An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003

[Guest guest]

ty janey,

had wonderful mushroom sandwich this morning with vegan sausages..........wonderful!!!!!!!

catherine

>"veganjaney"

> > > Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003 >Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:30:56 -0000 > >Yes, why not have a time of being self indulgent and thinking about >No. 1 for a change! All the best Catherine, Janey x > > Stuck for ideas this Christmas? Find bags of gift inspiration at MSN Shopping!

[Guest guest]

ty jo

i hope to relax at the solstice/crimbo................my mother has been asking what will i eat on christmas day......she is trying

catherine

>"veganjaney"

> > > Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003 >Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:27:54 -0000 > >Me too Catherine - wishing you all the best. :-) > >Janey xxx > > > > Hi Catherine > > > > Sorry about the divorce. I hope everything fits into place and >you can get some enjoyment from the Solstice/Yule. > > > > BB > > Jo > > If you're fed up with spam in your inbox sign for MSN 8 with it's intelligent junk e-mail filters.

[Guest guest]

That sarcasm against Simon was totally uncalled for Oliver, especially coming as it does from you as a christian to another christian. I'm not sure why you are often so mean to Simon, I've noticed it before, so what gives?

 

I'm not a christian but I understand that even in the bible humans were only given permission to eat meat after the flood, but created as vegans. No doubt god changed his mind about the status of animals at some point (!) which hardly makes him infallible anyway if the bible is the word of god, but it's not surprising the bible is so contradictory since the whole idea of there being a god is an idea created by the men (not many women) who wrote the bible and attributed to god quite simply the ideas they wanted to put across as the right ones. They no doubt thought that if they said god was on their side more people would follow their views! Sadly it seemed to work at the time of the bible because so many people were superstitious in one way or another and easily impressed by clever magicians and conjurors creating so-called miracles. These days we have Derren Brown and his ilk but we know him for what he is and he does not try to make a religion of his conjuring the way the less scrupulous ones did many years ago! Not sure about David Blaine though, I liked him better as a conjuror before he started getting weird ideas and claiming some spiritual significance behind his self-starvation.

 

As a vegan and an atheist I believe that humans create god in their own chosen image, this is why there are so many religions and even strong disagreements within religions. I don't personally feel the need to promote the idea of having god on our side or needing god's approval for our compassion for animals. We know it is right to respect other living things and that should be enough of an idea to promote as a good idea without bringing god or religion into it. It almost certainly makes it a bit harder to get ideas through to people without a religion backing you, people are so used to being told what to believe by people saying this is what god wants and we will get rewarded after this life if we do as god wants, and rejecting the notion of god also encourages people to think things out more for themselves and most people are not used to doing that. So much of religion seems to be making people good to others for the wrong reasons, ie so they get their reward in heaven or when they are reincarnated, and not because they really care about the suffering of others.

 

All this could be a load of cynical crap but I'm prepared to take the chance on the possibility of burning in hell because I think it is so unlikely there is anything for us after this life.

 

I'll get my coat..

 

Lesley

 

 

Oliver Slay [oliver]18 November 2003 14:06 Subject: RE: Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003

only because you are blinded by it ...

 

 

 

simon [simonpjones] I suppose those reading the Bible( in what ever time since written) wouldhave noted a few paragraphes into Genesis God saying to be vegetarian.In fact ''anything with the breathe of life in it'' unquote:- That wouldinclude animals no doubt. It's a pretty clear statement to me.**~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to -

[Guest guest]

I didn't mean that to come out partly in large type, don't even know how it happened, sorry if it came across as shouting at you

 

Lesley

 

Lesley Dove [Lesley]18 November 2003 17:55 Subject: RE: Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003

 

That sarcasm against Simon was totally uncalled for Oliver, especially coming as it does from you as a christian to another christian. I'm not sure why you are often so mean to Simon, I've noticed it before, so what gives?

