disturbing interview

[Guest guest]

http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/interview-nazariah.html

 

What's your take on this? Anyone? I really like Nazariah so this makes me very

confused!

 

Comments, please.

 

Shari

 

 

[Guest guest]

Shari,

 

The only quibble I have with this is that I think he should be naming these raw

food leaders who are having problems with the diet and hiding it from their

followers. Otherwise it makes everyone suspect, even the ones who don't have

problems.

 

Mark

-

Shari Viger

Undisclosed-Recipient:;

Monday, May 10, 2004 7:16 AM

[RawSeattle] disturbing interview

 

 

http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/interview-nazariah.html

 

What's your take on this? Anyone? I really like Nazariah so this makes me

very confused!

 

Comments, please.

 

Shari

 

[Guest guest]

Hi, Shari -

 

Re. the vitamin B-12 - that is an identified deficiency problem in both

cooked and raw vegans who are not taking supplements. As this person

mentioned, Dr. Gabriel Cousens now does recommend regular B-12

supplementation for vegans because of that concern. I have long advocated

B-12 supplements as a prevention to avoid the neurological damage (which is

irreversible, by the way) that comes with long-term deficiency.

 

Re. the baby that died (and family) in Florida - I knew that some folks

would hold that up as an example of how " dangerous " the raw vegan diet is.

In reality, that baby was not being breast-fed, and I would expect that the

older children also were not breast-fed, especially given their close ages,

since breast feeding promotes natural family spacing. Breast milk is the

original, ultimate living, raw food for a growing infant, toddler, and

preschooler (yes). If a child is being raised raw, they really must be

breast fed beyond the mainstream recommendation of 1 year, to provide the

nutrition that is so vital during that age. It is true that it would be

difficult for a growing child to derive adequate nutrition from a diet

composed exclusively of the foods that you and I can do fine on. Therefore

the breast milk must continue to be provided, maybe until the child is 4-5

years of age. This is done in other cultures and nobody thinks twice about

it.

 

Without knowing exactly what these people (who died) were eating, it's

impossible to assess what might have gone wrong. There are some people who

think that we can become " breatharians " and avoid eating altogether. It's

also possible that, as suspected among mainstream professionals, that the

raw diet, along with the practices of colon cleansing, etc., can become a

great cover for a person who may have a serious eating disorder. While not

everybody who is raw has an eating disorder, I suspect that there are some

who do, and by eating very little food one could indeed " waste away to

nothing " , at which point the body is feeding on vital lean muscle, including

the heart. If a person in addition was practicing bulimia and/or frequent

colon cleanses (which would replace the laxative use that is more typical

among bulimics) one could deplete their electrolytes, which can also be

fatal to the heart. (The leader of the Eugene group could actually be sued

for practicing medicine without a license in the mentioned

situation...whenever anybody has chest pains, or any other major medical

symptoms, it would not be a good idea to say " oh, it's only detox " . No, if

you have major medical symptoms, you call 911.)

 

As in any eating practice, there is the potential for misuse and

less-than-ideal intake. (As well as excessive intake...I still can't lose

that last 20 pounds, even after 3 years raw!) Among the omnivorous diets,

especially the junk food & fast food eaters, nutritional deficiencies and

other malnutrition manifest themselves over a longer period of time, so a

person doesn't look or feel sick. In a nation of growing obesity, the

overweight person becomes more normal-looking. Even with the cooked vegan

diet, there is still potential for a less-ideal intake that still will not

manifest itself, because of the ready availability of vegan alternative

products, such as chips, pop, cookies, bread, etc. I think that the raw

vegan diet has less room for mistakes than any of these others, and thus may

seem to be less forgiving, so to speak, if a person becomes too restrictive

and limited over time.

 

Re. the use of animal products: I do have to think that there was a reason

why so many cultures did end up using animal products, and that was likely

for sheer survival. I grew up on raw cows milk, but most cultures turn

their milk into a fermented product like cheese or yogurt because they do

not tolerate the straight milk. Also, historically, most cultures did

include animal flesh, but it was not all the time, because there was a lot

of work involved in catching an animal, and they weren't always successful.

When they caught a large animal, the entire village feasted on that one

animal until it was gone. On our farm in Oregon we raised our own meat

(pork, chicken, turkey, and we traded pork to my sister for the grass-fed

beef that they raise), I have to think that was much better than the

factory-farmed stuff in the stores.

 

I also would like to hear names of those raw vegan speakers who were caught

eating cooked food in the airport after their speaking engagement!! That

would be like catching Robert Cohen at a Baskin-Robbins!! Whoever these

people are should be excluded from speaking at raw festivals, because those

who are new to the movement are looking to them as examples of how healthy

the lifestyle is. If there are problems, we need to know. Sometimes I

think a nice vegetable curry with brown basmati rice, lentil dahl, and

chapatti would taste good, and I want to make sure that it's worthwhile to

continue to avoid these foods! Articles like this certainly can cast doubt

among our movement.

 

Those are my thoughts -

 

Sue

 

 

Shari Viger [shavig]

Monday, May 10, 2004 7:16 AM

Undisclosed-Recipient:;

[RawSeattle] disturbing interview

 

http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/interview-nazariah.html

 

What's your take on this? Anyone? I really like Nazariah so this makes me

very confused!

 

Comments, please.

 

Shari

 

 

[Guest guest]

This interview illustrates just how gullible, susceptible, fearful and insecure

we in the raw

food movement (for lack of a better name) are that we can so easily be made to

feel less than

confident about what we're doing.

