Guest guest Report post Posted January 1, 1970 Yea, but this is different. It gives people a way to interact and it is actually interesting to try to guess. Then, when the images are revealed, there's genuine surprise. I think it's good, anyway. It may not cause an immediate epiphany, but it might plant a seed. k@ On Jun 20, 2004, at 19:44, Leonor Gomes wrote: > , " veganseer " <veganseer@h...> wrote: >> Take a look at this. Show others. Perhaps it could be used to make >> point to non vegans? >> >> >> http://www.meatoraccident.co.uk/ > > I personally think shock images are not a good way to persuade people. > > Leo > > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to > - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 20, 2004 , " veganseer " <veganseer@h...> wrote: > Take a look at this. Show others. Perhaps it could be used to make > point to non vegans? > > > http://www.meatoraccident.co.uk/ I personally think shock images are not a good way to persuade people. Leo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 20, 2004 , K@ <kittyveg@b...> wrote: > Yea, but this is different. It gives people a way to interact and it > is actually interesting to try to guess. Then, when the images are > revealed, there's genuine surprise. I think it's good, anyway. It may > not cause an immediate epiphany, but it might plant a seed. Yes, it's fun in a way, but I'm not sure it will be convincing. You could do the same with vegetable pictures, if you blend certain vegetables together they look like blood. My mum used to do such a scare show sometimes with tomatoes and beetroot like " argh I cut myself " . You can make an " onion " or " real tears " site too. Childbirth and surgery can also be graphic, so I think a person has to get the moral before of getting the image. What convinced me to veganism was my child and his kindness towards animals, even insects, and when he asked " the fish fingers are not real fish, are they? " . Leo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 20, 2004 Ugh, I was hungry before I looked at that site, then it made me feel a bit sick! Still hungry though! I think it's quite good, because the things are so similar. I don't think it's an " Eeew that looks gross, oh my god it's actually meat! " thing, I think it's more of a " Wow look at all the blood, that must be an accident. Oh no it's not, it's meat! Wow, animals have blood and stuff just like us, maybe they're not so different... " thing. People might see the similarities between themselves and the animals they eat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 21, 2004 If that made the chunks rumble a bit, then go to: http://ogrish.com/ I think it is kind of a nice idea to blow up some of the pictures from that site. Mount them to boards, and with others hold them up to the windows of fast filth (food) places. Especially the pictures of victims of a plane which crashed into a mountain at 600mph. , " gothcatz " <gothcatz> wrote: > Ugh, I was hungry before I looked at that site, then it made me feel > a bit sick! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 21, 2004 People become vegan for different reasons, some from seeing horrific images of animal slaughter other from images of kindness, Different approaches should get throught to different people, It's suprizing so many people can pass butcher shops or walk down supermarket aisles without a blink of an eye. Simon - " Leonor Gomes " <mais1mae Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:44 PM Re: Meat or accident,. > , " veganseer " <veganseer@h...> wrote: > > Take a look at this. Show others. Perhaps it could be used to make > > point to non vegans? > > > > > > http://www.meatoraccident.co.uk/ > > I personally think shock images are not a good way to persuade people. > > Leo > > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 22, 2004 People know animals have blood and flesh and bones, that's not a good argument. I don't think comparing people to animals is a good idea, much less with schock images. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 22, 2004 Umm...no. I don't even want to know how you FOUND this site. Eep. k@ On Jun 21, 2004, at 00:47, veganseer wrote: > If that made the chunks rumble a bit, then go to: http://ogrish.com/ > > I think it is kind of a nice idea to blow up some of the pictures > from that site. Mount them to boards, and with others hold them up > to the windows of fast filth (food) places. Especially the pictures > of victims of a plane which crashed into a mountain at 600mph. > > > , " gothcatz " <gothcatz> wrote: >> Ugh, I was hungry before I looked at that site, then it made me > feel >> a bit sick! > > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to > - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 22, 2004 Hey sick or what? Its all meat to some, that`s why I am a vegan. I don`t think for one minute that it will convert anyone to vegie/vegan ( unless THEY had the accident!) The Valley Vegan.Leonor Gomes <mais1mae wrote: , "veganseer" wrote:> Take a look at this. Show others. Perhaps it could be used to make > point to non vegans?> > > http://www.meatoraccident.co.uk/I personally think shock images are not a good way to persuade people.Leo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 22, 2004 - " Leonor Gomes " <mais1mae Tuesday, June 22, 2004 3:24 PM Re: Meat or accident,. > People know animals have blood and flesh and bones, that's not a good > argument. I don't think comparing people to animals is a good idea, > much less with schock images.> >Because we are some similiar to other flesh bearing creatures, it is hard not to see the comparisons, heads,hair, eyes, noses, ears, internal organs, fathers, mothers, babies, feeling etc. Wouldn't it be harder to find differences rather than the similiarities between species? Some people have given up eatinjg animal flesh through seeing shock images or even seeing animals slaughtered, some through seeing animals living peacefully with others, different approaches help different people come to veganism. Simon Quote " Sophisticating meat-eating doesn't make it any less savage or any more civilized " > > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 22, 2004 , " Leonor Gomes " <mais1mae> wrote: > People know animals have blood and flesh and bones, that's not a good > argument. I don't think comparing people to animals is a good idea, > much less with schock images. My idea of holding human gore images up at the windows of puke shops such as Mc shit, or murder king etc., is really aimed just to piss those scumbags off. It might convert a few to veganism. It has more of a chance of, then-and-there putting them off the filth they were just about to devour. In the minds of some, it could even leave a lasting association within their heads of gore pictures and these filth parlors. It seems obvious that most animal abusers above a certain age, shall never change. I shall rejoice on learning of their deaths. If a difference is to be made regarding the treatment of animals, then it is children who need to be targeted with education. Education regarding the reality of animal abuse and how much of an every day occurrence it is in this wretched human society. The gore pictures at the window, and curiosity as to why the trouble was taken to hold them up in the first place would be food for thought for children. I only wish I had been subject to such a lesson when I was younger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 , " simonpjones " <simonpjones@o...