 

I'm not a christian but I understand that even in the bible humans were only given permission to eat meat after the flood, but created as vegans. No doubt god changed his mind about the status of animals at some point (!) which hardly makes him infallible anyway if the bible is the word of god, but it's not surprising the bible is so contradictory since the whole idea of there being a god is an idea created by the men (not many women) who wrote the bible and attributed to god quite simply the ideas they wanted to put across as the right ones. They no doubt thought that if they said god was on their side more people would follow their views! Sadly it seemed to work at the time of the bible because so many people were superstitious in one way or another and easily impressed by clever magicians and conjurors creating so-called miracles. These days we have Derren Brown and his ilk but we know him for what he is and he does not try to make a religion of his conjuring the way the less scrupulous ones did many years ago! Not sure about David Blaine though, I liked him better as a conjuror before he started getting weird ideas and claiming some spiritual significance behind his self-starvation.

 

As a vegan and an atheist I believe that humans create god in their own chosen image, this is why there are so many religions and even strong disagreements within religions. I don't personally feel the need to promote the idea of having god on our side or needing god's approval for our compassion for animals. We know it is right to respect other living things and that should be enough of an idea to promote as a good idea without bringing god or religion into it. It almost certainly makes it a bit harder to get ideas through to people without a religion backing you, people are so used to being told what to believe by people saying this is what god wants and we will get rewarded after this life if we do as god wants, and rejecting the notion of god also encourages people to think things out more for themselves and most people are not used to doing that. So much of religion seems to be making people good to others for the wrong reasons, ie so they get their reward in heaven or when they are reincarnated, and not because they really care about the suffering of others.

 

All this could be a load of cynical crap but I'm prepared to take the chance on the possibility of burning in hell because I think it is so unlikely there is anything for us after this life.

 

I'll get my coat..

 

Lesley

 

 

Oliver Slay [oliver]18 November 2003 14:06 Subject: RE: Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003

only because you are blinded by it ...

 

 

 

simon [simonpjones] I suppose those reading the Bible( in what ever time since written) wouldhave noted a few paragraphes into Genesis God saying to be vegetarian.In fact ''anything with the breathe of life in it'' unquote:- That wouldinclude animals no doubt. It's a pretty clear statement to me.**~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to -

[Guest guest]

i'm NO christian...

 

 

 

Lesley Dove [Lesley]

 

That sarcasm against Simon was totally uncalled for Oliver, especially coming as it does from you as a christian to another christian. I'm not sure why you are often so mean to Simon, I've noticed it before, so what gives?

 

**

[Guest guest]

No i think the Bible was written by humans to record their stories ... stories that contained some elements of fable .. some of legend ... we do it still ...

 

thus i think that the stories (written by man) of a god that created man ... was not the same god as the one that caused the flood ... and not the same one that created the world ... and not the same one that spoke to Moses ... i think the different names used for the Christian 'God' have all been cast into One Name ... thus One God ... and now we fail to be able (in English) to distinguish between these different gods with differing roles in the cosmology of ancient Judaic belief ...

 

there was no change of mind ... it was a different god that was being written about ... and probably a different story from a different time altogether...

 

so many smaller religions make a clearer difference between the Creator God ... and the Vengeful God ... Zeus and Hades ... we can't see it in Christianity because the translators have given us One Word ... God... for all the gods named ... and then said he is one God with Many Names...

 

but those names meant something to people a long time ago ... vengeance and creation ....

 

furthermore ... God saved the animals two by two ... because he was a benevolent god and so Noah and Sons Co Ltd were thus allowed to kill them to eat them ... so long as they were good humans ... and a decree was made ... that so long as humans were good then there would be no further floods ... and thus "GOODNESS" in the Bible INCLUDES 'eating animals' ... this is how the creation of the world concludes ...

 

story is ... obviously you can't do well sitting in a garden like a vegan ... cos you're just going to disobey what God says (in the end)... so let's kick you out of the garden ... and let you see how far you degrade into immoralism ... then we'll save one of each sex of each species .... kill off the rest ... (ie FIRST MASS GENOCIDE IN THE BIBLE IS AN ACT OF GOD - NOT OF MAN) ... and if you're a good boy and don't break our little promise then you won't ever get wet again ... and you can eat these animals that you saved ... as part of the deal ...

 

thus ... be good ...and eat your meat ... and there has not been any punishment since on the scale of the GREAT FLOOD ... so obviously the world is doing JUST FINE... according to god almighty ...

