Drugs and acid

[Guest guest]

In my humble opinion, anyone who has ever had " acid days " has most likely

already lost the plot far too much to tell anyone else what they have lost!

 

If you are lucky enough to have no long term psychological problems due to

your acid days, you are very lucky. Don't you know that taking that even

just once is the equivalent of playing Russian Roulette with your sanity?

Some people are lucky depending on the circumstances in which they take it,

but others are not so lucky.

 

What's the point of drugs? Why would anyone be so stupid and

self-destructive as to even try something so risky? I swear I have never

understood WHY people would take something as dangerous as acid! Just say

no, and teach your kids the same!

 

Lesley Dove

 

>

> mrbig:

> I had a friend in my acid days who, (in my humble opinion), lost the plot

> and found refuge with the Krishnas. No, I don`t particularly admire their

> ways, my youth in Belfast made me absolutley HATE all dogma, but

> I believe I

> have a good understanding of how people get swept into it.

>

[Guest guest]

If you have never tried it Lesley can you really be an authority?

 

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[Guest guest]

She's probably not tried murder or rape but like me she has the ability to

appreciate the problems involved without actually having to do it I think

it's to do with intelligence

-

" mr big " <pervyempire

<vegan-network >

Sunday, March 04, 2001 1:04 PM

Re: Drugs and acid

 

 

> If you have never tried it Lesley can you really be an authority?

>

> _______________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> She's probably not tried murder or rape but like me she has the

ability to

> appreciate the problems involved without actually having to do it I

think

> it's to do with intelligence

 

I replied to Mr Big before I read your comment, great minds think

alike maybe?

LSD was originally developed as a drug for psychiatric use, and it

might have even had some useful medicinal benefits, in certain

strictly controlled situations, but now it is illegal and can't be

used at all because of fools who don't know what they are doing,

taking it in out-of-control situations, the same goes for cannabis

which has some medicinal effects used properly in certain specific

medical conditions, but thanks to dope-heads, and the reputation they

have given it, by using it without medical need, ie abusing it, to

the point that they addle their brains, lungs and livers, it is

illegal even though it can help some sick people.

 

Lesley

[Guest guest]

Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I feel really

strongly about it, I also apologise if my viewpoint is alarming

to anyone - I am not 'pro drugs', but I do try to keep an open mind

 

>In my humble opinion, anyone who has ever had " acid days " has most likely

>already lost the plot far too much to tell anyone else what they have lost!

 

In the past I have taken various (illegal) psychoactive substances,

including acid.

I do not suffer from flashbacks, anxiety attacks, a 'distorted' sense of

reality,

or any of the psychological problems associated with abuse of hallucinogens.

I am, however, still addicted to nicotine, and still drink once in a while

:-(

I truly regret having ever taken alchohol or nicotine,

but I am very much looking forward to the next time I take mushrooms or

acid.

(which may well be years from now, or even never - please note the lack of

addiction)

 

There is a very clear distinction between

use and *abuse*.

 

>If you are lucky enough to have no long term psychological problems due to

>your acid days, you are very lucky. Don't you know that taking that even

>just once is the equivalent of playing Russian Roulette with your sanity?

>Some people are lucky depending on the circumstances in which they take it,

>but others are not so lucky.

 

No. Some people are ignorant or reckless, others are not so ignorant.

Acid (or any hallucinogen) is a dangerous tool, in exactly the same

way that fire is a dangerous tool. You can light a fire to keep warm,

or you can cover yourself in petrol and play with matches...

 

Sure, I have friends and aquaintances who have 'lost it' due to acid,

but we live in a society with very underdeveloped attitudes to drugs ( " Just

say no " )

Imagine a world where we said " Fire; Just say no! " .

The hospitals would be full to the brim with budding pyromaniacs.

 

>What's the point of drugs?

 

Which drugs? Alchohol? LSD? Caffeine? Heroin? Paracetamol? Prozac?

This lumping of all 'drugs' into a single category is part of the problem!

