How far do you take your ethics?

[Guest guest]

Also, dogs are not obligate carnivores, and in fact need more plant material in

their diets than popular meat brands contain...also, both cat and dog food

contain entirely too much protein for either species and whether one feeds

vegan or non-vegan food, one should make sure that the food contains " human-

grade " ingredients...for safety of their pet...

 

 

Quoting mavreela <nec.lists:

 

> > I know that people would prefer for this list to remain free of

> > controversy, so i'll leave it there.

>

> That being because this is the lovey-dovey singey-songy list of course.

> That was flippancy.

>

> Seriously people can disagree and argue all they like, it's only the

> way that it is done of which you need to be wary. If every agreed and

> then it would be a boring list (I know I'm asking for it by saying

> that) and an utterly pointless one.

>

> As to the actual matter at hand. I completely agree that swpgh01 is a

> hypocrite for claiming that vegan cat foods are unnatural while buying

> equally unnatural processed tinned foods. I do hope he/she appreciates

> the irony as much as you and I do.

>

> Also I can't help but notice the contradiction in swgph01's argument

> (does he/she have a name?) that he/she does not want to force his/her

> beliefs on any creature while sanctioning that some creatures are

> killed in order to satisfy their belief that not only is it right to

> have a cat (companion animal or pet, I'm not bothered in the semantics)

> but to force on it a particular diet because it satisfies their own

> beliefs in the way cats should be fed. Beliefs are being forced on the

> creatures being killed in order to produce the cat food, and on the cat

> in deciding what the cat eats.

>

> The issue of vegan cat (or dog...) foods is a difficult one and can

> easily go both ways, vegan food is more unnatural than traditional pet

> foods (which though less natural are still unnatural of course), while

> on the other hand there is the argument that you have already put the

> cat in an unnatural domesticated position and so feeding it a

> traditional pet food does not redress that balance while at the same

> timemaking things worse for all those who are killed for the sake of

> the pet food.

>

> If anything I would say that swgph01 is being naïve in thinking that

> there is a clear ethical decision here, when although it looks like one

> (the forcing of a very unnatural diet onto a cat) it ignores the key

> fact of their already unnatural position.

>

> Michael

> Logical analysis of arguments comes free

>

>

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[Guest guest]

-

<shawnam

 

Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:40 PM

Re: How far do you take your ethics?

 

Do you have any pet dogs or cats on a vegan diet?

 

Simon

 

 

> Also, dogs are not obligate carnivores, and in fact need more plant

material in

> their diets than popular meat brands contain...also, both cat and dog food

> contain entirely too much protein for either species and whether one feeds

> vegan or non-vegan food, one should make sure that the food contains

" human-

> grade " ingredients...for safety of their pet...

>

[Guest guest]

No, not fully...one of my dogs and one of my cats have allergies to many

different animal AND plant foods...my cats eat Wellness low-allergen diet and

my Dogs do eat Evolution vegan pet food mixed in with a low-allergen Wellness

dog diet...they all love certain fruits such as pineapple and cateloupe...one

dog loves oranges and bananas...and the other likes carrots...but, thus far my

cat has been allergic to both VeggieCat kibble and supplements, and to

Evolution foods...and it is severe allergy...deterioration of the skin around

her mouth...and my dog loses hair w/ certain ingredients...on the Wellness,

they are all very healthy...so for now, that's where they stay. I am a

preveterinary student and have been studying quite a bit on food allergens,

nutrition needs, etc. in my own time...I think a vegan diet can work for most

animals w/o health issues...The foods I feed my dogs are not cruelty

free...fish die for both of them...which is not right in many ways...

 

I've only been vegan myself for 3 months...and I've got a lot to learn on all

fronts...I was vegetarian for 4 years or so before that...

 

 

 

 

 

Quoting simonpjones <simonpjones:

 

>

> -

> <shawnam

>

> Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:40 PM

> Re: How far do you take your ethics?

>

> Do you have any pet dogs or cats on a vegan diet?

>

> Simon

>

>

> > Also, dogs are not obligate carnivores, and in fact need more plant

> material in

> > their diets than popular meat brands contain...also, both cat and dog food

> > contain entirely too much protein for either species and whether one feeds

> > vegan or non-vegan food, one should make sure that the food contains

> " human-

> > grade " ingredients...for safety of their pet...

