Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

February 12, 2008

The SHL itself is based on a few sentences in yellow emperor classics

Alon

February 12, 2008

To re-iterate the validity of using apple cider vinegar and the frequent

misdiagnosis of

hypo-acidity: I was diagnosed with a hiatus hernia at the age of 25 after

suffering from

chronic GERD for 7 years (incidentally the onset of GERD was during a time of

extreme

emotional duress, and I do believe that the constant exposure to acid caused the

LES to

become weakened, leading to the " hernia " .) I was able to control the condition

entirely

with diet (Healing With Whole Foods) and acupuncture for about 7 years.

Condition

returned during TCM school (emotional upset, anyone?) After an upper GI and a

negative

Barrett's and H-Pylori Dx, I opted to try PPI's out of desperation and lack of

will to commit

to the diet again. I became pregnant and stayed on them through my pregnancy.

3

months ago, I stopped taking the PPI's and began using apple cider vinegar after

meals

and before bed. To my amazement, it stops the reflux INSTANTLY, and the effects

last for

hours. I no longer reflux in my sleep ( a big problem, which lead to chronic

cough in the

past) . I have found that a straight teaspoon of vinegar is more effective than

combining it

with water and honey if the symptoms are acute. Acupuncture in conjunction (4

doors + 4

gates) provides long term results (or has in my case).

Laura Erlich, LAc

\ , " Michael Tierra " <mtierra

wrote:

>

> Thanks Alon, but I wonder if you could say a few more words about this. If

> you don't mind. MT

>

> _____

>

> On Behalf Of A Brameier

> Monday, February 11, 2008 9:38 PM

>

> Re: Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

> Medicinal

>

> shang han lun

>

> On Feb 11, 2008, at 4:39 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

>

> > What is SHL?

> >

> > _____

> >

> > @ <%40>

>

> > [@ <%40>

> ] On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

> > Monday, February 11, 2008 12:09 PM

> > @ <%40>

>

> > Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

> > Medicinal

> >

> > Zev

> > I think the SHL it self proves what micheal is saying to be true

> >

February 12, 2008

No, they are definitely not. Its been my experience that they are curative.

People do need to be more attentive to dietary issues but it seems to work

anyway. Michael

_____

On Behalf Of G Hudson

Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:59 AM

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

I was responding to Al's question about the chemical and peristalsis

issues. Tums helps too. But, as with the honey, vinegar, apples,

bones, etc - aren't they just palliative?

Geoff

@ <%40>

, " Michael Tierra "

<mtierra wrote:

>

> Yes, but why does the apple cider vinegar and honey or even eating a

slice

> of apple work so brilliantly for this condition? Michael

_____

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5273 Spam messages and set aside

3247 Newsletters for me

You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

February 12, 2008

I appreciate this. So I think its okay to occasionally at least " think out

of the box " and not get so utterly entangled in TCM 'jingoism' all of the

time. I love TCM and its theory but there are other ways that are sometimes

even more effective --- before i learned of the apple cider and vinegar

cure, I literally spent hours trying to pattern out patients conditions with

mixed results. I think its important to differentiate out constitutional

elements from achieving a pure symptomatic response with what is empirically

effective.

Now, we could try to figure out how Apple cider vinegar and honey is

explained in TCM. One obvious thing is that we are combining sour and sweet

-- liver and spleen entanglement is perhaps addressed by this remedy.

Michael www.planetherbs.com

_____

On Behalf Of laura_erlich

Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:29 AM

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

To re-iterate the validity of using apple cider vinegar and the frequent

misdiagnosis of

hypo-acidity: I was diagnosed with a hiatus hernia at the age of 25 after

suffering from

chronic GERD for 7 years (incidentally the onset of GERD was during a time

of extreme

emotional duress, and I do believe that the constant exposure to acid caused

the LES to

become weakened, leading to the " hernia " .) I was able to control the

condition entirely

with diet (Healing With Whole Foods) and acupuncture for about 7 years.