If you mean hallucinogens specifically, then a good introduction is

'The Doors of Perception' (which deals with mescaline - which I have not

taken).

 

Hallucingens are useful for the tremendous amout that they can teach us

about

our perception of reality, consciousness, our sense of selves and our sense

of

place in the universe.

I am much *better* equipped to deal with what life throws at me for having

done some serious introspection, both under the influence of hallucinogens

and 'straight'.

There are many aspects of my personality of which I am proud, that are

due, at least in part, to previous, managed *use* of hallucinogens.

 

>Why would anyone be so stupid and

>self-destructive as to even try something so risky? I swear I have never

>understood WHY people would take something as dangerous as acid! Just say

>no, and teach your kids the same!

 

If people treat acid as a 'recreational drug', then they are likely going to

get damaged, just like people who play with fire are going to get damaged.

But please don't fall for the propaganda. The " Just Say No " attitude stifles

informed debate, creating an environment of ignorance and mis-information.

People are going to take 'drugs' whatever the government or their parents

say,

whether those drugs are 'acceptable' (nicotine, caffiene, alchohol) or not

(eg: lsd, heroin, cannibis)

 

The " Just Say No " attitude is the *reason* that there are so many 'acid

casualties'.

 

Just say: " Please make an informed decision based on the best information

available,

having considered carefully the consequences of your actions on yourself and

society "

:-)

 

>Lesley Dove

 

Matt

[Guest guest]

Firstly, murder and rape involve a third party do they not?

Quite different to experimenting on yourself I think, and hardly comparible.

 

Yes LSD, Drugs, etc. have messed up the heads of many people, not that they

probably weren`t messed up in the first place. But they have also inspired

many people too, and many would argue that they have been the catalyst of

some wonderfully profound art and literature.

 

Whilst I do not take drugs anymore, I certainly do not think it is ethically

or moraly wrong to do so. You need to have your wits about you, especially

if you decide to experiment with the likes of LSD. If you don`t want to then

don`t. If you do want to then be careful, and try to have good friends

around you when you do.

 

MrBiG

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Nice to hear another sober voice Matt, I was beginning to feel very

disillusioned (must be all the previous abuse)

 

I didn`t want to go to deep into the whole thing, as I`ve had many tedious

converational experiences with the " Just Say No " brigade.

 

But I agree with your sentiments whole heartitly.

 

 

MrBig

 

p.s. It would be a very sad day veganism became mainstream and got hijacked

by the " far-right " .

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[Guest guest]

You are entitled to your view but mine is to say no.I dont believe that

being informed helps I think it makes some people curious It certainly would

with me.I kno little about drugs except that a person trying to give them to

me wants to harm me.Consequently I have always spoken

agaist drugs and pushers.AT university I never came across drugs even tho I

later learnt that a close friend was a pusher!!!I expect he kept it away

from me for fear of being shopped.So my attitude has kept me safe.I wouldnt

know if i was being offered a drug or sugar so I'd say no in case!No is

safe.My father recently died after struggling to breath for the last year of

his life'Caused by the rich tobacco drug pushers[shop owners,gov't

included]Lets hope you don't go the same way.Why is it drug takers seem to

think they have open minds ,implying the rest of us don't.I've got an open

mind.I can also cope with what life throws at me.[4 boys ,husband left

4years ago,pays no money, work full tim 2yrs ago my elderly parents came to

live with me,one of my children has downs syndrome'parents live

downstairsand use commode dad now dead]We cope bcause we have to its nothing

to do with practicing on drugs.{and I avoid caffeineand paracetamol]

 

 

 

 

-

" Matt " <matt

" Vegan Network " <vegan-network >

Sunday, March 04, 2001 2:48 PM

Re: Drugs and acid

 

 

>

> Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I feel really

> strongly about it, I also apologise if my viewpoint is alarming

> to anyone - I am not 'pro drugs', but I do try to keep an open mind

>

> >In my humble opinion, anyone who has ever had " acid days " has most likely

> >already lost the plot far too much to tell anyone else what they have

lost!