> wrote: > Wouldn't it be harder to find > differences rather than the similiarities between species? I think it's easy to see both the similiarities and the differences. No animal can speak or write or create things. I grew in a country that wasn't shy to show bullfights and pigs' slaughter on TV, I also saw my grandparents slaughtering a rabit, and it wasn't that that convinced me to veganism. It was more the ignorance and duality people have towards animals welfare " it doesn't hurt when they die " and outated beliefs we still need them to survive and my responsabilty towards my child. There is lot of aggressive reaction to the veganism movement, like people saying " you save a cow, I'll eat three " , so sometimes I worry if that is a consequence of aggressive vegan campaigns. Or maybe some carnivores just like to be mean. Leo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 , " veganseer " <veganseer@h...> wrote: Sorry if I'm carrying the debate here, tell me if I should stop. > My idea of holding human gore images up at the windows of puke shops > such as Mc shit, or murder king etc., is really aimed just to piss > those scumbags off. It might convert a few to veganism. It has more > of a chance of, then-and-there putting them off the filth they were > just about to devour. In the minds of some, it could even leave a > lasting association within their heads of gore pictures and these > filth parlors. I understand, but this is not a good way to treat people. You probably grew to associate animal eating with comfort and happiness and later learned otherwise. Using shock images to reverse people's opinions it's using the same strategy people used with you even if in reverse. People need good explanations and to learn good alternatives to food. Let's teach them people don't need milk or meat and can be even healthier without them. Why don't you make panphlets with cool vegan burger recipes for instance? > It seems obvious that most animal abusers above a certain age, shall > never change. I shall rejoice on learning of their deaths. Can't you see the double message you send with your hatred? You almost sound like a terrorist speaking. People are human, they commit mistakes in their freedom to choose. Nobody can know for sure what is right and what is wrong. One of the things that actually put me off veganism before was actually hearing vegan saying sentences like yours. I also met a vegan who said he was more sorry for an abandoned dog than a child starving in Ethiopia. This is not right! > The gore pictures > at the window, and curiosity as to why the trouble was taken to hold > them up in the first place would be food for thought for children. I'm sorry but if you held horror pictures up to my child and caused him distress I would have no respect for what you were saying. > I > only wish I had been subject to such a lesson when I was younger. You probably wished you weren't lied to and allowed to make your own choices regarding food. Having strangers showing you gore pictures would probably just scare you. And whatever you ate in the past forgive yourself, because you didn't knew better then. Leo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 , " Leonor Gomes " <mais1mae> wrote: > > > > grew to associate animal eating with comfort and happiness and later > learned otherwise. ------------------------------- Just to clarify as I cannot resist. I was lucky enough to reject most foods directly derived from animals, naturally from birth. This despite carnist parents. Therefore I was vegetarian (although I was caught out with gelatin etc. about which I knew nothing) all of my life up until about 11 years ago. That is when my eyes where eventually opened to the virtues of veganism. ------------------------------- > Using shock images to reverse people's opinions > it's using the same strategy people used with you even if in reverse. > People need good explanations and to learn good alternatives to food. > Let's teach them people don't need milk or meat and can be even > healthier without them. Why don't you make panphlets with cool vegan > burger recipes for instance? -------------------------------- I extol the work of all those campaigning for animal justice. It may seem rather pessimistic, but until the innately evil filth of humanity above a certain age dies off, then animals shall continue to suffer. I agree that many 'mature' humans could become vegan. But, alas, most will not. I do not know what the exact figures are but every time one of these pernicious wretches dies, then several animals are saved. Maybe it is more realistic to write off these 'contemporary days'. Maybe animal justice will only arrive when properly educated children grow to replace the execrable rabble whom prevailed before them. > > Can't you see the double message you send with your hatred? > > You almost sound like a terrorist speaking. People are human, they > commit mistakes in their freedom to choose. Nobody can know for sure > what is right and what is wrong. ----------------------------- Any pyrrhonist would agree that ultimate reality is unbeknown, and those who dispute that are usually paralogists. But I live by what I refer to as 'shared perception reality'. And I judge the 'perceived logic' within this realm with a sense of ratiocination pertaining to just that. So although I try not to be a cocksure, self-righteous, insular bigot with abounding arrogance to-boot, it seems obvious to me that much harm is caused by the contemporary human way. Harm to all life on Earth. I would be surprised if I am alone with that thought, especially in this e-group. Hatred is an unfortunate thing to feel, unless it is food for motivation in the otherwise insipid. But take my words literally. For rejoice I certainly would if the virus of humanity was to become extinct. ------------------------------- One of the things that actually put > me off veganism before was actually hearing vegan saying sentences > like yours. I also met a vegan who said he was more sorry for an > abandoned dog than a child starving in Ethiopia. This is not right! > > > I'm sorry but if you held horror pictures up to my child and caused > him distress I would have no respect for what you were saying. ------------------------------ It is a problem with humans that the message goes often unread. Valid points are frequently ignored due to aversion regarding the image of the messenger. The message would be aimed at the children, not the procreators whose opinions I would expect to be 'anti-amelioration'. Especially those who allow their progeny to eat at the fast filth places mentioned earlier. And on the subject of procreation, this site is quite interesting: http://www.vhemt.org/ Reality should be 'scared' into all. Only then, after the true scale of its negativity is revealed, can the path toward amelioration be walked. Only then can ill ways be rectified. --------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 - " Leonor Gomes " <mais1mae Wednesday, June 23, 2004 8:48 AM Re: Meat or accident,. > > I think it's easy to see both the similiarities and the differences. > No animal can speak or write or create things.