Jump to content
IndiaDivine.org

Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

Rate this topic


Guest guest

Recommended Posts

Hi Jason,

 

I know you are correct in explaining your understanding of stomach acid and

digestion. Could you please take a moment and explain how we can differentiate

between hypo and hyper chlorhydria?

 

Thanks,

Michael

 

 

-

Saturday, February 09, 2008 9:38 AM

[sPAM] RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

Medicinal

 

 

Michael,

 

I appreciate your free thinking on these issues. However, I think if you are

making claims that a medicinal (wu mei or any other) does this or that, it

should be rooted in some source somewhere. This speaks to the larger problem

that I feel is ramped in this country. This discussion aside, I think the

last thing our profession needs in free-thinking when the majority of people

barely know the basics, but that is another issue.

 

More importantly, you made the statement that wu mei neutralizes (reduces)

stomach acid. I ask again, do you have a source for this? Or maybe you could

explain how your below statement relates to wu mei and the function you

ascribe to it.

 

As it stands your below (yin and yang) statement seems physiologically

confusing and over-simplified.

 

For example, the stomach contents must be acidic to digest foods. You want a

low pH (very acidic) when you eat, pH of 1 is great! GERD USUALLY happens

from lack of stomach acid production (hypochlorhydria). This in turn creates

a relatively alkaline environment (from what it should be), and the

contents, specifically proteins, are unable to properly digest. This

environment is still acidic though. Consequently, the proteins putrefy and

ferment and in turn cause a very acid environment. This looks like your

stomach produced too much acid, but it did not. This acid rises up and

causes GERD(1). Of course not all cases of GERD are from hypochlorhydria,

some are from actually hyperchlorhydria, therefore and one must

differentiate. This yin and yang dance has many permutations.

 

Therefore, what is meant by " acid content is greater than the alkaline

lining " ???

 

One can see how taking antacids will help the condition but do little for

treating the problem. However I am having a hard time understanding how your

yin and yang model works. Could you explain?

 

-

 

References:

 

(1) Kharrazian, Datis (2005). Functional Blood Chemistry Analysis.

 

_____

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Friday, February 08, 2008 10:46 PM

RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

My thinking about it is that the contents of the stomach is acid but the

lining is alkaline. The yin and yang of it is that if the acid content is

greater than the alkaline lining -- the result is GERD or ulcers. Michael

Tierra

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Al Stone

Friday, February 08, 2008 8:31 PM

@ <%40>

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

2008/2/8 <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com>:

 

> Finally, to throw a wrinkle into the thinking, the commonly used wa leng

> zi

> and wu zei gu, are said to inhibit and promote stomach acid, depending on

> the author. Maybe they do both.

>

 

I think of these shell (and bone) herbs as working with the same mechanisms

of over-the-counter heartburn remedies in that they're predominately calcium

carbonate which apparently neutralizes stomach acid from a Western

perspective. Brand names such as Tums and Rolaids are essentially calcium

carbonate. Wa leng zi and wu zei gu (hai piao xiao) both contain significant

amounts of calcium carbonate. In fact, there's a mine in the San Bernardino

mountains of California where they pull up the remains of millions of years

of shells that fell to the bottom of an ancient ocean. Once mined, the

calcium carbonate is processed for inclusion in antacids and other medicinal

and industrial applications.

 

> Does anyone have any citations of research demonstrating the affects of

> these (or other) herbs on the stomach acid. Maybe some of these have a

> some-what adaptogenic nature.

>

 

I think that their chemical constituents pretty much covers it, but I'd also

like to add that some physicians believe that taking antacids can cause a

rebound effect where the stomach ends up secreting more HCL to re-acidize

itself, in which case I suppose one could say that these herbs stimulate the

secretion of HCL.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm happy you at least found it interesting. After 35 plus years, I've

thought a lot about many of these and other ideas.

 

What does the concept in TCM mean when it states that the stomach must be

cool? -- or that it is the place where the yin for the body is created?

Its a fundamental idea -- balancing the cooler middle warmer with the warmer

lower warmer. The process of digestion is many things but it is

fundamentally a chemical breakdown of food beginning in the middle warmer

(stomach) HCL acid in the stomach to alkaline (pepsin and biliary

secretions) and finally what is probably a slightly more acidic environment

in the Large intestine.

 

HCL is one of the most potent natural acids there is, or so I am told. In

order for HCL to not destroy the stomach lining there needs to be a

sufficient coating of mucus.

 

From wickpedia: Alkaline mucus is a thick fluid produced by animals which

confers tissue protection in an acidic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid>

environment, such as in the stomach <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stomach> .

 

Therefore the mucus lining the stomach must be alkaline (cool and what in

TCM would be " the yin of the stomach " ) to protect it from the acidic

contents (hot). Not try to wrap your mind around an understanding of the

effects of herbs such as ophiopogon and dendrobium for nourishing stomach

yin.

 

 

Acid reflux irritates and swells the mucous lining in the throat, esophagus

and stomach, which disrupts the digestive process. The irritation can form

ulcers. The acid-alkaline balance of the digestive tract is also upset,

leading to further accumulation of acid.

 

Mucus protect all tissues because it is cool (more alkaline) cold mucus is

clear or white but hot mucus which is more acidic is yellow. Bitter herbs

and green vegetables generally have the effect of cooling, i.e. neutralizing

acid. However dose is important. Large doses of strongly bitter herbs, as in

digestive bitters, can produce a rebound acid effect. This is ultimately

exhaustive to the yang of the body and that is one reason why depending on

the ingesting over bitters over a long period of time to treat digestive

weakness can ultimately weaken digestive and an increasing creative

dependency on these.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planeherbs.com

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

Saturday, February 09, 2008 5:30 AM

 

RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

Michael,

Interesting. But on what do you base this idea?

Joseph Garner

 

Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs <mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com>

wrote: My thinking about it is that the contents of the stomach is acid but

the

lining is alkaline. The yin and yang of it is that if the acid content is

greater than the alkaline lining -- the result is GERD or ulcers. Michael

Tierra

 

_____

 

 

http://www.chineseh <http://www..org> erbacademy.org

 

Change settings via the Web ( ID required)

Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format

to Traditional

Visit Your Group | Terms of Use | Un

 

Recent Activity

 

2

New Members

 

Visit Your Group

Health

Healthy Aging

Improve your

quality of life.

 

Meditation and

Lovingkindness

A Group

to share and learn.

 

Moderator Central

 

Join and receive

produce updates.

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

 

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Free thinking is what everyone does whether intended or not -- or we can

take a stab at non-thinking which is better for our soul. for me, the

ultimate question in regards to TCM is not whether something is true or not.

It is in the practicality or usefulness of a thought that the tradition is

based. TCM is circular logic and that is what drives Westerners crazy as you

said " yin and yang has many permutations " right on! so what do you go with?

What are we as Westerner TCM practitioners faced with? On the one hand we

have the classics and these are so often so sketchy that even every duly

trained Chinese exponent will ridiculously site some fragment of the Nei

Ching or Nan Jing in support of whatever theory they want -- sort of like

how some will site a quotation from the bible on the one hand to justify a

call to war and on another a call to peace or anything else in complete

disregard for cultural context.

 

All well and good but ---- Does that mean we -- you or I have no place for

" free thinking " -- who is or is not qualified to be the free thinkers here?