> >

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Whether you give your pets a meat-based diet or a vegan diet, you're forcing your beliefs either way. Best way (although it's fairly teasing I know) is to put both both types down and see which the cat goes for. Their choice then. And if you feel bad for taking the one he doesn't choose away, then give him a second dose of the first.

 

That's my contribution to the topic! lol.

 

<3

Shari Black Velvet

 

 

-

Kat

Tuesday, March 25, 2003 9:48 PM

Re: How far do you take your ethics?

I don't want to engage in too heated a debate, but you are already forcing your beliefs of domestication on your cat(s) by keeping them in the first place and by feeding them, i assume, a diet of rendered animals which are not their natural prey in the first place. Fair enough if you allow them to catch their own food. Otherwise, you're a bit of a hypocrite.I just sense that you're being confrontational about this. Perhaps, i'm on the defensive, but i sensed a bit of flippancy from you. If i have misconstrued, i apologise. I know that people would prefer for this list to remain free of controversy, so i'll leave it there.k@On Tuesday, Mar 25, 2003, at 17:23 Europe/London, swpgh01 wrote:

Hi back,Thanks for the offer, but the other half of the statement is that it is their natural diet and I do not want to force my beliefs / views on any creature.> Hey, there -->>Veggiepet does, indeed, contain taurine. As a matter of fact, it's the>same sort of synthetic taurine that is used in most commercial pet>foods. You see, by the time that the not-fit-for-human-consumption>animal-by-products have gone through the rendering process, little of>the inherent taurine remains. Therefore, synthetic taurine is added>during the production process of the pet food.>>I won't try to convince you to feed your cats a vegan diet, but if you>find yourself curious at all, there's plenty of reading that i could>suggest. I'd also be willing to answer any questions regarding my>decision, but i don't want to bore the list. If you want to e-mail me>privately, carry on. >>Cheers,>k@>On Saturday, Mar 22, 2003, at 14:52 Europe/London, swpgh01wrote:>>> Hi,> Id just like to say that I am still not convinced on this whole> subject of feeding cats veggiecat. I have two rejects turned loveable> monsters and even though I am vegan, do their hunting for them in the> supermarket for the body parts that they are too lazy to kill> themselves. I still belive that cats physiologically need taurine, but> if vegiecat contains taurine then more power to its elbow.> Basically judge me if you like , but I will not force my beliefs or> views on any living creature.> > Hi Kat, just wanted to say thanks for that advice. I really need to> have a look at this vegan.store and just keep experimenting at> intervals with recipes and vegecat. My cats will nibble on wee bits of> cheesly, little nori sheets and engevita but all together with a> vegekit receipe, they turn their noses up. Pants is a great name and> your dogs sound great for their ages. Take care.Peter H--------------------talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com<image.tiff>

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[Guest guest]

 

-

Shari

Wednesday, March 26, 2003 3:58 PM

Re: How far do you take your ethics?

 

 

.. Best way (although it's fairly teasing I know) is to put both both types down and see which the cat goes for. Their choice then. And if you feel bad for taking the one he doesn't choose away, then give him a second dose of the first.

 

That's my contribution to the topic! lol.

 

<3

Shari Black Velvet>

 

 

It's a pity humans don't give that type of choice to babies and children.

 

Simon

 

-

Kat

Tuesday, March 25, 2003 9:48 PM

Re: How far do you take your ethics?

I don't want to engage in too heated a debate, but you are already forcing your beliefs of domestication on your cat(s) by keeping them in the first place and by feeding them, i assume, a diet of rendered animals which are not their natural prey in the first place. Fair enough if you allow them to catch their own food. Otherwise, you're a bit of a hypocrite.I just sense that you're being confrontational about this. Perhaps, i'm on the defensive, but i sensed a bit of flippancy from you. If i have misconstrued, i apologise. I know that people would prefer for this list to remain free of controversy, so i'll leave it there.k@On Tuesday, Mar 25, 2003, at 17:23 Europe/London, swpgh01 wrote:

