OT: So grateful for these lists

[Guest guest]

I am posting this to my two favorite lists (mcd12day and )

just to say thank you to you all for two spaces where I feel welcomed

and like I fit in. Let's just say that my first couple days on the

McDougall boards have been... challenging. There's a lot of fat hatred

over there, and while I'm happy to just be the cheerful fat girl who

doesn't agree that everyone who's not thin isn't necessarily unhealthy

(and, likewise, that people who aren't healthy aren't necessarily

lacking in moral character), it's so nice to have you folks to come

" home " to.

 

Thanks, everyone!

 

Serene

[Guest guest]

Serene wrote:

 

>I am posting this to my two favorite lists (mcd12day and )

>just to say thank you to you all for two spaces where I feel welcomed

>and like I fit in. Let's just say that my first couple days on the

>McDougall boards have been... challenging. There's a lot of fat hatred

>over there, and while I'm happy to just be the cheerful fat girl who

>doesn't agree that everyone who's not thin isn't necessarily unhealthy

>(and, likewise, that people who aren't healthy aren't necessarily

>lacking in moral character), it's so nice to have you folks to come

> " home " to.

>

>Thanks, everyone!

>

>Serene

>

>

>

>

Serene,

 

I am sorry for your experience. I had a very positive experience there.

Recovering health is, imo, a journey. No one can accomplish it in one day.

Slow and steady wins the race, as they say.

 

Take care,

 

Aly

[Guest guest]

Alyza wrote:

 

> I am sorry for your experience. I had a very positive experience

> there. Recovering health is, imo, a journey. No one can

> accomplish it in one day. Slow and steady wins the race, as they

> say.

 

It's not all bad, to be fair. I'm already meeting some folks I get along

well with, and have already had someone thank me for a post. It's just

that I do tire of this idea that the only good vegan is a thin vegan, as

though people don't have enough to worry about.

 

Serene

[Guest guest]

Recent data actually seems to indicate that thin is not healthy either. Moderation always seems to come out on top. Serene, may edit the truism you shared? "The only good vegan is a compassionate one." It may be no more true than the other (because it implies lack of compassion in of itself). It might miss the bull's eye, but at least it lands the target!!

 

 

-

Serene

mcd12day ;

Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:48 PM

OT: So grateful for these lists

 

 

I am posting this to my two favorite lists (mcd12day and ) just to say thank you to you all for two spaces where I feel welcomed and like I fit in. Let's just say that my first couple days on the McDougall boards have been... challenging. There's a lot of fat hatred over there, and while I'm happy to just be the cheerful fat girl who doesn't agree that everyone who's not thin isn't necessarily unhealthy (and, likewise, that people who aren't healthy aren't necessarily lacking in moral character), it's so nice to have you folks to come "home" to.Thanks, everyone!Serene

[Guest guest]

On 4/13/08, Serene <serene-lists wrote:

>

> It's just

> that I do tire of this idea that the only good vegan is a thin vegan, as

> though people don't have enough to worry about.

 

Oh, goodness, I'd have a very hard time with aggressively anti-fat

people. I've lost about 75 pounds but that puts me at about 222

pounds. So my mind can't decide whether I'm " skinny " (because I'm so

much smaller than I was) or " fat " (because, well, I am.) And, judging

by how much time it's taken to get this far, I'm not going to be

anywhere near a " healthy BMI " for another year (or more), I'd guess.

 

I'm at a very delicate place in my personal and physical evolution and

probably couldn't bear up very well at all under any sort of " fat

scrutiny, " especially because I'm in such a strange point in my quest

for health (and it doesn't help that my husband keeps telling me not

to " stress about it " because I'll " never weigh less than 200 pounds. "

I have no idea what weight my body will settle into, but it doesn't

help to have someone else trying to set limits on it before it's had a

chance to decide for itself.)

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

Nice, Sparrow!!