 

so that's the way i see it ... and therefore i cannot be Christian ... and will never be ...

 

 

 

Lesley Dove [Lesley]

 

I'm not a christian but I understand that even in the bible humans were only given permission to eat meat after the flood, but created as vegans. No doubt god changed his mind about the status of animals at some point (!) which hardly makes him infallible anyway if the bible is the word of god, but it's not surprising the bible is so contradictory since the whole idea of there being a god is an idea created by the men (not many women) who wrote the bible and attributed to god quite simply the ideas they wanted to put across as the right ones. They no doubt thought that if they said god was on their side more people would follow their views! Sadly it seemed to work at the time of the bible because so many people were superstitious in one way or another and easily impressed by clever magicians and conjurors creating so-called miracles. These days we have Derren Brown and his ilk but we know him for what he is and he does not try to make a religion of his conjuring the way the less scrupulous ones did many years ago! Not sure about David Blaine though, I liked him better as a conjuror before he started getting weird ideas and claiming some spiritual significance behind his self-starvation.

 

**

[Guest guest]

i agree about people creating god in their own image ... i'm with you all the way there...

 

my grief is hearing Simon repeat this phrase from Genesis again (after two years)... and his constant praise of this one sentence ... without ever explaining what single relevance this has for anyone ? ... considering the way things were left in the Bible was with a God being happy that humans ate meat ... after discovering that humans weren't worthy of having it all ...

 

anyhow ... no one's gonna burn ... we create our own worlds...

 

 

 

Lesley Dove [Lesley]

 

As a vegan and an atheist I believe that humans create god in their own chosen image, this is why there are so many religions and even strong disagreements within religions. I don't personally feel the need to promote the idea of having god on our side or needing god's approval for our compassion for animals. We know it is right to respect other living things and that should be enough of an idea to promote as a good idea without bringing god or religion into it. It almost certainly makes it a bit harder to get ideas through to people without a religion backing you, people are so used to being told what to believe by people saying this is what god wants and we will get rewarded after this life if we do as god wants, and rejecting the notion of god also encourages people to think things out more for themselves and most people are not used to doing that. So much of religion seems to be making people good to others for the wrong reasons, ie so they get their reward in heaven or when they are reincarnated, and not because they really care about the suffering of others.

 

All this could be a load of cynical crap but I'm prepared to take the chance on the possibility of burning in hell because I think it is so unlikely there is anything for us after this life.

 

I'll get my coat..

 

**

[Guest guest]

What's your problem?

..'I was stating what it says' to add to someone elses post.

Not talking about my beliefs.

 

 

---- Original Message -----

 

Oliver Slay

Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:05 PM

RE: Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003

 

only because you are blinded by it ...

 

 

 

simon [simonpjones] I suppose those reading the Bible( in what ever time since written) wouldhave noted a few paragraphes into Genesis God saying to be vegetarian.In fact ''anything with the breathe of life in it'' unquote:- That wouldinclude animals no doubt. It's a pretty clear statement to me.**~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to -

[Guest guest]

>

>Gospel of Matthew written in Hebrew about 41 later put into Greek,

>Luke 56-58, Mark about 60-65 and John in 98. Acts was written around

>61. Before that, plenty of eye witness reports in circulation etc.

>Also, the Pauline letters were written between 50 and 65 as well as

>those by Peter and James in the early 60's and the rest of John's

>writings in the late 90's. Jesus died spring 33, so that's not too

>far behind.=)

 

Thanks Elizabeth - I must be misinformed - I thought the gospels were

only written down around the 2nd or 3rd century.

 

Regards,

 

Paul

 

--

[Guest guest]

He could be right..but we are probably all blinded by one thing or another.

But I also think he was honest.. he would agree that the world couldn't get much better if human and animals were eating plant type foods and not eachother.

 

Regardless of your beliefs..that is what the Genesis writer has written and I accept that , not because it is in the Bible, but because I equate human + animals not eating animals can only = a Godly kind of thinking.

 

Simon

 

 

-

 

Lesley Dove

Tuesday, November 18, 2003 5:54 PM

RE: Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003

 

 

That sarcasm against Simon was totally uncalled for Oliver, especially coming as it does from you as a christian to another christian. I'm not sure why you are often so mean to Simon, I've noticed it before, so what gives?