Condition

returned during TCM school (emotional upset, anyone?) After an upper GI and

a negative

Barrett's and H-Pylori Dx, I opted to try PPI's out of desperation and lack

of will to commit

to the diet again. I became pregnant and stayed on them through my

pregnancy. 3

months ago, I stopped taking the PPI's and began using apple cider vinegar

after meals

and before bed. To my amazement, it stops the reflux INSTANTLY, and the

effects last for

hours. I no longer reflux in my sleep ( a big problem, which lead to chronic

cough in the

past) . I have found that a straight teaspoon of vinegar is more effective

than combining it

with water and honey if the symptoms are acute. Acupuncture in conjunction

(4 doors + 4

gates) provides long term results (or has in my case).

Laura Erlich, LAc

\@ <%40>

, " Michael Tierra " <mtierra wrote:

>

> Thanks Alon, but I wonder if you could say a few more words about this. If

> you don't mind. MT

>

> ____

February 12, 2008

The irony of this whole discussion is that in the land of Ume-Boshi

they have some of the highest rates of stomach cancer.

Z

February 12, 2008

Alon,

What does that mean? It is my understanding that Zhang-Ji did not write most

of the formulas. He compiled what was around at the time. This shows that it

NOT just made up from a few lines of the neijing. There is a continuation of

thought in CM.

-Jason

_____

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:27 AM

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

The SHL itself is based on a few sentences in yellow emperor classics

Alon

February 12, 2008

Badly made shoyu with chemicals and sugar is one of the main causes. . .

On Feb 12, 2008, at 11:13 AM, znelms wrote:

> The irony of this whole discussion is that in the land of Ume-Boshi

> they have some of the highest rates of stomach cancer.

> Z

>

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

February 12, 2008

The SHL itself is based on a few sentences in yellow emperor classics

Alon

February 12, 2008

What? Please, what are you trying to say? Could you spell it out?

_____

On Behalf Of znelms

Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:13 AM

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

The irony of this whole discussion is that in the land of Ume-Boshi

they have some of the highest rates of stomach cancer.

Z

_____

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5275 Spam messages and set aside

3247 Newsletters for me

You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

February 12, 2008

Alon,

Do you have evidence to support your statement? I would like to hear more

about where you are coming from.

In my view, the SHL is based on many sources, only one of which in the

NeiJing. Some people explain it as a clinical manual where the NeiJing is a

theoretical manual. This is why there is little in the way of explanation -

it is assumed you know the basics already. One should also be aware that

there are many texts of that era that we no longer have. There were numerous

NeiJings (and WaiJings) i.e. Bai's NeiJing that we no longer have. The

medicine of that time had many sources and influences.

Therefore, if you are suggesting that Zhang-Ji just took a couple sentences

from the NeiJing and then just made up the rest, I would have to see more

evidence. He was a government official that had access to the imperial

libraries and compiled lots of material to make this text. Some even

question his clinical involvement. You can find many of his formulas in

previous books. Since theory is not the point of the text, one may have a

hard time putting it into full context. This is why one might only see a few

lines that match up with the NeiJing, and that is it. This by no means that

he just made up everything else.

Therefore, I don't think you can simply as you do. Although, if you have

some information that sheds more light on this text, please let us know.

Finally, I am not getting your point. Does what you suggest somehow give us

(now in the US) free reign to just make anything up that we want? Either

way, we know that Zhang-Ji was well read in medicine of that time. Our

situation in the US is just the opposite. Therefore, when such pontificators

really do not know basic CM I have a hard time taking any of their " new "

ideas seriously. Why should I?

-

_____

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:25 PM

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

The SHL itself is based on a few sentences in yellow emperor classics

Alon

February 12, 2008

Good point Jason

Zhong jing did expand on a set of preexisting formulas from two

sections of the Tang Ye Jing fa-ÌÀÒº¾·¨, erdan ¶þµ© and liushen Áù

Éñ¡£These were empirically based formulas developed during epidemic

outbreaks.

For a great discussion in English on this subject, you can look up

Medieval Chinese medicine The Dunhuang medical manuscripts,by

Vivienne Lo and Christopher Cullen. I suggest you go to the library

and barrow it because the price is just a little too much.

