Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 The less animal abusers there are'the less animals suffer I only care about the safety of the deliberately abused animals >many animal rights vegans share my view .I'm surprised you don't. - " Amanda Schumm " <aelzemos <vegan-network > Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:44 PM Re: Re: Drugs and acid > -- In vegan-network, " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote: > >> Drug taking could bring about the loss of a good vegan.I wouldn't > >care if > >> you were an animal abuser > > > > I'm sorry, I find that a decidedly *un-vegan* response. In other words, > it's okay if drugs kill a non-vegan, but not a vegan. > > I support *intelligent* and *responsible* recreational drug use. If it > weren't for some of this recreational use, I would never have conquered some > major emotional issues that have plagued me for a long, long time and have > affected my life in so many negative ways for so long. I am a different > person because I've had the opportunity to experience this and it's allowed > me to open up and look at parts of myself that I was never able to look at > before. Do I use hard drugs every day, every week, even every month? No. > Every 2-3 months, and even that's rare most of the time. Do I think someone > else should be able to regulate my choice to use these drugs when I've > handled it quite responsibly on my own? Not at all. Do I think there > should be restrictions, as there are on alcohol and tobacco? Certainly. > But I do *not* agree with someone telling me what I can and can put into my > body. Period. > > Amanda > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 Of course you can do what you like with your body and people with certain conditions may use them to relieve symptoms.I'm talking about purely for recreational use>If you are given a good body and manypeople are not so lucky I think you should protect it.For me that means no unnecessary drugs. - " Amanda Schumm " <aelzemos <vegan-network > Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:44 PM Re: Re: Drugs and acid > -- In vegan-network, " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote: > >> Drug taking could bring about the loss of a good vegan.I wouldn't > >care if > >> you were an animal abuser > > > > I'm sorry, I find that a decidedly *un-vegan* response. In other words, > it's okay if drugs kill a non-vegan, but not a vegan. > > I support *intelligent* and *responsible* recreational drug use. If it > weren't for some of this recreational use, I would never have conquered some > major emotional issues that have plagued me for a long, long time and have > affected my life in so many negative ways for so long. I am a different > person because I've had the opportunity to experience this and it's allowed > me to open up and look at parts of myself that I was never able to look at > before. Do I use hard drugs every day, every week, even every month? No. > Every 2-3 months, and even that's rare most of the time. Do I think someone > else should be able to regulate my choice to use these drugs when I've > handled it quite responsibly on my own? Not at all. Do I think there > should be restrictions, as there are on alcohol and tobacco? Certainly. > But I do *not* agree with someone telling me what I can and can put into my > body. Period. > > Amanda > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 Her name is spelt Lesley! - " mr big " <pervyempire <vegan-network > Sunday, March 04, 2001 10:27 PM Re: Re: Drugs and acid > > > > > >That's strange, I always thought it was the political left who were > > > >the ones who were more in favour of regulating behaviour for the > > > >greater good and the right were the ones who supported individual > > > >liberty above all, whatever harm to others it causes. > > > > > > I always thought the left was progressive. And what makes you think > >that > > > regulation and prohibition are for the greater good anyway? > > > > >If they save lives they are for the greater good. > ............................................................ > IF? Leslie...PLEASE listen...IF IF...where is the evidence that they do or > ever have????? And I mean REAL evidence...not propaganda. > ............................................................ > > >No, you think you live in a perfect world where nothing can hurt you. > >I am the realist here. > >Time to grow up " Little boy " . > > Leslie my friend, if you really want to reduce SERIOUS debate into petty > insults then how does " fuck off " sound? > > ............................................................. > > > > > > _______________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 I care about *all* living things. Obviously, you don't. Amanda Angie Wright <angiewright vegan-network <vegan-network > Monday, March 05, 2001 1:35 AM Re: Re: Drugs and acid >The less animal abusers there are'the less animals suffer I only care about >the safety of the deliberately abused animals >many animal rights vegans >share my view .I'm surprised you don't. >- > " Amanda Schumm " <aelzemos ><vegan-network > >Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:44 PM >Re: Re: Drugs and acid > > >> -- In vegan-network, " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote: >> >> Drug taking could bring about the loss of a good vegan.I wouldn't >> >care if >> >> you were an animal abuser >> > >> >> I'm sorry, I find that a decidedly *un-vegan* response. In other words, >> it's okay if drugs kill a non-vegan, but not a vegan. >> >> I support *intelligent* and *responsible* recreational drug use. If it >> weren't for some of this recreational use, I would never have conquered >some >> major emotional issues that have plagued me for a long, long time and have >> affected my life in so many negative ways for so long. I am a different >> person because I've had the opportunity to experience this and it's >allowed >> me to open up and look at parts of myself that I was never able to look at >> before. Do I use hard drugs every day, every week, even every month? No. >> Every 2-3 months, and even that's rare most of the time. Do I think >someone >> else should be able to regulate my choice to use these drugs when I've >> handled it quite responsibly on my own? Not at all. Do I think there >> should be restrictions, as there are on alcohol and tobacco? Certainly. >> But I do *not* agree with someone telling me what I can and can put into >my >> body. Period. >> >> Amanda >> >> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 Very mature use of language Mr Big, it doesn't exactly show that I was wrong to tell you it's time to grow up. And what's this crap about " the left " or liberal attitudes to drugs being progressive anyway? In the 60's (I'm too young to remember it myself, being only 5 at the end of the 60's) drugs were considered progressive, but now we know better. The kids in the 60's, the hippies, they were a bunch of wide- eyed innocent kids who didn't know what they were doing to themselves. It was very sad, they were largely good and idealistic, full of love and peace, many even vegetarian, and the drugs wrecked all that wonderful philosophy. But most people who survived had the sense to learn from all the deaths, from the Janis Joplins and the Hendrixes of this world, they learned that drugs killed. Since you have moved on, you have yourself progressed from that stage, as a responsible human being and a parent, so WHY continue to defend that lifestyle? It won't do your kids any favours, better that kids learn from you ADMITTING YOU MADE MISTAKES AND THAT YOU WERE STUPID, AND YOU HOPE THEY WILL HAVE MORE SENSE, than saying it's OK if they want to try it (and possibly DIE in the process)! It's more progressive to be drug-free, especially if one is an activist for veganism/Animal Rights. People can't be much use to a movement if they are out of their heads! I think this is on-topic, because it's about being good ambassadors for the cause, and you can't be if you're pissed or stoned or laughing uncontrollably for 15 hours non-stop, or worse still dead from dehydration, liver failure, or inhaling your own vomit, or insane because of one bad acid trip!! Reality check, you just look like an idiot if you behave that way, even without considering the medical effects. Isn't Danniella Westbrook so cool with her single nostril!? Wow, I really want to be just like HER - NOT! It's dead scary that this woman is a MOTHER too! What a loser. Lesley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 I apologise for flaming, but the drug issue is quite relevant to how best to be good ambassadors for what we are as vegans and what we believe in. Junkies are not good ambassadors for the vegan way of life. Vegans who try to take care of themselves and show compassion for their own health are good ambassadors for veganism. It's all related. Lesley > My Inbox is full of irrelevant flames! > please let's get back to the point. > Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 Next time Charlie, you might not be so lucky. And to advocate that people should try it once is very irresponsible and possibly could be considered by a court of law as incitement to other people to take part in illegal activities. Id be careful what I say if I were you, because you could end up in a lot of trouble. If I heard you in real life saying that to someone I'd probably report you, because you were encouraging them to try LSD! It's all very well to recount your own experience of drugs, but to encourage others to do the same is irresponsible and quite possibly illegal. I'm pretty sure it is under British law, probably under US law too. Lesley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 Another thing, to Charlie, you would have been at risk of dehydration and exhaustion, and possibly a heart attack, if LSD did that to you, it's what happens to some kids who take ecstasy, they dance non-stop, forget to drink and die because they don't know that they are dehydrating and causing their body organs to fail. These drugs severely impair judgement and sensation, so that the person cannot perceive his or her body's normal signals that s/he needs water and rest. I don't quite agree with Angie that knowledge makes people curious about drugs, because for me it's having that knowledge and education, and understanding a lot about the adverse medical effects of drugs, that made me always say no! If people only know how " nice " it was for their friends, they will be curious, unless they are educated with the medical facts. It was scary enough on entonox (gas and air) for the birth of my children, because I was completely talking a load of embarrassing nonsense on it! But I had to have something for the pain, and it's the least strong drug and fastest out of the body, and least likely to harm the baby. The second time I was aware and more able to take control and watch what I said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 The point is we are all different .for me it is the fear of the unknown that keeps me off drugs.I dont need to know about the effects[that might make it seem interesting].I'm not sure whether drugs education in schools is working [-sex education doesn't seem to have done,and.the new tack is " Its ok to say NO " ] ..I too need to be in control so I know what is happening to me .You can be taken advantage of if