 

Mark has a good point, it would be nice to know who the guy is talking about.

Are we to

believe that all raw food authors and leaders are hiding physical disabilities

like having

trouble walking, " B12 anemia " , etc.? Since he doesn't name names it seems like

that's what he

wants us to think. Personally, my favorite " leader " is Loren Lockman, not only

because what

he's doing works and has been demonstrated to work, but because I know he walks

the talk.

Maybe you've never met him, Shari. If you did I'm sure it would be as obvious

to you as it is

to me that he has no hidden physical disabilities. He's been raw and vegan for

12 years. The

same goes for Robert Rust (15 years), Joyce Divic (7 years, I believe), Eric

Farris (3 1/2

years), and myself (3 1/2 years). We really ARE healthy, we're not faking it.

People who are

tempted to doubt whether a raw vegan diet is optimal for humans need only ask

what it is that

all five of us (among many others who are succeeding) have in common. There's a

right way to

be raw, and there are many, many wrong ways.

 

In order for me to give any credence even to this person's first-hand

experiences with his own

diet (forget the rest, there is no credence to be had), I'd have to know,

firstly, what he was

eating during the 5 years he was " raw vegan " ? It is well known and acknowledged

by everyone

who understands health that it is not enough to be raw and vegan. A person can

create real

difficulties for himself if mistakes are made, especially over that length of

time.

 

Secondly, has the protein horse not been beaten into China by now, for cryin'

out loud? There

are dozens of facts that can serve to ease our minds regarding protein. The one

I love to use

is the mother's milk analogy. I've yet to hear one comment from anyone that

even begins to

refute the obvious and logical good sense of it. Anyone who has the slightest

doubt that we

can get all the protein we need from vegan foods has a lot of learning and

UN-learning to do.

 

To make some of their points (which are usually centered around making us

fearful enough to

buy their supplements), some raw food leaders like to use the vegan studies that

have been

done that show vegans to be less than healthy. The vegan diet that is eaten in

ALL of these

studies is known to be disease-causing. Is it any wonder that there is disease

among people

who eat it? Here's an idea for a study: Find 1,000 people who eat like Loren

Lockman, Robert

Rust or I do, follow them around for 20 years and have them report all their

symptoms. If a

study like that was ever done, and showed that the subjects had problems that

could be related

exclusively to their diets (which would be darn near impossible), it might be

worth looking

at. Even then there would be SO much contrary information to consider that it

would be

impossible to indict their diets as the source of the problems.

 

I'm disappointed in Frederic for giving this person a forum from which to plant

seeds of doubt

in the minds of people who are struggling to discern truth from BS. This

article is so full

of the latter (including the nonsensical, undying B-12 concern), I couldn't even

begin to have

time to elucidate all the errors in its conclusions.

 

Thanks, Shari, for posting this so we could expose it for what it is!

 

Nora

[Guest guest]

I'm here in beautiful Florida, and I have gone out to the Kwatamani

families farm many times. The High Priest has been raw for 35 years and

has children born and raised raw for 30 years. All the children look

great, and healthy, some even strong and stocky. Here is some food for

thought.

 

The Kwatamani live without supplements and live a natural farming and

eating from the earth. I feel that a lot of people just don't have

enough experience about raw food or raising raw children. I have always

gotten the answers for raising children or any other dietary concern

answered by the High Priest Kwatamani.

 

I feel that living somewhere where there is a lot of sunshine really

helps too. That's why I moved.

 

In the Spirit of Supreme Love,

 

Simon Fentress

 

 

Sue Aberle [sue]

Monday, May 10, 2004 11:38 AM

RawSeattle

RE: [RawSeattle] disturbing interview

 

Hi, Shari -

 

Re. the vitamin B-12 - that is an identified deficiency problem in both

cooked and raw vegans who are not taking supplements. As this person

mentioned, Dr. Gabriel Cousens now does recommend regular B-12

supplementation for vegans because of that concern. I have long

advocated

B-12 supplements as a prevention to avoid the neurological damage (which

is

irreversible, by the way) that comes with long-term deficiency.

 

Re. the baby that died (and family) in Florida - I knew that some folks

would hold that up as an example of how " dangerous " the raw vegan diet

is.

In reality, that baby was not being breast-fed, and I would expect that

the

older children also were not breast-fed, especially given their close

ages,

since breast feeding promotes natural family spacing. Breast milk is

the

original, ultimate living, raw food for a growing infant, toddler, and

preschooler (yes). If a child is being raised raw, they really must be

breast fed beyond the mainstream recommendation of 1 year, to provide

the

nutrition that is so vital during that age. It is true that it would be

difficult for a growing child to derive adequate nutrition from a diet

composed exclusively of the foods that you and I can do fine on.

Therefore

the breast milk must continue to be provided, maybe until the child is

4-5

years of age. This is done in other cultures and nobody thinks twice

about

it.

 

Without knowing exactly what these people (who died) were eating, it's

impossible to assess what might have gone wrong. There are some people

who

think that we can become " breatharians " and avoid eating altogether.

It's

also possible that, as suspected among mainstream professionals, that

the

raw diet, along with the practices of colon cleansing, etc., can become

a

great cover for a person who may have a serious eating disorder. While

not

everybody who is raw has an eating disorder, I suspect that there are

some

who do, and by eating very little food one could indeed " waste away to

nothing " , at which point the body is feeding on vital lean muscle,

including

the heart. If a person in addition was practicing bulimia and/or

frequent

colon cleanses (which would replace the laxative use that is more

typical

among bulimics) one could deplete their electrolytes, which can also be

fatal to the heart. (The leader of the Eugene group could actually be

sued

for practicing medicine without a license in the mentioned

situation...whenever anybody has chest pains, or any other major medical

symptoms, it would not be a good idea to say " oh, it's only detox " . No,

if

you have major medical symptoms, you call 911.)

