute amount of dirt into your food

simple wash rather than soaking

there is more than enough b12

the facts you quote sound like meat propaganda

Craig

The latest research disagrees with you. If you do not have sufficient vitamin B12 your homocysteine levels rise and lay yourself open to heart disease. This is why vegetarians have a longer life expectancy than vegans - because they get more vitamin B12 in their diet. Obviously if vegans supplement with B12 or eat fortified foods in sufficient quantities they will live longer than vegetarians. The notion that you do not need to worry too much about your intake of B12 and that you will get enough in a normal vegan diet is out of date.

 

Jo

 

-

Craig Dearth

Monday, July 26, 2004 10:06 PM

RE: Re: B12

 

hello everyone,

I just downloaded and listened to "vegan in a nutshell" from the Peta site

it makes some great comments.

first off most health issues western society faces are gluttony related not vitamin deficiency related

 

in a good balanced vegan diet there is no need to worry about vitamins

as for b12 we need like 5 micro grams per month this vitamin which the body recycles over and over

if you eat your fresh salads grown in soil (not hydroponic)

don't worry you have enough

a good multiple with b complex

extra C or E in winter to fight colds

maybe zinc & magnesium

that should cover any short comings in diet

all surplus of most vitamins are just discharged

hope that helps a bit

 

and do down load the "vegan in a nutshell" make copies and spread the word

 

all the best

Craig

 

 

 

 

 

 

apprendsvegan [tarasch7]Friday, July 23, 2004 4:24 AM Subject: Re: B12Iron?xoTara , Ian McDonald <ian@m...> wrote:> Which ones can do more harm than good if taken in multiples of the RDA?> > Iodine is one ... what are the others?To send an email to - To send an email to - To send an email to - To send an email to - To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi CAtherine

 

B12 supplements are produced by fermenting particular bacteria, similar to

beer making.

 

Jo

> A question - when foods are fortified with B12, how is this B12

> manufactured?

[Guest guest]

Craig

 

The research I have read says that vitamin B12 is not achievable in a normal diet, whether that diet is vegan, vegetarian or meat eating. As Fraggle pointed out, the bacteria in the soil that are connected with B12 production have been severely reduced by the use of artificial fertilisers and pesticides, which makes it impossible to get enough B12 in food. We can get enough B12 to prevent us getting pernicious anaemia, but not to prevent heart disease. If we supplement with B12 we stand a lot better chance of avoiding heart disease.

 

Jo

 

-

Craig Dearth

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 8:47 AM

RE: B12

 

Jo

I concede that B12 is important and thank you for clarifying

and as a long time vegetarian and vegan the question annoys me when asked... b12...?

from numerous sources that I have read too the 3 mcg per day is to insure approx 1.5 mcg is absorbed

and large quantities are useless because most is expelled (varies on the dose)

I personally take the supplements that I mentioned in the first email

I guess what I am trying to say if someone asked my should I eat broccoli or not

of course I would eat broccoli

the B12 issue is only an issue when we neglect our basic health

eating Chips and drinking soda water for every meal is a sure way to be on the endangered list

and pointing out my typo mistake was a good thing it should have read 50 mcg

which is a very small amount compared to everything we eat.

and easily achievable with a normal balanced diet including many of the things we both agree on.

and saying all that supplements and fortified foods are the easy way to achieve BUT they give us that false sense of I have done enough. back to the balanced diet..

job all the best

Craig

Jo [Heartwork]Wednesday, July 28, 2004 1:12 AM Subject: Re: B12

Craig

 

The facts I quote are the latest research. I quote from 'Plant Based Nutrition and Health' by Stephen Walsh:-

 

"Current government recommendations for vitamin B12 intake are based on reliably preventing classical deficiency and are adequate for this purpose. However, they do not consider the amounts required to minimise homocysteine. At least three micrograms per day are required to achieve this by maintaining blood B12 levels at 300 picomoles per litre (400 picograms per millilitre) or above."

 

and

 

"The need for B12 fortification or supplementation to keep homocysteine levels low begs the question of how plant-eating primates such as gorillas and chimps obtain adequate B12. The main answer appears to be insect consumption and bacterial contamination of soil and food. All the great apes consume significant amounts of insects as contaminants in or on their basic diet of fruits, leaves, shoots and roots. In many cases they also eat insects deliberately, as in the famous chimpanzee termite 'fishing'. Some primates eat faeces and large amounts of soil, which may also provide a useful source of B12."

 

I think that this makes it clear that to obtain enough B12 we need to eat 'large amounts of soil' or 'significant amounts of insects' or take a supplement to keep ourselves from having a high homocysteine level.

 

Incidentally, the book is recommended by The Vegan Society.

 

Jo

 

---- Original Message -----

 

Craig Dearth

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 12:21 AM

B12

 

the only research I saw

was that in which all factors were not considered

as I have posted before B12 comes from bacteria in the soil

and if you have an active bio system in your soil and you allow a minute amount of dirt into your food

simple wash rather than soaking

there is more than enough b12

the facts you quote sound like meat propaganda

Craig

The latest research disagrees with you. If you do not have sufficient vitamin B12 your homocysteine levels rise and lay yourself open to heart disease. This is why vegetarians have a longer life expectancy than vegans - because they get more vitamin B12 in their diet. Obviously if vegans supplement with B12 or eat fortified foods in sufficient quantities they will live longer than vegetarians. The notion that you do not need to worry too much about your intake of B12 and that you will get enough in a normal vegan diet is out of date.