How many respected TCM practitioners have you studied with (as I have) who

have not contradicted each other. Our training in TCM is such that we have

learned to be comfortable with the 'either, or, and' way of thought.

Personally I like it but I claim my right based on whatever level of

experience and knowledge I have been able to garner in over 35 years of

practice to participate.

 

Yes, I think it is vitally important and enlightening to expand beyond the

classics and at least attempt to understand TCM in light of modern

physiology. To that end, I don't mind being wrong once in awhile but at

least it might be an interesting discussion that could lead to further

evolution and a deeper appreciation for the incredible collective genius

behind Traditional .

 

So I posit the notion that mucus is the alkaline secretion that protects the

stomach from being destroyed by its acidic contents -- therefore I propose

that the mucus secretions of the stomach are at least in part what the

classics describe as " stomach yin " . This is particularly exciting to me

because it causes me to consider at a deeper level what the actual actions

and properties are of herbs that " nourish stomach yin. " We can have fun

studying the biochemistry of these herbs which by the way, I favor that we

know them both by their Latin binomials as well as their Chinese names if

for no other reason than the fact that many different herbs, even different

species of herbs are too often known by the same Chinese name.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Saturday, February 09, 2008 6:39 AM

 

RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

Michael,

 

I appreciate your free thinking on these issues. However, I think if you are

making claims that a medicinal (wu mei or any other) does this or that, it

should be rooted in some source somewhere. This speaks to the larger problem

that I feel is ramped in this country. This discussion aside, I think the

last thing our profession needs in free-thinking when the majority of people

barely know the basics, but that is another issue.

 

More importantly, you made the statement that wu mei neutralizes (reduces)

stomach acid. I ask again, do you have a source for this? Or maybe you could

explain how your below statement relates to wu mei and the function you

ascribe to it.

 

As it stands your below (yin and yang) statement seems physiologically

confusing and over-simplified.

 

For example, the stomach contents must be acidic to digest foods. You want a

low pH (very acidic) when you eat, pH of 1 is great! GERD USUALLY happens

from lack of stomach acid production (hypochlorhydria). This in turn creates

a relatively alkaline environment (from what it should be), and the

contents, specifically proteins, are unable to properly digest. This

environment is still acidic though. Consequently, the proteins putrefy and

ferment and in turn cause a very acid environment. This looks like your

stomach produced too much acid, but it did not. This acid rises up and

causes GERD(1). Of course not all cases of GERD are from hypochlorhydria,

some are from actually hyperchlorhydria, therefore and one must

differentiate. This yin and yang dance has many permutations.

 

Therefore, what is meant by " acid content is greater than the alkaline

lining " ???

 

One can see how taking antacids will help the condition but do little for

treating the problem. However I am having a hard time understanding how your

yin and yang model works. Could you explain?

 

-

 

References:

 

(1) Kharrazian, Datis (2005). Functional Blood Chemistry Analysis.

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Friday, February 08, 2008 10:46 PM

@ <%40>

 

RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

My thinking about it is that the contents of the stomach is acid but the

lining is alkaline. The yin and yang of it is that if the acid content is

greater than the alkaline lining -- the result is GERD or ulcers. Michael

Tierra

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Al Stone

Friday, February 08, 2008 8:31 PM

@ <%40>

 

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

2008/2/8 <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com>:

 

> Finally, to throw a wrinkle into the thinking, the commonly used wa leng

> zi

> and wu zei gu, are said to inhibit and promote stomach acid, depending on

> the author. Maybe they do both.

>

 

I think of these shell (and bone) herbs as working with the same mechanisms

of over-the-counter heartburn remedies in that they're predominately calcium

carbonate which apparently neutralizes stomach acid from a Western

perspective. Brand names such as Tums and Rolaids are essentially calcium

carbonate. Wa leng zi and wu zei gu (hai piao xiao) both contain significant

amounts of calcium carbonate. In fact, there's a mine in the San Bernardino

mountains of California where they pull up the remains of millions of years

of shells that fell to the bottom of an ancient ocean. Once mined, the

calcium carbonate is processed for inclusion in antacids and other medicinal

and industrial applications.

 

> Does anyone have any citations of research demonstrating the affects of

> these (or other) herbs on the stomach acid. Maybe some of these have a

> some-what adaptogenic nature.

>

 

I think that their chemical constituents pretty much covers it, but I'd also

like to add that some physicians believe that taking antacids can cause a

rebound effect where the stomach ends up secreting more HCL to re-acidize

itself, in which case I suppose one could say that these herbs stimulate the

secretion of HCL.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, pepsin also has a strong acidic PH.

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Saturday, February 09, 2008 8:06 AM

 

RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

I'm happy you at least found it interesting. After 35 plus years, I've

thought a lot about many of these and other ideas.

 

What does the concept in TCM mean when it states that the stomach must be

cool? -- or that it is the place where the yin for the body is created?

Its a fundamental idea -- balancing the cooler middle warmer with the warmer

lower warmer. The process of digestion is many things but it is

fundamentally a chemical breakdown of food beginning in the middle warmer

(stomach) HCL acid in the stomach to alkaline (pepsin and biliary

secretions) and finally what is probably a slightly more acidic environment

in the Large intestine.

 

HCL is one of the most potent natural acids there is, or so I am told. In

order for HCL to not destroy the stomach lining there needs to be a

sufficient coating of mucus.

 

From wickpedia: Alkaline mucus is a thick fluid produced by animals which

confers tissue protection in an acidic <http://en.wikipedia

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid> .org/wiki/Acid>

environment, such as in the stomach <http://en.wikipedia

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stomach> .org/wiki/Stomach> .

 

Therefore the mucus lining the stomach must be alkaline (cool and what in

TCM would be " the yin of the stomach " ) to protect it from the acidic

contents (hot). Not try to wrap your mind around an understanding of the

effects of herbs such as ophiopogon and dendrobium for nourishing stomach

yin.

 

 

Acid reflux irritates and swells the mucous lining in the throat, esophagus

and stomach, which disrupts the digestive process. The irritation can form

ulcers. The acid-alkaline balance of the digestive tract is also upset,

leading to further accumulation of acid.

 

Mucus protect all tissues because it is cool (more alkaline) cold mucus is

clear or white but hot mucus which is more acidic is yellow. Bitter herbs

and green vegetables generally have the effect of cooling, i.e. neutralizing

acid. However dose is important. Large doses of strongly bitter herbs, as in

digestive bitters, can produce a rebound acid effect. This is ultimately

exhaustive to the yang of the body and that is one reason why depending on

the ingesting over bitters over a long period of time to treat digestive

weakness can ultimately weaken digestive and an increasing creative

dependency on these.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planeherbs.com

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

Saturday, February 09, 2008 5:30 AM

@ <%40>

 

RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

Michael,

Interesting. But on what do you base this idea?

Joseph Garner

 

Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs <mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com>

wrote: My thinking about it is that the contents of the stomach is acid but

the

lining is alkaline. The yin and yang of it is that if the acid content is

greater than the alkaline lining -- the result is GERD or ulcers. Michael

Tierra

 

_____

 

http://www.chineseh <http://www.chineseh <http://www..org>

erbacademy.org> erbacademy.org

 

Change settings via the Web ( ID required)

Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format

to Traditional

Visit Your Group | Terms of Use | Un

 

Recent Activity

 

2

New Members

 

Visit Your Group

Health

Healthy Aging

Improve your

quality of life.