 

As in any eating practice, there is the potential for misuse and

less-than-ideal intake. (As well as excessive intake...I still can't

lose

that last 20 pounds, even after 3 years raw!) Among the omnivorous

diets,

especially the junk food & fast food eaters, nutritional deficiencies

and

other malnutrition manifest themselves over a longer period of time, so

a

person doesn't look or feel sick. In a nation of growing obesity, the

overweight person becomes more normal-looking. Even with the cooked

vegan

diet, there is still potential for a less-ideal intake that still will

not

manifest itself, because of the ready availability of vegan alternative

products, such as chips, pop, cookies, bread, etc. I think that the raw

vegan diet has less room for mistakes than any of these others, and thus

may

seem to be less forgiving, so to speak, if a person becomes too

restrictive

and limited over time.

 

Re. the use of animal products: I do have to think that there was a

reason

why so many cultures did end up using animal products, and that was

likely

for sheer survival. I grew up on raw cows milk, but most cultures turn

their milk into a fermented product like cheese or yogurt because they

do

not tolerate the straight milk. Also, historically, most cultures did

include animal flesh, but it was not all the time, because there was a

lot

of work involved in catching an animal, and they weren't always

successful.

When they caught a large animal, the entire village feasted on that one

animal until it was gone. On our farm in Oregon we raised our own meat

(pork, chicken, turkey, and we traded pork to my sister for the

grass-fed

beef that they raise), I have to think that was much better than the

factory-farmed stuff in the stores.

 

I also would like to hear names of those raw vegan speakers who were

caught

eating cooked food in the airport after their speaking engagement!!

That

would be like catching Robert Cohen at a Baskin-Robbins!! Whoever these

people are should be excluded from speaking at raw festivals, because

those

who are new to the movement are looking to them as examples of how

healthy

the lifestyle is. If there are problems, we need to know. Sometimes I

think a nice vegetable curry with brown basmati rice, lentil dahl, and

chapatti would taste good, and I want to make sure that it's worthwhile

to

continue to avoid these foods! Articles like this certainly can cast

doubt

among our movement.

 

Those are my thoughts -

 

Sue

 

 

Shari Viger [shavig]

Monday, May 10, 2004 7:16 AM

Undisclosed-Recipient:;

[RawSeattle] disturbing interview

 

http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/interview-nazariah.html

 

What's your take on this? Anyone? I really like Nazariah so this makes

me

very confused!

 

Comments, please.

 

Shari

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nazariah:

" What we know, based on that article, the research published in the

American Vegan that I cited, is that vegans die more of degenerative

brain diseases. "

 

Can anyone give me a citation for the research this refers to?

Many thanks,

Karen

[Guest guest]

re: raw leaders not walking the talk

 

You know, I'd hate to be a raw leader at the next big raw gathering.

With all these allegations being tossed around the net and discussed

all over, the first time one of them slips out to McDonalds for a

burger, there'll be lenses from suspicious would-be followers

sprouting from every plastic plant. And when the photos are splashed

across the net, caught in the act, the excuse will be, " Yes, I admit,

I did buy that burger. But I wasn't eating it, I only inhaled! "

 

Karen

[Guest guest]

Yes, farm kids look great, everybody can admit. And those farm kids which are

not 100 % raw vegans look even greater :-)

 

 

simon fentress <simony777 wrote:I'm here in beautiful Florida, and

I have gone out to the Kwatamani

families farm many times. The High Priest has been raw for 35 years and

has children born and raised raw for 30 years. All the children look

great, and healthy, some even strong and stocky. Here is some food for

thought.

 

The Kwatamani live without supplements and live a natural farming and

eating from the earth. I feel that a lot of people just don't have

enough experience about raw food or raising raw children. I have always

gotten the answers for raising children or any other dietary concern

answered by the High Priest Kwatamani.

 

I feel that living somewhere where there is a lot of sunshine really

helps too. That's why I moved.

 

In the Spirit of Supreme Love,

 

Simon Fentress

 

 

Sue Aberle [sue]

Monday, May 10, 2004 11:38 AM

RawSeattle

RE: [RawSeattle] disturbing interview

 

Hi, Shari -

 

Re. the vitamin B-12 - that is an identified deficiency problem in both

cooked and raw vegans who are not taking supplements. As this person

mentioned, Dr. Gabriel Cousens now does recommend regular B-12

supplementation for vegans because of that concern. I have long

advocated

B-12 supplements as a prevention to avoid the neurological damage (which

is

irreversible, by the way) that comes with long-term deficiency.

 

Re. the baby that died (and family) in Florida - I knew that some folks

would hold that up as an example of how " dangerous " the raw vegan diet

is.

In reality, that baby was not being breast-fed, and I would expect that

the

older children also were not breast-fed, especially given their close

ages,

since breast feeding promotes natural family spacing. Breast milk is

the

original, ultimate living, raw food for a growing infant, toddler, and

preschooler (yes). If a child is being raised raw, they really must be

breast fed beyond the mainstream recommendation of 1 year, to provide

the

nutrition that is so vital during that age. It is true that it would be

difficult for a growing child to derive adequate nutrition from a diet

composed exclusively of the foods that you and I can do fine on.