 

Jo

 

-

Craig Dearth

Monday, July 26, 2004 10:06 PM

RE: Re: B12

 

hello everyone,

I just downloaded and listened to "vegan in a nutshell" from the Peta site

it makes some great comments.

first off most health issues western society faces are gluttony related not vitamin deficiency related

 

in a good balanced vegan diet there is no need to worry about vitamins

as for b12 we need like 5 micro grams per month this vitamin which the body recycles over and over

if you eat your fresh salads grown in soil (not hydroponic)

don't worry you have enough

a good multiple with b complex

extra C or E in winter to fight colds

maybe zinc & magnesium

that should cover any short comings in diet

all surplus of most vitamins are just discharged

hope that helps a bit

 

and do down load the "vegan in a nutshell" make copies and spread the word

 

all the best

Craig

 

 

 

 

 

 

apprendsvegan [tarasch7]Friday, July 23, 2004 4:24 AM Subject: Re: B12Iron?xoTara , Ian McDonald <ian@m...> wrote:> Which ones can do more harm than good if taken in multiples of the RDA?> > Iodine is one ... what are the others?To send an email to - To send an email to - To send an email to - To send an email to - To send an email to - To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Craig:

> the B12 issue is only an issue when we neglect our basic health

> eating Chips and drinking soda water for every meal is a sure way to be on the

endangered list

> and pointing out my typo mistake was a good thing it should have read 50 mcg

> which is a very small amount compared to everything we eat.

> and easily achievable with a normal balanced diet including many of the things

we both agree on.

> and saying all that supplements and fortified foods are the easy way to

achieve BUT they give us > that false sense of I have done

> enough. back to the balanced diet.

 

Sorry Craig, but I'm not sure from this whether you've got the important

point that however healthy your diet is otherwise, you absolutely need

supplements or plenty of fortified foods to be sure of getting your B12.

 

I agree that supplements are not a cureall. I've got a friend who eats

nothing but peanuts and vitamin supplements, and I find that very

ill-advised. And most micronutrients we can get through our diet

(although some of them - like Iodine - need us to micromanage our diet

to get them).

[Guest guest]

I am just imagining large numbers of vegans congregating at " soil

bars. "

Made my day! Hehehe!

sara

 

, " Jo " <Heartwork@o...> wrote:

> Craig

>

> The facts I quote are the latest research. I quote from 'Plant

Based Nutrition and Health' by Stephen Walsh:-

>

> " The need for B12 fortification or supplementation to keep

homocysteine levels low begs the question of how plant-eating

primates such as gorillas and chimps obtain adequate B12. The main

answer appears to be insect consumption and bacterial contamination

of soil and food. All the great apes consume significant amounts of

insects as contaminants in or on their basic diet of fruits, leaves,

shoots and roots. In many cases they also eat insects deliberately,

as in the famous chimpanzee termite 'fishing'. Some primates eat

faeces and large amounts of soil, which may also provide a useful

source of B12. "

>

> I think that this makes it clear that to obtain enough B12 we need

to eat 'large amounts of soil' or 'significant amounts of insects' or

take a supplement to keep ourselves from having a high homocysteine

level.

>

> Incidentally, the book is recommended by The Vegan Society.

>

> Jo

[Guest guest]

B12 is obtained from bacterial cultures. Certain species of bacteria

produce B12.

 

, " Catherine Turner "

<catherineturner2000> wrote:

> Hi,

>

> A question - when foods are fortified with B12, how is this B12

> manufactured?

>

> Catherine

[Guest guest]

-I have enjoyed your postings. I have been vegan for 2 years, and

try to eat raw much of the time. Some acquaintences have asked me if

I am vegan for my health; I like to reply that I consider myself a

holistic vegan, vegan for many reasons. My health is one of them,

but I know veganism is healthier for the animals we share this planet

with, and for the planet itself. That said, even though I eat vegan

100% of the time, and would eventually like to eat all my meals

raw/vegan, I think I will probably continue to take vegan vitamin

supplements. Please read the following, which is from Gabriel Cousens

Tree of Life Website (it is quite long)--

 

Some people eat according to their philosophy and belief of what is

natural, and this may be an impediment. For example, the black

Hebrews, a group of African-Americans who have migrated to Israel,

have horrendously high levels of infant B-12 deficiency, as well as

adult B-12 deficiency. They did not believe in taking supplements.

Data in a 1982 study showed that of the infants who were breastfed

for three months, and then were given diluted homemade soymilk for

three months to one year, 25 of them (a significant percentage) had

protein deficiency, iron and B-12 anemia, as well as zinc deficiency.

In the 1982 study, three of the infants were dead on arrival, five

more died within a few hours of hospital admission, despite

treatment. Serum levels were low in 9 of 15 cases and undetectable in

three of them. I don't feel this is a very good example of what we

want to show to the world in the way we want to treat our children.

We can make those choices. We have a theory of natural, and we also

have a theory of what it means to be healthy.

 

 

This is the first time in history that we can be completely

successful live food vegans. What I mean by being successful is

completely healthy, including no B-12 deficiency and no elevated

homocysteine levels. It is my medical opinion, as a vegan since 1973

and live fooder since 1983, and as a person committed to supporting

all those who choose to become healthy live food vegans, that it

would be wise to incorporate some B-12 supplementation in your diet.