Hi back,Thanks for the offer, but the other half of the statement is that it is their natural diet and I do not want to force my beliefs / views on any creature.> Hey, there -->>Veggiepet does, indeed, contain taurine. As a matter of fact, it's the>same sort of synthetic taurine that is used in most commercial pet>foods. You see, by the time that the not-fit-for-human-consumption>animal-by-products have gone through the rendering process, little of>the inherent taurine remains. Therefore, synthetic taurine is added>during the production process of the pet food.>>I won't try to convince you to feed your cats a vegan diet, but if you>find yourself curious at all, there's plenty of reading that i could>suggest. I'd also be willing to answer any questions regarding my>decision, but i don't want to bore the list. If you want to e-mail me>privately, carry on. >>Cheers,>k@>On Saturday, Mar 22, 2003, at 14:52 Europe/London, swpgh01wrote:>>> Hi,> Id just like to say that I am still not convinced on this whole> subject of feeding cats veggiecat. I have two rejects turned loveable> monsters and even though I am vegan, do their hunting for them in the> supermarket for the body parts that they are too lazy to kill> themselves. I still belive that cats physiologically need taurine, but> if vegiecat contains taurine then more power to its elbow.> Basically judge me if you like , but I will not force my beliefs or> views on any living creature.> > Hi Kat, just wanted to say thanks for that advice. I really need to> have a look at this vegan.store and just keep experimenting at> intervals with recipes and vegecat. My cats will nibble on wee bits of> cheesly, little nori sheets and engevita but all together with a> vegekit receipe, they turn their noses up. Pants is a great name and> your dogs sound great for their ages. Take care.Peter H--------------------talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com<image.tiff>

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[Guest guest]

-

" Angie Wright " <angiewright

 

Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:46 PM

RE: How far do you take your ethics?

 

Have tried giving them a choice?

 

 

 

 

>

>

> swpgh01 [swpgh01]

> 22 March 2003 14:52

> ;

> Re: How far do you take your ethics?

>

>

>

> Hi,

> Id just like to say that I am still not convinced on this whole subject

> of feeding cats veggiecat. I have two rejects turned loveable monsters

> and even though I am vegan, do their hunting for them in the supermarket

> for the body parts that they are too lazy to kill themselves. I still

> belive that cats physiologically need taurine, but if vegiecat contains

> taurine then more power to its elbow. Basically judge me if you like ,

> but I will not force my beliefs or views on any living creature.

> >

>

> ---

>

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release 27/01/2003

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

> So what do you think pet dogs & cats should be fed, do you think they

> should

> be encourgaged back into the wild?

 

As you asked... yes. We should stop domesticating animals, but for

those who are currently domesticated and need us to look after them

then we should do so as we (humans, not you and I) forced this

dependency on them.

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

>> Best way (although it's fairly teasing I know) is to put both both

>> types down and see which the cat goes for. Their choice then.

> It's a pity humans don't give that type of choice to babies and

> children.

 

You mean to choose between animal based and vegan cat foods? Simon,

how could you.

 

By the way, remember to snip!

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

-

" mavreela " <nec.lists

 

Wednesday, March 26, 2003 10:24 PM

Re: How far do you take your ethics?

 

 

 

 

I only ment that for those who are bent on feeding pets other animals,

personally I wouldn't and wouldn;t encourage others to if it wasn't going to

promote non-animal foods. As I've met a few vegan-diet dogs it's encouraging

to know the proof is there.

As you know I would encourage us humans stopping animals eating eachother,

If we truely want to have compassion on them.

 

Simon

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Spoken like a true rightist, Mav. I'm agreeing with you!

 

Thanks for articulating things so clearly and rationally. I'm not so

adept at that.

 

k@

On Wednesday, Mar 26, 2003, at 21:21 Europe/London, mavreela wrote:

 

> > So what do you think pet dogs & cats should be fed, do you think they

> > should

> > be encourgaged back into the  wild?

>

> As you asked... yes.  We should stop domesticating animals, but for

> those who are currently domesticated and need us to look after them

> then we should do so as we (humans, not you and I) forced this

> dependency on them.

>

> Michael

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

 

-

 

Thursday, March 27, 2003 9:20 PM

Re: How far do you take your ethics?