Therefore

the breast milk must continue to be provided, maybe until the child is

4-5

years of age. This is done in other cultures and nobody thinks twice

about

it.

 

Without knowing exactly what these people (who died) were eating, it's

impossible to assess what might have gone wrong. There are some people

who

think that we can become " breatharians " and avoid eating altogether.

It's

also possible that, as suspected among mainstream professionals, that

the

raw diet, along with the practices of colon cleansing, etc., can become

a

great cover for a person who may have a serious eating disorder. While

not

everybody who is raw has an eating disorder, I suspect that there are

some

who do, and by eating very little food one could indeed " waste away to

nothing " , at which point the body is feeding on vital lean muscle,

including

the heart. If a person in addition was practicing bulimia and/or

frequent

colon cleanses (which would replace the laxative use that is more

typical

among bulimics) one could deplete their electrolytes, which can also be

fatal to the heart. (The leader of the Eugene group could actually be

sued

for practicing medicine without a license in the mentioned

situation...whenever anybody has chest pains, or any other major medical

symptoms, it would not be a good idea to say " oh, it's only detox " . No,

if

you have major medical symptoms, you call 911.)

 

As in any eating practice, there is the potential for misuse and

less-than-ideal intake. (As well as excessive intake...I still can't

lose

that last 20 pounds, even after 3 years raw!) Among the omnivorous

diets,

especially the junk food & fast food eaters, nutritional deficiencies

and

other malnutrition manifest themselves over a longer period of time, so

a

person doesn't look or feel sick. In a nation of growing obesity, the

overweight person becomes more normal-looking. Even with the cooked

vegan

diet, there is still potential for a less-ideal intake that still will

not

manifest itself, because of the ready availability of vegan alternative

products, such as chips, pop, cookies, bread, etc. I think that the raw

vegan diet has less room for mistakes than any of these others, and thus

may

seem to be less forgiving, so to speak, if a person becomes too

restrictive

and limited over time.

 

Re. the use of animal products: I do have to think that there was a

reason

why so many cultures did end up using animal products, and that was

likely

for sheer survival. I grew up on raw cows milk, but most cultures turn

their milk into a fermented product like cheese or yogurt because they

do

not tolerate the straight milk. Also, historically, most cultures did

include animal flesh, but it was not all the time, because there was a

lot

of work involved in catching an animal, and they weren't always

successful.

When they caught a large animal, the entire village feasted on that one

animal until it was gone. On our farm in Oregon we raised our own meat

(pork, chicken, turkey, and we traded pork to my sister for the

grass-fed

beef that they raise), I have to think that was much better than the

factory-farmed stuff in the stores.

 

I also would like to hear names of those raw vegan speakers who were

caught

eating cooked food in the airport after their speaking engagement!!

That

would be like catching Robert Cohen at a Baskin-Robbins!! Whoever these

people are should be excluded from speaking at raw festivals, because

those

who are new to the movement are looking to them as examples of how

healthy

the lifestyle is. If there are problems, we need to know. Sometimes I

think a nice vegetable curry with brown basmati rice, lentil dahl, and

chapatti would taste good, and I want to make sure that it's worthwhile

to

continue to avoid these foods! Articles like this certainly can cast

doubt

among our movement.

 

Those are my thoughts -

 

Sue

 

 

Shari Viger [shavig]

Monday, May 10, 2004 7:16 AM

Undisclosed-Recipient:;

[RawSeattle] disturbing interview

 

http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/interview-nazariah.html

 

What's your take on this? Anyone? I really like Nazariah so this makes

me

very confused!

 

Comments, please.

 

Shari

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nora,

 

I'm disappointed in Frederic for giving this person a forum from which to plant

seeds of doubt

in the minds of people who are struggling to discern truth from BS. This

article is so full

of the latter (including the nonsensical, undying B-12 concern), I couldn't even

begin to have

time to elucidate all the errors in its conclusions.

 

Many people have had problems on a raw vegan diet which have been resolved by

taking B-12, so I don't understand why you call the concern " nonsensical. "

 

Overall, I thought the interview raised some really good points, especially the

one about the lack of old raw vegans. Does anybody know of any?

 

Mark

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

For some reason the different font I used for my comments did not appear when my

post made it to the list. For the record, the first paragraph below is Nora's,

and the rest of the post are my words. Mark

 

Nora's words:

I'm disappointed in Frederic for giving this person a forum from which to plant

seeds of doubt

in the minds of people who are struggling to discern truth from BS. This

article is so full

of the latter (including the nonsensical, undying B-12 concern), I couldn't even

begin to have

time to elucidate all the errors in its conclusions.

 

Mark's words:

Many people have had problems on a raw vegan diet which have been resolved by

taking B-12, so I don't understand why you call the concern " nonsensical. "

 

Overall, I thought the interview raised some really good points, especially the

one about the lack of old raw vegans. Does anybody know of any?

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nora, you have the zeal of a reformed smoker, or a fundamental

Christian: " My way is the only way. " Your closed-mindedness is

astounding. And since when does 3-1/2 years constitute " long-term " ? It

takes a lot longer than that for problems to surface, if indeed they're

going to.

 

I have what the allopathics have labelled multiple sclerosis. I've been

doing ALL the right things and have been 100% raw, eating all the right

foods in the right combinations, since Christmas. In that time my

dis-ease has gotten worse instead of better. I will be patient a little

longer as I become unable to walk, because I've found folks who've

reversed their symptoms on raw. However, I respect people who can read

the writing on the wall and make changes, in spite of dogma such as

yours, when one path doesn't work for them. Please accept that one size

does not fit all.