> I hear animals speaking to each other all the time..each in there own language....birds can be lively talkers in the mornings. It could be argued that birds create nests of all kinds...And I 've seen an elephant holding a artists paint brush and painting on a canvass, choosing colours. Complexity and diverity could be the only real difference between any specie. I think carnivorous practices has to make someone mean..even if they don't mean to be. Simon > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 You can't scare people into veganism. It doesn't work and it's totally wrong. People like you make the rest of us look bad. You just anger people and turn them even more against us. Whenever I tell someone I'm vegan they often assume I'm some kind of violent activist. I make a point of not preaching to people and when people ask me the reasons for my choice (which they very often do) I explain to them in a calm and rational manner. I find this makes people really think and not just react. Some people will never listen but that doesn't mean that shoving horrific photographs in their face will work either. Nikki - veganseer Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:52 AM Re: Meat or accident,. , "Leonor Gomes" <mais1mae> wrote:>> > > grew to associate animal eating with comfort and happiness and later> learned otherwise.-------------------------------Just to clarify as I cannot resist. I was lucky enough to reject most foods directly derived from animals, naturally from birth. This despite carnist parents. Therefore I was vegetarian (although I was caught out with gelatin etc. about which I knew nothing) all of my life up until about 11 years ago. That is when my eyes where eventually opened to the virtues of veganism.-------------------------------> Using shock images to reverse people's opinions> it's using the same strategy people used with you even if in reverse.> People need good explanations and to learn good alternatives to food.> Let's teach them people don't need milk or meat and can be even> healthier without them. Why don't you make panphlets with cool vegan> burger recipes for instance?--------------------------------I extol the work of all those campaigning for animal justice.It may seem rather pessimistic, but until the innately evil filth of humanity above a certain age dies off, then animals shall continue to suffer. I agree that many 'mature' humans could become vegan. But, alas, most will not. I do not know what the exact figures are but every time one of these pernicious wretches dies, then several animals are saved. Maybe it is more realistic to write off these 'contemporary days'. Maybe animal justice will only arrive when properly educated children grow to replace the execrable rabble whom prevailed before them.> > Can't you see the double message you send with your hatred?> > You almost sound like a terrorist speaking. People are human, they> commit mistakes in their freedom to choose. Nobody can know for sure> what is right and what is wrong.-----------------------------Any pyrrhonist would agree that ultimate reality is unbeknown, and those who dispute that are usually paralogists. But I live by what I refer to as 'shared perception reality'. And I judge the 'perceived logic' within this realm with a sense of ratiocination pertaining to just that. So although I try not to be a cocksure, self-righteous, insular bigot with abounding arrogance to-boot, it seems obvious to me that much harm is caused by the contemporary human way. Harm to all life on Earth. I would be surprised if I am alone with that thought, especially in this e-group.Hatred is an unfortunate thing to feel, unless it is food for motivation in the otherwise insipid. But take my words literally. For rejoice I certainly would if the virus of humanity was to become extinct.-------------------------------One of the things that actually put> me off veganism before was actually hearing vegan saying sentences> like yours. I also met a vegan who said he was more sorry for an> abandoned dog than a child starving in Ethiopia. This is not right!> > > I'm sorry but if you held horror pictures up to my child and caused> him distress I would have no respect for what you were saying.------------------------------It is a problem with humans that the message goes often unread. Valid points are frequently ignored due to aversion regarding the image of the messenger.The message would be aimed at the children, not the procreators whose opinions I would expect to be 'anti-amelioration'. Especially those who allow their progeny to eat at the fast filth places mentioned earlier. And on the subject of procreation, this site is quite interesting: http://www.vhemt.org/Reality should be 'scared' into all. Only then, after the true scale of its negativity is revealed, can the path toward amelioration be walked. Only then can ill ways be rectified.---------------------------~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 , " Nicola Qureshi " <nicolaqureshi@t...> wrote: > You can't scare people into veganism. It doesn't work and it's totally wrong. People like you make the rest of us look bad. You just anger people and turn them even more against us. Whenever I tell someone I'm vegan they often assume I'm some kind of violent activist. I make a point of not preaching to people and when people ask me the reasons for my choice (which they very often do) I explain to them in a calm and rational manner. I find this makes people really think and not just react. Some people will never listen but that doesn't mean that shoving horrific photographs in their face will work either. > > Nikki I think that you have misread my post. Do not try to place me into a pre-existing category to which I do not belong. When I talk to non-vegans about veganism, either online or face to face, I am perfectly calm. Even when my reasoning is met with inane comments such as; " Mmmm, you have made me hungry. I think I will go to Mc Donalds and buy a nice juicy ham burger " , and so on. Do not read what I have written out of context. Take it literally, do not pre-judge. And shoving gore photos into the faces of evil may very well not work. But unlike killing animals, killing them is illegal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Just like to say showing people horrific photos can work as it reminds people of whast happens to animalos much like showing horrific photos of motor accidents, fires, wars etc...it can at least remind people of the reality...and you never know one day people on the whole may click to the harsh savagery of eating animals. Simon - " veganseer " <veganseer Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:48 PM Re: Meat or accident,. > , " Nicola Qureshi " > <nicolaqureshi@t...> wrote: > > You can't scare people into veganism. It doesn't work and it's > totally wrong. People like you make the rest of us look bad. You > just anger people and turn them even more against us. Whenever I > tell someone I'm vegan they often assume I'm some kind of violent > activist. I make a point of not preaching to people and when people > ask me the reasons for my choice (which they very often do) I > explain to them in a calm and rational manner. I find this makes > people really think and not just react. Some people will never > listen but that doesn't mean that shoving horrific photographs in > their face will work either. > > > > Nikki > > > > I think that you have misread my post. Do not try to place me into a > pre-existing category to which I do not exist. > > When I talk to non-vegans about veganism, either online or face to > face, I am perfectly calm. Even when my reasoning is met with inane > comments such as; " Mmmm, you have made me hungry. I think I will go > to Mc Donalds and buy a nice juicy ham burger " , and so on. Do not > read what I have written out of context. Take it literally, do not > pre-judge. And shoving gore photos into the faces of evil may very > well not work. But unlike killing animals, killing them is illegal. > > > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 I still think you have the wrong attitude. Nikki - veganseer Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:48 PM Re: Meat or accident,. , "Nicola Qureshi" <nicolaqureshi@t...