>

> In the past I have taken various (illegal) psychoactive substances,

> including acid.

> I do not suffer from flashbacks, anxiety attacks, a 'distorted' sense of

> reality,

> or any of the psychological problems associated with abuse of

hallucinogens.

> I am, however, still addicted to nicotine, and still drink once in a while

> :-(

> I truly regret having ever taken alchohol or nicotine,

> but I am very much looking forward to the next time I take mushrooms or

> acid.

> (which may well be years from now, or even never - please note the lack of

> addiction)

>

> There is a very clear distinction between

> use and *abuse*.

>

> >If you are lucky enough to have no long term psychological problems due

to

> >your acid days, you are very lucky. Don't you know that taking that even

> >just once is the equivalent of playing Russian Roulette with your sanity?

> >Some people are lucky depending on the circumstances in which they take

it,

> >but others are not so lucky.

>

> No. Some people are ignorant or reckless, others are not so ignorant.

> Acid (or any hallucinogen) is a dangerous tool, in exactly the same

> way that fire is a dangerous tool. You can light a fire to keep warm,

> or you can cover yourself in petrol and play with matches...

>

> Sure, I have friends and aquaintances who have 'lost it' due to acid,

> but we live in a society with very underdeveloped attitudes to drugs

( " Just

> say no " )

> Imagine a world where we said " Fire; Just say no! " .

> The hospitals would be full to the brim with budding pyromaniacs.

>

> >What's the point of drugs?

>

> Which drugs? Alchohol? LSD? Caffeine? Heroin? Paracetamol? Prozac?

> This lumping of all 'drugs' into a single category is part of the problem!

> If you mean hallucinogens specifically, then a good introduction is

> 'The Doors of Perception' (which deals with mescaline - which I have not

> taken).

>

> Hallucingens are useful for the tremendous amout that they can teach us

> about

> our perception of reality, consciousness, our sense of selves and our

sense

> of

> place in the universe.

> I am much *better* equipped to deal with what life throws at me for having

> done some serious introspection, both under the influence of hallucinogens

> and 'straight'.

> There are many aspects of my personality of which I am proud, that are

> due, at least in part, to previous, managed *use* of hallucinogens.

>

> >Why would anyone be so stupid and

> >self-destructive as to even try something so risky? I swear I have never

> >understood WHY people would take something as dangerous as acid! Just say

> >no, and teach your kids the same!

>

> If people treat acid as a 'recreational drug', then they are likely going

to

> get damaged, just like people who play with fire are going to get damaged.

> But please don't fall for the propaganda. The " Just Say No " attitude

stifles

> informed debate, creating an environment of ignorance and mis-information.

> People are going to take 'drugs' whatever the government or their parents

> say,

> whether those drugs are 'acceptable' (nicotine, caffiene, alchohol) or not

> (eg: lsd, heroin, cannibis)

>

> The " Just Say No " attitude is the *reason* that there are so many 'acid

> casualties'.

>

> Just say: " Please make an informed decision based on the best information

> available,

> having considered carefully the consequences of your actions on yourself

and

> society "

> :-)

>

> >Lesley Dove

>

> Matt

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Drug taking could bring about the loss of a good vegan.I wouldn't care if

you were an animal abuser

-

" mr big " <pervyempire

<vegan-network >

Sunday, March 04, 2001 4:09 PM

Re: Re: Drugs and acid

 

 

>

> Firstly, murder and rape involve a third party do they not?

> Quite different to experimenting on yourself I think, and hardly

comparible.

>

> Yes LSD, Drugs, etc. have messed up the heads of many people, not that

they

> probably weren`t messed up in the first place. But they have also inspired

> many people too, and many would argue that they have been the catalyst of

> some wonderfully profound art and literature.