 

I'm not a christian but I understand that even in the bible humans were only given permission to eat meat after the flood, but created as vegans. No doubt god changed his mind about the status of animals at some point (!) which hardly makes him infallible anyway if the bible is the word of god, but it's not surprising the bible is so contradictory since the whole idea of there being a god is an idea created by the men (not many women) who wrote the bible and attributed to god quite simply the ideas they wanted to put across as the right ones. They no doubt thought that if they said god was on their side more people would follow their views! Sadly it seemed to work at the time of the bible because so many people were superstitious in one way or another and easily impressed by clever magicians and conjurors creating so-called miracles. These days we have Derren Brown and his ilk but we know him for what he is and he does not try to make a religion of his conjuring the way the less scrupulous ones did many years ago! Not sure about David Blaine though, I liked him better as a conjuror before he started getting weird ideas and claiming some spiritual significance behind his self-starvation.

 

As a vegan and an atheist I believe that humans create god in their own chosen image, this is why there are so many religions and even strong disagreements within religions. I don't personally feel the need to promote the idea of having god on our side or needing god's approval for our compassion for animals. We know it is right to respect other living things and that should be enough of an idea to promote as a good idea without bringing god or religion into it. It almost certainly makes it a bit harder to get ideas through to people without a religion backing you, people are so used to being told what to believe by people saying this is what god wants and we will get rewarded after this life if we do as god wants, and rejecting the notion of god also encourages people to think things out more for themselves and most people are not used to doing that. So much of religion seems to be making people good to others for the wrong reasons, ie so they get their reward in heaven or when they are reincarnated, and not because they really care about the suffering of others.

 

All this could be a load of cynical crap but I'm prepared to take the chance on the possibility of burning in hell because I think it is so unlikely there is anything for us after this life.

 

I'll get my coat..

 

Lesley

 

 

Oliver Slay [oliver]18 November 2003 14:06 Subject: RE: Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003

only because you are blinded by it ...

 

 

 

simon [simonpjones] I suppose those reading the Bible( in what ever time since written) wouldhave noted a few paragraphes into Genesis God saying to be vegetarian.In fact ''anything with the breathe of life in it'' unquote:- That wouldinclude animals no doubt. It's a pretty clear statement to me.**~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to -

[Guest guest]

If we look at the word 'Good' and it's meaning, there can only be one 'Good way' or 'The Best Way' in any situation you could ever think of. Thats what I regard as God...I don't believe we invented what 'is good' rather it is there for us to find.

 

-

Oliver Slay

Tuesday, November 18, 2003 7:08 PM

RE: Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003

 

No i think the Bible was written by humans to record their stories ... stories that contained some elements of fable .. some of legend ... we do it still ...

 

thus i think that the stories (written by man) of a god that created man ... was not the same god as the one that caused the flood ... and not the same one that created the world ... and not the same one that spoke to Moses ... i think the different names used for the Christian 'God' have all been cast into One Name ... thus One God ... and now we fail to be able (in English) to distinguish between these different gods with differing roles in the cosmology of ancient Judaic belief ...

 

there was no change of mind ... it was a different god that was being written about ... and probably a different story from a different time altogether...

 

so many smaller religions make a clearer difference between the Creator God ... and the Vengeful God ... Zeus and Hades ... we can't see it in Christianity because the translators have given us One Word ... God... for all the gods named ... and then said he is one God with Many Names...

 

but those names meant something to people a long time ago ... vengeance and creation ....

 

furthermore ... God saved the animals two by two ... because he was a benevolent god and so Noah and Sons Co Ltd were thus allowed to kill them to eat them ... so long as they were good humans ... and a decree was made ... that so long as humans were good then there would be no further floods ... and thus "GOODNESS" in the Bible INCLUDES 'eating animals' ... this is how the creation of the world concludes ...

 

story is ... obviously you can't do well sitting in a garden like a vegan ... cos you're just going to disobey what God says (in the end)... so let's kick you out of the garden ... and let you see how far you degrade into immoralism ... then we'll save one of each sex of each species .... kill off the rest ... (ie FIRST MASS GENOCIDE IN THE BIBLE IS AN ACT OF GOD - NOT OF MAN) ... and if you're a good boy and don't break our little promise then you won't ever get wet again ... and you can eat these animals that you saved ... as part of the deal ...