 

Meditation and

Lovingkindness

A Group

to share and learn.

 

Moderator Central

 

Join and receive

produce updates.

 

..

 

 

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael.

I want to express that I disagree with your position that bitters produce

a rebound effect.

I have used herbal bitters for years in treating GERD and I feel certain

that they not only manage the symptoms, but also deal with the root cause,

which is reflux: not excess stomach acid.

 

According to Simon Mills, ( I am not near my source text, so I will

paraphrase) when herbal bitters hit the bitter taste bud receptors, a

cascade of digestive activity is stimulated: stomach acid is secreted, but

so is antacid by the liver and ( I think) brunners glands. Further- over

time, bitters tonify- or re-teach the esophageal sphincter to close. It¹s

like waking up an atrophied muscle. It works. It can take up to a year in

the worst cases.

 

I almost always start with zuo gui wan. And even thought it is symptomatic,

in the beginning I use hai piao xiao, wa leng zi to provide relief from

reflux discomfort. I may add a stomach yin herb- mai dong, shi hu, also

bai shao etc. if the tongue is pale, I will add chen pi, xiao hui xiang. And

yes, I very often use wu mei , long a true favorite for the myriad reasons

discussed here recently. If the pain is severe, or sharp, I may include shi

xiao san, jing ling zi san- something along those lines. If they have a

sensation of something in the throat, I will modify with ban xia hou pop

tang. If the reflux is very bad, I have them sip the formula all day long,

until the discomfort is relieved.

 

I get very, very good results with this type of strategy. In fact I never,

ever had a patient who did not improve. Almost all to the point of total

cure ( no symptoms, no discomfort, no need for continual treatment).

 

anyway I hope this helps.

 

Cara

 

Cara O. Frank, R.OM, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

Six Fishes Healing Arts &

President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program

Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

215-772-0770

 

 

 

 

Michael Tierra <mtierra

 

Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:06:08 -0800

 

RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

 

 

I'm happy you at least found it interesting. After 35 plus years, I've

thought a lot about many of these and other ideas.

 

What does the concept in TCM mean when it states that the stomach must be

cool? -- or that it is the place where the yin for the body is created?

Its a fundamental idea -- balancing the cooler middle warmer with the warmer

lower warmer. The process of digestion is many things but it is

fundamentally a chemical breakdown of food beginning in the middle warmer

(stomach) HCL acid in the stomach to alkaline (pepsin and biliary

secretions) and finally what is probably a slightly more acidic environment

in the Large intestine.

 

HCL is one of the most potent natural acids there is, or so I am told. In

order for HCL to not destroy the stomach lining there needs to be a

sufficient coating of mucus.

 

From wickpedia: Alkaline mucus is a thick fluid produced by animals which

confers tissue protection in an acidic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid>

environment, such as in the stomach <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stomach> .

 

Therefore the mucus lining the stomach must be alkaline (cool and what in

TCM would be " the yin of the stomach " ) to protect it from the acidic

contents (hot). Not try to wrap your mind around an understanding of the

effects of herbs such as ophiopogon and dendrobium for nourishing stomach

yin.

 

 

Acid reflux irritates and swells the mucous lining in the throat, esophagus

and stomach, which disrupts the digestive process. The irritation can form

ulcers. The acid-alkaline balance of the digestive tract is also upset,

leading to further accumulation of acid.

 

Mucus protect all tissues because it is cool (more alkaline) cold mucus is

clear or white but hot mucus which is more acidic is yellow. Bitter herbs

and green vegetables generally have the effect of cooling, i.e. neutralizing

acid. However dose is important. Large doses of strongly bitter herbs, as in

digestive bitters, can produce a rebound acid effect. This is ultimately

exhaustive to the yang of the body and that is one reason why depending on

the ingesting over bitters over a long period of time to treat digestive

weakness can ultimately weaken digestive and an increasing creative

dependency on these.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planeherbs.com

 

_____

 

 

<%40>

[

<%40> ] On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

Saturday, February 09, 2008 5:30 AM

 

<%40>

RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

Michael,

Interesting. But on what do you base this idea?

Joseph Garner

 

Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs <mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com>

wrote: My thinking about it is that the contents of the stomach is acid but

the

lining is alkaline. The yin and yang of it is that if the acid content is

greater than the alkaline lining -- the result is GERD or ulcers. Michael

Tierra

 

_____

 

http://www.chineseh <http://www..org> erbacademy.org

 

Change settings via the Web ( ID required)

Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format

to Traditional

Visit Your Group | Terms of Use | Un

 

Recent Activity

 

2

New Members

 

Visit Your Group

Health

Healthy Aging

Improve your

quality of life.

 

Meditation and

Lovingkindness

A Group

to share and learn.

 

Moderator Central

 

Join and receive

produce updates.

 

..

 

 

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cara, did you mean you start with Zuo Jin Wan? In any case its an

interesting formula to bring in to the discussion. One part Wu Zhu Yu

to 12 parts Huang Lian. Wu Zhu Yu is said to kill H-pylori and then

much Huang Lian to cool the wu zhu yu. Talk about Yin and yang, hot

and cold in one package.

Doug

 

 

, Cara Frank <herbbabe

wrote:

>

> Michael.

> I want to express that I disagree with your position that bitters

produce

> a rebound effect.

> I have used herbal bitters for years in treating GERD and I feel

certain

> that they not only manage the symptoms, but also deal with the root

cause,

> which is reflux: not excess stomach acid.

>

> According to Simon Mills, ( I am not near my source text, so I will

> paraphrase) when herbal bitters hit the bitter taste bud receptors, a

> cascade of digestive activity is stimulated: stomach acid is

secreted, but

> so is antacid by the liver and ( I think) brunners glands. Further- over

> time, bitters tonify- or re-teach the esophageal sphincter to close.

It¹s

> like waking up an atrophied muscle. It works. It can take up to a

year in

> the worst cases.

>

> I almost always start with zuo gui wan. And even thought it is

symptomatic,

> in the beginning I use hai piao xiao, wa leng zi to provide relief from

> reflux discomfort. I may add a stomach yin herb- mai dong, shi hu,

also

> bai shao etc. if the tongue is pale, I will add chen pi, xiao hui

xiang. And

> yes, I very often use wu mei , long a true favorite for the myriad

reasons

> discussed here recently. If the pain is severe, or sharp, I may

include shi

> xiao san, jing ling zi san- something along those lines. If they have a

> sensation of something in the throat, I will modify with ban xia hou pop

> tang. If the reflux is very bad, I have them sip the formula all day

long,

> until the discomfort is relieved.

>

> I get very, very good results with this type of strategy. In fact I

never,

> ever had a patient who did not improve. Almost all to the point of

total

> cure ( no symptoms, no discomfort, no need for continual treatment).

>

> anyway I hope this helps.

>

> Cara

>

> Cara O. Frank, R.OM, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

> Six Fishes Healing Arts &

> President China Herb Company

> Director of the Chinese Herb Program

> Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

> 215-772-0770

>

>

>

>

> Michael Tierra <mtierra

>

> Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:06:08 -0800

>

> RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

Medicinal

>

>

>

>

>

> I'm happy you at least found it interesting. After 35 plus years, I've

> thought a lot about many of these and other ideas.