I believe it is more natural to be healthy than it is to be anything

less than that.

 

Gabriel Cousens, M.D., M.D.(H), Dip. Ayurveda

 

B12 UPDATE March 2004

 

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

 

 

I was pleased by the general positive response to the B12 article. It

was nice that so many people understood the integrity of my intent,

which is to create the understanding and support for everyone to be

successful on a live food diet. The ethics of live food lifestyle are

wonderful, but we need to remember that we are still in the first few

generations of a worldwide live food movement. We need to give honest

feedback so we can attain the highest level of health and make this a

truly successful worldwide movement.

 

 

Contrary to what a few people wanted to interpret from my article,

there was more than one study that showed live food people were B12

deficient. There were at least three studies on adults and two on

children. All five of these published live food studies showed the

participants had serious deficiencies. These are no studies that show

live food vegans do not get B12 deficient overtime. There are at

least fifteen vegan studies on adults that have shown identical

results. Cooked food and live food vegans show the same results…

approximately 80% of those who do not use B12 supplements or B12

fortified foods sooner or later develop symptoms of B12 deficiency.

These may include physical symptoms such as the inability to walk,

tremors, weakness, fatigue, diarrhea, fever, upper respiratory

infections, impotence, infertility, anemia as well as neurological

symptoms such as depression, anxiety, panic attacks, hyperactive

reflexes, numbness and tingling in the hands and feet, impaired

memory, and paranoid delusions. These appear in children as well, but

in children if they are not caught in time, they often result in

death. Sickness and death due to B12 deficiency do not support the

expansion of the vegan live food movement. These symptoms are not

just " a misunderstood healing crises or poorly functioning colon or a

poor live food diet. "

 

 

Although bacteria in the colon do produce B12, it is not reabsorbed

into the system. Published research has shown that if people eat an

extract of their feces they will not get a B12 deficiency. Although

this may be considered natural, it is not something that I recommend.

There are far easier and tasteful ways to build the B12 such as

taking a supplement or eating B12 fortified foods. Whether one's

colon is clean or not, B12 does not get absorbed from the colon. A

reasonable dose is 10-100 micrograms per day. Research shows that a

daily intake best approximates the natural intake pattern. Vegan

tablets are available from a variety of companies; Twin Labs has

gelatin in its tablet and therefore is not vegan. There are three

forms of B12: cyanocobalamin, methylcobalamin, and hydroxycobalamin.

Although all three forms work, but cyanocobalamin probably should not

be used in people with kidney problems or who smoke. In some studies

with people with severe B12 deficiencies oral doses of 1000

micrograms per day for two months worked as well as 1000 microgram

injections repeatedly given.

 

 

A published report cites a man in his eighties who had been in

excellent health as a vegan for 38 years, when suddenly he began to

suffer from mental disturbances, developed confusion and sadness,

lost bowel control, and lost motor control skill to the point where

he could marginally stand up. After one shot of B12 his physical and

mental health began to rapidly return and by one week many of his

symptoms had disappeared. A personal communication with Nazariah Owen

who developed weakness, fatigue and impaired motor and nervous system

symptoms including the loss of the ability to walk following a seven

year history of lacto-vegetarian diet followed by a five year history

of a pure raw vegan diet tells of a too common story. His symptoms

disappeared after starting B12 supplementation and eating B12

fortified foods. He found many people who had similar B12 deficiency

symptoms, but who were afraid to share publicly. An additional health

problem associated with a low B12 is elevated homocysteine which is

associated with an increased incidence of heart attacks, neurological

problems, neural tube defects in children especially if the folic

acid is low, increased incidence of hearing loss with age. In one

study women with higher homocysteine levels had 170% chance of two or

more pregnancy losses in the first trimester.

 

 

If the live food movement is to mature, it requires that we do not

suppress honest feedback so we can solve the problems that do arise

in this young mass movement. Yes…there are 20% who may not get an

immediate or even a deficiency after 20 years. There are one million

four hundred thousand genetic variations in our DNA. Some people are

going to get B12 deficient sooner than others or not at all because

of their particular enzyme systems and metabolic patterns. For some

it may be like the man in his eighties who took thirty-eight years

before becoming deficient.

 

 

For those who do not want to risk the eighty percent chance of

becoming deficient, oral supplementation is the simplest way to avoid

a B12 deficiency and elevated homocysteine levels. The personal

physical, moral and spiritual reasons for succeeding at live food

vegan diet, the shift in world consciousness and healing of the

planetary ecology brings is a far greater gift than the ego

gratification of holding on to a concept of naturalness.

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Thanks for this, it's a great read. I take a high

quality b12 supplement daily.

 

There are those who swear that we get all we need from

a natural diet, ignore evidence like the case studies

below, and are against supplementation. I think this

is fine if it works for them, but feel that it's

dangerous for them try to convince others not to

supplement.

 

I think some feel that the b12 issue attacks the raw

food theory, that it's not the best diet, or our

natural diet. This is not true at all. The main

reason for b12 deficiency is the depletion of cobalt

levels in our soil.