 

 

As you asked... yes. We should stop domesticating animals, but forthose who are currently domesticated and need us to look after themthen we should do so as we (humans, not you and I) forced this dependency on them.Michael>

 

 

It would be a pretty sad situation if we/humans lost our companionship with animals.

And a mockery to so called animal-lover to allow the unnecessary killing of animals.

 

Simon

<image.tiff>

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[Guest guest]

Michael,

The name is Peter by the way. Hope you are well. I am glad that I have started

people thinking about this subject with my original message. It is nice that you

have put your reply in such a way, and not resorted to name calling (unlike

others). I am possibly naive, however, no-one is perfect, and we are all

entitled to our own beleifs/opinions. Without sounding defensive, My cats are

free to go whenever/wherever they please, they were both rescued as kittens and

one would surely have died had I not intervened. As far as I am concerned the

tinned meat is closer to their natural diet than dried mixture. They have my

best intentions at all times and I try and look after them as well as I am able.

Yours or anyone elses opinion of me is not that important to me as their

wellbeing.

I have been called flipant in other correspondence, well if thats what it takes

to get people to think about moral issues rather than using this site just to

send birthday wishes or recipies, then maybe its not a bad thing.Now back to

being flipant.........Hang losse brother!

>

 

Peter H

 

--------------------

talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at

http://www.talk21.com

[Guest guest]

I`m with you on this one!

Pete H.

>

 

Peter H

 

--------------------

talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at

http://www.talk21.com

[Guest guest]

I prefer to see it as saved their lives , in my case, not forcing this life upon

them. Hm semantics!

Pete H.

>

 

Peter H

 

--------------------

talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at

http://www.talk21.com

[Guest guest]

>  It would be a pretty sad situation if we/humans lost our

> companionship with animals.

 

No one is stopping you sitting in a field and watching the birds, why

does companionship mean putting in a cage/tank/basket under the sink?

 

> And a mockery to so called animal-lover to allow the unnecessary

> killing of animals.

 

I assume you mean by letting a cat eat a bird for example. Simon,

you're mad and have no authority to talk on behalf of other

animal-lovers, very few people agree with you on that point, very few

indeed. The simple fact is that by preventing an another animals to

act naturally you are just as guilty as for allowing the animal cruelty

by another animal. For you it is catch-22, you are damned either way.

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

-

" mavreela " <nec.lists

 

Sunday, March 30, 2003 11:45 AM

Re: How far do you take your ethics?

 

 

<I assume you mean by letting a cat eat a bird for example. Simon,

you're mad and have no authority to talk on behalf of other

animal-lovers, very few people agree with you on that point, very few

indeed.>

------------

Maybe Animal-lover is the wrong term to use.

Maybe we/people should be more specific in which animals we mean when

expressing our love for them.

And you have no authority to use slanderous terms to judge somebody just

because you don't agree or understand thier opinions >

------

 

The simple fact is that by preventing an another animals to act naturally

you are just as guilty as for allowing the animal cruelty

by another animal. For you it is catch-22, you are damned either way.>

 

Not if animals were fed plant based foods, I sure plant- foods for the

wilder animal could be prepared in such a way that they could get the

nutrients they need and enjoy their lives as well, not forgetting animals

can learn to adapt to different ways of living and animals live in a lets

call it a 'domesticated setting' live longer lives.

 

I'm not sure how many dom-dogs/cats and how many wild dogs/cats there are in

this world.

But if the doms were fed plant foods they might out number their wilder

cousins.

 

Simon

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

> And you have no authority to use slanderous terms to judge somebody

> just

> because you don't agree or understand thier opinions

 

Simon I fully understand your position, and I do have the authority to

say that I think you are mad because I am expressing my own beliefs.

You could of course argue whether that belief is right, but not over my

authority to report it, unless you are an extreme behaviourist I

suppose in which case we all have equal authority to report each others

beliefs and you then could contest whether I do truly believe that.

But I do understand your opinion, I've read it often enough and feel

I'm in a position to make a determination on you. If you want to call

me mad for any of my beliefs feel free, I'm open to having them

questioned.

 

>> For you it is catch-22, you are damned either way.