 

thus ... be good ...and eat your meat ... and there has not been any punishment since on the scale of the GREAT FLOOD ... so obviously the world is doing JUST FINE... according to god almighty ...

 

so that's the way i see it ... and therefore i cannot be Christian ... and will never be ...

 

 

 

Lesley Dove [Lesley]

 

I'm not a christian but I understand that even in the bible humans were only given permission to eat meat after the flood, but created as vegans. No doubt god changed his mind about the status of animals at some point (!) which hardly makes him infallible anyway if the bible is the word of god, but it's not surprising the bible is so contradictory since the whole idea of there being a god is an idea created by the men (not many women) who wrote the bible and attributed to god quite simply the ideas they wanted to put across as the right ones. They no doubt thought that if they said god was on their side more people would follow their views! Sadly it seemed to work at the time of the bible because so many people were superstitious in one way or another and easily impressed by clever magicians and conjurors creating so-called miracles. These days we have Derren Brown and his ilk but we know him for what he is and he does not try to make a religion of his conjuring the way the less scrupulous ones did many years ago! Not sure about David Blaine though, I liked him better as a conjuror before he started getting weird ideas and claiming some spiritual significance behind his self-starvation.**~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to -

[Guest guest]

My grief is..Such a straight forward statement as the phrase I quoted needs to be expained.

-

 

Oliver Slay

Tuesday, November 18, 2003 7:11 PM

RE: Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003

 

i agree about people creating god in their own image ... i'm with you all the way there...

 

my grief is hearing Simon repeat this phrase from Genesis again (after two years)... and his constant praise of this one sentence ... without ever explaining what single relevance this has for anyone ? ... considering the way things were left in the Bible was with a God being happy that humans ate meat ... after discovering that humans weren't worthy of having it all ...

 

anyhow ... no one's gonna burn ... we create our own worlds...

 

 

 

Lesley Dove [Lesley]

 

As a vegan and an atheist I believe that humans create god in their own chosen image, this is why there are so many religions and even strong disagreements within religions. I don't personally feel the need to promote the idea of having god on our side or needing god's approval for our compassion for animals. We know it is right to respect other living things and that should be enough of an idea to promote as a good idea without bringing god or religion into it. It almost certainly makes it a bit harder to get ideas through to people without a religion backing you, people are so used to being told what to believe by people saying this is what god wants and we will get rewarded after this life if we do as god wants, and rejecting the notion of god also encourages people to think things out more for themselves and most people are not used to doing that. So much of religion seems to be making people good to others for the wrong reasons, ie so they get their reward in heaven or when they are reincarnated, and not because they really care about the suffering of others.

 

All this could be a load of cynical crap but I'm prepared to take the chance on the possibility of burning in hell because I think it is so unlikely there is anything for us after this life.

 

I'll get my coat..**~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to -

[Guest guest]

>If we look at the word 'Good' and it's meaning, there can only be

>one 'Good way' or 'The Best Way' in any situation you could ever

>think of.

 

This is complete nonsense, aka moral absolutism.

 

There is no objective " good " or " bad " - it's all subjective. What may

be good for one person may be bad for another.

 

Don't they teach anything useful in schools these days ?

 

Paul

 

--

[Guest guest]

, " simon " <simonpjones@o...> wrote:

> I suppose those reading the Bible( in what ever time since written)

would

> have noted a few paragraphes into Genesis God saying to be

vegetarian.

> In fact ''anything with the breathe of life in it'' unquote:- That

would

> include animals no doubt. It's a pretty clear statement to me.

>

 

Yes, it certainly is and a vegan, probably raw vegan, diet is indeed

the natural diet of humans. However, owing to the fact that most of

the vegetation had just been destroyed post-flood and probably to

prcent it becoming too much of an issue, (I think God knew what was

coming!!!), he widened the diet to include certain animals. Before

then, humans were still using animal products - ie skins too.

 

Of course, the Bible, (in Genesis 9:3), doesn't say exactly WHY

included animals etc in the diet, the above is just my understanding

of it.