> wrote:> You can't scare people into veganism. It doesn't work and it's totally wrong. People like you make the rest of us look bad. You just anger people and turn them even more against us. Whenever I tell someone I'm vegan they often assume I'm some kind of violent activist. I make a point of not preaching to people and when people ask me the reasons for my choice (which they very often do) I explain to them in a calm and rational manner. I find this makes people really think and not just react. Some people will never listen but that doesn't mean that shoving horrific photographs in their face will work either.> > NikkiI think that you have misread my post. Do not try to place me into a pre-existing category to which I do not exist. When I talk to non-vegans about veganism, either online or face to face, I am perfectly calm. Even when my reasoning is met with inane comments such as; "Mmmm, you have made me hungry. I think I will go to Mc Donalds and buy a nice juicy ham burger", and so on. Do not read what I have written out of context. Take it literally, do not pre-judge. And shoving gore photos into the faces of evil may very well not work. But unlike killing animals, killing them is illegal.~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 That's not a fair accusation, not logical at all, since no-one else but you can make you look bad (to rational people that is). If ignorant and prejudiced meat-eaters assume things about you just because you are vegan, then it's their fault not Veganseer's fault, you are blaming the wrong people by blaming other vegans for being more "in your face" than you happen to choose to be. I am definitely not in agreement with everything Veganseer says, especially not the VHEMT but we are all individuals with our own slightly different ways of putting across our veganism, and that is something we should show more tolerance over. Lesley Nicola Qureshi [nicolaqureshi]23 June 2004 12:27 Subject: Re: Re: Meat or accident,. You can't scare people into veganism. It doesn't work and it's totally wrong. People like you make the rest of us look bad. You just anger people and turn them even more against us. Whenever I tell someone I'm vegan they often assume I'm some kind of violent activist. I make a point of not preaching to people and when people ask me the reasons for my choice (which they very often do) I explain to them in a calm and rational manner. I find this makes people really think and not just react. Some people will never listen but that doesn't mean that shoving horrific photographs in their face will work either. Nikki - veganseer Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:52 AM Re: Meat or accident,. , "Leonor Gomes" <mais1mae> wrote:>> > > grew to associate animal eating with comfort and happiness and later> learned otherwise.-------------------------------Just to clarify as I cannot resist. I was lucky enough to reject most foods directly derived from animals, naturally from birth. This despite carnist parents. Therefore I was vegetarian (although I was caught out with gelatin etc. about which I knew nothing) all of my life up until about 11 years ago. That is when my eyes where eventually opened to the virtues of veganism.-------------------------------> Using shock images to reverse people's opinions> it's using the same strategy people used with you even if in reverse.> People need good explanations and to learn good alternatives to food.> Let's teach them people don't need milk or meat and can be even> healthier without them. Why don't you make panphlets with cool vegan> burger recipes for instance?--------------------------------I extol the work of all those campaigning for animal justice.It may seem rather pessimistic, but until the innately evil filth of humanity above a certain age dies off, then animals shall continue to suffer. I agree that many 'mature' humans could become vegan. But, alas, most will not. I do not know what the exact figures are but every time one of these pernicious wretches dies, then several animals are saved. Maybe it is more realistic to write off these 'contemporary days'. Maybe animal justice will only arrive when properly educated children grow to replace the execrable rabble whom prevailed before them.> > Can't you see the double message you send with your hatred?> > You almost sound like a terrorist speaking. People are human, they> commit mistakes in their freedom to choose. Nobody can know for sure> what is right and what is wrong.-----------------------------Any pyrrhonist would agree that ultimate reality is unbeknown, and those who dispute that are usually paralogists. But I live by what I refer to as 'shared perception reality'. And I judge the 'perceived logic' within this realm with a sense of ratiocination pertaining to just that. So although I try not to be a cocksure, self-righteous, insular bigot with abounding arrogance to-boot, it seems obvious to me that much harm is caused by the contemporary human way. Harm to all life on Earth. I would be surprised if I am alone with that thought, especially in this e-group.Hatred is an unfortunate thing to feel, unless it is food for motivation in the otherwise insipid. But take my words literally. For rejoice I certainly would if the virus of humanity was to become extinct.-------------------------------One of the things that actually put> me off veganism before was actually hearing vegan saying sentences> like yours. I also met a vegan who said he was more sorry for an> abandoned dog than a child starving in Ethiopia. This is not right!> > > I'm sorry but if you held horror pictures up to my child and caused> him distress I would have no respect for what you were saying.------------------------------It is a problem with humans that the message goes often unread. Valid points are frequently ignored due to aversion regarding the image of the messenger.The message would be aimed at the children, not the procreators whose opinions I would expect to be 'anti-amelioration'. Especially those who allow their progeny to eat at the fast filth places mentioned earlier. And on the subject of procreation, this site is quite interesting: http://www.vhemt.org/Reality should be 'scared' into all. Only then, after the true scale of its negativity is revealed, can the path toward amelioration be walked. Only then can ill ways be rectified.