> Not if animals were fed plant based foods, I sure plant- foods for the

> wilder animal could be prepared in such a way that they could get the

> nutrients they need and enjoy their lives as well, not forgetting

> animals

> can learn to adapt to different ways of living

 

If they are going to learn that leave them alone and let them learn on

their own. If they evolve to become vegan then so-be-it, if not then

you should let them live as carnivores and omnivores. You wouldn't

though, would you? The question isn't about nutrients or evolution, it

is about you forcing, teaching, conditioning them to be something which

matches what are only your beliefs, and that is the catch-22. If you

truly believe in the interests of animals then you would not want to

force them to be something they are not. Do nothing you let other

animals get killed for food, do something you are forcing your beliefs

on them and conditioning them in a way which bets suits your own world

view. You can't win Simon, you're damned either way.

 

> animals live in a lets

> call it a 'domesticated setting' live longer lives.

 

Quality or quantity? Why is living a longer life a better thing?

Surely quality of life is more important than quantity? That's a whole

big bag of assumptions you are making there. And it applies to humans

as much as other animals.

 

> I'm not sure how many dom-dogs/cats and how many wild dogs/cats there

> are in

> this world. But if the doms were fed plant foods they might out

> number their wilder

> cousins.

 

And if more people supported the war in Iraq it would be morally right.

And if more people were racist and homophobic then it would be

acceptable. Is this the point you are trying to make?

 

I really don't see that you are offering anything other than a

tautology " if x > y then x > y " kind of speaks for itself [1]. I

really think you should get a dictionary and lookup " naturalistic

fallacy " before using that line of argument [2]. To put it basically

it says that you cannot argue from what is to what should be, my

examples above should illustrate this.

 

Michael

 

[1] Yes I know that you can get into pedantic logical arguments over

whether the 'then' should be an 'equals' and whether that is actually a

true fact but I also think I'm the only person here who knows what I am

saying.

 

[2] Although whether a naturalistic fallacy is a fallacy can also be

debated.

[Guest guest]

i feel similarly about the Iraqi people...

 

simonpjones [simonpjones]

Thu 27/03/2003 22:16

Cc:

Re: How far do you take your ethics?

 

 

It would be a pretty sad situation if we/humans lost our companionship with

animals.

And a mockery to so called animal-lover to allow the unnecessary killing of

animals.

 

Simon

[Guest guest]

i don't agree that Simon is mad ... i think he is merely so deluded that he is

trapped in his own world without the key to let himself out.... and that

which he is searching for in these endless questions is to be saved by someone

(by God or Jesus BECAUSE these fictitious characters will never save him and

really his subconscious mind does not want to be free at the same time as

wanting to be free)... or by an answer to his question to free him from this

repetitious drivel that he is forcing us to eat despite the fact that we don't

want to eat it ... and yet when we tell him we don't want to eat it he doesn't

listen... and when we tell him the answer he doesn't listen either...

 

so tell us Simon ... what are you avoiding by asking this drivelous question?

feelings of disempowerment?

 

cos if i had to choose between eating what you are dishing out and going

somewhere else ... i would choose to go somewhere else... and i'll no doubt be

following a lot of other animals...

 

funny how the world that some people want (Simon, Bush) is a world that will

alienate them...

 

 

mavreela [nec.lists]

Sun 30/03/2003 14:28

Cc:

Re: How far do you take your ethics?

 

 

 

Simon I fully understand your position, and I do have the authority to

say that I think you are mad because I am expressing my own beliefs.

You could of course argue whether that belief is right, but not over my

authority to report it, unless you are an extreme behaviourist I

suppose in which case we all have equal authority to report each others

beliefs and you then could contest whether I do truly believe that.

But I do understand your opinion, I've read it often enough and feel

I'm in a position to make a determination on you. If you want to call

me mad for any of my beliefs feel fre

[Guest guest]

natural taurine comes from the bile of a cow ...

 

synthetic taurine comes from an over-developed country's over-developed

pharmaceutical industry....

 

 

swpgh01 [swpgh01]

Tue 25/03/2003 17:13

Cc:

Re: How far do you take your ethics?

 

 

Taurine is a substance neccessary to all felines , and only occurs naturally in

fleshy bits!