 

Hugs,

 

Elisabeth=)

[Guest guest]

, " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote:

 

> That sarcasm against Simon was totally uncalled for Oliver,

 

Yes, I thought so too!

 

> I'm not a christian but I understand that even in the bible humans

were only

> given permission to eat meat after the flood, but created as

vegans. No

> doubt god changed his mind about the status of animals at some

point (!)

> which hardly makes him infallible anyway if the bible is the word

of god,

> but it's not surprising the bible is so contradictory

 

I've read it several times in a few translations and never found so

much as one real contradiction. I have met a few people who

*haven't* read it who like to say it does though......=)

> All this could be a load of cynical crap but I'm prepared to take

the chance

> on the possibility of burning in hell because I think it is so

unlikely

> there is anything for us after this life.

 

Oh, I shouldn't lose any sleep over that one as, whilst we're on the

topic of what the Bible does and doesn't say, hell is NOT a Bible

doctrine!

 

Hugs,

 

Elisabeth=)

[Guest guest]

That's just your opinion though, no need for the sarcasm. Why are some people so nasty on here, this is the nice list or so I thought!

 

If you don't accept moral absolutes, how can you then believe the equally absolute belief that everything is subjective, you are obviously very certain this is always the case from your attitude to Simon, so you fall into the same trap you accuse him of falling into, but maybe some things are always good and others always bad and then there may be other things that are neutral or sometimes good and sometimes bad. Either way you are being pretty dogmatic in being against the idea of there being some moral absolutes.

 

With or without religion we need some system of values to live by! I don't think some moral absolutes are necessarily a bad thing.

 

I can easily think of several things that are bad for everyone besides.

 

Lesley

 

 

Paul Russell [prussell]18 November 2003 22:45 Subject: Re: Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003>If we look at the word 'Good' and it's meaning, there can only be >one 'Good way' or 'The Best Way' in any situation you could ever >think of.This is complete nonsense, aka moral absolutism.There is no objective "good" or "bad" - it's all subjective. What may be good for one person may be bad for another.Don't they teach anything useful in schools these days ?Paul-- ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to -

[Guest guest]

but what is 'good' for one person ... is often 'bad' for another ... it's purely subjective... and we can project our own subjective world to the greatest heights and create for ourselves a personal Ultimate Good ... God ...

 

but that God will not work for everybody ... because it is not a projection of my 'good' ... therefore i will fail in the eyes of your God ... and i will be branded as evil ... ...

 

do you see how this controls the weak, the poor... ? because those in power .. the Priests ... created a God in their image... and projected onto a poor and weak people ... who had to repent for not being in the image of that God ... ?

 

and my problem .. is that 'what you mean' what you 'just want to say' ... is more than that ... you want us to agree with you ... to join you ... in loving your God ... with your God's Reason ... and we simply can't

 

 

 

simon [simonpjones]

If we look at the word 'Good' and it's meaning, there can only be one 'Good way' or 'The Best Way' in any situation you could ever think of. Thats what I regard as God...I don't believe we invented what 'is good' rather it is there for us to find.

 

**

[Guest guest]

in my school ... i hadn't read your reply before i wrote mine ... snap! as we say ...

 

 

 

Paul Russell [prussell] There is no objective "good" or "bad" - it's all subjective. What may be good for one person may be bad for another.Don't they teach anything useful in schools these days ?

 

**

[Guest guest]

because there is a history to it that is not from this list and my comment was out of place on this list and should have been kept to the list to which it belongs ...

 

for which i apologise...

 

 

 

Elisabeth Braun [elisabeth.braun] , "Lesley Dove" <Lesley@v...> wrote:> That sarcasm against Simon was totally uncalled for Oliver, Yes, I thought so too!

 

**

[Guest guest]

I guess that would be the list I am banned from, the not so nice list, apparently I'm too nasty for them on there!

 

Lesley

 

 

Oliver Slay [oliver]19 November 2003 11:01 Subject: RE: Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003

because there is a history to it that is not from this list and my comment was out of place on this list and should have been kept to the list to which it belongs ...

 

for which i apologise...