---------------------------~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 That's how I feel. There is a minority of over militant people who cause trouble and just p**s people off. Would you say that prejudice against muslims is nothing to do with terrorists? Nikki - Lesley Dove Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:39 PM RE: Re: Meat or accident,. That's not a fair accusation, not logical at all, since no-one else but you can make you look bad (to rational people that is). If ignorant and prejudiced meat-eaters assume things about you just because you are vegan, then it's their fault not Veganseer's fault, you are blaming the wrong people by blaming other vegans for being more "in your face" than you happen to choose to be. I am definitely not in agreement with everything Veganseer says, especially not the VHEMT but we are all individuals with our own slightly different ways of putting across our veganism, and that is something we should show more tolerance over. Lesley Nicola Qureshi [nicolaqureshi]23 June 2004 12:27 Subject: Re: Re: Meat or accident,. You can't scare people into veganism. It doesn't work and it's totally wrong. People like you make the rest of us look bad. You just anger people and turn them even more against us. Whenever I tell someone I'm vegan they often assume I'm some kind of violent activist. I make a point of not preaching to people and when people ask me the reasons for my choice (which they very often do) I explain to them in a calm and rational manner. I find this makes people really think and not just react. Some people will never listen but that doesn't mean that shoving horrific photographs in their face will work either. Nikki - veganseer Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:52 AM Re: Meat or accident,. , "Leonor Gomes" <mais1mae> wrote:>> > > grew to associate animal eating with comfort and happiness and later> learned otherwise.-------------------------------Just to clarify as I cannot resist. I was lucky enough to reject most foods directly derived from animals, naturally from birth. This despite carnist parents. Therefore I was vegetarian (although I was caught out with gelatin etc. about which I knew nothing) all of my life up until about 11 years ago. That is when my eyes where eventually opened to the virtues of veganism.-------------------------------> Using shock images to reverse people's opinions> it's using the same strategy people used with you even if in reverse.> People need good explanations and to learn good alternatives to food.> Let's teach them people don't need milk or meat and can be even> healthier without them. Why don't you make panphlets with cool vegan> burger recipes for instance?--------------------------------I extol the work of all those campaigning for animal justice.It may seem rather pessimistic, but until the innately evil filth of humanity above a certain age dies off, then animals shall continue to suffer. I agree that many 'mature' humans could become vegan. But, alas, most will not. I do not know what the exact figures are but every time one of these pernicious wretches dies, then several animals are saved. Maybe it is more realistic to write off these 'contemporary days'. Maybe animal justice will only arrive when properly educated children grow to replace the execrable rabble whom prevailed before them.> > Can't you see the double message you send with your hatred?> > You almost sound like a terrorist speaking. People are human, they> commit mistakes in their freedom to choose. Nobody can know for sure> what is right and what is wrong.-----------------------------Any pyrrhonist would agree that ultimate reality is unbeknown, and those who dispute that are usually paralogists. But I live by what I refer to as 'shared perception reality'. And I judge the 'perceived logic' within this realm with a sense of ratiocination pertaining to just that. So although I try not to be a cocksure, self-righteous, insular bigot with abounding arrogance to-boot, it seems obvious to me that much harm is caused by the contemporary human way. Harm to all life on Earth. I would be surprised if I am alone with that thought, especially in this e-group.Hatred is an unfortunate thing to feel, unless it is food for motivation in the otherwise insipid. But take my words literally. For rejoice I certainly would if the virus of humanity was to become extinct.-------------------------------One of the things that actually put> me off veganism before was actually hearing vegan saying sentences> like yours. I also met a vegan who said he was more sorry for an> abandoned dog than a child starving in Ethiopia. This is not right!> > > I'm sorry but if you held horror pictures up to my child and caused> him distress I would have no respect for what you were saying.------------------------------It is a problem with humans that the message goes often unread. Valid points are frequently ignored due to aversion regarding the image of the messenger.The message would be aimed at the children, not the procreators whose opinions I would expect to be 'anti-amelioration'. Especially those who allow their progeny to eat at the fast filth places mentioned earlier. And on the subject of procreation, this site is quite interesting: http://www.vhemt.org/Reality should be 'scared' into all. Only then, after the true scale of its negativity is revealed, can the path toward amelioration be walked. Only then can ill ways be rectified.---------------------------~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 And you're assuming that all meat-eaters are "ignorant and prejudiced". Nikki - Lesley Dove Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:39 PM RE: Re: Meat or accident,. That's not a fair accusation, not logical at all, since no-one else but you can make you look bad (to rational people that is). If ignorant and prejudiced meat-eaters assume things about you just because you are vegan, then it's their fault not Veganseer's fault, you are blaming the wrong people by blaming other vegans for being more "in your face" than you happen to choose to be. I am definitely not in agreement with everything Veganseer says, especially not the VHEMT but we are all individuals with our own slightly different ways of putting across our veganism, and that is something we should show more tolerance over. Lesley Nicola Qureshi [nicolaqureshi]23 June 2004 12:27 Subject: Re: Re: Meat or accident,. You can't scare people into veganism. It doesn't work and it's totally wrong. People like you make the rest of us look bad. You just anger people and turn them even more against us. Whenever I tell someone I'm vegan they often assume I'm some kind of violent activist. I make a point of not preaching to people and when people ask me the reasons for my choice (which they very often do) I explain to them in a calm and rational manner. I find this makes people really think and not just react. Some people will never listen but that doesn't mean that shoving horrific photographs in their face will work either. Nikki - veganseer Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:52 AM Re: Meat or accident,. , "Leonor Gomes" <mais1mae> wrote:>> > > grew to associate animal eating with comfort and happiness and later> learned otherwise.-------------------------------Just to clarify as I cannot resist. I was lucky enough to reject most foods directly derived from animals, naturally from birth. This despite carnist parents. Therefore I was vegetarian (although I was caught out with gelatin etc. about which I knew nothing) all of my life up until about 11 years ago. That is when my eyes where eventually opened to the virtues of veganism.-------------------------------> Using shock images to reverse people's opinions> it's using the same strategy people used with you even if in reverse.> People need good explanations and to learn good alternatives to food.> Let's teach them people don't need milk or meat and can be even> healthier without them. Why don't you make panphlets with cool vegan> burger recipes for instance?--------------------------------I extol the work of all those campaigning for animal justice.It may seem rather pessimistic, but until the innately evil filth of humanity above a certain age dies off, then animals shall continue to suffer. I agree that many 'mature' humans could become vegan. But, alas, most will not. I do not know what the exact figures are but every time one of these pernicious wretches dies, then several animals are saved. Maybe it is more realistic to write off these 'contemporary days'. Maybe animal justice will only arrive when properly educated children grow to replace the execrable rabble whom prevailed before them.