 

 

-

Sparrow R Jones

Sunday, April 13, 2008 5:29 PM

Re: OT: So grateful for these lists

 

 

On 4/13/08, Serene <serene-lists (AT) serenepages (DOT) org> wrote:>> It's just> that I do tire of this idea that the only good vegan is a thin vegan, as> though people don't have enough to worry about.Oh, goodness, I'd have a very hard time with aggressively anti-fatpeople. I've lost about 75 pounds but that puts me at about 222pounds. So my mind can't decide whether I'm "skinny" (because I'm somuch smaller than I was) or "fat" (because, well, I am.) And, judgingby how much time it's taken to get this far, I'm not going to beanywhere near a "healthy BMI" for another year (or more), I'd guess.I'm at a very delicate place in my personal and physical evolution andprobably couldn't bear up very well at all under any sort of "fatscrutiny," especially because I'm in such a strange point in my questfor health (and it doesn't help that my husband keeps telling me notto "stress about it" because I'll "never weigh less than 200 pounds."I have no idea what weight my body will settle into, but it doesn'thelp to have someone else trying to set limits on it before it's had achance to decide for itself.)Sparrow

[Guest guest]

Janet Coe Hammond wrote:

> Recent data actually seems to indicate that thin is not healthy

> either. Moderation always seems to come out on top. Serene, may

> edit the truism you shared? " The only good vegan is a compassionate

> one. " It may be no more true than the other (because it implies lack

> of compassion in of itself). It might miss the bull's eye, but at

> least it lands the target!!

 

:-) I think I'll just stay out of the business of judging who's a good

vegan and who's not, but I do think you're on the right track. Thanks!

 

Serene

[Guest guest]

Sparrow R Jones wrote:

 

> I'm at a very delicate place in my personal and physical evolution

> and probably couldn't bear up very well at all under any sort of " fat

> scrutiny, " especially because I'm in such a strange point in my

> quest for health (and it doesn't help that my husband keeps telling

> me not to " stress about it " because I'll " never weigh less than 200

> pounds. " I have no idea what weight my body will settle into, but it

> doesn't help to have someone else trying to set limits on it before

> it's had a chance to decide for itself.)

 

Sparrow, I could just squeeze the stuffing out of you for this post.

 

Serene

[Guest guest]

Kim wrote:

> I see very little correlation between weight/size and veganism.

> We're all unique and that diversity is what makes this world so

> wonderful. Granted, not eating processed, fat-laden (particularly

> animal-derived), fake food typically causes a degree of weightloss

> (unless you're eating massive quantities and never getting any

> exercise) but for some that loss can be measured by how many fingers

> you can count on one or two hands while others it may take a

> calculator.

 

And some people just don't lose weight if they change what they eat.

People are so individual!

 

> I have no tolerance for such prejudice; in my opinion it

> is the epitome of ignorance.

 

I think that it's hard to see fat and health in a sane way in this

culture. I am happy to see so many people in my life (a lot of them on

these lists) who understand that weight and health are two separate

issues, and that being fat (or unhealthy, for that matter) doesn't make

a person unworthy of respect.

 

> My apologies to any I may have

> offended.

>

> Just remember, Serene, never let anyone convince you that you should

> be any way other than your wonderful self.

 

Thank you, Kim!

 

Serene

[Guest guest]

Hi Serene,

 

I, too, am very thankful for this group. I am neither fat free nor

vegan, but I've never felt anything less than welcome here. I have

made attempts at a vegan lifestyle and certainly have come a ways

during the 15 years I've been vegetarian, but I'm still not there.

 

I love this group! I've tried many of the recipes shared here and

stored at the FatFreeVegan web site, and have never tried one I haven't

liked. I think Susan is the best list-mom ever and this is a great,

warm group of folks.

 

Serene, sometimes folks can be pretty narrow-minded; I hope you won't

let the narrow thoughts of others shape how you feel about yourself, &

hope you'll continue to let your light shine brightly.

 

Sheri

 

, Serene <serene-lists wrote:

>

> I am posting this to my two favorite lists (mcd12day and

)

> just to say thank you to you all for two spaces where I feel welcomed

> and like I fit in. Let's just say that my first couple days on the

> McDougall boards have been... challenging. There's a lot of fat

hatred

> over there, and while I'm happy to just be the cheerful fat girl who

> doesn't agree that everyone who's not thin isn't necessarily

unhealthy

> (and, likewise, that people who aren't healthy aren't necessarily

> lacking in moral character), it's so nice to have you folks to come

> " home " to.