>

> What does the concept in TCM mean when it states that the stomach

must be

> cool? -- or that it is the place where the yin for the body is created?

> Its a fundamental idea -- balancing the cooler middle warmer with

the warmer

> lower warmer. The process of digestion is many things but it is

> fundamentally a chemical breakdown of food beginning in the middle

warmer

> (stomach) HCL acid in the stomach to alkaline (pepsin and biliary

> secretions) and finally what is probably a slightly more acidic

environment

> in the Large intestine.

>

> HCL is one of the most potent natural acids there is, or so I am

told. In

> order for HCL to not destroy the stomach lining there needs to be a

> sufficient coating of mucus.

>

> From wickpedia: Alkaline mucus is a thick fluid produced by animals

which

> confers tissue protection in an acidic

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid>

> environment, such as in the stomach

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stomach> .

>

> Therefore the mucus lining the stomach must be alkaline (cool and

what in

> TCM would be " the yin of the stomach " ) to protect it from the acidic

> contents (hot). Not try to wrap your mind around an understanding of the

> effects of herbs such as ophiopogon and dendrobium for nourishing

stomach

> yin.

>

>

> Acid reflux irritates and swells the mucous lining in the throat,

esophagus

> and stomach, which disrupts the digestive process. The irritation

can form

> ulcers. The acid-alkaline balance of the digestive tract is also upset,

> leading to further accumulation of acid.

>

> Mucus protect all tissues because it is cool (more alkaline) cold

mucus is

> clear or white but hot mucus which is more acidic is yellow. Bitter

herbs

> and green vegetables generally have the effect of cooling, i.e.

neutralizing

> acid. However dose is important. Large doses of strongly bitter

herbs, as in

> digestive bitters, can produce a rebound acid effect. This is ultimately

> exhaustive to the yang of the body and that is one reason why

depending on

> the ingesting over bitters over a long period of time to treat digestive

> weakness can ultimately weaken digestive and an increasing creative

> dependency on these.

>

> Michael Tierra

> www.planeherbs.com

>

> _____

>

>

> <%40>

> [

> <%40> ] On Behalf Of Joseph

Garner

> Saturday, February 09, 2008 5:30 AM

>

> <%40>

> RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

Medicinal

>

> Michael,

> Interesting. But on what do you base this idea?

> Joseph Garner

>

> Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs

<mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com>

> wrote: My thinking about it is that the contents of the stomach is

acid but

> the

> lining is alkaline. The yin and yang of it is that if the acid

content is

> greater than the alkaline lining -- the result is GERD or ulcers.

Michael

> Tierra

>

> _____

>

> http://www.chineseh <http://www..org> erbacademy.org

>

> Change settings via the Web ( ID required)

> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch

format

> to Traditional

> Visit Your Group | Terms of Use | Un

>

> Recent Activity

>

> 2

> New Members

>

> Visit Your Group

> Health

> Healthy Aging

> Improve your

> quality of life.

>

> Meditation and

> Lovingkindness

> A Group

> to share and learn.

>

> Moderator Central

>

> Join and receive

> produce updates.

>

> .

>

>

> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with

Search.

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually the proportions are 6:1, huang lian/ wu zhu yu.

yes- a really interesting formula/dui yao. One of the hottest and one of

the coldest. Brilliant and effective, even unmodified.

Cara O. Frank, R.OM, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

Six Fishes Healing Arts &

President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program

Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

215-772-0770

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 06:49:53 +0000

 

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

 

 

Cara, did you mean you start with Zuo Jin Wan? In any case its an

interesting formula to bring in to the discussion. One part Wu Zhu Yu

to 12 parts Huang Lian. Wu Zhu Yu is said to kill H-pylori and then

much Huang Lian to cool the wu zhu yu. Talk about Yin and yang, hot

and cold in one package.

Doug

 

 

<%40> , Cara Frank <herbbabe

wrote:

>

> Michael.

> I want to express that I disagree with your position that bitters

produce

> a rebound effect.

> I have used herbal bitters for years in treating GERD and I feel

certain

> that they not only manage the symptoms, but also deal with the root

cause,

> which is reflux: not excess stomach acid.

>

> According to Simon Mills, ( I am not near my source text, so I will

> paraphrase) when herbal bitters hit the bitter taste bud receptors, a

> cascade of digestive activity is stimulated: stomach acid is

secreted, but

> so is antacid by the liver and ( I think) brunners glands. Further- over

> time, bitters tonify- or re-teach the esophageal sphincter to close.

It¹s

> like waking up an atrophied muscle. It works. It can take up to a

year in

> the worst cases.

>

> I almost always start with zuo gui wan. And even thought it is

symptomatic,

> in the beginning I use hai piao xiao, wa leng zi to provide relief from

> reflux discomfort. I may add a stomach yin herb- mai dong, shi hu,

also

> bai shao etc. if the tongue is pale, I will add chen pi, xiao hui

xiang. And

> yes, I very often use wu mei , long a true favorite for the myriad

reasons

> discussed here recently. If the pain is severe, or sharp, I may

include shi

> xiao san, jing ling zi san- something along those lines. If they have a

> sensation of something in the throat, I will modify with ban xia hou pop

> tang. If the reflux is very bad, I have them sip the formula all day

long,

> until the discomfort is relieved.

>

> I get very, very good results with this type of strategy. In fact I

never,

> ever had a patient who did not improve. Almost all to the point of

total

> cure ( no symptoms, no discomfort, no need for continual treatment).

>

> anyway I hope this helps.

>

> Cara

>

> Cara O. Frank, R.OM, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

> Six Fishes Healing Arts &

> President China Herb Company

> Director of the Chinese Herb Program

> Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

> 215-772-0770

>

>

>

>

> Michael Tierra <mtierra

> <

<%40> >

> Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:06:08 -0800

> <

<%40> >

> RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

Medicinal

>

>

>

>

>

> I'm happy you at least found it interesting. After 35 plus years, I've

> thought a lot about many of these and other ideas.

>

> What does the concept in TCM mean when it states that the stomach

must be

> cool? -- or that it is the place where the yin for the body is created?

> Its a fundamental idea -- balancing the cooler middle warmer with

the warmer

> lower warmer. The process of digestion is many things but it is

> fundamentally a chemical breakdown of food beginning in the middle

warmer

> (stomach) HCL acid in the stomach to alkaline (pepsin and biliary

> secretions) and finally what is probably a slightly more acidic

environment

> in the Large intestine.

>

> HCL is one of the most potent natural acids there is, or so I am

told. In

> order for HCL to not destroy the stomach lining there needs to be a

> sufficient coating of mucus.

>

> From wickpedia: Alkaline mucus is a thick fluid produced by animals

which

> confers tissue protection in an acidic

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid>

> environment, such as in the stomach

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stomach> .

>

> Therefore the mucus lining the stomach must be alkaline (cool and

what in

> TCM would be " the yin of the stomach " ) to protect it from the acidic

> contents (hot). Not try to wrap your mind around an understanding of the

> effects of herbs such as ophiopogon and dendrobium for nourishing

stomach

> yin.

>

>

> Acid reflux irritates and swells the mucous lining in the throat,

esophagus

> and stomach, which disrupts the digestive process. The irritation

can form

> ulcers. The acid-alkaline balance of the digestive tract is also upset,

> leading to further accumulation of acid.