And if you can read Chinese you can get a copy of ¶Ø»ÍÒ½Ò©ÎÄÏ×¼ Ð£

for about 6 USD.

Gabe.

>

> Do you have evidence to support your statement? I would like to

hear more

> about where you are coming from.

>

> In my view, the SHL is based on many sources, only one of which in

the

> NeiJing. Some people explain it as a clinical manual where the

NeiJing is a

> theoretical manual. This is why there is little in the way of

explanation -

> it is assumed you know the basics already. One should also be

aware that

> there are many texts of that era that we no longer have. There

were numerous

> NeiJings (and WaiJings) i.e. Bai's NeiJing that we no longer have.

The

> medicine of that time had many sources and influences.

>

> Therefore, if you are suggesting that Zhang-Ji just took a couple

sentences

> from the NeiJing and then just made up the rest, I would have to

> evidence. He was a government official that had access to the

imperial

> libraries and compiled lots of material to make this text. Some

even

> question his clinical involvement. You can find many of his

formulas in

> previous books. Since theory is not the point of the text, one may

have a

> hard time putting it into full context. This is why one might only

see a few

> lines that match up with the NeiJing, and that is it. This by no

means that

> he just made up everything else.

>

> Therefore, I don't think you can simply as you do. Although, if

you have

> some information that sheds more light on this text, please let us

know.

>

> Finally, I am not getting your point. Does what you suggest

somehow give us

> (now in the US) free reign to just make anything up that we want?

Either

> way, we know that Zhang-Ji was well read in medicine of that time.

Our

> situation in the US is just the opposite. Therefore, when such

pontificators

> really do not know basic CM I have a hard time taking any of

their " new "

> ideas seriously. Why should I?

>

> -

>

> _____

>

> On Behalf Of Alon

Marcus

> Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:25 PM

>

> Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

Medicinal

>

> The SHL itself is based on a few sentences in yellow emperor

classics

> Alon

>

February 13, 2008

Jason

since the neijing is thought to be older, or at least compiled information form

earlier times, the idea of the 6 channels is not a very large part of it.

Perhaps I am mistaken but I been told that SHL was based on these lines in the

neijing. Is that Incorrect?

February 13, 2008

Zev

I thought is was the pickled foods, not the shoyu

February 13, 2008

Jason

Can you point me to any other-earlier text that has the 6 channel theoretical

construct?

Are you saying that someone like Michael with many years of practice, and i

assume also well read, cannot or does not have the right to express his

observations in CM lingo? You find modern correlations coming out of China all

the time with little challenge to these ideas, when it comes out of the mouth of

a westerners its immediately MSU. because CM is so flexible and the only thing

that matters, clinical outcome information, is so unreliable i do not have any

problem considering Michaels speculations more so or less than anyone elses.

February 13, 2008

Bad pickles, especially with chemical dyes, are of course also a

culprit.

Z'ev

On Feb 13, 2008, at 1:47 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

> Zev

> I thought is was the pickled foods, not the shoyu

>

February 13, 2008

Alon,

To clarify, my critique is not aimed at anyone on this list, especially

Michael. It is general stance, formulated to counter Michael's statement

that we need to be freer in our thinking.

As far as experience, years do buy you something, but anything should be

questioned. There are plenty of people that have practiced for 20+ years

whom don't really have a clue. Time does not guarantee you anything, but it

doesn't hurt :-).

I am also in no way suggesting that we should accept everything coming out

of China. IMO, the current state of China's medicine is very suspect. There

are many problems happening in the education system as well published

material. (That is though another discussion).

All new ideas must be judged. So how do we decide what is worthwhile. There

are many ways. Clinical experience trumps most things. However, as we see in

the West, we have 'free thinkers' creating ideas based on flimsy superficial

understanding of Chinese theory, without clinical validation to support

them. What we see in the West is that practitioners have poor educations and

start to riff. Quite simply, these creations do not interest me. Sorting out

clinical efficacy is a whole other issue that takes great skill and time.

