Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 - In , " Nicola Qureshi " <nicolaqureshi@t...> wrote: Most meat eaters are decent people, they have just been conditioned to believe that meat eating is okay. ------------------------------ Some people think that raping Granny is ok. They see no harm in doing such things. They would even open a door for you and smile sincerely as you pass. Are they decent? And to use a non-human analogy, cats play with birds (I have witnessed this behavior in the past). They torture the birds over a prolonged time. Eventually the birds would die. The very same cats who snuggle up with their human guardians later the same day. Assuming that the cats are unaware of the pain they cause, and that they think nothing is wrong with their activity, are they decent? Whether it is begotten of ignorance or impudence. The effects of evil are the same (evil is evil!). In flagrante delicto, the treatment of the perpetrator is the same regardless of mitigation. Ignorance does in know way assuage the effects of a persons ill deeds. -------------------------------- Just because somebody doesn't share your exact morals or beliefs does not make them bad. -------------------------------- It could be said that: There are no morals, no ethics, no right no wrong. There exists just power, the lack of it, wretched filth, and those who are not wretched filth. -------------------------------- And I don't think it's very nice when people speak of meat-eaters with such contempt (by which I do not mean you so much). It's hypocritical. > > Nikki -------------------------------- Hypocritical is a bit strong. I am paradoxical at best! On the subject of contempt. I disagree. More contempt is needed. Your tolerance of animal abusers can only act as a hindrance to them changing. It would aid masking the problem, and could give it the mendacious facade of being alright. -------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 24, 2004 , " veganseer " <veganseer@h...> wrote: > Reality should be 'scared' into all. Terrorists would agree with that. I don't think it's the way. To teach a child about fire you don't have to burn her or to scare her. You just have to hold her hand gently just close enough to a flame so she feels the heat and say " hot, hurt " . Leo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 24, 2004 Veganseer, You hurt people in your cuse to save animals, that is not right. What have animals created for you? Have they created the computer and the Internet you use? Have they discovered cures for illnesses? Animals will not save your life if they see you bleeding after an accident, unless they are trained by people. Animals will not perform life saving surgery on you either. Animals will lick you blood. So be more careful to respect people when you stand for animals. What is your opinion of animal predators by the way? Should they be extinct? Should they be allowed to kill? What do you think of lions and crocodiles? Leo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 25, 2004 That's an odd response to what I posted. Are you sure that you read it properly? Perhaps you should take another look. I seem to have yet again been mis-interpreted, which is why your post goes off on such a tangent! I could, however, respond to each point that you raised. But I would have to get very fundamental and even philosophical in my response. I am feeling just too insipid at the moment, and I have too many other things to do. But, quote me from my previous posts. Raise a logical counter argument to something specific which I wrote. Then I would be more than pleased to reply. , " Leonor Gomes " <mais1mae> wrote: > Veganseer, > > You hurt people in your cuse to save animals, that is not right. What > have animals created for you? Have they created the computer and the > Internet you use? Have they discovered cures for illnesses? > > Animals will not save your life if they see you bleeding after an > accident, unless they are trained by people. Animals will not perform > life saving surgery on you either. Animals will lick you blood. > > So be more careful to respect people when you stand for animals. > > What is your opinion of animal predators by the way? Should they be > extinct? Should they be allowed to kill? What do you think of lions > and crocodiles? > > Leo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 27, 2004 Just throw in a late comment here. Wouldn't it be better to feed predatory animals on a vegan diet ( in a encouraging way)?. Then everyone will be happy. > > What is your opinion of animal predators by the way? Should they > be > > extinct? Should they be allowed to kill? What do you think of > lions > > and crocodiles? > > > > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 27, 2004 , " simonpjones " <simonpjones@o...> wrote: > Just throw in a late comment here. > > Wouldn't it be better to feed predatory animals on a vegan diet ( in a > encouraging way)?. Then everyone will be happy. If it's possible with cats and dogs it might be possible with others. The problem is their instincts. And it's not exactly ecological if we allow rats to spread because we feed owls tofu, for instance. Unless we controled their reproduction. Leo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 27, 2004 > > Wouldn't it be better to feed predatory animals on a vegan diet ( > in a > > encouraging way)?. Then everyone will be happy. > > If it's possible with cats and dogs it might be possible with others. > The problem is their instincts. And it's not exactly ecological if we > allow rats to spread because we feed owls tofu, for instance. Unless > we controled their reproduction. > > > Maybe carnivores instincts could change over time much like vegans dogs. It's possible we could harmonize with nature and have a certain amount of controll over the reproduction of certain animals that wouldn't infringe too much of their sense of freedom. Simon > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 27, 2004 Perhaps future generations, once animals are liberated from humans and everyone is vegan, will think about " ethoforming " the fauna so that all predators are either selected or genetically engineered to kill humanely? I think it would be hard to stop every single scavenger and herbivore species from reproducing as much as the food supply allows. But there are generally fewer species of predator in a given ecosystem, so they might be easier to manage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 28, 2004 - " Ian McDonald " <ian Sunday, June 27, 2004 12:56 PM Re: Re: Meat or accident,. > I think it would be hard to stop every single scavenger and herbivore > species from reproducing as much as the food supply allows. But there > are generally fewer species of predator in a given ecosystem, so they > might be easier to manage.