you are not with it.Using entonox and giggling for no reason frightened me too. Luckily I managed without after that{Home births --easier to distract youself] - " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 <vegan-network > Monday, March 05, 2001 11:31 AM Re: Drugs and acid > > Another thing, to Charlie, you would have been at risk of dehydration > and exhaustion, and possibly a heart attack, if LSD did that to you, > it's what happens to some kids who take ecstasy, they dance non-stop, > forget to drink and die because they don't know that they are > dehydrating and causing their body organs to fail. > These drugs severely impair judgement and sensation, so that the > person cannot perceive his or her body's normal signals that s/he > needs water and rest. > I don't quite agree with Angie that knowledge makes people curious > about drugs, because for me it's having that knowledge and education, > and understanding a lot about the adverse medical effects of drugs, > that made me always say no! > If people only know how " nice " it was for their friends, they will be > curious, unless they are educated with the medical facts. > > It was scary enough on entonox (gas and air) for the birth of my > children, because I was completely talking a load of embarrassing > nonsense on it! But I had to have something for the pain, and it's > the least strong drug and fastest out of the body, and least likely > to harm the baby. > The second time I was aware and more able to take control and watch > what I said. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 vegan-network, " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote: > The point is we are all different .for me it is the fear of the unknown > that keeps me off drugs.I dont need to know about the effects[that might > make it seem interesting].I'm not sure whether drugs education in schools is > working [-sex education doesn't seem to have done,and.the new tack is " Its > ok to say NO " ] > I think I support both ideas, something like, " Just say no, and these are the reasons why " , followed by a list of the terrible things drugs do, the same should be done with sex ed probably. The medical reasons to say no are more compellng than any reason I have heard for saying yes to drugs anyway! > > .I too need to be in control so I know what is happening to me .You can be > taken advantage of if you are not with it.Using entonox and giggling for no > reason frightened me too. Luckily I managed without after that{Home > births --easier to distract youself] > I'm glad your home births worked out well for you. You must just be very good at coping with pain. Mine were failed home births, couldn't get them out naturally, had to be taken to hospital to have the ventouse deliveries because the shape of my pelvis is not quite perfect! So it will be hospital this time but with strict instructions that I do not want a caesarean, because baby will come out the normal way with a little help, we know that already, unless it's very big! I am expecting number 3 in the Autumn (this is our surprise baby, I was only one time not as dliigent as usual on the fertility awareness, I was aware I had slipped up), we only meant to have two, they are 5 and nearly 8. Haven't done a pregnancy test (they contain cow protein and mouse cells - monoclonal antibodies), but I have enough of my normal early pregnancy symptoms to know by now. I just don't believe those women who give birth and say they didn't know they were pregnant, who do they think they are kidding? Lesley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 I dont care about anyone who deliberately harms others unless it is to defend the weak or to protect themselves.If people who eat animals die then less animals suffer .adults know what goes on.children are lied to and are not rsponsible for their own eating habits so I dont include them.You care about fur wearers do you?and fox hunters? - " Amanda Schumm " <aelzemos <vegan-network > Monday, March 05, 2001 10:02 AM Re: Re: Drugs and acid > I care about *all* living things. Obviously, you don't. > > Amanda > > > Angie Wright <angiewright > vegan-network <vegan-network > > Monday, March 05, 2001 1:35 AM > Re: Re: Drugs and acid > > > >The less animal abusers there are'the less animals suffer I only care about > >the safety of the deliberately abused animals >many animal rights vegans > >share my view .I'm surprised you don't. > >- > > " Amanda Schumm " <aelzemos > ><vegan-network > > >Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:44 PM > >Re: Re: Drugs and acid > > > > > >> -- In vegan-network, " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote: > >> >> Drug taking could bring about the loss of a good vegan.I wouldn't > >> >care if > >> >> you were an animal abuser > >> > > >> > >> I'm sorry, I find that a decidedly *un-vegan* response. In other words, > >> it's okay if drugs kill a non-vegan, but not a vegan. > >> > >> I support *intelligent* and *responsible* recreational drug use. If it > >> weren't for some of this recreational use, I would never have conquered > >some > >> major emotional issues that have plagued me for a long, long time and > have > >> affected my life in so many negative ways for so long. I am a different > >> person because I've had the opportunity to experience this and it's > >allowed > >> me to open up and look at parts of myself that I was never able to look > at > >> before. Do I use hard drugs every day, every week, even every month? > No. > >> Every 2-3 months, and even that's rare most of the time. Do I think > >someone > >> else should be able to regulate my choice to use these drugs when I've > >> handled it quite responsibly on my