 

 

 

Elisabeth Braun [elisabeth.braun] , "Lesley Dove" <Lesley@v...> wrote:> That sarcasm against Simon was totally uncalled for Oliver, Yes, I thought so too!**~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to -

[Guest guest]

>

>That's just your opinion though, no need for the sarcasm. Why are

>some people so nasty on here, this is the nice list or so I thought!

>

 

Where was the sarcasm ? Are you thinking of someone else's posts or

just " projecting " ?

 

>If you don't accept moral absolutes, how can you then believe the

>equally absolute belief that everything is subjective, you are

>obviously very certain this is always the case from your attitude to

>Simon, so you fall into the same trap you accuse him of falling

>into, but maybe some things are always good and others always bad

>and then there may be other things that are neutral or sometimes

>good and sometimes bad. Either way you are being pretty dogmatic in

>being against the idea of there being some moral absolutes.

>

 

If you want to deal in absolutes then you can't get any further than

" I think, therefore I am " . This is not particularly useful, so we

base our beliefs on subjective observations and probabilities.

Morality is a purely subjective framework which we as a society

construct - it has no real meaning outside the context of our society

(or at least any given human society), and it certainly has no

absolutes. " Good " and " bad " are purely subjective, emotional human

constructs. To try and define good and bad in any absolute terms is

meaningless.

 

>With or without religion we need some system of values to live by! I

>don't think some moral absolutes are necessarily a bad thing.

>

 

Moral absolutes, like Newtonian mechanics, can indeed serve a

purpose, when they are simple to express and generally applicable to

the large majority of cases, even though they may not be universally

valid. But once we accept them as absolutes, e.g. as in the case of

religion, we cross the line from ethics into dogma, and this enforced

morality then starts to become misapplied.

 

>I can easily think of several things that are bad for everyone besides.

>

 

I can probably just as easily think of exceptions to any that you can

come up with.

 

Paul

 

--

[Guest guest]

>

>a vegan, probably raw vegan, diet is indeed

>the natural diet of humans.

 

Only if you believe raw foodist propaganda. Humans have been eating

cooked food for at least 250,000 years, and possibly for more than

1,000,000 years. There's nothing inherently " natural " about a vegan

diet for humans either - in their natural state humans are versatile

omnivores and scavengers and will eat whatever is available when they

are hungry.

 

Paul

 

--

[Guest guest]

>in my school ... i hadn't read your reply before i wrote mine ...

>snap! as we say ...

>

 

Great minds think alike (or something)... ;-)

 

Paul

 

" A mind is like a parachute - it works best when it's open "

 

--

[Guest guest]

-

" Paul Russell " <prussell

 

Tuesday, November 18, 2003 10:45 PM

Re: Re: An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2003

 

 

> >If we look at the word 'Good' and it's meaning, there can only be

> >one 'Good way' or 'The Best Way' in any situation you could ever

> >think of.

>

> This is complete nonsense, aka moral absolutism.

>

> There is no objective " good " or " bad " - it's all subjective. What may

> be good for one person may be bad for another.>

 

You said it!

Of course when something is good for one person it is not bad...equally when

the same is bad for another it is not good is it?

 

In my opinion I can't see how good and bad can be subjective.. if you were

to treat them as a science they can only be objective.

 

Simon

 

>

> --

>

>

> ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author,

> there may be another side to the story you have not heard.

> ---------------------------

> Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>

> Un: send a blank message to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

So it is good for us that Bush is having a good time becoming rich and exploiting the oil of other countries that he has bombed and destroyed? ... ok .. i can't really see the good in that for the Iraqis ... but i can see how the american president, owner of oil companies and oil-derivative companies and all his cronies and their multimillion businesses they own ... i can see how they think it is a good thing ...

 

so apply what you have written below to this world situation ... and see how objective good isn't ....

 

 

 

 

simon [simonpjones] > This is complete nonsense, aka moral absolutism.>> There is no objective "good" or "bad" - it's all subjective. What may> be good for one person may be bad for another.>You said it!Of course when something is good for one person it is not bad...equally whenthe same is bad for another it is not good is it?In my opinion I can't see how good and bad can be subjective.. if you wereto treat them as a science they can only be objective.

 

**