>

> Thanks, everyone!

>

> Serene

>

[Guest guest]

Very well stated, Kim:-)

 

Sheri

 

, " Kim " <timkim wrote:

>>

> Just remember, Serene, never let anyone convince you that you should

be any way other than your wonderful self.

>

> Be happy!

> Kim

>

>

[Guest guest]

I see very little correlation between weight/size and veganism. We're all unique and that diversity is what makes this world so wonderful. Granted, not eating processed, fat-laden (particularly animal-derived), fake food typically causes a degree of weightloss (unless you're eating massive quantities and never getting any exercise) but for some that loss can be measured by how many fingers you can count on one or two hands while others it may take a calculator. I have no tolerance for such prejudice; in my opinion it is the epitome of ignorance. My apologies to any I may have offended.

 

Just remember, Serene, never let anyone convince you that you should be any way other than your wonderful self.

 

Be happy!

Kim

 

-

 

Serene

Sunday, April 13, 2008 6:08 PM

Re: OT: So grateful for these lists

 

 

Alyza wrote:> I am sorry for your experience. I had a very positive experience> there. Recovering health is, imo, a journey. No one can> accomplish it in one day. Slow and steady wins the race, as they> say.It's not all bad, to be fair. I'm already meeting some folks I get along well with, and have already had someone thank me for a post. It's just that I do tire of this idea that the only good vegan is a thin vegan, as though people don't have enough to worry about.Serene

[Guest guest]

Kim wrote:

> On the scale of metabolism, mine ranks somewhere around a slug. I

> blame a very small part of that on the genes my robust-sized

> ancestors have left as a legacy and more on a lifetime of unhealthy

> diet-practices (starving, low-carb, shakes, etc, etc) before becoming

> a health-conscious vegan 2 years ago. I was truly hoping to lose a

> ton (pardon the pun) of weight by eating not only super-dooper

> healthy foods, but also in smaller, quality-filled quantities. I

> reasoned by feeding my body food it could use, I'd lose weight to a

> " normal " size over time. Well, it sounded logical, at least. In

> fact, unless I strictly stick to only eating veggies and those like

> lettuce, celery, cucumbers, and the such I will actually gain weight.

> Forget about fruit, nuts, and grains. I used to punish myself and at

> times even loathed myself for being such a failure with my weight.

> But even though I'll probably always obsess about my weight/size

> (thank you, society standards) I've finally accepted that I am who I

> am and as long as I'm eating healthy, exercising, and loving me, then

> I'm light years ahead of the average person.

 

That's beautiful, Kim. Thanks for taking the time to share that.

 

Serene

[Guest guest]

moondance3591 wrote:

> Hi Serene,

>

> I, too, am very thankful for this group. I am neither fat free nor

> vegan, but I've never felt anything less than welcome here. I have

> made attempts at a vegan lifestyle and certainly have come a ways

> during the 15 years I've been vegetarian, but I'm still not there.

>

> I love this group! I've tried many of the recipes shared here and

> stored at the FatFreeVegan web site, and have never tried one I

> haven't liked. I think Susan is the best list-mom ever and this is a

> great, warm group of folks.

>

> Serene, sometimes folks can be pretty narrow-minded; I hope you won't

> let the narrow thoughts of others shape how you feel about yourself,

> & hope you'll continue to let your light shine brightly.

 

Thank you so much! And I agree with your assessments of Susan and the

list. :-)

 

Serene

[Guest guest]

On the scale of metabolism, mine ranks somewhere around a slug. I blame a very small part of that on the genes my robust-sized ancestors have left as a legacy and more on a lifetime of unhealthy diet-practices (starving, low-carb, shakes, etc, etc) before becoming a health-conscious vegan 2 years ago. I was truly hoping to lose a ton (pardon the pun) of weight by eating not only super-dooper healthy foods, but also in smaller, quality-filled quantities. I reasoned by feeding my body food it could use, I'd lose weight to a "normal" size over time. Well, it sounded logical, at least. In fact, unless I strictly stick to only eating veggies and those like lettuce, celery, cucumbers, and the such I will actually gain weight. Forget about fruit, nuts, and grains. I used to punish myself and at times even loathed myself for being such a failure with my weight. But even though I'll probably always obsess about my weight/size (thank you, society standards) I've finally accepted that I am who I am and as long as I'm eating healthy, exercising, and loving me, then I'm light years ahead of the average person.