> I know I'm probably thick but what is taurine? Where does it come from?

>

<3

>Shari Blac

[Guest guest]

Perhaps he's a social misfit -------shame Too many vegans already fit

into that catagory -----not me of course !!!!

 

 

Oliver Slay [oliver]

31 March 2003 05:26

 

RE: How far do you take your ethics?

 

 

i don't agree that Simon is mad ... i think he is merely so deluded that he

is trapped in his own world without the key to let himself out.... and

that which he is searching for in these endless questions is to be saved by

someone (by God or Jesus BECAUSE these fictitious characters will never save

him and really his subconscious mind does not want to be free at the same

time as wanting to be free)... or by an answer to his question to free him

from this repetitious drivel that he is forcing us to eat despite the fact

that we don't want to eat it ... and yet when we tell him we don't want to

eat it he doesn't listen... and when we tell him the answer he doesn't

listen either...

 

 

 

 

---

 

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Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release 27/01/2003

[Guest guest]

I wonder if any veggie Iraqis' have or will be killed.

-

" Oliver Slay " <oliver

 

Monday, March 31, 2003 4:06 AM

RE: How far do you take your ethics?

 

 

> i feel similarly about the Iraqi people...

>

>

> simonpjones [simonpjones]

> Thu 27/03/2003 22:16

>

> Cc:

> Re: How far do you take your ethics?

>

>

> It would be a pretty sad situation if we/humans lost our companionship

with animals.

> And a mockery to so called animal-lover to allow the unnecessary killing

of animals.

>

> Simon

>

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[Guest guest]

-

" Oliver Slay " <oliver

 

Monday, March 31, 2003 5:26 AM

RE: How far do you take your ethics?

 

 

so tell us Simon ... what are you avoiding by asking this drivelous

question? feelings of disempowerment?

 

>I'm just someone who has a belief that not-many would disagree with in a

ideal world. But the differents is I believe it will be a reality and

we/humans will play a bigger part in it in the future.

I certainly don't want to insult anyone but it's truth that when a truth

that is not widely accepted is put in to the equation, people will hit out

against it.

 

Simon

 

 

 

 

>

> funny how the world that some people want (Simon, Bush) is a world that

will alienate them...

>

>

>

> mavreela [nec.lists]

> Sun 30/03/2003 14:28

>

> Cc:

> Re: How far do you take your ethics?

>

>

>

> Simon I fully understand your position, and I do have the authority to

> say that I think you are mad because I am expressing my own beliefs.

> You could of course argue whether that belief is right, but not over my

> authority to report it, unless you are an extreme behaviourist I

> suppose in which case we all have equal authority to report each others

> beliefs and you then could contest whether I do truly believe that.

> But I do understand your opinion, I've read it often enough and feel

> I'm in a position to make a determination on you. If you want to call

> me mad for any of my beliefs feel fre

>

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[Guest guest]

> I wonder if any veggie Iraqis' have or will be killed.

 

Would it make any difference to anything?

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

i disagree that you are 'just someone who has a belief' .... i think you are probably a lot more than that ... but we don't get to see all that ... we are blinded by this dull repetition of your beliefs which nearly all of us disagree with ....

 

so why not talk about the real world and less about your beliefs in an 'IDEAL' world ... one that IDEALLY you would like to exist but one that DOESN'T. which merely becomes your dream or wish...

 

i am not hitting out at your specific belief ... i've already done that... you won't insult anyone... but listening to your dreams is terribly tiresome when in the real world the major fundamentalist Christian superpower has just invaded a Muslim nation with the intention of occupying it because their previous pupper leader (S. Hussein) will no longer play ball and the opposition (Kurds, Shi-ites) to the puppet are bigger threats than the puppet (for the superpower)... your dreams will not change the imperialist nature of the present US administration... and the threat of their military domination of the middle east....

 

 

 

simonpjones [simonpjones] >I'm just someone who has a belief that not-many would disagree with in aideal world. But the differents is I believe it will be a reality andwe/humans will play a bigger part in it in the future.I certainly don't want to insult anyone but it's truth that when a truththat is not widely accepted is put in to the equation, people will hit outagainst it.Simon