> Didn't answer your the second part of your view in my post. Do you think it is necessary to to wait for the human specie to be vegan, before concentrating on another species concerning veganism? Simon > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 28, 2004 Humans should not impose upon animals in this way at all. They are free to do as they wish and that's how they survive. We have no right to play God like that. Nikki - simonpjones Monday, June 28, 2004 3:54 PM Re: Re: Meat or accident,. -"Ian McDonald" <ianSunday, June 27, 2004 12:56 PMRe: Re: Meat or accident,.> I think it would be hard to stop every single scavenger and herbivore> species from reproducing as much as the food supply allows. But there> are generally fewer species of predator in a given ecosystem, so they> might be easier to manage.>Didn't answer your the second part of your view in my post.Do you think it is necessary to to wait for the human specie to be vegan,before concentrating on another species concerning veganism?Simon>>> ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author,> there may be another side to the story you have not heard.> ---------------------------> Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>> Un: send a blank message to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 28, 2004 - Nicola Qureshi Monday, June 28, 2004 9:48 PM Re: Meat or accident,. Humans should not impose upon animals in this way at all. They are free to do as they wish and that's how they survive. We have no right to play God like that.> If what you say is true, then ought we not have cats and dogs as pets? Simon - simonpjones Monday, June 28, 2004 3:54 PM Re: Re: Meat or accident,. -"Ian McDonald" <ianSunday, June 27, 2004 12:56 PMRe: Re: Meat or accident,.> I think it would be hard to stop every single scavenger and herbivore> species from reproducing as much as the food supply allows. But there> are generally fewer species of predator in a given ecosystem, so they> might be easier to manage.>Didn't answer your the second part of your view in my post.Do you think it is necessary to to wait for the human specie to be vegan,before concentrating on another species concerning veganism?Simon>>> ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author,> there may be another side to the story you have not heard.> ---------------------------> Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>> Un: send a blank message to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 28, 2004 That's a difficult question. I love my pets and they wouldn't survive on their own. I can't go back and change years of breeding now. I adopt my pets from rescue centres and I do this because I want to help. If we had never bred any pets, then we wouldn't have them and we wouldn't miss them. But I can't go back in time and change that. If we started trying to modify the behaviour of wild animals they too would inevitably end up not being wild animals anymore. I'm finding it difficult to make my meaning clear here but do you get the gist? Sorry it's not very coherent, I'm knackered. :o/ I feel selfish now. ( I hate my conscience I turn thing around and around in my head and then make myself feel bad. Nikki - simonpjones Monday, June 28, 2004 10:38 PM Re: Re: Meat or accident,. - Nicola Qureshi Monday, June 28, 2004 9:48 PM Re: Meat or accident,. Humans should not impose upon animals in this way at all. They are free to do as they wish and that's how they survive. We have no right to play God like that.> If what you say is true, then ought we not have cats and dogs as pets? Simon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 29, 2004 - Nicola Qureshi Monday, June 28, 2004 10:52 PM Re: Meat or accident,. That's a difficult question. I love my pets and they wouldn't survive on their own. I can't go back and change years of breeding now. I adopt my pets from rescue centres and I do this because I want to help. If we had never bred any pets, then we wouldn't have them and we wouldn't miss them. But I can't go back in time and change that. If we started trying to modify the behaviour of wild animals they too would inevitably end up not being wild animals anymore.> Animals like to befriend humans sometimes..or at least want our food. I don't particularly agree with breeding animals, but animals have helped to save humans many times, I believe there has to be some sort of relationship between species one that helps eachother. Animals can still roam freely without having to chase a poor herivore animal down and kill the poor thing. Why do u think it would be wrong to help animals back on a plant food diet? I hope u are ok there?..why should you feel bad for your thoughts? Simon I havn't got the link here but u might find ..The Wadi Articles interesting (article 35).I Nikki - simonpjones Monday, June 28, 2004 10:38 PM Re: Re: Meat or accident,. - Nicola Qureshi Monday, June 28, 2004 9:48 PM Re: Meat or accident,. Humans should not impose upon animals in this way at all. They are free to do as they wish and that's how they survive. We have no right to play God like that.