 

Martha

[Guest guest]

Hi Martha,

It's not *my* way, first of all. I didn't invent it, nature did. I just

trust that nature did a good job of figuring everything out for us, even if

it sometimes takes a bit of a struggle to find our way back to her.

 

I'm sure you are feeling disappointed and disheartened because you are still

suffering in spite of all the sacrifices you've been making to get well.

This is a very common feeling among new raw fooders, whether they're sick or

not. The rewards don't seem to equal the sacrifices. It might help you to

consider that chronic disease takes decades to form, and that in those

decades tissues and organs sometimes become irretrievably damaged. It's

true that most degenerative disease is reversible if the causes are removed,

but nature makes no guarantees. There is one fact which you may be

absolutely certain of: removing the cause of your disease will not make it

worse. If you're feeling worse now than before you went raw, there are any

number of other explanations besides one that defies the universal law of

cause and effect.

 

I sincerely hope things start looking up for you soon so that you'll be

encouraged to stay raw.

 

Best wishes,

Nora

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Martha Burton wrote:

 

> Nora, you have the zeal of a reformed smoker, or a fundamental

> Christian: " My way is the only way. " Your closed-mindedness is

> astounding. And since when does 3-1/2 years constitute " long-term " ? It

> takes a lot longer than that for problems to surface, if indeed they're

> going to.

>

> I have what the allopathics have labelled multiple sclerosis. I've been

> doing ALL the right things and have been 100% raw, eating all the right

> foods in the right combinations, since Christmas. In that time my

> dis-ease has gotten worse instead of better. I will be patient a little

> longer as I become unable to walk, because I've found folks who've

> reversed their symptoms on raw. However, I respect people who can read

> the writing on the wall and make changes, in spite of dogma such as

> yours, when one path doesn't work for them. Please accept that one size

> does not fit all.

>

> Martha

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Martha,

 

Thanks you for your post. Nora is very knowledgeable on the raw food

diet and natural hygiene. She recognized problems with the article

and addressed them. One basic idea is that the human body digests

food best when foods are consumed, not in " combination " , but by

themselves, per meal, such as a meal of peaches or a meal of romaine

lettuce. Even some people on 100% raw food diets for many years are

not eating " ideal " diets and may recognize that fact. I am eating

100% raw and recognize my diet is not ideal. If I were to be found to

have deficiencies, I would not attribute them to the " good " things

I've done (eating raw), but rather to the bad things I have done

(mixing foods, too many nuts and seeds, using salt, etc.) I have

noticed the benefits of being on a raw diet. I have also noticed the

problems associated with the mixing of foods, too much concentrated

fats, too much concentrated proteins, using salt, etc. So, even those

who are " raw " may be committing cardinal sins, according to some

theories. Base on my own experiences, I am heading in the right

direction and certainly have no interest in going back to cooked or

using meats and dairy.

 

Regarding the comments in the interview. I first heard this

" supposed " fast food eating by raw food gurus at the raw festival

several years ago. I did not like hearing it spoken at the event and

in the way it was presented, similar to the interview. It made it

sound rampant, though I have heard of this issue from only one

source. No names were offered and no opportunity was offered for

those people to defend themselves. It seemed too easy to say things

about " leaders " with no references. One thing I've learned is to take

information offered in such a way with a grain of salt. I would like

to know what was purchased, what was consumed, etc. and have the

opportunity to ask those " violators " . I have actually sat in

restaurants eating my raw foods with others. Some of the foods I eat

may actually appear like cooked foods. There are many possibilities.

Since there is NO opportunity for anyone to defend themselves, I take

the whole article with a grain of salt. It may be that those teachers

were actually eating cooked foods. I don't know. I do know that if

they did eat such foods, they may have been weak at that moment,

having cravings, etc., and still know that raw is the way to go. Just

because someone backslides, it does not mean that raw is not the way

to go. However, if those people are telling people they are 100% raw

foodists and eat cooked food, then that is wrong!

 

When this discussion came up a few months ago (or so) I had similar

thoughts to Nora. If someone was so unhealthy, then WHAT were they

eating, and HOW were they eating it? Combining foods, especially with

bad combinations, too much of certain foods, etc. and lack of

exercise, can contribute to health problems. We just do not have

enough information to draw a rational conclusion (at least I don't).

 

Regarding our " family lines " not including vegans. That may (or may

not) be true. We do not have records of complete diets to know what

kind of diets all our ancestors consumed. Before we had weapons for

killing animals and before we discovered fire (and later " cooking " )

how much plant-based food did we eat? It seems obvious to me, we

would only have eaten what we could catch by hand and eat raw. Mice

and insects do not seem too appetizing to me, but back then who knows!

 

Regarding B12 (and Nora and others likely have more information on

this) I've learned from my readings that vegans do recycle their B12

far more efficiently than do those on a meat and dairy diet. I also

understand that the tests for deficiencies may not be accurate. So,

for me, this issue is still unresolved. I suspect since most of us

are eating store-bought, rinsed (and rinsed) fruits and veggies, what

B12 may have once been on the surfaces, is now likely gone, so that

is another source missing from my diet, that would be present in

nature.

 

Regarding the anti-cancer properties: The testing was for specific

properties found in " food " . The test he described did not test which

diet fared better " against " cancer. Many of us understand that there

are specific " nutrients " that increase after cooking. That does not

mean the food is better for us. I have not heard or read of a study

on a raw diet vs. a cooked diet in relation to it's effect on cancer.