 

Take care.

Kim

 

 

-

Serene

Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:09 PM

Re: OT: So grateful for these lists

 

 

Kim wrote:> I see very little correlation between weight/size and veganism.> We're all unique and that diversity is what makes this world so> wonderful. Granted, not eating processed, fat-laden (particularly> animal-derived), fake food typically causes a degree of weightloss> (unless you're eating massive quantities and never getting any> exercise) but for some that loss can be measured by how many fingers> you can count on one or two hands while others it may take a> calculator.And some people just don't lose weight if they change what they eat. People are so individual!> I have no tolerance for such prejudice; in my opinion it> is the epitome of ignorance. I think that it's hard to see fat and health in a sane way in this culture. I am happy to see so many people in my life (a lot of them on these lists) who understand that weight and health are two separate issues, and that being fat (or unhealthy, for that matter) doesn't make a person unworthy of respect.> My apologies to any I may have> offended.>> Just remember, Serene, never let anyone convince you that you should> be any way other than your wonderful self.Thank you, Kim!Serene

[Guest guest]

Hi Ladies

 

I’m new to this list and have been

printing the recipes you guys publish for my wife to try on us. I have been on

Dr. Esselstyn’s “whole food plant based diet with no fat or oil

added” for a year now.

My motivation is to reverse heart disease,

but I want to share with you my weight results. After 2 open heart surgeries a

CABGx5, a replaced aortic valve and another CABGx2 I started treating the cause

of heart disease instead of the symptoms. I am now growing new arteries in my heart

to replace 5 failed bypass grafts. I can now run a marathon. I could write a

book on this subject. Before I get on my soap box let me share with you my

experience with weight. When you eliminate processed food and eat whole food

plant based your body will return to your natural genetic weight. I am now at

my high school weight and never worry about how much I eat. I do a lot of

exercise and eat all the plant bases food I want. Your weight will stabilize at

your “natural genetic weight”.

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Serene

Sunday, April 13, 2008 9:48

PM

 

Re: OT:

So grateful for these lists

 

 

 

 

 

Kim wrote:

> On the scale of metabolism, mine ranks somewhere around a slug. I

> blame a very small part of that on the genes my robust-sized

> ancestors have left as a legacy and more on a lifetime of unhealthy

> diet-practices (starving, low-carb, shakes, etc, etc) before becoming

> a health-conscious vegan 2 years ago. I was truly hoping to lose a

> ton (pardon the pun) of weight by eating not only super-dooper

> healthy foods, but also in smaller, quality-filled quantities. I

> reasoned by feeding my body food it could use, I'd lose weight to a

> " normal " size over time. Well, it sounded logical, at least. In

> fact, unless I strictly stick to only eating veggies and those like

> lettuce, celery, cucumbers, and the such I will actually gain weight.

> Forget about fruit, nuts, and grains. I used to punish myself and at

> times even loathed myself for being such a failure with my weight.

> But even though I'll probably always obsess about my weight/size

> (thank you, society standards) I've finally accepted that I am who I

> am and as long as I'm eating healthy, exercising, and loving me, then

> I'm light years ahead of the average person.

 

That's beautiful, Kim. Thanks for taking the time to share that.

 

Serene

[Guest guest]

On 4/13/08, Serene <serene-lists wrote:

>

> Sparrow, I could just squeeze the stuffing out of you for this post.

 

awww....

*blushes and hugs back*

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

On 4/13/08, John Belluardo <john wrote:

>

> Your weight will stabilize at your " natural genetic weight " .

 

Dr. Neal Barnard (head of PCRM and author of a program for reversing

diabetes) says that's true for about 80% of people. There are about

20% of people who will not achieve that goal through diet and exercise

for various reasons. A really common one in today's society,

unfortunately, is damage to the metabolism and thyroid caused by

extremely low calorie (below 1000 calories per day) diets in the past.