Furthermore, I second Bob's musical analogy, for I was previous to CM, a

musician. Of course there is always the exception to the rule, i.e. someone

who creates a musical masterpiece without any music training. But by in

large this does not happen. Most masterpieces come from musicians that

practiced (and studied) very hard to get where they are. The great and most

influential rock guitarist from the 60's and 70's prove this point well.

Especially since rock and roll at times can seem effortless and 'simple.'

However, without giving away any hints about my musical taste, all of these

big names, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Jerry Garcia, Frank Zappa, Jimi

Hendrix, Jeff Beck, and Steve Howe worked their butts off, and dove deep

into music. I am not sure what Michael's point about the early Jazz

musicians(i.e. Bird, Davis, Coltrane, Joe Pass etc), but they also dove very

deeply into music- practiced very very hard. All were very innovative, yet

understood and practiced the music of the past.

Then we have a band like the Ramones (still great in some people's eyes).

These guys started playing their instruments and within 6 months were

playing at CBGB in New York. They represent the exception. You can judge if

they were genius or not. I think they were more about the vibe of the time,

and less bout their musical creations, that is debatable. However, I have

played with enough musicians to know how true this point is. Most of the

time those 'free jazz' players (with no musical training / technique)

produced nothing short of noise. Free Jazz was always a good haven for the

musician type who liked to party and not practice :-). But there was always

that rare gem that had something totally creative without really having the

chops. Usually free jazz required years of study of the basics. I

acknowledge both sides.

To bring this back to medicine. It seems we have a lot of free jazz players

in the West. Most of lack the fundamental chops. However, I have no problem

with Westerners (or Chinese) evolving the medicine, as long as they can back

up what they say with something (i.e. I have used this remedy for 20 years

on patients with XYZ and it works). Who can argue with that? But I differ

from Alon a bit; I do think that CM theory has a brilliant roadmap for

figuring out situations. I respect its understanding of the body and nature.

I think understanding this allows one to create something of value. Everyday

we create and add llib with formuals in the clinic. But Without the theory,

one is just throwing darts at a board, blindfolded. Yes you may hit the

bull's-eye eventually.

I am not opposed to development and far from a traditionalist. Although I

think there is a wealth of information in past and present literature that

is not represented in current mainstream textbooks.

Alon, I hope that answers your concerns,

-

_____

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Wednesday, February 13, 2008 3:03 PM

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

Jason

Can you point me to any other-earlier text that has the 6 channel

theoretical construct?

Are you saying that someone like Michael with many years of practice, and i

assume also well read, cannot or does not have the right to express his

observations in CM lingo? You find modern correlations coming out of China

all the time with little challenge to these ideas, when it comes out of the

mouth of a westerners its immediately MSU. because CM is so flexible and the

only thing that matters, clinical outcome information, is so unreliable i do

not have any problem considering Michaels speculations more so or less than

anyone elses.

February 13, 2008

Alon,

I think I addressed the history and influences of the SHL in a previous

post. Let me know if you need for info.

-Jason

_____

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:45 PM

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

Jason

since the neijing is thought to be older, or at least compiled information

form earlier times, the idea of the 6 channels is not a very large part of

it. Perhaps I am mistaken but I been told that SHL was based on these lines

in the neijing. Is that Incorrect?

February 13, 2008

Sure Michael, I'll spell it out.

My comment was merely a muse, but here goes.

1. Someone is operating under the usumption that eating Ume-boshi

neutralizes stomach acid, or whatever.

" I keep coming back to thinking about umeboshi plum, a near panacea in

Japanese folk medicine, considered the king of alkalinizers... "

2. Low stomach acid allows H. Pylori to proliferate.

" Chronic H pylori infections are associated with lower levels of

stomach acid(4) "

3. The proliferation of H. pylori can lead to a horrible case of the

nasties.

" Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori) is an important risk factor for

inflammation and the development of peptic ulcer disease, and cancers

of the stomach.(3) "

In other words, Eating Ume-Boshi leads to a more alkaline stomach. A

more alkaline stomach can lead to H. pylori proliferation. H. pylori

proliferation can lead to cancer.