> > Can't you see the double message you send with your hatred?> > You almost sound like a terrorist speaking. People are human, they> commit mistakes in their freedom to choose. Nobody can know for sure> what is right and what is wrong.-----------------------------Any pyrrhonist would agree that ultimate reality is unbeknown, and those who dispute that are usually paralogists. But I live by what I refer to as 'shared perception reality'. And I judge the 'perceived logic' within this realm with a sense of ratiocination pertaining to just that. So although I try not to be a cocksure, self-righteous, insular bigot with abounding arrogance to-boot, it seems obvious to me that much harm is caused by the contemporary human way. Harm to all life on Earth. I would be surprised if I am alone with that thought, especially in this e-group.Hatred is an unfortunate thing to feel, unless it is food for motivation in the otherwise insipid. But take my words literally. For rejoice I certainly would if the virus of humanity was to become extinct.-------------------------------One of the things that actually put> me off veganism before was actually hearing vegan saying sentences> like yours. I also met a vegan who said he was more sorry for an> abandoned dog than a child starving in Ethiopia. This is not right!> > > I'm sorry but if you held horror pictures up to my child and caused> him distress I would have no respect for what you were saying.------------------------------It is a problem with humans that the message goes often unread. Valid points are frequently ignored due to aversion regarding the image of the messenger.The message would be aimed at the children, not the procreators whose opinions I would expect to be 'anti-amelioration'. Especially those who allow their progeny to eat at the fast filth places mentioned earlier. And on the subject of procreation, this site is quite interesting: http://www.vhemt.org/Reality should be 'scared' into all. Only then, after the true scale of its negativity is revealed, can the path toward amelioration be walked. Only then can ill ways be rectified.---------------------------~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Have to say here, Meat-eating is too lowly and activity too consider anyone who practices it, not to be ignorant, other- wise how could a person seriously justify it? Simon Nicola Qureshi Wednesday, June 23, 2004 2:18 PM Re: Re: Meat or accident,. And you're assuming that all meat-eaters are "ignorant and prejudiced". Nikki - Lesley Dove Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:39 PM RE: Re: Meat or accident,. That's not a fair accusation, not logical at all, since no-one else but you can make you look bad (to rational people that is). If ignorant and prejudiced meat-eaters assume things about you just because you are vegan, then it's their fault not Veganseer's fault, you are blaming the wrong people by blaming other vegans for being more "in your face" than you happen to choose to be. I am definitely not in agreement with everything Veganseer says, especially not the VHEMT but we are all individuals with our own slightly different ways of putting across our veganism, and that is something we should show more tolerance over. Lesley Nicola Qureshi [nicolaqureshi]23 June 2004 12:27 Subject: Re: Re: Meat or accident,. You can't scare people into veganism. It doesn't work and it's totally wrong. People like you make the rest of us look bad. You just anger people and turn them even more against us. Whenever I tell someone I'm vegan they often assume I'm some kind of violent activist. I make a point of not preaching to people and when people ask me the reasons for my choice (which they very often do) I explain to them in a calm and rational manner. I find this makes people really think and not just react. Some people will never listen but that doesn't mean that shoving horrific photographs in their face will work either. Nikki - veganseer Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:52 AM Re: Meat or accident,. , "Leonor Gomes" <mais1mae> wrote:>> > > grew to associate animal eating with comfort and happiness and later> learned otherwise.-------------------------------Just to clarify as I cannot resist. I was lucky enough to reject most foods directly derived from animals, naturally from birth. This despite carnist parents. Therefore I was vegetarian (although I was caught out with gelatin etc. about which I knew nothing) all of my life up until about 11 years ago. That is when my eyes where eventually opened to the virtues of veganism.-------------------------------> Using shock images to reverse people's opinions> it's using the same strategy people used with you even if in reverse.> People need good explanations and to learn good alternatives to food.> Let's teach them people don't need milk or meat and can be even> healthier without them. Why don't you make panphlets with cool vegan> burger recipes for instance?--------------------------------I extol the work of all those campaigning for animal justice.It may seem rather pessimistic, but until the innately evil filth of humanity above a certain age dies off, then animals shall continue to suffer. I agree that many 'mature' humans could become vegan. But, alas, most will not. I do not know what the exact figures are but every time one of these pernicious wretches dies, then several animals are saved. Maybe it is more realistic to write off these 'contemporary days'. Maybe animal justice will only arrive when properly educated children grow to replace the execrable rabble whom prevailed before them.> > Can't you see the double message you send with your hatred?> > You almost sound like a terrorist speaking. People are human, they> commit mistakes in their freedom to choose. Nobody can know for sure> what is right and what is wrong.-----------------------------Any pyrrhonist would agree that ultimate reality is unbeknown, and those who dispute that are usually paralogists. But I live by what I refer to as 'shared perception reality'. And I judge the 'perceived logic' within this realm with a sense of ratiocination pertaining to just that. So although I try not to be a cocksure, self-righteous, insular bigot with abounding arrogance to-boot, it seems obvious to me that much harm is caused by the contemporary human way. Harm to all life on Earth. I would be surprised if I am alone with that thought, especially in this e-group.Hatred is an unfortunate thing to feel, unless it is food for motivation in the otherwise insipid. But take my words literally. For rejoice I certainly would if the virus of humanity was to become extinct.-------------------------------One of the things that actually put> me off veganism before was actually hearing vegan saying sentences> like yours. I also met a vegan who said he was more sorry for an> abandoned dog than a child starving in Ethiopia. This is not right!> > > I'm sorry but if you held horror pictures up to my child and caused> him distress I would have no respect for what you were saying.