> If what you say is true, then ought we not have cats and dogs as pets? Simon~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 29, 2004 Wouldn't it be difficult to maintain populations as well as ensure correct nutrition? We could damage ecosystems in unforeseen ways... but I think I need to find out more about this subject. It just sounds so radical even a little over the top. If somebody has a link to that article I'd much appreciate it! As for feeling bad about my thoughts, I make myself feel guilty very easily (part of depression). I know I'm doing it but seem unable to stop myself! Nikki - simonpjones Tuesday, June 29, 2004 6:11 PM Re: Re: Meat or accident,. - Nicola Qureshi Monday, June 28, 2004 10:52 PM Re: Meat or accident,. That's a difficult question. I love my pets and they wouldn't survive on their own. I can't go back and change years of breeding now. I adopt my pets from rescue centres and I do this because I want to help. If we had never bred any pets, then we wouldn't have them and we wouldn't miss them. But I can't go back in time and change that. If we started trying to modify the behaviour of wild animals they too would inevitably end up not being wild animals anymore.> Animals like to befriend humans sometimes..or at least want our food. I don't particularly agree with breeding animals, but animals have helped to save humans many times, I believe there has to be some sort of relationship between species one that helps eachother. Animals can still roam freely without having to chase a poor herivore animal down and kill the poor thing. Why do u think it would be wrong to help animals back on a plant food diet? I hope u are ok there?..why should you feel bad for your thoughts? Simon I havn't got the link here but u might find ..The Wadi Articles interesting (article 35).I Nikki - simonpjones Monday, June 28, 2004 10:38 PM Re: Re: Meat or accident,. - Nicola Qureshi Monday, June 28, 2004 9:48 PM Re: Meat or accident,. Humans should not impose upon animals in this way at all. They are free to do as they wish and that's how they survive. We have no right to play God like that.> If what you say is true, then ought we not have cats and dogs as pets? Simon~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 30, 2004 - Nicola Qureshi Tuesday, June 29, 2004 9:12 PM Re: Meat or accident,. >Wouldn't it be difficult to maintain populations as well as ensure correct nutrition? We could damage >ecosystems in unforeseen ways... but I think I need to find out more about this subject. It just sounds >so radical even a little over the top. If somebody has a link to that article I'd much appreciate it!> It does at first seem radical or over the top but when looked into with logical even compassionate reasoning it seems acceptable. For instance.. is it more acceptable that we take controll of billions of all kinds of animals already for a number of reasons, mostly for cruel reasons? If you type ...vegan feed lions..or similiar wording you should get some info on it. >As for feeling bad about my thoughts, I make myself feel guilty very easily (part of depression). I know >I'm doing it but seem unable to stop myself!> I understand, I'm not stranger to similiar feeling and thoughts. Have u found a vegan lifestyle makes u feel better than u might other wise feel? Simon - simonpjones Tuesday, June 29, 2004 6:11 PM Re: Re: Meat or accident,. - Nicola Qureshi Monday, June 28, 2004 10:52 PM Re: Meat or accident,. That's a difficult question. I love my pets and they wouldn't survive on their own. I can't go back and change years of breeding now. I adopt my pets from rescue centres and I do this because I want to help. If we had never bred any pets, then we wouldn't have them and we wouldn't miss them. But I can't go back in time and change that. If we started trying to modify the behaviour of wild animals they too would inevitably end up not being wild animals anymore.> Animals like to befriend humans sometimes..or at least want our food. I don't particularly agree with breeding animals, but animals have helped to save humans many times, I believe there has to be some sort of relationship between species one that helps eachother. Animals can still roam freely without having to chase a poor herivore animal down and kill the poor thing. Why do u think it would be wrong to help animals back on a plant food diet? I hope u are ok there?..why should you feel bad for your thoughts? Simon I havn't got the link here but u might find ..The Wadi Articles interesting (article 35).I Nikki - simonpjones Monday, June 28, 2004 10:38 PM Re: Re: Meat or accident,. - Nicola Qureshi Monday, June 28, 2004 9:48 PM Re: Meat or accident,. Humans should not impose upon animals in this way at all. They are free to do as they wish and that's how they survive. We have no right to play God like that.> If what you say is true, then ought we not have cats and dogs as pets? Simon~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 30, 2004 Yes, a vegan lifestyle has gone a long way to making me feel better in general as well as making me feel healthier! I've lost at least a stone since becoming vegan which also makes me feel a lot better about myself! Nikki - simonpjones Wednesday, June 30, 2004 9:07 PM Re: Re: Meat or accident,. - Nicola Qureshi Tuesday, June 29, 2004 9:12 PM Re: Meat or accident,. >Wouldn't it be difficult to maintain populations as well as ensure correct nutrition? We could damage >ecosystems in unforeseen ways... but I think I need to find out more about this subject. It just sounds >so radical even a little over the top. If somebody has a link to that article I'd much appreciate it!> It does at first seem radical or over the top but when looked into with logical even compassionate reasoning it seems acceptable. For instance.. is it more acceptable that we take controll of billions of all kinds of animals already for a number of reasons, mostly for cruel reasons? If you type ...vegan feed lions..or similiar wording you should get some info on it. >As for feeling bad about my thoughts, I make myself feel guilty very easily (part of depression). I know >I'm doing it but seem unable to stop myself!> I understand, I'm not stranger to similiar feeling and thoughts. Have u found a vegan lifestyle makes u feel better than u might other wise feel? Simon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