own? Not at all. Do I think there > >> should be restrictions, as there are on alcohol and tobacco? Certainly. > >> But I do *not* agree with someone telling me what I can and can put into > >my > >> body. Period. > >> > >> Amanda > >> > >> > >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 Have you told the Vegan Soc the details of preg.testing kits etc this kind of thing is not generally known.i think it should be mentioned on a regular basis.I only learned a few years ago about condoms not being vegan!My births were uncomfortable but thats all Best of luck When is it due ? - " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 <vegan-network > Monday, March 05, 2001 12:27 PM Re: Drugs and acid > vegan-network, " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote: > > The point is we are all different .for me it is the fear of the > unknown > > that keeps me off drugs.I dont need to know about the effects[that > might > > make it seem interesting].I'm not sure whether drugs education in > schools is > > working [-sex education doesn't seem to have done,and.the new tack > is " Its > > ok to say NO " ] > > > > I think I support both ideas, something like, " Just say no, and these > are the reasons why " , followed by a list of the terrible things drugs > do, the same should be done with sex ed probably. The medical reasons > to say no are more compellng than any reason I have heard for saying > yes to drugs anyway! > > > > > .I too need to be in control so I know what is happening to me .You > can be > > taken advantage of if you are not with it.Using entonox and > giggling for no > > reason frightened me too. Luckily I managed without after that{Home > > births --easier to distract youself] > > > I'm glad your home births worked out well for you. > You must just be very good at coping with pain. Mine were failed home > births, couldn't get them out naturally, had to be taken to hospital > to have the ventouse deliveries because the shape of my pelvis is not > quite perfect! So it will be hospital this time but with strict > instructions that I do not want a caesarean, because baby will come > out the normal way with a little help, we know that already, unless > it's very big! I am expecting number 3 in the Autumn (this is our > surprise baby, I was only one time not as dliigent as usual on the > fertility awareness, I was aware I had slipped up), we only meant to > have two, they are 5 and nearly 8. > Haven't done a pregnancy test (they contain cow protein and mouse > cells - monoclonal antibodies), but I have enough of my normal early > pregnancy symptoms to know by now. > I just don't believe those women who give birth and say they didn't > know they were pregnant, who do they think they are kidding? > > Lesley > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 Most vegans I have met definitely don't care about all living things. I got given absolute hell in vegan/Animal Rights groups I belonged to several years ago, for the terrible " crime against political correctness " of stating my opposition to abortion, and my concern with having consistent reverence for life (I certainly didn't expect all the hostility I received just for being pro-life), so you can't assume anything about vegans as a group (ie that all vegans are concerned about all living things), we are very diverse, but we always have to try extra hard not to lose sight of the things that unite us. Lesley > I care about *all* living things. Obviously, you don't. > > Amanda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 I'm always puzzled by vegans who are pro abortion but tend to keep off the subject.As you say we have to concentrate on being united - " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 <vegan-network > Monday, March 05, 2001 1:38 PM Re: Drugs and acid > > Most vegans I have met definitely don't care about all living things. > I got given absolute hell in vegan/Animal Rights groups I belonged to > several years ago, for the terrible " crime against political > correctness " of stating my opposition to abortion, and my concern > with having consistent reverence for life (I certainly didn't expect > all the hostility I received just for being pro-life), so you can't > assume anything about vegans as a group (ie that all vegans are > concerned about all living things), we are very diverse, but we > always have to try extra hard not to lose sight of the things that > unite us. > > Lesley > > > > I care about *all* living things. Obviously, you don't. > > > > Amanda > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 Let's just say I respect their right to live, and that's about all. I don't respect their right to kill. I have to admit that I personally care more about my fellow vegans and the animals than I do about animal abusers, and that includes Mr Big and other vegans I have had heated arguments with! Lesley > I dont care about anyone who deliberately harms others unless it is to > defend the weak or to protect themselves.If people who eat animals die then > less animals suffer .adults know what goes on.children are lied to and are > not rsponsible for their own eating habits so I dont include them.You care > about fur wearers do you?and fox hunters? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 Poor Mr Big !!! He is a vegan tho' so hes got to be worth more than avivisectionist say!!! - " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 <vegan-network > Monday, March 05, 2001 1:41 PM Re: Drugs and acid > > Let's just say I respect their right to live, and that's about all. > I don't respect their right to kill. > I have to admit that I personally care more about my fellow vegans > and the animals than I do about animal abusers, and that includes Mr > Big and other vegans I have had heated arguments with! > > Lesley > > > > I dont care about anyone who deliberately harms others unless it is > to > > defend the weak or to protect themselves.If people who eat animals > die then > > less animals suffer .adults know what goes on.children are lied to > and are > > not rsponsible for their own eating habits so I dont include > them.You care > > about fur wearers do you?and fox hunters? > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 Yup, I emailed the testimony from the former vivisector to the Vegan Society, and of course to several anti-vivisection organisations, so the word should spread hopefully, if they bother to read their email (the Vegan Society are noticeably quite poor at coping with email) and maybe some will decide that it's worth a mention in their magazine. By my reckoning, the due date will be close to my 37th birthday in late October, or maybe early November. I'm avoiding going to the doctor too early, I've heard they make a big fuss with " older mothers " and to them that's anyone over 35(!), and apparently they try and push all those pre-natal tests which I won't have anyway, unless there is a really good medical reason and it's to help me or the baby. Despite difficult births, which needed medical help, I always feel mostly fine during the actual pregnancy, I never had any high blood pressure or any other hint of pre-eclampsia with the others, and I have started taking folic acid, so I am fairly confident of being able to resist unnecessary medical harassment! They may think I am very awkward and eccentric, when in fact I am saving them a lot of work. Lesley > Have you told the Vegan Soc the details of preg.testing kits etc this kind > of thing is not generally known.i think it should be mentioned on a regular > basis.I only learned a few years ago about condoms not being vegan! My births > were uncomfortable but thats all Best of luck When is it due ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 I have to clarify that I'm usually perfectly happy to be friends with vegans who disagree with me on abortion, it's usually the pro- choicers who are the intolerant ones and want nothing to do with me. I was practically threatened with being kicked out of an animal rights group once because I was pro-life! I had even worse problems when I was in City of London Anti-Apartheid, they kicked David Alton off their list of famous supporters, because of his prominent pro- life stance. I openly opposed this at one of the meetings, obviously I felt there was room for both the pro-lifers and the pro-choicers within an anti-apartheid group, just as there was room for meat- eaters and veg*ns. And how welcome could I feel if they shunned David Alton? They were a pretty intolerant bunch! Well I said to them, sorry if you don't like it but I am allowed to think for myself, and think for myself I will. I find it has a lot to do with the tendency towards pigeonholing and labelling people, this seems to hinder free thought, the idea that if you are of one way of thinking on a certain subject, then you have to think a given way on another subject, etc, which is an idea I have rejected. I have never had any qualms about saying I am feminist as well as pro-life, but many of activists like to put people into little boxes and they think you can't possibly be both, because that's what they have been told by feminist leaders (and quite possibly some pro-life leaders)! But there are feminist pro-life groups in the USA. Another funny thing that happened in another animal rights group (where again I was known as the one who was a bit different), was that after the meeting some of them were talking about some gay issue and I nodded in agreement with whatever was being said, and one of them looked at me and said he was surprised to see that I wasn't homophobic considering my views on abortion! Since when do you have to be anti-gay to be pro-life?? I felt like asking him if he had seen some " pro-lifers rule book " , where this was written down! Scary thing is, this guy was supposedly quite intelligent, but this comment just gave him away as a " pigeonholer " who was unable to truly see people as individuals with their own unique set of views and beliefs. Lesley > I'm always puzzled by vegans who are pro abortion but tend to keep off the > subject.As you say we have to concentrate on being united Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 I don't mean to start a big row on abortion, but I wanted to give my experience of being wrongly judged and labelled within supposedly progressive groups, as a good example of how even progressive people often see certain views automatically going together, and how so many people have trouble seeing that it's not always the same for others, and so others who might agree with them on a certain issue, don't always fit in with their preconceived idea of how people of that particular view think on other issues. You can't predict from a person's views on one issue, anything much else about that person. Oh well I know what I am trying to say! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 5, 2001 > " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 >Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:17:24 -0000 ... >particular view think on other issues. You can't predict from a >person's views on one issue, anything much else about that person. >Oh well I know what I am trying to say! And you've said it well, Lesley. Life might be simpler if it weren't the case. But maybe not so interesting. (Or maybe I mean challenging.) Paul pp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