>

> Mucus protect all tissues because it is cool (more alkaline) cold

mucus is

> clear or white but hot mucus which is more acidic is yellow. Bitter

herbs

> and green vegetables generally have the effect of cooling, i.e.

neutralizing

> acid. However dose is important. Large doses of strongly bitter

herbs, as in

> digestive bitters, can produce a rebound acid effect. This is ultimately

> exhaustive to the yang of the body and that is one reason why

depending on

> the ingesting over bitters over a long period of time to treat digestive

> weakness can ultimately weaken digestive and an increasing creative

> dependency on these.

>

> Michael Tierra

> www.planeherbs.com

>

> _____

>

>

<%40>

> <%40>

> [

<%40>

> <%40> ] On Behalf Of Joseph

Garner

> Saturday, February 09, 2008 5:30 AM

>

<%40>

> <%40>

> RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

Medicinal

>

> Michael,

> Interesting. But on what do you base this idea?

> Joseph Garner

>

> Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs

<mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com>

> wrote: My thinking about it is that the contents of the stomach is

acid but

> the

> lining is alkaline. The yin and yang of it is that if the acid

content is

> greater than the alkaline lining -- the result is GERD or ulcers.

Michael

> Tierra

>

> _____

>

> http://www.chineseh <http://www..org> erbacademy.org

>

> Change settings via the Web ( ID required)

> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch

format

> to Traditional

> Visit Your Group | Terms of Use | Un

>

> Recent Activity

>

> 2

> New Members

>

> Visit Your Group

> Health

> Healthy Aging

> Improve your

> quality of life.

>

> Meditation and

> Lovingkindness

> A Group

> to share and learn.

>

> Moderator Central

>

> Join and receive

> produce updates.

>

> .

>

>

> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with

Search.

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I fully agree but have you considered that one of the explanations about

GERD is actually a defiiency of Stomach acid? So you can neutralize stomach

acid with antacids and relieve the symptoms or stimulate more with bitters

and treat the cause. Michael Tierra

 

_____

 

Michael.

I want to express that I disagree with your position that bitters produce

a rebound effect.

I have used herbal bitters for years in treating GERD and I feel certain

that they not only manage the symptoms, but also deal with the root cause,

which is reflux: not excess stomach acid.

 

According to Simon Mills, ( I am not near my source text, so I will

paraphrase) when herbal bitters hit the bitter taste bud receptors, a

cascade of digestive activity is stimulated: stomach acid is secreted, but

so is antacid by the liver and ( I think) brunners glands. Further- over

time, bitters tonify- or re-teach the esophageal sphincter to close. It¹s

like waking up an atrophied muscle. It works. It can take up to a year in

the worst cases.

 

I almost always start with zuo gui wan. And even thought it is symptomatic,

in the beginning I use hai piao xiao, wa leng zi to provide relief from

reflux discomfort. I may add a stomach yin herb- mai dong, shi hu, also

bai shao etc. if the tongue is pale, I will add chen pi, xiao hui xiang. And

yes, I very often use wu mei , long a true favorite for the myriad reasons

discussed here recently. If the pain is severe, or sharp, I may include shi

xiao san, jing ling zi san- something along those lines. If they have a

sensation of something in the throat, I will modify with ban xia hou pop

tang. If the reflux is very bad, I have them sip the formula all day long,

until the discomfort is relieved.

 

I get very, very good results with this type of strategy. In fact I never,

ever had a patient who did not improve. Almost all to the point of total

cure ( no symptoms, no discomfort, no need for continual treatment).

 

anyway I hope this helps.

 

Cara

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cara and all,

 

I agree with you and use a similar protocol. However, I find the same

proportions (or there about) using huang lian and mu xiang to be very effective.

This can be purchased as a patent from Mayway (not sure of the proportions in

this product off the top of my head). I also use Fillipendula ulmaria, Althea

officinalis, Plantago sp. (leaf), and Glycyrrhiza sp. as a standard starting

point, often giving these four as a tea along with either the patent or a powder

of the huang lian and mu xiang. I agree that using hai piao xiao et al is

excellent to relieve acute symptomology is very important, but I usually don't

need it for more that 3-7 days.

 

I have also found shan zha to have of use in many situations when the patient is

the gluttonous type.

 

I also have to confess, I don't really use wu mei....this discussion has been

very interesting for me, thank all of you from bringing the medicinal to light.

 

Thomas

 

 

 

Beijing, China

Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide

 

www.sourcepointherbs.org

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm confounded by how GERD is being described in terms of the stomach's

chemistry. GERD is a reflux issue, this is a peristaltic disorder, not

chemistry.

 

Am I missing something?

 

On Feb 10, 2008 7:05 AM, Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

 

> I fully agree but have you considered that one of the explanations about

> GERD is actually a defiiency of Stomach acid? So you can neutralize

> stomach

> acid with antacids and relieve the symptoms or stimulate more with bitters

> and treat the cause. Michael Tierra

>

>

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Al,

 

I have been thinking the same thing.

 

-darby

 

On Feb 10, 2008 3:13 PM, Al Stone <al wrote:

 

> I'm confounded by how GERD is being described in terms of the stomach's

> chemistry. GERD is a reflux issue, this is a peristaltic disorder, not

> chemistry.

>

> Am I missing something?

>

>

> On Feb 10, 2008 7:05 AM, Michael Tierra

<mtierra<mtierra%40planetherbs.com>>

> wrote:

>

> > I fully agree but have you considered that one of the explanations about

> > GERD is actually a defiiency of Stomach acid? So you can neutralize

> > stomach

> > acid with antacids and relieve the symptoms or stimulate more with

> bitters

> > and treat the cause. Michael Tierra

> >

> >

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is also my understanding. it¹s not that there is excess acid, it¹s

that the esophageal sphincter does not close. It¹s a mechanistic , or

perhaps, an architectural issue.

 

Cara O. Frank, R.OM, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

Six Fishes Healing Arts &

President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program

Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

215-772-0770

 

 

 

 

Al Stone <al

 

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:13:03 -0800

 

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

 

 

I'm confounded by how GERD is being described in terms of the stomach's

chemistry. GERD is a reflux issue, this is a peristaltic disorder, not

chemistry.

 

Am I missing something?

 

On Feb 10, 2008 7:05 AM, Michael Tierra <mtierra

<mtierra%40planetherbs.com> > wrote:

 

> I fully agree but have you considered that one of the explanations about

> GERD is actually a defiiency of Stomach acid? So you can neutralize

> stomach

> acid with antacids and relieve the symptoms or stimulate more with bitters

> and treat the cause. Michael Tierra

>

>

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael,

While I've enjoyed a lot of what you've had to say on wu mei, and

also hold this medicinal in high esteem, I think you are stretching it

by injecting this point below. There are plenty of scholars in Nei

Jing, Nan Jing, Shang Han Lun and other classics who don't do what you

say below, who are quite scholarly about the texts, and clearly state

their sources and ideas. Also a " jing " is not a 'bible', it is more

of a compendium of medical principles that have been applied to new

situations. The fact that they've survived the generations to inspire

new practitioners of medicine is both astounding and inspiring.