 

Rufus

[Guest guest]

Yeah, Rufus I on the same page as you are. I take a B12 sublingually and

don't know if I truly " need " it or not, but it cheap insurance if down the

road it turns out I do. From the case studies and suggestions from

doctors/practitioners it seems that I do, so why not take it? If we lived in

Shangri-La (paradise) then maybe the soil and air would be perfect along

with the grapes hand fed to me by wood nymphs as I lay out in the sun

reading daily on the chase lounge.

 

When you say high quality B-12, what does that mean?

 

Jesse

-

" Rufus Shaw " <rufus10_99

<rawfood >

Saturday, September 04, 2004 10:31 AM

Re: [Raw Food] Re: B12

 

 

> Thanks for this, it's a great read. I take a high

> quality b12 supplement daily.

[Guest guest]

Jesse,

 

What I mean by high quality is only that its

mythylcobalamin. Of the three types of b12, I have

read that this is the best for consumption.

 

What do you see your self reading in paradise ?

 

Rufus

 

 

--- Jesse Parris <studio53 wrote:

 

> Yeah, Rufus I on the same page as you are. I take a

> B12 sublingually and

> don't know if I truly " need " it or not, but it cheap

> insurance if down the

> road it turns out I do. From the case studies and

> suggestions from

> doctors/practitioners it seems that I do, so why not

> take it? If we lived in

> Shangri-La (paradise) then maybe the soil and air

> would be perfect along

> with the grapes hand fed to me by wood nymphs as I

> lay out in the sun

> reading daily on the chase lounge.

>

> When you say high quality B-12, what does that mean?

>

> Jesse

[Guest guest]

I would have them stacked up by the lounge chair:

Molecules of Emotion, Candice Pert, MD

That universe string theory book by Greene, what is it, the Elegant

Universe? I've been struggling with this one for a couple of years

Something written by Garrison Keillor

I could sit here for hours listing books... my taste is eclectic and

recently I got an MP3 player and I'm getting into audio books,

 

Jesse

 

 

-

" Rufus Shaw " <rufus10_99

<rawfood >

Saturday, September 04, 2004 3:51 PM

Re: [Raw Food] Re: B12

 

 

>

> Jesse,

>

> What I mean by high quality is only that its

> mythylcobalamin. Of the three types of b12, I have

> read that this is the best for consumption.

>

> What do you see your self reading in paradise ?

>

> Rufus

>

>

> --- Jesse Parris <studio53 wrote:

>

> > Yeah, Rufus I on the same page as you are. I take a

> > B12 sublingually and

> > don't know if I truly " need " it or not, but it cheap

> > insurance if down the

> > road it turns out I do. From the case studies and

> > suggestions from

> > doctors/practitioners it seems that I do, so why not

> > take it? If we lived in

> > Shangri-La (paradise) then maybe the soil and air

> > would be perfect along

> > with the grapes hand fed to me by wood nymphs as I

> > lay out in the sun

> > reading daily on the chase lounge.

> >

> > When you say high quality B-12, what does that mean?

> >

> > Jesse

 

[Guest guest]

rawfood , " dubadee1952 " <dubadee1952>

wrote:

> -I have enjoyed your postings. I have been vegan for 2 years, and

> try to eat raw much of the time. Some acquaintences have asked me

if

> I am vegan for my health; I like to reply that I consider myself a

> holistic vegan, vegan for many reasons. My health is one of them,

> but I know veganism is healthier for the animals we share this

planet

> with, and for the planet itself.

 

Glad to see your post--I thought no one was going to respond at all

to my post on B12. Veganism is the optimal choice all around--for

health, for morality, for the planet.

 

> That said, even though I eat vegan

> 100% of the time, and would eventually like to eat all my meals

> raw/vegan, I think I will probably continue to take vegan vitamin

> supplements. Please read the following, which is from Gabriel

Cousens

> Tree of Life Website

 

Unfortunately, most of the raw gurus have given in to the hysteria

over " B12 deficiency " . There is nothing enlightening about any of it.

 

> Data in a 1982 study showed that of the infants who were breastfed

> for three months, and then were given diluted homemade soymilk for

> three months to one year, 25 of them (a significant percentage)

had

> protein deficiency, iron and B-12 anemia, as well as zinc

deficiency.

> In the 1982 study, three of the infants were dead on arrival, five

> more died within a few hours of hospital admission, despite

> treatment. Serum levels were low in 9 of 15 cases and undetectable

in

> three of them. I don't feel this is a very good example of what we

> want to show to the world in the way we want to treat our

children.

> We can make those choices. We have a theory of natural, and we

also

> have a theory of what it means to be healthy.

 

This is a perfect example of the bait-and-switch aspect to the

hysteria over " B12 deficiency " . Nowhere in this tract is there any

reference to these infants being fed a raw vegan diet. They were

given diluted soymilk, and probably starved to death on it. They did

not die of " B12 deficiency " , they died of starvation. Soymilk is not

raw, and is processed and largely devoid of nutrition, yet it is

what most people feed infants these days, and most of those people

are not even vegetarian. What does the above example have to do with

raw veganism? Absolutely NOTHING! Yet this is used to make a case

for purported " B12 deficiency " among raw vegans. That's the power of

hysteria.