>

> Whilst I do not take drugs anymore, I certainly do not think it is

ethically

> or moraly wrong to do so. You need to have your wits about you, especially

> if you decide to experiment with the likes of LSD. If you don`t want to

then

> don`t. If you do want to then be careful, and try to have good friends

> around you when you do.

>

> MrBiG

>

>

> _______________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Whats the far right and why do you assume some of us are in it?

-

" mr big " <pervyempire

<vegan-network >

Sunday, March 04, 2001 4:20 PM

Re: Re: Drugs and acid

 

 

> Nice to hear another sober voice Matt, I was beginning to feel very

> disillusioned (must be all the previous abuse)

>

> I didn`t want to go to deep into the whole thing, as I`ve had many tedious

> converational experiences with the " Just Say No " brigade.

>

> But I agree with your sentiments whole heartitly.

>

>

> MrBig

>

> p.s. It would be a very sad day veganism became mainstream and got

hijacked

> by the " far-right " .

> _______________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I apolgise if my posting was strongly worded;

I did not mean to insinuate that anyone had a closed mind,

or that people who do abstain cannot cope with life.

 

I just wanted to point out that my experiences with

illegal drugs (nameley: lsd, cannibis and mushrooms)

have enriched my life, whereas my experiences

with the legal ones have impoverished it.

 

How can not being informed possibly be helpfull?

In my experience, the best way to make people curious

about something is to tell them not to do it!

 

Having said that, choosing to say " no " - for whatever reason -

is a really sound thing to do, more power to anyone with the

strength to make the decision and stick to it.

 

Anyway, I hope no one's offended too much :-)

 

Matt

 

p.s. 99.9% (ish) of westerners are recreational 'drug takers', it's just a

question

of which drug we are talking about. I very rarely take any illegal drugs,

and

I only take nicotine because I'm a (s)addict; I'm no more a 'drug taker'

than

most people.

 

>You are entitled to your view but mine is to say no.I dont believe that

>being informed helps I think it makes some people curious It certainly

would

>with me.I kno little about drugs except that a person trying to give them

to

>me wants to harm me.Consequently I have always spoken

>agaist drugs and pushers.AT university I never came across drugs even tho I

>later learnt that a close friend was a pusher!!!I expect he kept it away

>from me for fear of being shopped.So my attitude has kept me safe.I wouldnt

>know if i was being offered a drug or sugar so I'd say no in case!No is

>safe.My father recently died after struggling to breath for the last year

of

>his life'Caused by the rich tobacco drug pushers[shop owners,gov't

>included]Lets hope you don't go the same way.Why is it drug takers seem to

>think they have open minds ,implying the rest of us don't.I've got an open

>mind.I can also cope with what life throws at me.[4 boys ,husband left

>4years ago,pays no money, work full tim 2yrs ago my elderly parents came to

>live with me,one of my children has downs syndrome'parents live

>downstairsand use commode dad now dead]We cope bcause we have to its

nothing

>to do with practicing on drugs.{and I avoid caffeineand paracetamol]

[Guest guest]

-- In vegan-network, " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote:

>> Drug taking could bring about the loss of a good vegan.I wouldn't

>care if

>> you were an animal abuser

>

 

I'm sorry, I find that a decidedly *un-vegan* response. In other words,

it's okay if drugs kill a non-vegan, but not a vegan.

 

I support *intelligent* and *responsible* recreational drug use. If it

weren't for some of this recreational use, I would never have conquered some

major emotional issues that have plagued me for a long, long time and have

affected my life in so many negative ways for so long. I am a different

person because I've had the opportunity to experience this and it's allowed

me to open up and look at parts of myself that I was never able to look at

before. Do I use hard drugs every day, every week, even every month? No.

Every 2-3 months, and even that's rare most of the time. Do I think someone

else should be able to regulate my choice to use these drugs when I've

handled it quite responsibly on my own? Not at all. Do I think there

should be restrictions, as there are on alcohol and tobacco? Certainly.

But I do *not* agree with someone telling me what I can and can put into my

body. Period.