 

 

On Feb 9, 2008, at 8:31 AM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

> On the one hand we

> have the classics and these are so often so sketchy that even every

> duly

> trained Chinese exponent will ridiculously site some fragment of the

> Nei

> Ching or Nan Jing in support of whatever theory they want -- sort of

> like

> how some will site a quotation from the bible on the one hand to

> justify a

> call to war and on another a call to peace or anything else in

> complete

> disregard for cultural context.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All, While you are right up to a point, as you can see from the following

GERD is clearly influenced by certain foods, probably stress as well. The

fact that most cases are quite simply relieved and eventually cured by

taking a tablespoon each of apple cider vinegar and honey to me suggests

that stomach chemistry is a big factor. It is also relieved by eating a

piece of apple.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

 

 

 

 

From http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/gerd/

 

" the reason some people develop GERD is still unclear. However, research

shows that in people with GERD, the LES relaxes while the rest of the

esophagus is working. Anatomical abnormalities such as a hiatal hernia may

also contribute to GERD. A hiatal hernia occurs when the upper part of the

stomach and the LES move above the diaphragm, the muscle wall that separates

the stomach from the chest. Normally, the diaphragm helps the LES keep acid

from rising up into the esophagus. When a hiatal hernia is present, acid

reflux can occur more easily. A hiatal hernia can occur in people of any age

and is most often a normal finding in otherwise healthy people over age 50.

Most of the time, a hiatal hernia produces no symptoms.

 

Other factors that may contribute to GERD include

 

* obesity

 

* pregnancy

 

* smoking

 

Common foods that can worsen reflux symptoms include

 

* citrus fruits

 

* chocolate

 

* drinks with caffeine or alcohol

 

* fatty and fried foods

 

* garlic and onions

 

* mint flavorings

 

* spicy foods

 

* tomato-based foods, like spaghetti sauce, salsa, chili, and pizza "

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Al Stone

Sunday, February 10, 2008 1:13 PM

 

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

I'm confounded by how GERD is being described in terms of the stomach's

chemistry. GERD is a reflux issue, this is a peristaltic disorder, not

chemistry.

 

Am I missing something?

 

On Feb 10, 2008 7:05 AM, Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs

<mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com> wrote:

 

> I fully agree but have you considered that one of the explanations about

> GERD is actually a defiiency of Stomach acid? So you can neutralize

> stomach

> acid with antacids and relieve the symptoms or stimulate more with bitters

> and treat the cause. Michael Tierra

>

>

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cara, Please give the apple cider vinegar and honey bit a try and tell me

what you think afterwards. --- its such a simple empirical treatment and I

know that before I learned it I went a little nuts trying to pattern the

condition out to find the right remedy.

MT

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Cara Frank

Sunday, February 10, 2008 2:01 PM

 

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

That is also my understanding. it¹s not that there is excess acid, it¹s

that the esophageal sphincter does not close. It¹s a mechanistic , or

perhaps, an architectural issue.

 

Cara O. Frank, R.OM, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

Six Fishes Healing Arts &

President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program

Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

215-772-0770

 

Al Stone <al <al%40gancao.net> >

<@ <%40>

>

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:13:03 -0800

<@ <%40>

>

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

I'm confounded by how GERD is being described in terms of the stomach's

chemistry. GERD is a reflux issue, this is a peristaltic disorder, not

chemistry.

 

Am I missing something?

 

On Feb 10, 2008 7:05 AM, Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs

<mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com

<mtierra%40planetherbs.com> > wrote:

 

> I fully agree but have you considered that one of the explanations about

> GERD is actually a defiiency of Stomach acid? So you can neutralize

> stomach

> acid with antacids and relieve the symptoms or stimulate more with bitters

> and treat the cause. Michael Tierra

>

>

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If (to borrow from my favorite Japanese TV cooking show) memory serves

me correctly, when the stomach excretes too much acid over time, the

acid damages the esophageal sphincter entering the stomach. After

time, GERD results and the damage weakens the sphincter allowing acid

to easily transfer into the esophagus damaging cells above the Z-line.

If that continues too long, esophageal damage can result - possibly

leading to Barrett's esophagus and possibly esophageal adenocarcinoma

in rare cases (but now that's really stretching my memory to the max. ;-)

 

Geoff

 

 

, " Al Stone " <al wrote:

>

> I'm confounded by how GERD is being described in terms of the stomach's

> chemistry. GERD is a reflux issue, this is a peristaltic disorder, not

> chemistry.

>

> Am I missing something?

>

> On Feb 10, 2008 7:05 AM, Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

>

> > I fully agree but have you considered that one of the

explanations about

> > GERD is actually a defiiency of Stomach acid? So you can neutralize

> > stomach

> > acid with antacids and relieve the symptoms or stimulate more with

bitters

> > and treat the cause. Michael Tierra

> >

> >

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, but why does the apple cider vinegar and honey or even eating a slice

of apple work so brilliantly for this condition? Michael

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of G Hudson

Monday, February 11, 2008 11:51 AM

 

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

If (to borrow from my favorite Japanese TV cooking show) memory serves

me correctly, when the stomach excretes too much acid over time, the

acid damages the esophageal sphincter entering the stomach. After

time, GERD results and the damage weakens the sphincter allowing acid

to easily transfer into the esophagus damaging cells above the Z-line.

If that continues too long, esophageal damage can result - possibly

leading to Barrett's esophagus and possibly esophageal adenocarcinoma

in rare cases (but now that's really stretching my memory to the max. ;-)

 

Geoff

 

@ <%40>

, " Al Stone " <al wrote:

>

> I'm confounded by how GERD is being described in terms of the stomach's

> chemistry. GERD is a reflux issue, this is a peristaltic disorder, not

> chemistry.

>

> Am I missing something?

>

> On Feb 10, 2008 7:05 AM, Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

>

> > I fully agree but have you considered that one of the

explanations about

> > GERD is actually a defiiency of Stomach acid? So you can neutralize

> > stomach

> > acid with antacids and relieve the symptoms or stimulate more with

bitters

> > and treat the cause. Michael Tierra

> >

> >

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is SHL?

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Monday, February 11, 2008 12:09 PM

 

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

Zev

I think the SHL it self proves what micheal is saying to be true

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael, et al --

 

Probably b/c the situation is generally a product of low stomach acid.

 

From this page - http://www.functionalhealthsolutions.com/blog/?p=55

- I've extracted the following:

 

> While LES poblems present in a few individuals, the overriding

> issue underlying reflux problems is inflammation in the stomach, or

> gastritis, and low stomach acid, or hypochlorhyria. This is in

> direct opposition to mainstream approaches that traditionally

> expouse and promote the reflux problem as being related to high

> stomach acid production. Nothing could be further from the truth.

> The function of the LES is dependent on the acid/alkaline state of

> the stomach. A more alkaline stomach, or one that has a deficiency

> in hydrochloric acid production, contributes to a more relaxed LES

> that allows stomach contents to reflux through it. This is

> especially noticeable, after one has eaten. The stomach is full

> with insufficient stomach acid for digestion, which in turn, causes

> the LES to malfunction and allows the reflux of food and stomach

> acid. A sufficiency of stomach acid, on the other hand, keeps the

> LES nice and tight, not allowing any reflux. A significant problem

> associated GERD is that traditional treatments over time, has a

> negative effect on important nutrient levels in the body. Treatment

> with antacids, H2 receptor antagonists such as famotidine (Pepcid)

> or nizatidine (Axid), or prescription proton pump inhibitors (PPIs)

> such as omeprazole (Prilosec) or esomeprazole (Nexium), suppresses

> stomach acid (hydrochloric acid), which worsens the low stomach

> acid problem, and which over time leads to deficiencies of B12,

> minerals and to protein maldigestion.