 

> Contrary to what a few people wanted to interpret from my article,

> there was more than one study that showed live food people were

B12

> deficient. There were at least three studies on adults and two on

> children. All five of these published live food studies showed the

> participants had serious deficiencies. These are no studies that

show

> live food vegans do not get B12 deficient overtime. There are at

> least fifteen vegan studies on adults that have shown identical

> results. Cooked food and live food vegans show the same results…

> approximately 80% of those who do not use B12 supplements or B12

> fortified foods sooner or later develop symptoms of B12

deficiency.

 

The above is simply a measurement of levels of B12 that are

considered " normal " . Then, immediately below, a smorgasbord of

symptoms are presented, with typically the mistaken assignation of

symptoms to B12 levels.

 

> These may include physical symptoms such as the inability to walk,

> tremors, weakness, fatigue, diarrhea, fever, upper respiratory

> infections, impotence, infertility, anemia as well as neurological

> symptoms such as depression, anxiety, panic attacks, hyperactive

> reflexes, numbness and tingling in the hands and feet, impaired

> memory, and paranoid delusions. These appear in children as well,

but

> in children if they are not caught in time, they often result in

> death. Sickness and death due to B12 deficiency do not support the

> expansion of the vegan live food movement. These symptoms are not

> just " a misunderstood healing crises or poorly functioning colon

or a

> poor live food diet. "

 

The implication here is that the purported " B12 deficiency " , if

found in children, " often result in death " . This is another tactic

of hysteria. In fact, I've not read of ONE single case of ANYONE

dying on a vegan diet from ANY " deficiencies " , let alone tons of

children. Dr. John McDougall has stated that in his extensive

practice with vegans, he has MAYBE seen ONE possible example of a

vegan with a bit of a " B12 deficiency " .

 

The catalogue of symptoms listed above clearly indicate only one

thing--that the body is trying to force these people to FAST, to lie

down and completely rest. In fact, the more dramatic the symptoms,

the more it shows the vitality of the body, the ever-increasing

INSISTENCE on the part of the body to force the person to lie down

and rest. NOT to take pills or get injections of toxins!

 

> Although bacteria in the colon do produce B12, it is not

reabsorbed

> into the system.

 

This is an old wives' tale that has been disproved. In any case, B12

is produced in the mouth, and in the upper intestine as well, so we

are not dependent on the bacteria in our colon supplying B12.

 

> Published research has shown that if people eat an

> extract of their feces they will not get a B12 deficiency.

Although

> this may be considered natural, it is not something that I

recommend.

 

It is not " natural " for humans to eat their feces. I don't know of

anyone in the raw vegan movement suggesting that people should eat

feces, lol. Where does he come up with this stuff?

 

> A published report cites a man in his eighties who had been in

> excellent health as a vegan for 38 years, when suddenly he began

to

> suffer from mental disturbances, developed confusion and sadness,

> lost bowel control, and lost motor control skill to the point

where

> he could marginally stand up. After one shot of B12 his physical

and

> mental health began to rapidly return and by one week many of his

> symptoms had disappeared.

 

A classic example of palliation.

 

> A personal communication with Nazariah Owen

> who developed weakness, fatigue and impaired motor and nervous

system

> symptoms including the loss of the ability to walk following a

seven

> year history of lacto-vegetarian diet followed by a five year

history

> of a pure raw vegan diet tells of a too common story. His symptoms

> disappeared after starting B12 supplementation and eating B12

> fortified foods. He found many people who had similar B12

deficiency

> symptoms, but who were afraid to share publicly.

 

This subject deserves a whole post of its own. This Nazariah person

has done more to baselessly whip up hysteria among raw vegans than

has anyone else. The pages and pages of " interview " with Nazariah by

Patenaude on his site, consist of nothing but baseless fear-

mongering. There is not ONE single person named by this Nazariah, to

support all his brazen allegations of deaths purportedly from the

raw vegan diet. It is simply a manifestation of the hysteria, that

people accept his nonsense excuse that these people were " afraid to

share publicly " , or that Nazariah is supposedly protecting their

identities. Nazariah seems to be one of the crop of animal product

pushers that prey upon raw vegans these days.

 

> An additional health

> problem associated with a low B12 is elevated homocysteine which

is

> associated with an increased incidence of heart attacks,

neurological

> problems, neural tube defects in children especially if the folic

> acid is low, increased incidence of hearing loss with age. In one

> study women with higher homocysteine levels had 170% chance of two

or

> more pregnancy losses in the first trimester.

 

This is the problem--the medical profession " associates " levels of

some single nutrient with symptoms. Why? Because they can make

symptoms " magically " disappear by having someone ingest a certain

substance. That is PALLIATION. They would probably get the same

effect from giving aspirin, or any of so many other toxins. There is

no actual scientific correlation between levels of B12 or any other

nutrient, and symptoms.

 

THE BODY gives us symptoms! And the body gives us symptoms for a

reason. That reason is NOT because the body wants pills or

injections! The reason is that the body is trying to FORCE us to LIE

DOWN AND REST, so that the body can FIX itself--cleanse, heal, and

repair, quantumly.

 

There is NO lack of B12 in our bodies! There is, however, a lack of

ABSORPTION of B12 and of all other nutrients, in our bodies, from a

lifetime of toxicity and enervation. ONLY the body can repair this!