 

Amanda

[Guest guest]

vegan-network, " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote:

> Drug taking could bring about the loss of a good vegan.I wouldn't

care if

> you were an animal abuser

 

It already did, remember River Phoenix?

 

Lesley

[Guest guest]

OK, being labelled tedious is one thing, but " FAR-RIGHT " ?

Where do you get that idea??

I don't consider myself or my view on harmful drugs to be far-left or

far-right, I just think for myself, thank you very much!

I hate these left and right wing labels, I don't think they are at

all helpful.

 

Lesley

 

 

vegan-network, " mr big " <pervyempire@h...> wrote:

> Nice to hear another sober voice Matt, I was beginning to feel very

> disillusioned (must be all the previous abuse)

>

> I didn`t want to go to deep into the whole thing, as I`ve had many

tedious

> converational experiences with the " Just Say No " brigade.

>

> But I agree with your sentiments whole heartitly.

>

>

> MrBig

>

> p.s. It would be a very sad day veganism became mainstream and got

hijacked

> by the " far-right " .

[Guest guest]

Matt,

 

I'm also pretty sure that if alcohol and tobacco were illegal there

would be fewer deaths from them, and fewer people addicted to them.

They kill more people than illegal drugs, because they are

commonplace and accepted, therefore the best answer would perhaps be

to make them illegal.

 

I would have absolutely no problem with prohibition of both tobacco

and alcohol, because the legal drugs kill so many people preciselty

because they are accepted and legal. Now I'm not 100% teetotal, but

if it was made law for the sake of preventing deaths among the people

with addictive and weak personalities, who can't drink sensibly, then

I would go with it and not complain, because it would be for the

greater good, and a very occasional drink is not a big thing to give

up.

 

I hope you manage to give up smoking, it's a filthy habit, and being

vegan is unlikely to save you from the inevitability of lung cancer

or bronchitis and emphysema if you continue.

 

Lesley

[Guest guest]

>

>I'm also pretty sure that if alcohol and tobacco were illegal there

>would be fewer deaths from them, and fewer people addicted to them.

>They kill more people than illegal drugs, because they are

>commonplace and accepted, therefore the best answer would perhaps be

>to make them illegal.

>

>I would have absolutely no problem with prohibition of both tobacco

>and alcohol, because the legal drugs kill so many people preciselty

>because they are accepted and legal. Now I'm not 100% teetotal, but

>if it was made law for the sake of preventing deaths among the people

>with addictive and weak personalities, who can't drink sensibly, then

>I would go with it and not complain, because it would be for the

>greater good, and a very occasional drink is not a big thing to give

>up.

 

 

VERY INTERESTING COMMENT LESLIE, especially following your disgruntled

responce to my " far-right " comments. To support prohibition is surely an

infringment on civil liberties....yes of coarse, do all we can to stop

people hurting or damaging other entities, but to take away the right to

live YOUR life as YOU want (provided it does not have adverse effect on

anyone else) is certainly a lot further to the right than I would ever go!

 

>I hope you manage to give up smoking, it's a filthy habit, and being

>vegan is unlikely to save you from the inevitability of lung cancer

>or bronchitis and emphysema if you continue.

 

Smoking is a bad habit, unfortunately most people get hooked on it before

they become retrospective.

 

 

MrBig

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[Guest guest]

Hurrah, another liberal vegan!!

_______________________

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[Guest guest]

> VERY INTERESTING COMMENT LESLIE, especially following your

disgruntled

> responce to my " far-right " comments. To support prohibition is

surely an

> infringment on civil liberties....yes of coarse, do all we can to

stop

> people hurting or damaging other entities, but to take away the

right to

> live YOUR life as YOU want (provided it does not have adverse

effect on

> anyone else) is certainly a lot further to the right than I would

ever go!

 

That's strange, I always thought it was the political left who were

the ones who were more in favour of regulating behaviour for the

greater good and the right were the ones who supported individual

liberty above all, whatever harm to others it causes.