>

 

and this from the same page:

> There is another factor in GERD problems that often are overlooked

> and untreated-H. pylori. H. pylori is a bacteria that is a primary

> cause of many gastritis cases in this country. Helicobacter pylori

> (H. pylori) is an important risk factor for inflammation and the

> development of peptic ulcer disease, and cancers of the stomach.(3)

> The role for H. pylori in the pathogenesis of GERD, has been

> suggested in a growing number of studies. However, the link between

> GERD and H. pylori is complex and there is conflicting evidence to

> whether it is a factor or not. It is my experience in looking at

> the correlation of H. Pylori and GERD, that a number of patients

> with GERD, are positive for Helicobacter pylori infection. I

> believe it is an important factor to rule out, due to the long term

> consequences of H. pylori infections. Chronic H pylori infections

> are associated with lower levels of stomach acid(4) which I believe

> is part of the mechanism that contributes to GERD in some

> individuals. This is how it works. The bacterium H. Pylori secretes

> urease, an enzyme that plays a role in the bacterium’s ability to

> colonize the acidic gastric environment. Urease helps digest urea

> to produce ammonia and bicarbonate. The ammonia generated

> neutralizes gastric acid, which provides a more hospitable

> environment for the bacterium. While H. Pylori benefits from a more

> alkaline home, the ammonia produced, is toxic to gastric epithelial

> cells that produce stomach acid. The result is diminished gastric

> acid production and a more favorable environment for H.Pylori-a

> very clever mechanism that H.pylori operates to promote it’s survival.

>

 

But a lack of stomach acid allows for the putrifaction of proteins

in the stomach and farther down and that can cause histamine release

which can increase stomach acid, or so I've read. This potentially

adds another level of complexity, especially if there is an ulcer

which would be irritated by increased acid. And it's been shown that

strong emotions can increase stomach acid as well as irritability of

ulcers (they become more red and can bleed).

 

As for the apple cider vinegar, let me cop these words from http://

earthclinic.com/Remedies/acvinegar.html#ph :

> Apple Cider Vinegar in itself is alkaline because of its " ash "

> content, which means if the apple cider vinegar was burned, what is

> left over becomes ash. When you check for the pH of that ash and

> dissolve it with water, the content is alkaline. Whenever our body

> digests anything, it undergoes oxidation, which is similar to

> burning and the end result is that you can determine whether the

> end product was alkaline or acid. Apple Cider Vinegar has anti-

> fungal, anti-bacterial, and anti-viral properties, primarily coming

> from the malic acid and acetic acid portion of the vinegar. Apple

> cider vinegar acts as a buffer in the body because the acetic acid

> reacts with base or acid compounds to form an acetate, therefore

> rendering them chemically bioavailable for the body's utilization.

> Additionally, Apple Cider Vinegar can reduce the toxicity of

> certain compounds by converting the toxin into an acetate compound,

> which is less toxic. This is why they are ideal for insect bites

> and certain skin allergies. While Apple Cider vinegar in itself is

> considered alkaline, a chemically pure vinegar (acetic acid) is

> neither acid nor basic forming as it leaves no ash as the entire

> portion, when burned evaporates completely.

>

 

Well, that's it's purported global effect; the fact remains that it's

acidic as it hits the stomach. And I'm thinking that is the operative

agent. Unless of course, there is true hyperacidity. And if someone

should actually get their stomach acid measured, is that not just a

snapshot in time? Could these ppl have fluctuating readings, with

inconsistent production in light of the variables discussed in the

citations?

 

Honey, some anyway, is know to have antibacterial properties. And

vitamins and enzymes, according to Bragg.

And apples - well, we know they cure everything ;-).

 

Seems to be recognized now that the majority of ppl have declining

stomach acid with age and hypo is more common than hyper. A clue to

tell is to take a single tablet of betaine hydrochloride just at the

start of a meal. If that doesn't make you feel worse, and further, if

taking 2 doesn't make you feel worse, you're probably HCl deficient

and you should continue to supplement.

 

Any chemists out there wish to mix it up?

 

ann

 

 

 

On Feb 11, 2008, at 4:38 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

> Yes, but why does the apple cider vinegar and honey or even eating

> a slice

> of apple work so brilliantly for this condition? Michael

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of G Hudson

> Monday, February 11, 2008 11:51 AM

>

> Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

> Medicinal

>

> If (to borrow from my favorite Japanese TV cooking show) memory serves

> me correctly, when the stomach excretes too much acid over time, the

> acid damages the esophageal sphincter entering the stomach. After

> time, GERD results and the damage weakens the sphincter allowing acid

> to easily transfer into the esophagus damaging cells above the Z-line.

> If that continues too long, esophageal damage can result - possibly

> leading to Barrett's esophagus and possibly esophageal adenocarcinoma

> in rare cases (but now that's really stretching my memory to the

> max. ;-)

>

> Geoff

>

> @ <%

> 40>

> , " Al Stone " <al wrote:

> >

> > I'm confounded by how GERD is being described in terms of the

> stomach's

> > chemistry. GERD is a reflux issue, this is a peristaltic

> disorder, not

> > chemistry.

> >

> > Am I missing something?

> >

> > On Feb 10, 2008 7:05 AM, Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

> >

> > > I fully agree but have you considered that one of the

> explanations about

> > > GERD is actually a defiiency of Stomach acid? So you can

> neutralize

> > > stomach

> > > acid with antacids and relieve the symptoms or stimulate more with

> bitters

> > > and treat the cause. Michael Tierra

> > >

> > >

> >

> > --

> > , DAOM

> > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> >

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Feb 11, 2008 1:38 PM, Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

 

> Yes, but why does the apple cider vinegar and honey or even eating a

> slice

> of apple work so brilliantly for this condition? Michael

>

 

 

 

 

Perhaps the sour vinegar calms the Liver so the Stomach qi descends

normally. Maybe the sweetness of the honey or apple too can calm the

Wood/Earth relationship.

 

I'd be interested in trying this out. Seems like an easy enough test. :)

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

shang han lun

 

 

On Feb 11, 2008, at 4:39 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

> What is SHL?

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

> Monday, February 11, 2008 12:09 PM

>

> Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

> Medicinal

>

> Zev

> I think the SHL it self proves what micheal is saying to be true

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's right -- it is a chemical reaction. MT

 

 

 

On Behalf Of A Brameier

Monday, February 11, 2008 4:54 PM

 

Re: Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

Medicinal

 

Michael, et al --

 

Probably b/c the situation is generally a product of low stomach acid.

 

From this page - http://www.functionalhealthsolutions.com/blog/?p=55

- I've extracted the following:

 

> While LES poblems present in a few individuals, the overriding issue

> underlying reflux problems is inflammation in the stomach, or

> gastritis, and low stomach acid, or hypochlorhyria. This is in direct

> opposition to mainstream approaches that traditionally expouse and

> promote the reflux problem as being related to high stomach acid

> production. Nothing could be further from the truth.