And in many, perhaps most, individuals, the body will sooner or

later demand a FAST in order to be able to do its work. How does the

body demand a fast? By means of SYMPTOMS, often very DRAMATIC

SYMPTOMS! If someone does not heed the body's demand that we lie

down and completely rest, then the body FORCES us to do so. It does

so by ever more dramatic symptoms, such as the ones that are

mistakenly assigned to " B12 deficiency " . What we need to do at those

times is to FAST, and NOT to PALLIATE with pills or injections or

anything else! We can never become truly healthy if we keep

palliating instead of letting our bodies cleanse, heal, repair!

 

> Yes…there are 20% who may not get an

> immediate or even a deficiency after 20 years...For some

> it may be like the man in his eighties who took thirty-eight years

> before becoming deficient.

 

What " man in his eighties " ??? This is ONE unidentified purported

example. This is apparently the SAME person alluded to above--there

surely is a complete LACK of examples of purported " deficiency " if

Cousens has to keep citing this ONE guy in his eighties as the

poster child for purported " deficiency " --the only deficiency, is a

deficiency of people with " deficiency " , lol. We know nothing about

this purported case, nor even if the man was raw and/or vegan, and

obviously his body needed to heal and cleanse. Most vegans are

pretty unhealthy--one really needs to be raw fruitarian (eating

fruits, salads, nuts/seeds), and not consuming gimmicks and toxins

that most raw fooders consume, in order to be actually healthy. The

body of the man in his eighties was probably finally demanding a

fast!

 

> The personal

> physical, moral and spiritual reasons for succeeding at live food

> vegan diet, the shift in world consciousness and healing of the

> planetary ecology brings is a far greater gift than the ego

> gratification of holding on to a concept of naturalness.

 

The only " ego gratification " involved here is on the part of the raw

gurus who fan the flames of the baseless hysteria over

purported " B12 deficiency " . The " shift in world consciousness and

healing of the planetary ecology " demands honesty, integrity, truth,

shining the light on the insanity of the ridiculous dark-age belief

system of the medical profession (the symptom-suppression

profession), and what passes for " science " these days, which is

palliation via drugs, surgery, and now including the new age fashion

of drugging of people with " supplements " . Same old, same old.

 

Zsuzsa

[Guest guest]

rawfood , Rufus Shaw <rufus10_99> wrote:

> I think this

> is fine if it works for them, but feel that it's

> dangerous for them try to convince others not to

> supplement.

 

What's dangerous is the fashion among the raw gurus these days to

stir up hysteria about B12, and thus to get people to PALLIATE with

pills and injections. Palliation ensures that people ignore their

bodies' messages--the urgent plea on the part of the body that they

LIE DOWN and COMPLETELY REST, and FAST, when they have symptoms, so

that the body can cleanse, heal, repair itself. Palliation is

DANGEROUS, it is counter to health. Palliation ensures that the body

can NEVER cleanse, heal, and repair itself, as ONLY the body can do,

and ONLY when the body signals that it is READY to do so, by means

of SYMPTOMS, often DRAMATIC SYMPTOMS. Palliation ensures that the

body will retain its most deeply stored toxins permanently, and

therefore cut short the length of life. What " works " for us all, is

to give our bodies the conditions of life, and keep out the toxins,

including palliatives like pills and injections.

 

> The main

> reason for b12 deficiency is the depletion of cobalt

> levels in our soil.

 

Is this your theory? It's certainly not one I've heard previously,

though I've certainly heard all the theories about the purported

deficiency of bacteria. Again, it's the assertion of a

purported " deficiency " due to depletion of minerals in the soil.

However, what is deemed a " deficiency " by " science " today, is not.

Indeed, most raw fooders have been conditioned by raw gurus to spend

their time and energy looking for more and more " deficiencies " . The

continual paranoia and hysteria created by the witch hunt

for " deficiencies " is definitely NOT healthy, and derails raw vegans

into dead ends of unhealth.

 

Firstly, we need so little of most nutrients, including cobalt, that

even food grown in depleted soil supplies far more than we can use.

Especially once our bodies clean themselves out and are absorbing

optimally. If the soil is sufficiently mineralized for the plant to

be able to grow at all, then it's enough for us to get our nutrition

needs met. Of course it's much better to get food which has been

organically grown, from minerally diverse and rich soil. But the

hysteria over purportedly having " deficiencies " from eating food

grown in depleted soil is unwarranted. Believe it or not, this is

NOT the first time in history that soil has been depleted! Yet

humanity has managed to survive.

 

Secondly, the body is an astounding bio-chemical factory, among its

miraculous abilities. The body's ability to alchemically manufacture

nutrients it needs from whatever raw materials it has, is now being

discovered. That is why the most important thing is to NOT TOXIFY

THE BODY! If we can keep the body CLEAN, by NOT consuming toxins,

including " supplements " and other palliatives, the body can function

most efficiently, and take care of our needs. If we want a true

deficiency, the best way to get it is to keep palliating--

with " supplements " and other nonsense, which can only toxify the

body and interfere with the body's ability to do its work.

 

Thirdly, any REAL deficiencies CANNOT be taken care of by means of

palliating with pills, injections, or any other substance. We need

to give our bodies REAL FOOD, and the necessities of life. FASTING

CORRECTLY when the body demands a fast. Those are the only ways to

actually take care of any true deficiency. But we don't need to

concern ourselves with any deficiencies anyway--only our bodies can

fix them, and our bodies will guide us to exactly what we need,

whether it's a fruit, a plant, nut/seed, or whether we need to fast,

at each particular point in time. And further, NOTHING but the body

itself can take care of any real deficiencies we may have--any

interference by means of palliation with substances can only add to

our deficiency.