 

> >I hope you manage to give up smoking, it's a filthy habit, and

being

> >vegan is unlikely to save you from the inevitability of lung cancer

> >or bronchitis and emphysema if you continue.

>

> Smoking is a bad habit, unfortunately most people get hooked on it

before

> they become retrospective.

 

They just need to use a bit of will-power, like my husband who gave

up after 16 years of smoking (he did it for me mostly), he used no

patches or artificial help, just pure will-power, I was very proud of

him, and my gran gave up smoking when I was a little girl after she

had been a smoker for many years, she did it all by herself too.

Neither of them had any problems, as for those who have a problem, I

think it's all in the mind, and they are just weak-willed.

 

Lesley

[Guest guest]

>

>That's strange, I always thought it was the political left who were

>the ones who were more in favour of regulating behaviour for the

>greater good and the right were the ones who supported individual

>liberty above all, whatever harm to others it causes.

 

I always thought the left was progressive. And what makes you think that

regulation and prohibition are for the greater good anyway?

 

 

>

>They just need to use a bit of will-power, like my husband who gave

>up after 16 years of smoking (he did it for me mostly), he used no

>patches or artificial help, just pure will-power, I was very proud of

>him, and my gran gave up smoking when I was a little girl after she

>had been a smoker for many years, she did it all by herself too.

>Neither of them had any problems, as for those who have a problem, I

>think it's all in the mind, and they are just weak-willed.

 

 

yeah and My Granda smoked till he was 90...they just need Iron Lungs!

Such a perfect world you live in Lesley!

 

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[Guest guest]

vegan-network, " mr big " <pervyempire@h...> wrote:

>

> >

> >That's strange, I always thought it was the political left who were

> >the ones who were more in favour of regulating behaviour for the

> >greater good and the right were the ones who supported individual

> >liberty above all, whatever harm to others it causes.

>

> I always thought the left was progressive. And what makes you think

that

> regulation and prohibition are for the greater good anyway?

>

If they save lives they are for the greater good.

>

> >

> >They just need to use a bit of will-power, like my husband who gave

> >up after 16 years of smoking (he did it for me mostly), he used no

> >patches or artificial help, just pure will-power, I was very proud

of

> >him, and my gran gave up smoking when I was a little girl after she

> >had been a smoker for many years, she did it all by herself too.

> >Neither of them had any problems, as for those who have a problem,

I

> >think it's all in the mind, and they are just weak-willed.

>

>

> yeah and My Granda smoked till he was 90...they just need Iron

Lungs!

> Such a perfect world you live in Lesley!

>

No, you think you live in a perfect world where nothing can hurt you.

I am the realist here.

Time to grow up " Little boy " .

 

Lesley

[Guest guest]

> > >That's strange, I always thought it was the political left who were

> > >the ones who were more in favour of regulating behaviour for the

> > >greater good and the right were the ones who supported individual

> > >liberty above all, whatever harm to others it causes.

> >

> > I always thought the left was progressive. And what makes you think

>that

> > regulation and prohibition are for the greater good anyway?

> >

>If they save lives they are for the greater good.

.............................................................

IF? Leslie...PLEASE listen...IF IF...where is the evidence that they do or

ever have????? And I mean REAL evidence...not propaganda.

.............................................................

 

>No, you think you live in a perfect world where nothing can hurt you.

>I am the realist here.

>Time to grow up " Little boy " .

 

Leslie my friend, if you really want to reduce SERIOUS debate into petty

insults then how does " fuck off " sound?

 

..............................................................

 

 

 

 

 

_______________________

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[Guest guest]

My Inbox is full of irrelevant flames!

please let's get back to the point.

Tom

-

" mr big " <pervyempire

<vegan-network >

Sunday, March 04, 2001 10:27 PM

Re: Re: Drugs and acid

 

 

>

>

> > > >That's strange, I always thought it was the political left who were

> > > >the ones who were more in favour of regulating behaviour for the

> > > >greater good and the right were the ones who supported individual

> > > >liberty above all, whatever harm to others it causes.