That would be far more revealing that the comments in the article.

Yes, certain ingredients may increase from cooking (so what?). So

many more nutrients and enzymes are wiped out by the same process.

Our bodies still react to the cooked food, regardless of the

increased " anti-cancer properties. " It's called digestive

leukocytosis. Our white blood cells rise after ingestion of cooked

food.

 

Ron mentioned Genesis. It also did not say " cooked " , as in cooked

food shall be ours for meat! Nature offers us raw, the early

scriptures did not say we had to cook it first!

 

Ultimately, as already suggested, we need to listen to our own

intuition and our own bodies. There are many nutritionists in this

world with varied opinions on what is best for the diet. Lets listen

to the opinions, search for the truth for ourselves, and listen to

our bodies and recognize what our bodies need and what makes them the

healthiest.

 

Jeff

 

 

 

>Nora, you have the zeal of a reformed smoker, or a fundamental

>Christian: " My way is the only way. " Your closed-mindedness is

>astounding. And since when does 3-1/2 years constitute " long-term " ? It

>takes a lot longer than that for problems to surface, if indeed they're

>going to.

>

>I have what the allopathics have labelled multiple sclerosis. I've been

>doing ALL the right things and have been 100% raw, eating all the right

>foods in the right combinations, since Christmas. In that time my

>dis-ease has gotten worse instead of better. I will be patient a little

>longer as I become unable to walk, because I've found folks who've

>`reversed their symptoms on raw. However, I respect people who can read

>the writing on the wall and make changes, in spite of dogma such as

>yours, when one path doesn't work for them. Please accept that one size

>does not fit all.

>

>Martha

 

 

[Guest guest]

Martha,

Zeal doesn't make a person wrong. Criticism doesn't make them right. Experts

are only experts at what they have experienced. I don't believe Nora made any

claims about miracle MS recoveries. If that's what you're looking for keep

looking until you find the person who has had that experience.

 

OK. I'll shut up now.

 

Nickolas Hein

Morgantown WV

-

Martha Burton

RawSeattle

Monday, May 10, 2004 8:45 PM

Re: [RawSeattle] disturbing interview

 

 

Nora, you have the zeal of a reformed smoker, or a fundamental

Christian: " My way is the only way. " Your closed-mindedness is

astounding. And since when does 3-1/2 years constitute " long-term " ? It

takes a lot longer than that for problems to surface, if indeed they're

going to.

 

I have what the allopathics have labelled multiple sclerosis. I've been

doing ALL the right things and have been 100% raw, eating all the right

foods in the right combinations, since Christmas. In that time my

dis-ease has gotten worse instead of better. I will be patient a little

longer as I become unable to walk, because I've found folks who've

reversed their symptoms on raw. However, I respect people who can read

the writing on the wall and make changes, in spite of dogma such as

yours, when one path doesn't work for them. Please accept that one size

does not fit all.

 

Martha

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

American Vegan does put out a newsletter, so he must of been

referring to that. They have a web site at

http://www.americanvegan.org/membership.htm which lists their address

and phone number, but no e-mail address.

 

RawSeattle , " rho_sat " <rho_sat> wrote:

> Nazariah:

> " What we know, based on that article, the research published in the

> American Vegan that I cited, is that vegans die more of

degenerative

> brain diseases. "

>

> Can anyone give me a citation for the research this refers to?

> Many thanks,

> Karen

[Guest guest]

Nora, I don't feel as if I'm making sacrifices by eating raw. I'm too

informed to go back to cooked. Patience is the key word here--it took

awhile to get here and it will take awhile to heal. My biggest concern

is remaining independent during the process.

 

Martha

[Guest guest]

Have you read or heard anything by Dr. Lorraine Day? She was diagnosed with

breast cancer. So she went raw and allowed her body to heal itself which it did

in 18 months. Part of her cure was a lot of bed rest. You sound very motivated

and focused - Good luck with your wellness endeavors.

 

Martha Burton <mburtonakod wrote:Nora, I don't feel as if I'm

making sacrifices by eating raw. I'm too

informed to go back to cooked. Patience is the key word here--it took

awhile to get here and it will take awhile to heal. My biggest concern

is remaining independent during the process.

 

Martha

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Laura <ellej9

May 11, 2004 8:48 AM

RawSeattle

Re: [RawSeattle] disturbing interview

 

<html><body>

 

 

<tt>

Have you read or heard anything by Dr. Lorraine Day? & nbsp; She was diagnosed

with breast cancer. So she went raw and allowed her body to heal itself which it

did in 18 months. & nbsp; Part of her cure was a lot of bed rest. & nbsp; You sound

very motivated and focused - Good luck with your wellness endeavors. & nbsp; & nbsp;

<BR>

<BR>

Yes, I've read about Dr. Day and have recommended her book to friends with

cancer. Given that I'm single and must work a full-time job, 18 months of

bedrest is not an option. I do listen to my body and rest when I need to. Others

have reversed MS symptoms through only diet, without fasting or bedrest--it'll

just take a little longer.

 

Martha

[Guest guest]

And have you read or heard anything by Louise Hay? She had cancer some of her

woman’s organs, and she was eating boiled asparagus for several month, also

resting and meditating. Within six months, she was completely healed of cancer.

 

Laura <ellej9 wrote:Have you read or heard anything by Dr. Lorraine

Day? She was diagnosed with breast cancer. So she went raw and allowed her body

to heal itself which it did in 18 months. Part of her cure was a lot of bed

rest. You sound very motivated and focused - Good luck with your wellness

endeavors.