 

Zsuzsa

[Guest guest]

Thank you Zsuzsa for your input on this matter,

Your experience and studies regarding B-12 are a welcome contribution.

Although some may conclude that because you are not an MD, your thoughts on this

subject are not quite as relevant as they might otherwise be. I don't think this

is so. Having an MD attached to one's name, although impressive, is certainly no

guarantee of higher knowledge. In fact, I believe most people here would

probably agree, being an MD can actually be a retardant in the department of

open minded thinking. Over the years many " Doctors " have pointed out the errors

of my Raw Food philosophy, and reiterated the need for " Three square meals a day

of the basic food groups, with yearly checkups. "

No, having an MD in your title is not necessary. A fearless and open minded

inquiry is all that is truly needed and any of us here is capable of this.

With the playing field leveled and titles banished, your experiences and

insights prove just as worthy of deep reflection as any other so called

specialist.

Yours in Health,

karl

 

 

 

 

" When I gave food to the poor, they called me a saint; but when I asked why

people are poor, they called me a communist. "

-Brazilian Bishop Don Helder Camara

 

 

:  rawfood , Rufus Shaw <rufus10_99> wrote:

: :  I think this

: :  is fine if it works for them, but feel that it's

: :  dangerous for them try to convince others not to

: :  supplement.

:  What's dangerous is the fashion among the raw gurus these days to

:  stir up hysteria about B12, and thus to get people to PALLIATE with

:  pills and injections. Palliation ensures that people ignore their

:  bodies' messages--the urgent plea on the part of the body that they

:  LIE DOWN and COMPLETELY REST, and FAST, when they have symptoms, so

:  that the body can cleanse, heal, repair itself. Palliation is

:  DANGEROUS, it is counter to health. Palliation ensures that the body

:  can NEVER cleanse, heal, and repair itself, as ONLY the body can do,

:  and ONLY when the body signals that it is READY to do so, by means

:  of SYMPTOMS, often DRAMATIC SYMPTOMS. Palliation ensures that the

:  body will retain its most deeply stored toxins permanently, and

:  therefore cut short the length of life. What " works " for us all, is

:  to give our bodies the conditions of life, and keep out the toxins,

:  including palliatives like pills and injections.

: :  The main

: :  reason for b12 deficiency is the depletion of cobalt

: :  levels in our soil.

:  Is this your theory? It's certainly not one I've heard previously,

:  though I've certainly heard all the theories about the purported

:  deficiency of bacteria. Again, it's the assertion of a

:  purported " deficiency " due to depletion of minerals in the soil.

:  However, what is deemed a " deficiency " by " science " today, is not.

:  Indeed, most raw fooders have been conditioned by raw gurus to spend

:  their time and energy looking for more and more " deficiencies " . The

:  continual paranoia and hysteria created by the witch hunt

:  for " deficiencies " is definitely NOT healthy, and derails raw vegans

:  into dead ends of unhealth.

:  Firstly, we need so little of most nutrients, including cobalt, that

:  even food grown in depleted soil supplies far more than we can use.

:  Especially once our bodies clean themselves out and are absorbing

:  optimally. If the soil is sufficiently mineralized for the plant to

:  be able to grow at all, then it's enough for us to get our nutrition

:  needs met. Of course it's much better to get food which has been

:  organically grown, from minerally diverse and rich soil. But the

:  hysteria over purportedly having " deficiencies " from eating food

:  grown in depleted soil is unwarranted. Believe it or not, this is

:  NOT the first time in history that soil has been depleted! Yet

:  humanity has managed to survive.

:  Secondly, the body is an astounding bio-chemical factory, among its

:  miraculous abilities. The body's ability to alchemically manufacture

:  nutrients it needs from whatever raw materials it has, is now being

:  discovered. That is why the most important thing is to NOT TOXIFY

:  THE BODY! If we can keep the body CLEAN, by NOT consuming toxins,

:  including " supplements " and other palliatives, the body can function

:  most efficiently, and take care of our needs. If we want a true

:  deficiency, the best way to get it is to keep palliating--

:  with " supplements " and other nonsense, which can only toxify the

:  body and interfere with the body's ability to do its work.

:  Thirdly, any REAL deficiencies CANNOT be taken care of by means of

:  palliating with pills, injections, or any other substance. We need

:  to give our bodies REAL FOOD, and the necessities of life. FASTING

:  CORRECTLY when the body demands a fast. Those are the only ways to

:  actually take care of any true deficiency. But we don't need to

:  concern ourselves with any deficiencies anyway--only our bodies can

:  fix them, and our bodies will guide us to exactly what we need,

:  whether it's a fruit, a plant, nut/seed, or whether we need to fast,

:  at each particular point in time. And further, NOTHING but the body

:  itself can take care of any real deficiencies we may have--any

:  interference by means of palliation with substances can only add to

:  our deficiency.

:  Zsuzsa

:  

:  

:  

[Guest guest]

rawfood , Karl Anderson <carlo7@p...> wrote:

> Thank you Zsuzsa for your input on this matter,

> Your experience and studies regarding B-12 are a welcome

contribution.

 

Thank you so much, Karl, for your kind words!