> > >

> > > I always thought the left was progressive. And what makes you think

> >that

> > > regulation and prohibition are for the greater good anyway?

> > >

> >If they save lives they are for the greater good.

> ............................................................

> IF? Leslie...PLEASE listen...IF IF...where is the evidence that they do or

> ever have????? And I mean REAL evidence...not propaganda.

> ............................................................

>

> >No, you think you live in a perfect world where nothing can hurt you.

> >I am the realist here.

> >Time to grow up " Little boy " .

>

> Leslie my friend, if you really want to reduce SERIOUS debate into petty

> insults then how does " fuck off " sound?

>

> .............................................................

>

>

>

>

>

> _______________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My first acid trip had good and bad points but the best was that it totally changed my outlook on life forever...and something that has the power to do that should be experienced by all at least one time!! I am still amazed to this day that a $5 little tab of paper made me just hystericlly laugh my butt of for nearly 15 hours....it was phonominal! Plus that same little paper made me feel musical vibrations in my heart and soul like I had never before in my life, the music totally took over my body in a very good way....for the majority of the trip I just HAD to dance, the faster the better...the music felt like warm rays of sunshine and the only way that I could embrace it was to dance, dance, dance.....it was an experience I will never forget.

 

>"mr big"

>vegan-network >vegan-network >Re: Re: Drugs and acid >Sun, 04 Mar 2001 16:09:55 -0000 > > >Firstly, murder and rape involve a third party do they not? >Quite different to experimenting on yourself I think, and hardly comparible. > >Yes LSD, Drugs, etc. have messed up the heads of many people, not that they >probably weren`t messed up in the first place. But they have also inspired >many people too, and many would argue that they have been the catalyst of >some wonderfully profound art and literature. > >Whilst I do not take drugs anymore, I certainly do not think it is ethically >or moraly wrong to do so. You need to have your wits about you, especially >if you decide to experiment with the likes of LSD. If you don`t want to then >don`t. If you do want to then be careful, and try to have good friends >around you when you do. > >MrBiG > > >_______________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

i have to say, i am 100% both of you on your anti-drugs stance.

 

if arrogant is accurate then i would have no argument about the use of it

but it had no place within the context within which it was last used. it

was mere caustic hyperbole.

 

> I find the words Big boy more of a problem!!!!

 

BiG is his nickname. boy was a play on words relating to his flaming

accusations of everyone who does not agree with his beliefs being

arrgoant. i find that to be an immature tactic as i said to him in a

private email, along with the tabloidesque tactics of trying to call

people " far right " and " class war " . i thought that this was the

pro-active guy, now it is the psycho-active guy and he seems to be

seeding discord into what has been a really pleasant, inspiring and

enjoyable list up until now.

 

forwarding personal emails in a way which was intending to be damaging is

taking something deliberately out of the context in which it was

intended. how would you feel if you wrote something to me privately and i

sent it deliberately onto the list in a BiG ha ha! in many of the list

that i been part of that would be grounds for explusion. it a nasty

breach of trust and confidence.

 

i have to say that on the basis of very wide experience of this subject,

i have to agree 100% with those of you who value the human machine too

greatly to play with the loaded gun that psychoactive drugs are. [ in

fact, i also find it hard to be able to say that someone is actually a

vegan if they smoke cigarettes to that industries major investment in

animal torture. ] it is a great shame that society still has to wade the

morass that the 60s left us and the confusion created by propoganda of

self-interest pumped out by drug users.

 

it is good to remember that the whole psychedelic drug culture was fueled

as much by the CIA and other such agencies who saw it as a useful weapon.

a friend of mine actually witnessed the tests done on unwitting students

in closed campuses at ohio state university. the human guinea pigs they

used. and yes, it has all been tested on animals too.