 

Martha Burton <mburtonakod wrote:Nora, I don't feel as if I'm

making sacrifices by eating raw. I'm too

informed to go back to cooked. Patience is the key word here--it took

awhile to get here and it will take awhile to heal. My biggest concern

is remaining independent during the process.

 

Martha

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

hi everyone...

thanks shari for posting this article

the more i read about others experiences the more i realize eating vegan

is pushing the limits

 

i feel a main issue with failures with the vegan diet is the low quality

of our produce along with living out of our natural habitat, pollution,

etc.

animal products are below standards also but they are more nutritionally

dense than plant foods

 

sue wrote;

>I grew up on raw cows milk, but most cultures turn

their milk into a fermented product like cheese or yogurt because they

do

not tolerate the straight milk.

 

i thot the original reason people cultured their milk was a way of

dealing with excess in periods of ''plenty'' and also as a way of

keeping it for when the cow wasn't lactating

 

i milked a cow for three years and we cultured our milk as a way of

keeping it cuz we didn't have electricity for refrigeration

we made kefir, yoghurt, cottage cheese (curds and whey) and hard cheese

we also drank alot of the milk fresh ( excuse me while i blow my

nose.....)

 

 

> I also would like to hear names of those raw vegan speakers who were

caught

eating cooked food in the airport after their speaking engagement!!

 

dr bass also makes some similar statements in one of his articles

makes me wonder if there's a bit of plagiarism or copy-cat going on here

 

 

personally...

i think the paleo's are onto something as far as personal health goes

but i've always kinda like to test the waters and look at the big

picture...

 

i've lived in the ''woods'' for a big portion of my life and i've

watched the animals ''eat''

and i've thot about how and what would i eat if i used only my body to

harvest and process my food like the other creatures do

 

i'm sure no mother animal is gonna let me suckle her

i could steal an egg from a bird nest or pry a mollusk off a rock or

catch an insect here and there

maybe even a fish or two (preparing them to eat would be interesting)

but there's not many animals you can catch and eat with your bare hands

 

norm  )~

 

......  raw food, simply wonderful  .....

[Guest guest]

Dear Fellow Truth Seekers,

 

We are a sum total of what we consume for our mind, body and spirit.

Also it takes 7 years to regenerate a cell. People who have problems eat

raw food and expect to solve their health issues overnight. Consider

this, what were our parents eating when they made us. Was their a

possibility it wasn't the most perfect food source. How about ones

consumption for the last seven years..what about before that?

 

To eat raw and living foods is only a small part of life as people are

expressing their beliefs and faiths and science one must remember eating

is not a whole life experience.

 

We need sunshine, living food and Tender Loving Care, and without one

part of that formula we are going to have serious problems. It has

become very easy for people to focus on a single vitamin instead of

their whole life essence.

 

What we put in is what comes out of us, and what we put out comes back

to us. Misery aches and pains can manifest with many different names. We

are a sum total of all that we consume.

 

By the way if you do searches on the Kemet people, you will find that

indeed the first people on the planet did live on raw and living fruits,

vegetables, nuts, and seeds. The first chapter of Genesis was taken from

ancient Kemet texts. The High Priest Kwatamani is a historian and has

outlined all of this in his books with references

http://www.livefoodsunchild.com/ But if you don't believe it do some

searches on the web and in books.

 

Mystics from around the world have eaten only raw food, but they also

followed a whole, mind body spirit experience.

 

In the Spirit of Supreme Love,

 

Simon Fentress

 

 

 

 

Nick [nick.hein]

Monday, May 10, 2004 11:42 PM

RawSeattle

Re: [RawSeattle] disturbing interview

 

Martha,

Zeal doesn't make a person wrong. Criticism doesn't make them right.

Experts are only experts at what they have experienced. I don't believe

Nora made any claims about miracle MS recoveries. If that's what you're

looking for keep looking until you find the person who has had that

experience.

 

OK. I'll shut up now.

 

Nickolas Hein

Morgantown WV

-

Martha Burton

RawSeattle

Monday, May 10, 2004 8:45 PM

Re: [RawSeattle] disturbing interview

 

 

Nora, you have the zeal of a reformed smoker, or a fundamental

Christian: " My way is the only way. " Your closed-mindedness is

astounding. And since when does 3-1/2 years constitute " long-term " ? It

 

takes a lot longer than that for problems to surface, if indeed

they're

going to.

 

I have what the allopathics have labelled multiple sclerosis. I've

been

doing ALL the right things and have been 100% raw, eating all the

right

foods in the right combinations, since Christmas. In that time my

dis-ease has gotten worse instead of better. I will be patient a

little

longer as I become unable to walk, because I've found folks who've

reversed their symptoms on raw. However, I respect people who can read

 

the writing on the wall and make changes, in spite of dogma such as

yours, when one path doesn't work for them. Please accept that one

size

does not fit all.

 

Martha

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Norm -

 

I haven't had time to follow all the feedback - but your comment re.

fermenting the dairy products to keep them without refrigeration likely is

also true. So it becomes a question of which came first - the fermentation

to keep them palatable and safe to eat over time, or the intolerance to the

nonprocessed product, or did they co-evolve? Kind of like the proverbial

chicken-and-egg question, right? The anthropology of food practices is

quite an interesting topic. I have a book from the British Museum on this

subject, but I haven't gotten very far in reading it. Maybe next

winter...that's my best reading time, I just can't have too much other

competition for my time!