The Japanese eat Ume-Boshi religiously for health. It's probably

great for many of them but considering their high rates of Stomach

cancer in Japan, the practice is questionable. In fact, the western

medical community believes that eating too many pickled or salted

foods causes stomach cancer. The Japanese overly consume both of

these.

I am not implying that Ume-Boshi " causes " cancer. What I am implying

is that perhaps it is not a panacea. Perhaps care should be used

with Ume-Boshi as that taken with any medicinal.

I do believe that Ume-Boshi is a powerful medicinal, but prudence

should be maintained when prescribing any herb regardless of whether

it's a food or not.

Having lived in Japan and seeing how they live, I feel that their

high rates of stomach cancer are more likely due to overwork, rigid

social constraints, and emotional repression rather than Ume-Boshi

consumption. None the less, it's something to consider.

Zach

, " Michael Tierra "

<mtierra wrote:

>

> What? Please, what are you trying to say? Could you spell it out?

>

> _____

>

> On Behalf Of znelms

> Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:13 AM

>

> Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

Medicinal

>

> The irony of this whole discussion is that in the land of Ume-Boshi

> they have some of the highest rates of stomach cancer.

> Z

>

> _____

>

> << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5275 Spam messages and set

aside

> 3247 Newsletters for me

> You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

>

February 14, 2008

Jason

In General i do agree with you and Bob, hopefully before one puts any

idea out there it has been extensively developed (although Michael's

statement is really nothing more than correlation in physiology not a

clinical statement). This has always been my criticism of many of

western authors writing on so many subjects, obviously without any way

of having experience is so many areas of medicine. You can hear the

naiveté in there tone.

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

alonmarcus

February 14, 2008

Jason

I am asking for 6 channel ideas not use of formulas. I think that is

the basis of SHL ideas and from what i know only found in neijing

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

alonmarcus

February 18, 2008

Hello All,

the use of the terms acid-alkaline regarding the use of umeboshi

plums is probably not as old as the use of the dried and pickled ume

plums themselves. As far as I know it was first used by the

macrobiotic-pioneers Ohashi, Aihara and others. I wonder how they

where classified traditionally before. What I know is, that the plum

itself is the same species as the one used to produce Wumei. They are

both picked in unripe stage, for Wumei they are then slowly roasted

till black, for Umeboshi they are sundried and pickled together with

Perilla leaf/Zi su ye.

Nina Zhao-Seiler

Praxis für Traditionelle Chinesische Medizin

Wilfriedstrasse 8

CH-8032 Zürich

Tel: +41 44 251 1331

Fax: +41 43 243 6990

ninaseiler

www.tcmherbs.org

February 18, 2008

There's an article by Bob Flaws about Wu mei (umeboshi) :

http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/mumeperilla.cfm

Interestingly, wu zhu yu is another fruit (evodia), which neutralizes

stomach acidity...

On the flip side, shan zha may increase the production of stomach acidity

and is cautioned for those with gastric/ peptic ulcers (Chen, Chen page 524)

This may be one reason why it can help with food stagnation.

btw, ume plum wine (umeshu) is really delicious.

You can get it at the Asian grocery store (Choya umeshu).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ume

K.

On Feb 18, 2008 4:48 AM, Nina Zhao-Seiler <ninaseiler wrote:

> Hello All,

>

> the use of the terms acid-alkaline regarding the use of umeboshi

> plums is probably not as old as the use of the dried and pickled ume

> plums themselves. As far as I know it was first used by the

> macrobiotic-pioneers Ohashi, Aihara and others. I wonder how they

> where classified traditionally before. What I know is, that the plum

> itself is the same species as the one used to produce Wumei. They are

> both picked in unripe stage, for Wumei they are then slowly roasted

> till black, for Umeboshi they are sundried and pickled together with

> Perilla leaf/Zi su ye.

>

> Nina Zhao-Seiler

> Praxis für Traditionelle Chinesische Medizin

> Wilfriedstrasse 8

> CH-8032 Zürich

> Tel: +41 44 251 1331

> Fax: +41 43 243 6990

> ninaseiler <ninaseiler%40gmx.ch>

> www.tcmherbs.org

>

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