 

> Although some may conclude that because you are not an MD, your

thoughts on this subject are not quite as relevant as they might

otherwise be. I don't think this is so. Having an MD attached to

one's name, although impressive, is certainly no guarantee of higher

knowledge. In fact, I believe most people here would probably agree,

being an MD can actually be a retardant in the department of open

minded thinking.

 

What is impressive about MD's to me is that they have gotten such a

close look at anatomy and physiology. Where they fall down is the

conclusions and beliefs they make about it all, which is based upon

false premises with which they are thoroughly indoctrinated. Just

think how valuable MD's could be if they were to use their knowledge

wisely! The beginnings of Hygiene were all by MD's, they were

doctors with such integrity that they departed from their

indoctrination and actually sought truth, and of course it was there

to be found. It probably required MD's to actually find where the

medical profession went astray and to show how it could be set

right. Unfortunately, the truth remains hidden to most people since

there's not much money to be made from telling people to eat fruit

and sleep a lot, lol. And the medical profession of today permits

only the modalities of drugs and surgery to MD's, otherwise they

revoke the MD's license!

 

> A fearless and open minded inquiry is all that is truly needed and

any of us here is capable of this.

> With the playing field leveled and titles banished, your

experiences and insights prove just as worthy of deep reflection as

any other so called specialist.

 

Very eloquently put. And it's true, Nature opens her arms to embrace

all who seek health. Ultimately, the less one " knows " , i.e., the

misinformation with which our society fills us, the healthier one

is. Babies, animals, plants, insects, microorganisms--all know

everything we need to know about health. We need to unlearn the

untruths, reverse our direction, and let our bodies lead us, for it

is only the incredible omniscient wisdom and knowledge of our bodies

that can ever lead us to health.

 

All the best,

 

Zsuzsa

[Guest guest]

Not to scare anyone...but I hear it's very insidious, as well. Damage to your nerves can be happening without your realizing it...until it is too late.

 

Every vegan should take B12.

 

I am looking to feeling better taking supplements. I may take Ultimate Meal...any one take it?

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 1/10/05 9:33:01 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, writes:

> So if I can make it through the vital youth years, puberty etc when will this lack of attention to B12 materialise??? My (limited) understanding is that B-12 deficiency is something which tends to show up in later life - it tends to leave weaknesses in the body that cause problems later on, rather than immediate symptoms.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Usually, when nerves are damaged, it is because the person is unable to make 'intrinsic factor' which utilises the Vitamin B12 in the diet. Usually these people are obtaining plenty of B12 but cannot use it because of this lack.

 

Although this is the case I take vegan vitamins and minerals including B12, as it should help, and certainly won't harm.

 

Jo

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Monday, January 10, 2005 7:24 PM

Re: B12

 

 

Not to scare anyone...but I hear it's very insidious, as well. Damage to your nerves can be happening without your realizing it...until it is too late.

 

Every vegan should take B12.

 

I am looking to feeling better taking supplements. I may take Ultimate Meal...any one take it?

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 1/10/05 9:33:01 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, writes:

> So if I can make it through the vital youth years, puberty etc when will this lack of attention to B12 materialise??? My (limited) understanding is that B-12 deficiency is something which tends to show up in later life - it tends to leave weaknesses in the body that cause problems later on, rather than immediate symptoms.

 

To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Has anybody tried Veglife multi-vitamin supplements,- 100% vegan,- I've bought some for my children,

 

thanks,

 

Jo

 

 

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Monday, January 10, 2005 7:24 PM

Re: B12

 

 

Not to scare anyone...but I hear it's very insidious, as well. Damage to your nerves can be happening without your realizing it...until it is too late.

 

Every vegan should take B12.

 

I am looking to feeling better taking supplements. I may take Ultimate Meal...any one take it?

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 1/10/05 9:33:01 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, writes:

> So if I can make it through the vital youth years, puberty etc when will this lack of attention to B12 materialise??? My (limited) understanding is that B-12 deficiency is something which tends to show up in later life - it tends to leave weaknesses in the body that cause problems later on, rather than immediate symptoms.

 

To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

I tried to become a vegan but it was just to diffucult, right now I'm eating a baked potato with butter and cheese.

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Joanne wrote:

 

> Has anybody tried Veglife multi-vitamin supplements,- 100% vegan,- I've

bought some for my children,

 

Yeah, I recently got some because the usual multivitamins I take

(Nutrilan, from Landau) were out of stock. Within a few minutes of taking

the Veglife ones, I experienced extreme nausea and nearly vomited.

Recalling that I'd had a very similar reaction (in fact I really *did*

vomit) after taking one of those zinc tablets for a cold, I checked the

labels, and found that while both Veglife and Nutrilan contain zinc,

Veglife contains a lot more of it. I have since found that if I take the

Veglife vitamins on a full stomach, I don't get sick from it. Still, I

think once I use up this bottle, I'm going to stick with Nutrilan.

 

Jim Sinclair jisincla

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Joanne wrote:> Has anybody tried Veglife multi-vitamin supplements,- 100% vegan,- I've bought some for my children,

My husband and I use a brand called "Deva". It's really good. I can try to figure out where online we got them if you want.

Valerie

Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'

[Guest guest]

you mean a bake potato with cow pus fat and solid cow pus

 

 

 

Re: B12I tried to become a vegan but it was just to diffucult, right now I'm eating a baked potato with butter and cheese.