------------------------------It is a problem with humans that the message goes often unread. Valid points are frequently ignored due to aversion regarding the image of the messenger.The message would be aimed at the children, not the procreators whose opinions I would expect to be 'anti-amelioration'. Especially those who allow their progeny to eat at the fast filth places mentioned earlier. And on the subject of procreation, this site is quite interesting: http://www.vhemt.org/Reality should be 'scared' into all. Only then, after the true scale of its negativity is revealed, can the path toward amelioration be walked. Only then can ill ways be rectified.---------------------------~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 No I assumed no such thing. I meant the types of people you meant, the ones who assume that all vegans are violent activists, I never said I thought that all meat-eaters were so absurdly stupid and prejudiced. But you seem more angry with vegans who are not like you than you seem angry with the anti-vegan prejudiced meat-eaters, can't you see that this is wrong and blaming the wrong ppl? I think we need to focus on the fact that as vegans we are on the same side, with some meat-eaters being against us but some on the fence and more open-minded. I don't think it is a good idea for us vegans to attack one another, I feel that we need to stick together and accept a few differences in approach. Of course a person has to be ignorant or just downright callous to continue eating animals well into adulthood anyway. The question is whether they are open-minded to the possibility of becoming less ignorant, if they are merely ignorant but not callous. If they are not open-minded I really wouldn't bother having anything much to do with them. Don't let idiots get to you, pick your battles when it comes to dealing with animal eaters, some you will never get through to because they want to remain ignorant and prejudiced, just concentrate on those who have a bit more of an open-mind. I'm sorry you had to deal with anti-vegan prejudice, but I think we have most of us had that at some time. I don't waste my effort on those ppl any more. Lesley Nicola Qureshi [nicolaqureshi]23 June 2004 14:18 Subject: Re: Re: Meat or accident,. And you're assuming that all meat-eaters are "ignorant and prejudiced". Nikki - Lesley Dove Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:39 PM RE: Re: Meat or accident,. That's not a fair accusation, not logical at all, since no-one else but you can make you look bad (to rational people that is). If ignorant and prejudiced meat-eaters assume things about you just because you are vegan, then it's their fault not Veganseer's fault, you are blaming the wrong people by blaming other vegans for being more "in your face" than you happen to choose to be. I am definitely not in agreement with everything Veganseer says, especially not the VHEMT but we are all individuals with our own slightly different ways of putting across our veganism, and that is something we should show more tolerance over. Lesley Nicola Qureshi [nicolaqureshi]23 June 2004 12:27 Subject: Re: Re: Meat or accident,. You can't scare people into veganism. It doesn't work and it's totally wrong. People like you make the rest of us look bad. You just anger people and turn them even more against us. Whenever I tell someone I'm vegan they often assume I'm some kind of violent activist. I make a point of not preaching to people and when people ask me the reasons for my choice (which they very often do) I explain to them in a calm and rational manner. I find this makes people really think and not just react. Some people will never listen but that doesn't mean that shoving horrific photographs in their face will work either. Nikki - veganseer Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:52 AM Re: Meat or accident,. , "Leonor Gomes" <mais1mae> wrote:>> > > grew to associate animal eating with comfort and happiness and later> learned otherwise.-------------------------------Just to clarify as I cannot resist. I was lucky enough to reject most foods directly derived from animals, naturally from birth. This despite carnist parents. Therefore I was vegetarian (although I was caught out with gelatin etc. about which I knew nothing) all of my life up until about 11 years ago. That is when my eyes where eventually opened to the virtues of veganism.-------------------------------> Using shock images to reverse people's opinions> it's using the same strategy people used with you even if in reverse.> People need good explanations and to learn good alternatives to food.> Let's teach them people don't need milk or meat and can be even> healthier without them. Why don't you make panphlets with cool vegan> burger recipes for instance?--------------------------------I extol the work of all those campaigning for animal justice.It may seem rather pessimistic, but until the innately evil filth of humanity above a certain age dies off, then animals shall continue to suffer. I agree that many 'mature' humans could become vegan. But, alas, most will not. I do not know what the exact figures are but every time one of these pernicious wretches dies, then several animals are saved. Maybe it is more realistic to write off these 'contemporary days'. Maybe animal justice will only arrive when properly educated children grow to replace the execrable rabble whom prevailed before them.> > Can't you see the double message you send with your hatred?> > You almost sound like a terrorist speaking. People are human, they> commit mistakes in their freedom to choose. Nobody can know for sure> what is right and what is wrong.-----------------------------Any pyrrhonist would agree that ultimate reality is unbeknown, and those who dispute that are usually paralogists. But I live by what I refer to as 'shared perception reality'. And I judge the 'perceived logic' within this realm with a sense of ratiocination pertaining to just that. So although I try not to be a cocksure, self-righteous, insular bigot with abounding arrogance to-boot, it seems obvious to me that much harm is caused by the contemporary human way. Harm to all life on Earth. I would be surprised if I am alone with that thought, especially in this e-group.Hatred is an unfortunate thing to feel, unless it is food for motivation in the otherwise insipid. But take my words literally. For rejoice I certainly would if the virus of humanity was to become extinct.-------------------------------One of the things that actually put> me off veganism before was actually hearing vegan saying sentences> like yours. I also met a vegan who said he was more sorry for an> abandoned dog than a child starving in Ethiopia. This is not right!> > > I'm sorry but if you held horror pictures up to my child and caused> him distress I would have no respect for what you were saying.------------------------------It is a problem with humans that the message goes often unread. Valid points are frequently ignored due to aversion regarding the image of the messenger.The message would be aimed at the children, not the procreators whose opinions I would expect to be 'anti-amelioration'. Especially those who allow their progeny to eat at the fast filth places mentioned earlier. And on the subject of procreation, this site is quite interesting: http://www.vhemt.org/Reality should be 'scared' into all. Only then, after the true scale of its negativity is revealed, can the path toward amelioration be walked. Only then can ill ways be rectified.