 

I think it is important to remind people that *not everyone* will

achieve their " natural genetic weight " through diet and exercise

because it's really devastating for those who aren't able to achieve

that goal to keep hearing that they *ought* to be able to (while the

underlying health causes are ignored.) For that 20%, it's far too easy

to translate the biological failure into a personal and moral failure

and I'd hope to spare anyone that sort of misery.

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

Wow, John - that's really terrific!!

 

 

-

John Belluardo

Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:30 PM

RE: OT: So grateful for these lists

 

 

 

 

Hi Ladies

 

I’m new to this list and have been printing the recipes you guys publish for my wife to try on us. I have been on Dr. Esselstyn’s “whole food plant based diet with no fat or oil added” for a year now.

My motivation is to reverse heart disease, but I want to share with you my weight results. After 2 open heart surgeries a CABGx5, a replaced aortic valve and another CABGx2 I started treating the cause of heart disease instead of the symptoms. I am now growing new arteries in my heart to replace 5 failed bypass grafts. I can now run a marathon. I could write a book on this subject. Before I get on my soap box let me share with you my experience with weight. When you eliminate processed food and eat whole food plant based your body will return to your natural genetic weight. I am now at my high school weight and never worry about how much I eat. I do a lot of exercise and eat all the plant bases food I want. Your weight will stabilize at your “natural genetic weight”.

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of SereneSunday, April 13, 2008 9:48 PM Subject: Re: OT: So grateful for these lists

 

 

 

 

Kim wrote:> On the scale of metabolism, mine ranks somewhere around a slug. I> blame a very small part of that on the genes my robust-sized> ancestors have left as a legacy and more on a lifetime of unhealthy> diet-practices (starving, low-carb, shakes, etc, etc) before becoming> a health-conscious vegan 2 years ago. I was truly hoping to lose a> ton (pardon the pun) of weight by eating not only super-dooper> healthy foods, but also in smaller, quality-filled quantities. I> reasoned by feeding my body food it could use, I'd lose weight to a> "normal" size over time. Well, it sounded logical, at least. In> fact, unless I strictly stick to only eating veggies and those like> lettuce, celery, cucumbers, and the such I will actually gain weight.> Forget about fruit, nuts, and grains. I used to punish myself and at> times even loathed myself for being such a failure with my weight.> But even though I'll probably always obsess about my weight/size> (thank you, society standards) I've finally accepted that I am who I> am and as long as I'm eating healthy, exercising, and loving me, then> I'm light years ahead of the average person.That's beautiful, Kim. Thanks for taking the time to share that.Serene

[Guest guest]

On 4/13/08, Janet Coe Hammond <janetcoe wrote:

>

> Wow, John - that's really terrific!!

 

I agree, it *is* terrific!

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

::raises hand::

 

Count me as a 20%'er with the damaged metabolism (starvation dieting for decades) and dysfunctional thyroid (for which I take meds), and polycystic ovaries. Need I say more? ;p I fear left on it own to stabilize, my weight would never stop rising. I know this from experience having lost 200 pounds and how hard it is to keep it off. It's a battle that dominates my every waking moment.

 

Kim

 

-

Sparrow R Jones

Sunday, April 13, 2008 8:58 PM

Re: OT: So grateful for these lists

 

 

On 4/13/08, John Belluardo <john (AT) belluardo (DOT) org> wrote:>> Your weight will stabilize at your "natural genetic weight".Dr. Neal Barnard (head of PCRM and author of a program for reversingdiabetes) says that's true for about 80% of people. There are about20% of people who will not achieve that goal through diet and exercisefor various reasons. A really common one in today's society,unfortunately, is damage to the metabolism and thyroid caused byextremely low calorie (below 1000 calories per day) diets in the past.I think it is important to remind people that *not everyone* willachieve their "natural genetic weight" through diet and exercisebecause it's really devastating for those who aren't able to achievethat goal to keep hearing that they *ought* to be able to (while theunderlying health causes are ignored.) For that 20%, it's far too easyto translate the biological failure into a personal and moral failureand I'd hope to spare anyone that sort of misery.Sparrow

[Guest guest]

Hey Sparrow. I’ve been as high as 296 (that I know of, I didn’t like to get on scales much then) and about a year ago as low at 196, but now I tend to settle at 235-240. It’s a hard journey to health but for me it doesn’t equal thin. That would be nice, but healthy is my goal.