 

the amount of human wreckage i have seen from whacked out users, to the

victims of dealers, to the perversion of societies' values and the waste

of bandwidths such as this thread is starting do not warrant any

reputated good that drugs said to come have out of it. that good could

have come from benign sources. drugs finance and empower some very dark

and evil people. spiritually, it is very, very bad for the mind and

subtle bodies or aura. it leaves people open to spiritual forces that

they do not understand or even recognise.

 

acquaintences have hung out with the people that made a profession out of

it, like leary and burroughs. i even have even known laterly nick

saunders. the man pushing the whole " E is good, it cured my depression " ,

in the uk. and god, if there was ever a man for whom the word arrogance

was caste there was one. irresponsible would not be far behind it, not

solely my own opinion, and the rest of them deserve that too for the

damage they have done in comparison to the good they could have done.

 

for me the division is not so much a moral argument, let along one of so

called " civil rights " . the question lies in whether you believe salvation

lies in more vain and self-centred activity or as much self-less

activity, good thoughts, good actions, as you can muster. we seem to be

drowning in " me-ness " or self-interest. what has it got to do with

veganism. it only strengthens negative public perceptions of who we are.

i am equally disappointed the green party has started piddling in the

clean waters of a good cause over this one.

 

veganism - and what would be considered a " straight edge " lifestyle to me

- is a step away from this. it is a hell of a lot harder and more radical

than just being sucked in by distractions playing out sad 60s stereotypes

or whatever. " salvation " to me would have to found in taking steps away

from self-centred activity to help, influence or effect others is an

easily positive way. set an alternative example.

 

in a world where there is so much hunger, suffering and injustice; is it

really that important to push a drug adgenda? is it really that much of

priority? is it the most important thing to do - to be allowed by daddy

to get stoned out of your gourd? does it really help the cause to be out

of it?

 

can you really say the whole experience has created generations of really

useful, active, considerate progressives? no. mainly just more " me

people " and a large proportion of burned out casualities.

 

and yet society must carry the costs of that wreckage.

 

i dont think that i have ever heard of one charity supported by drug

supporters dedicated specifically to looking after the drug damaged. not

even there friends.

 

oh, mummy society must take care of that too.

 

and who would these people trust to police an unihibited, industrialised

mon-cashcropped druggie heaven society?

 

the hells angels? the columbians? the yardies.

 

it is interesting to see even amsterdam and holland are rolling back

their tolerance. until you had been confronted by a steaming crack head,

seen women pursued down the street by them, know of things that i know

but would not bring up onto this list; you are being really irresponsible

in setting an example of complicity or acceptability with all this just

because it is in your interest.

 

you are hand and hand in those crimes.

 

unfortunately taking the advantages of a society leaves you responsible

for setting an example to the weaker members of that society. and

hopefully to spreading a little bit of that commonwealth to those outside

of it who have none or have had their's stolen from them.

 

even expend a little time and energy defending those living creates that

do not have a voice.

 

john

[Guest guest]

uh oh this is getting ugly! How come the only email i get if from Mr. Big!?!?!!?...which by the way I thought was a guy........I cant see the other people involved in this conversation and its really frustrating!!

 

>"mr big"

>vegan-network >vegan-network >Re: Re: Drugs and acid >Sun, 04 Mar 2001 22:27:34 -0000 > > > > > > >That's strange, I always thought it was the political left who were > > > >the ones who were more in favour of regulating behaviour for the > > > >greater good and the right were the ones who supported individual > > > >liberty above all, whatever harm to others it causes. > > > > > > I always thought the left was progressive. And what makes you think > >that > > > regulation and prohibition are for the greater good anyway? > > > > >If they save lives they are for the greater good. >............................................................ >IF? Leslie...PLEASE listen...IF IF...where is the evidence that they do or >ever have????? And I mean REAL evidence...not propaganda. >............................................................ > > >No, you think you live in a perfect world where nothing can hurt you. > >I am the realist here. > >Time to grow up "Little boy". > >Leslie my friend, if you really want to reduce SERIOUS debate into petty >insults then how does "fuck off" sound? > >............................................................. > > > > > >_______________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com