> The function of the LES is dependent on the acid/alkaline state of the

> stomach. A more alkaline stomach, or one that has a deficiency in

> hydrochloric acid production, contributes to a more relaxed LES that

> allows stomach contents to reflux through it. This is especially

> noticeable, after one has eaten. The stomach is full with insufficient

> stomach acid for digestion, which in turn, causes the LES to

> malfunction and allows the reflux of food and stomach acid. A

> sufficiency of stomach acid, on the other hand, keeps the LES nice and

> tight, not allowing any reflux. A significant problem associated GERD

> is that traditional treatments over time, has a negative effect on

> important nutrient levels in the body. Treatment with antacids, H2

> receptor antagonists such as famotidine (Pepcid) or nizatidine (Axid),

> or prescription proton pump inhibitors (PPIs) such as omeprazole

> (Prilosec) or esomeprazole (Nexium), suppresses stomach acid

> (hydrochloric acid), which worsens the low stomach acid problem, and

> which over time leads to deficiencies of B12, minerals and to protein

> maldigestion.

>

 

and this from the same page:

> There is another factor in GERD problems that often are overlooked and

> untreated-H. pylori. H. pylori is a bacteria that is a primary cause

> of many gastritis cases in this country. Helicobacter pylori (H.

> pylori) is an important risk factor for inflammation and the

> development of peptic ulcer disease, and cancers of the stomach.(3)

> The role for H. pylori in the pathogenesis of GERD, has been suggested

> in a growing number of studies. However, the link between GERD and H.

> pylori is complex and there is conflicting evidence to whether it is a

> factor or not. It is my experience in looking at the correlation of H.

> Pylori and GERD, that a number of patients with GERD, are positive for

> Helicobacter pylori infection. I believe it is an important factor to

> rule out, due to the long term consequences of H. pylori infections.

> Chronic H pylori infections are associated with lower levels of

> stomach acid(4) which I believe is part of the mechanism that

> contributes to GERD in some individuals. This is how it works. The

> bacterium H. Pylori secretes urease, an enzyme that plays a role in

> the bacterium's ability to colonize the acidic gastric environment.

> Urease helps digest urea to produce ammonia and bicarbonate. The

> ammonia generated neutralizes gastric acid, which provides a more

> hospitable environment for the bacterium. While H. Pylori benefits

> from a more alkaline home, the ammonia produced, is toxic to gastric

> epithelial cells that produce stomach acid. The result is diminished

> gastric acid production and a more favorable environment for

> H.Pylori-a very clever mechanism that H.pylori operates to promote

> it's survival.

>

 

But a lack of stomach acid allows for the putrifaction of proteins in the

stomach and farther down and that can cause histamine release which can

increase stomach acid, or so I've read. This potentially adds another level

of complexity, especially if there is an ulcer which would be irritated by

increased acid. And it's been shown that strong emotions can increase

stomach acid as well as irritability of ulcers (they become more red and can

bleed).

 

As for the apple cider vinegar, let me cop these words from http://

earthclinic.com/Remedies/acvinegar.html#ph :

> Apple Cider Vinegar in itself is alkaline because of its " ash "

> content, which means if the apple cider vinegar was burned, what is

> left over becomes ash. When you check for the pH of that ash and

> dissolve it with water, the content is alkaline. Whenever our body

> digests anything, it undergoes oxidation, which is similar to burning

> and the end result is that you can determine whether the end product

> was alkaline or acid. Apple Cider Vinegar has anti- fungal,

> anti-bacterial, and anti-viral properties, primarily coming from the

> malic acid and acetic acid portion of the vinegar. Apple cider vinegar

> acts as a buffer in the body because the acetic acid reacts with base

> or acid compounds to form an acetate, therefore rendering them

> chemically bioavailable for the body's utilization.

> Additionally, Apple Cider Vinegar can reduce the toxicity of certain

> compounds by converting the toxin into an acetate compound, which is

> less toxic. This is why they are ideal for insect bites and certain

> skin allergies. While Apple Cider vinegar in itself is considered

> alkaline, a chemically pure vinegar (acetic acid) is neither acid nor

> basic forming as it leaves no ash as the entire portion, when burned

> evaporates completely.

>

 

Well, that's it's purported global effect; the fact remains that it's acidic

as it hits the stomach. And I'm thinking that is the operative agent. Unless

of course, there is true hyperacidity. And if someone should actually get

their stomach acid measured, is that not just a snapshot in time? Could

these ppl have fluctuating readings, with inconsistent production in light

of the variables discussed in the citations?

 

Honey, some anyway, is know to have antibacterial properties. And vitamins

and enzymes, according to Bragg.

And apples - well, we know they cure everything ;-).

 

Seems to be recognized now that the majority of ppl have declining stomach

acid with age and hypo is more common than hyper. A clue to tell is to take

a single tablet of betaine hydrochloride just at the start of a meal. If

that doesn't make you feel worse, and further, if taking 2 doesn't make you

feel worse, you're probably HCl deficient and you should continue to

supplement.

 

Any chemists out there wish to mix it up?

 

ann

 

 

 

On Feb 11, 2008, at 4:38 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

> Yes, but why does the apple cider vinegar and honey or even eating a

> slice of apple work so brilliantly for this condition? Michael

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of G Hudson

> Monday, February 11, 2008 11:51 AM

>

> Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

> Medicinal

>

> If (to borrow from my favorite Japanese TV cooking show) memory serves

> me correctly, when the stomach excretes too much acid over time, the

> acid damages the esophageal sphincter entering the stomach. After

> time, GERD results and the damage weakens the sphincter allowing acid

> to easily transfer into the esophagus damaging cells above the Z-line.

> If that continues too long, esophageal damage can result - possibly

> leading to Barrett's esophagus and possibly esophageal adenocarcinoma

> in rare cases (but now that's really stretching my memory to the max.

> ;-)

>

> Geoff

>

> @ <%

> 40> , " Al Stone " <al wrote:

> >

> > I'm confounded by how GERD is being described in terms of the

> stomach's

> > chemistry. GERD is a reflux issue, this is a peristaltic

> disorder, not

> > chemistry.

> >

> > Am I missing something?

> >

> > On Feb 10, 2008 7:05 AM, Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

> >

> > > I fully agree but have you considered that one of the

> explanations about

> > > GERD is actually a defiiency of Stomach acid? So you can

> neutralize

> > > stomach

> > > acid with antacids and relieve the symptoms or stimulate more with

> bitters

> > > and treat the cause. Michael Tierra

> > >

> > >

> >

> > --

> > , DAOM

> > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> >

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Alon, but I wonder if you could say a few more words about this. If

you don't mind. MT

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of A Brameier

Monday, February 11, 2008 9:38 PM

 

Re: Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

Medicinal

 

 

 

shang han lun

 

On Feb 11, 2008, at 4:39 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

> What is SHL?

>

> _____

>

> @ <%40>

 

> [@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

> Monday, February 11, 2008 12:09 PM

> @ <%40>

 

> Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

> Medicinal

>

> Zev

> I think the SHL it self proves what micheal is saying to be true

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was responding to Al's question about the chemical and peristalsis

issues. Tums helps too. But, as with the honey, vinegar, apples,

bones, etc - aren't they just palliative?

 

Geoff

 

, " Michael Tierra "

<mtierra wrote:

>

> Yes, but why does the apple cider vinegar and honey or even eating a

slice

> of apple work so brilliantly for this condition? Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...