---------------------------~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 23, 2004 I'm not angry with anyone here. I was merely trying to voice my opinion. Most meat eaters are decent people, they have just been conditioned to believe that meat eating is okay. "It's natural" - which it is - and the like. Most of my friends eat meat, they're great people they just don't understand why I feel how I do. It's all down to personal choice at the end of the day but my main point was that shock tactics are not justified. Just because somebody doesn't share your exact morals or beliefs does not make them bad. I'm not going to disown my mother because she eats meat despite knowing the same things I do. And I don't think it's very nice when people speak of meat-eaters with such contempt (by which I do not mean you so much). It's hypocritical. Nikki - Lesley Dove Wednesday, June 23, 2004 4:50 PM RE: Re: Meat or accident,. No I assumed no such thing. I meant the types of people you meant, the ones who assume that all vegans are violent activists, I never said I thought that all meat-eaters were so absurdly stupid and prejudiced. But you seem more angry with vegans who are not like you than you seem angry with the anti-vegan prejudiced meat-eaters, can't you see that this is wrong and blaming the wrong ppl? I think we need to focus on the fact that as vegans we are on the same side, with some meat-eaters being against us but some on the fence and more open-minded. I don't think it is a good idea for us vegans to attack one another, I feel that we need to stick together and accept a few differences in approach. Of course a person has to be ignorant or just downright callous to continue eating animals well into adulthood anyway. The question is whether they are open-minded to the possibility of becoming less ignorant, if they are merely ignorant but not callous. If they are not open-minded I really wouldn't bother having anything much to do with them. Don't let idiots get to you, pick your battles when it comes to dealing with animal eaters, some you will never get through to because they want to remain ignorant and prejudiced, just concentrate on those who have a bit more of an open-mind. I'm sorry you had to deal with anti-vegan prejudice, but I think we have most of us had that at some time. I don't waste my effort on those ppl any more. Lesley Nicola Qureshi [nicolaqureshi]23 June 2004 14:18 Subject: Re: Re: Meat or accident,. And you're assuming that all meat-eaters are "ignorant and prejudiced". Nikki - Lesley Dove Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:39 PM RE: Re: Meat or accident,. That's not a fair accusation, not logical at all, since no-one else but you can make you look bad (to rational people that is). If ignorant and prejudiced meat-eaters assume things about you just because you are vegan, then it's their fault not Veganseer's fault, you are blaming the wrong people by blaming other vegans for being more "in your face" than you happen to choose to be. I am definitely not in agreement with everything Veganseer says, especially not the VHEMT but we are all individuals with our own slightly different ways of putting across our veganism, and that is something we should show more tolerance over. Lesley Nicola Qureshi [nicolaqureshi]23 June 2004 12:27 Subject: Re: Re: Meat or accident,. You can't scare people into veganism. It doesn't work and it's totally wrong. People like you make the rest of us look bad. You just anger people and turn them even more against us. Whenever I tell someone I'm vegan they often assume I'm some kind of violent activist. I make a point of not preaching to people and when people ask me the reasons for my choice (which they very often do) I explain to them in a calm and rational manner. I find this makes people really think and not just react. Some people will never listen but that doesn't mean that shoving horrific photographs in their face will work either. Nikki - veganseer Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:52 AM Re: Meat or accident,. , "Leonor Gomes" <mais1mae> wrote:>> > > grew to associate animal eating with comfort and happiness and later> learned otherwise.-------------------------------Just to clarify as I cannot resist. I was lucky enough to reject most foods directly derived from animals, naturally from birth. This despite carnist parents. Therefore I was vegetarian (although I was caught out with gelatin etc. about which I knew nothing) all of my life up until about 11 years ago. That is when my eyes where eventually opened to the virtues of veganism.-------------------------------> Using shock images to reverse people's opinions> it's using the same strategy people used with you even if in reverse.> People need good explanations and to learn good alternatives to food.> Let's teach them people don't need milk or meat and can be even> healthier without them. Why don't you make panphlets with cool vegan> burger recipes for instance?--------------------------------I extol the work of all those campaigning for animal justice.It may seem rather pessimistic, but until the innately evil filth of humanity above a certain age dies off, then animals shall continue to suffer. I agree that many 'mature' humans could become vegan. But, alas, most will not. I do not know what the exact figures are but every time one of these pernicious wretches dies, then several animals are saved. Maybe it is more realistic to write off these 'contemporary days'. Maybe animal justice will only arrive when properly educated children grow to replace the execrable rabble whom prevailed before them.> > Can't you see the double message you send with your hatred?> > You almost sound like a terrorist speaking. People are human, they> commit mistakes in their freedom to choose. Nobody can know for sure> what is right and what is wrong.-----------------------------Any pyrrhonist would agree that ultimate reality is unbeknown, and those who dispute that are usually paralogists. But I live by what I refer to as 'shared perception reality'. And I judge the 'perceived logic' within this realm with a sense of ratiocination pertaining to just that. So although I try not to be a cocksure, self-righteous, insular bigot with abounding arrogance to-boot, it seems obvious to me that much harm is caused by the contemporary human way. Harm to all life on Earth. I would be surprised if I am alone with that thought, especially in this e-group.Hatred is an unfortunate thing to feel, unless it is food for motivation in the otherwise insipid. But take my words literally. For rejoice I certainly would if the virus of humanity was to become extinct.-------------------------------One of the things that actually put> me off veganism before was actually hearing vegan saying sentences> like yours. I also met a vegan who said he was more sorry for an> abandoned dog than a child starving in Ethiopia. This is not right!> > > I'm sorry but if you held horror pictures up to my child and caused> him distress I would have no respect for what you were saying.------------------------------It is a problem with humans that the message goes often unread. Valid points are frequently ignored due to aversion regarding the image of the messenger.The message would be aimed at the children, not the procreators whose opinions I would expect to be 'anti-amelioration'. Especially those who allow their progeny to eat at the fast filth places mentioned earlier. And on the subject of procreation, this site is quite interesting: http://www.vhemt.org/Reality should be 'scared' into all. Only then, after the true scale of its negativity is revealed, can the path toward amelioration be walked. Only then can ill ways be rectified.---------------------------~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? 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