 

Anna

 

 

On 14/4/08 10:29 AM, " Sparrow R Jones " <sparrowrose wrote:

 

I'm at a very delicate place in my personal and physical evolution and

probably couldn't bear up very well at all under any sort of " fat

scrutiny, " especially because I'm in such a strange point in my quest

for health (and it doesn't help that my husband keeps telling me not

to " stress about it " because I'll " never weigh less than 200 pounds. "

I have no idea what weight my body will settle into, but it doesn't

help to have someone else trying to set limits on it before it's had a

chance to decide for itself.)

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

On 4/14/08, Coop <rodstruelove wrote:

>

> Hey Sparrow. I've been as high as 296 (that I know of, I didn't

> like to get on scales much then) and about a year ago as low

> at 196, but now I tend to settle at 235-240. It's a hard journey

> to health but for me it doesn't equal thin. That would be nice,

> but healthy is my goal.

 

I don't mind not being thin, but I don't consider myself to be at goal

right now because I still have the big " six months pregnant belly "

that is SOOOO dangerous (especially with my diabetes.) I don't care

what my final weight is, but I HAVE to get rid of this abdominal fat

or I know what will happen. (Most of my family has diabetes and are

missing legs and/or died young.)

 

The stigma of overweight and obesity is significant and definitely a

concern of mine as I get closer to graduation and that time when I

will be going out into the market to interview for positions. But that

stigma is nothing compared to the flat-out sheer panic I feel when I

allow myself to stop and think about this big belly and what it means

for my health outlook.

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

Hey all whats up. I just wanted to say that it is everybody's problem in the world. I use to be 275lbs. I dropped down to 215lbs by some yoga, eating low carbs, light jogging in place for 1 hr three times a week, and getting as much sleep as possible, but from time to time I have bad body days ( kind of like bad hair days ). We as vegans are like koala bears, because of our diet, we need to reserve more energy then meat eaters. I've read something of value when I googled about enzymes and the effects of wheat to us vegans. I read that when we cook our food we cook out the enzymes that we need that gives us energy. I'm sure we've all heard this before. Next I've read that wheat suppresses our body from absorbing

iron. Last I was told by a doctor that the only way to "really" get rid of fat is to have liposuction. I heard that you can exercise and become skinny, with a six pack, but you will never get rid of the fat cells our body built up. This is why we can't eat anything fattening, because as soon as we do those fat cells engorge themselves with the fat of what we ate. This happens to all of us. I get angry at the fat and act like its the devil, and I exercise like I'm shouting the devil out of me in an evangelical church. It works for me. Most of the time it does. Coop <rodstruelove Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:28:01

AMRe: OT: So grateful for these lists

 

 

Hey Sparrow. I¢ve been as high as 296 (that I know of, I didn¢t like to get on scales much then) and about a year ago as low at 196, but now I tend to settle at 235-240. It¢s a hard journey to health but for me it doesn¢t equal thin. That would be nice, but healthy is my goal.

 

Anna

 

 

On 14/4/08 10:29 AM, "Sparrow R Jones" <sparrowrose@ gmail.com> wrote:

 

I'm at a very delicate place in my personal and physical evolution and

probably couldn't bear up very well at all under any sort of "fat

scrutiny," especially because I'm in such a strange point in my quest

for health (and it doesn't help that my husband keeps telling me not

to "stress about it" because I'll "never weigh less than 200 pounds."

I have no idea what weight my body will settle into, but it doesn't

help to have someone else trying to set limits on it before it's had a

chance to decide for itself.)

 

Sparrow

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On 4/14/08, candyazz28 <candyazz28 wrote:

>

> We as vegans are like koala bears, because of our

> diet, we need to reserve more energy then meat eaters.

 

That's a myth. Human energy comes from carbs, not protein. Eating lots

of meat gives a carnivore energy, but we humans get our energy from

plant foods - whether we also eat meat or not.

 

Sparrow