 

There are a multitude of possible factors involved in keeping raw fooders

healthy, as you mentioned, including access to fresh (unpolluted) air and

water, regular physical exercise, fresh and flavorful organic produce,

minimal stress, etc. The press never gives this background information, as

in the example of the baby in Florida who died, they just said that the

family was following a raw vegan diet, but never once did they say that the

baby died because she wasn't being breastfed, nor that the older children

were also emaciated because they too were deprived of this vital nutritional

substance. (Nobody wants to hear that.) Every negative report gets

magnified and held up in the mainstream press as a reason to not eat this

way.

 

One has to speculate if there is an organized campaign of some kind to

discourage healthy eating. In the past, innocuous-sounding groups have been

organized by major industry groups to try to discredit the environmental and

vegetarian movements, by articles and publications just like these. It

takes detective work by someone who has more time than I do to uncover the

true identity of the groups and to expose them for what they really are - a

front for a polluting or otherwise environment and health unfriendly

industry. Anybody up to this task?

OK, folks, this is a great discussion! It's good to read as many comments

as I have time to get to!

Sue

[Guest guest]

And on that note,

 

I enter the conversation. I don't know where to begin so bear with me as I piece

things together.

 

Somatic resourcing is just another type of therepy I happened to invest in 2

years ago. The body is a very complex organism. The amount of cellular

information we carry with us is incomprehendable.This memory ranges from what

Drunvalo Melchizedek Understands as being " The Ancient Secret of the Flower of

Life " which I will touch on briefly later, to what you ate five minutes ago. The

therepy deals with memories that are stuck in the body, memories that haven't

had a chance to work themselves out, repressed memories. The patient is

facilitated in allowing the body " resource " that information. When I began to

see a difference in my life as a result of this training I realized the deapth

of work I have in front of me. The work is a lifetime thing. Every moment of

every day I am confronted with new experiences that will require patience with

my body, allowing it to guide " me " .

 

The way I choose to deal with repression is to eat. When I was on cooked foods

it shut my body up, briefly, so that I could " cope " . Now that I've been eating

raw foods when I eat my body can deal with what I'm injesting, and so you can

imagine how empowering this has been. My mind can no longer disable my body. My

body's voice is growing from within and reveiling to me how misleading the

compulsary mind is.

 

So, what happens as the Body begins to communicate ? If it released everything

at once, we would die immediately. I am convinced of this given my experiences

in session.

What if justice for every form of repression bestowed upon the collective us by

all forms of government happenened in an instant? Not justice in the cognative

sense of the word .

This is where I introduce Melchizedek. In his book " The Ancient Secret of The

Flower of Life " he describes the fall of our collective exsistance from a higher

level of conciousness. The injustices we experience today are a result of this

fall, thus the injustices we commit on our bodies a result of our lack of

alignment with this conciousness. Our bodies remember this ancient wisdom. Read

the Book, or at least the first ten pages. (what I've writen here is what I've

infered from Melchizedek's book, and his truths I have illuded to) . Emotion is

a physical response to an experience. E Motion. Energy in Motion. Are you making

the same connection? I think we'd all die immediately( like all the sea's tides

shifting) or we'd all start levitating. However, as of yet that hasn't happened,

so we have the luxury of taking our time. A lifetime to re-align. A lifetime

embodied.

I believe eating raw food is extremely effective in getting the ball rolling.

Maybe too fast for some individuals. I can't imagine going back at this point. I

can't imagine choosing to even eat a little bit of raw cheese, because I'm still

learning from this experience, and I'm excited about it. What we choose for

ourselves is very personal. David Wolfe has zeal, So does the guy who did that

interview. They may not agree, but thats the difference between their

experiences as it should be, they are different human beings. Raw Seattle is

about comradery in this effort we share. Some of those e-mails got really ugly.

I'm sure a good deal of you are scared. It's great to have concerns, so we can

discuss how to remedy them.

 

As for regeneration of the nervous system , I'd like to see how a bit of breathe

work, somatic therepy, and Tch Kung would change the tune. Maybe try B 12

suppliment. If you are afriad of how steep the hill is, eat some raw cheese, but

I'm rolling and feeling great.If a 90 year old tch kung master can throw me

across a room with a slight move , I'm sure I can remedy this fatigue, (which I

wouldn't know about If I was ignoring my body by eating cooked food, pumped up

on caffine( I work two jobs)). Have some imagination, stay open.

 

Lastly I would like to thank Simon,

You RAWK!!!!!

 

Your Comerade, CLAY

[Guest guest]

I think that Storm, who has been raw 20+ years, is another terrific

example. (http://www.thegardendiet.com) I, frankly, am disappointed

and a little disturbed by Frederic's and Nazariah's now advocating

eating meat. They seem to be very good a disseminating their views.

 

Annette

 

 

 

RawSeattle , Nora Lenz <nmlenz@s...> wrote:

 

The same goes for Robert Rust (15 years), Joyce Divic (7 years, I

believe), Eric Farris (3 1/2 years), and myself (3 1/2 years). We

really ARE healthy, we're not faking it.

[Guest guest]

What about Fred Bisci? Isn't he in his 70s? It seems there was

another older gentleman interviewed in Paul Nison's book ....

 

Annette

 

 

RawSeattle , " Mark Hovila " <hovila@c...> wrote:

 

> Overall, I thought the interview raised some really good points,

especially the one about the lack of old raw vegans. Does anybody

know of any?

>

> Mark