Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

[Guest guest]

Hello to all CHAers from Rothenburg, Germany. Bob Damone, Honora

Wolfe, Simon Becker, and Tom Verheage are all here. Bob gave a very

good lecture to 300 people this morning. There are more than 1,000

acupuncturists gathered here for five fun-filled days. Other names

some might know: Eliabeth Rochat (FR), Lillian Bridges (USA),

Stephen Birch (N), Heiner Fruehauf (USA/D), Barbara Kirschbaum (D),

Yair Maimon (I), Angela Hicks (UK), Peter Mole (UK), and Richard

Blackwell (UK).IMO, although there are some few people here who

really understand and practice standard professional Chinese

medicine, most are into eclecticism and newageism. The key to being

popular is being some kind of spiritual guru, not a CM doctor. I

have heard some of the most dubious CM ideas here that I've heard in

some time. It's as if people didn't realize CM has continued to

evolve since the Warring States period. At this point, I'm fairly

convinced that there's little hope for high quality Chinese medicine

with a good professional use of standard terminology succeeding in

the West. The battle's lost. It was probably never winnable. The

lowest common denominator rules. Now to spend the next 20 years

twiddling my intellectual thumbs and staring at my navel. But they

throw a great dance party! With that said, I'M off to Crete for

vacation. Talk to you all in June.

 

Be well,

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

It would be interesting to know where these eclecticism and newageism ideas

are coming from.

 

Can you name names, so we know who's saying what and what we're up against.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 1189 612512

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

 

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only

for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not

disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this

e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or

shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication.

Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender

is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

19 May 2007 15:55

 

Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

 

Hello to all CHAers from Rothenburg, Germany. Bob Damone, Honora

Wolfe, Simon Becker, and Tom Verheage are all here. Bob gave a very

good lecture to 300 people this morning. There are more than 1,000

acupuncturists gathered here for five fun-filled days. Other names

some might know: Eliabeth Rochat (FR), Lillian Bridges (USA),

Stephen Birch (N), Heiner Fruehauf (USA/D), Barbara Kirschbaum (D),

Yair Maimon (I), Angela Hicks (UK), Peter Mole (UK), and Richard

Blackwell (UK).IMO, although there are some few people here who

really understand and practice standard professional Chinese

medicine, most are into eclecticism and newageism. The key to being

popular is being some kind of spiritual guru, not a CM doctor. I

have heard some of the most dubious CM ideas here that I've heard in

some time. It's as if people didn't realize CM has continued to

evolve since the Warring States period. At this point, I'm fairly

convinced that there's little hope for high quality Chinese medicine

with a good professional use of standard terminology succeeding in

the West. The battle's lost. It was probably never winnable. The

lowest common denominator rules. Now to spend the next 20 years

twiddling my intellectual thumbs and staring at my navel. But they

throw a great dance party! With that said, I'M off to Crete for

vacation. Talk to you all in June.

 

Be well,

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Bob,

 

from which intellectual thumbs you are speaking ?

Yours ?

 

I'll never forget one of my lectures presented by you, years ago,I

think, it was in Mannheim/GER, it was the most " spiritual guru " staff

I ever heard.

Sorry for that !

 

 

Karin,

participant and medical " chairwoman " of the congress in Rothenburg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> Hello to all CHAers from Rothenburg, Germany. Bob Damone, Honora

> Wolfe, Simon Becker, and Tom Verheage are all here. Bob gave a very

> good lecture to 300 people this morning. There are more than 1,000

> acupuncturists gathered here for five fun-filled days. Other names

> some might know: Eliabeth Rochat (FR), Lillian Bridges (USA),

> Stephen Birch (N), Heiner Fruehauf (USA/D), Barbara Kirschbaum (D),

> Yair Maimon (I), Angela Hicks (UK), Peter Mole (UK), and Richard

> Blackwell (UK).IMO, although there are some few people here who

> really understand and practice standard professional Chinese

> medicine, most are into eclecticism and newageism. The key to being

> popular is being some kind of spiritual guru, not a CM doctor. I

> have heard some of the most dubious CM ideas here that I've heard in

> some time. It's as if people didn't realize CM has continued to

> evolve since the Warring States period. At this point, I'm fairly

> convinced that there's little hope for high quality Chinese medicine

> with a good professional use of standard terminology succeeding in

> the West. The battle's lost. It was probably never winnable. The

> lowest common denominator rules. Now to spend the next 20 years

> twiddling my intellectual thumbs and staring at my navel. But they

> throw a great dance party! With that said, I'M off to Crete for

> vacation. Talk to you all in June.

>

> Be well,

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

Bob,

I'm really sad to hear about your observations. Of course one of the

reasons CM became popular in the U.S. is because it was embraced early

on by " hippies " and new agers. One of the schools I attended even had

to tell some students to stop bringing their crystals and such to

student clinic. Nonetheless, I think most U.S. practitioners are

seriously dedicated to delivering CM as a professional medical

paradigm whether that is TCM, CCM, 5 element, etc. Certainly that is

reflected in the conversations here at CHA forum. Chaeer up!! There

may still be hope!!

 

We will still have to work hard at educating the public and the

authorities (this cGMP, codex, FDA, big pharma thing makes my Yang

rise), but I believe that a firm resolve to protect the integrity of

CM will pay off. There are some who have a vested interest in

undermining (while, at the same time, usurping) our medicine. It

doesn't help when there are CM " doctors " out there who don't realize

the harm they do to the profession by being a little to " woo-woo " . I'm

not opposed to woo-woo per-se, but it has no business trying to be

part of CM. (IMO)

 

Have fun in Crete!!

 

Attilio,

In case you are unfamiliar with the many " new age " healing techniques,

just do a search on healing crystals. You will quickly get the idea. I

would not want to take the same approach as some critics of TCM and

discount offhand the efficacy of such " new age " health treatments just

out of bias or ignorance. I just don't think they have a place in CM.

To many, Medical Qi Gong is pretty woo-woo or new agey. It's the one

branch of CM that the general public looks at and thinks, " huh?? " Any

thoughts??

 

Warm regards,

dr.w

[Guest guest]

Rothenburg is becoming the mekka of TCM in Europe. It's a fantastic

congress in a beautiful environment. Lots of speakers on lots of topics.

I understand where Bob is coming from with his comments below. He

works hard to convey professional contemporary Chinese medicine as it

is practised in China. There is a lack of standardization as to how

Chinese medicine is practised in Europe today. Many people throw in

their own ideas.

I personally don't really have an issue with that. As long as people

state that it is their own experience and as long as it works in the

clinic, it's all right with me.

More specifically, I think Bob Flaws was talking about emotions in

Chinese medicine. During his lecture, Bob emphasized that in modern

Chinese psychiatric medicine, emotions do not resonate with the organs

like suggested in the Nei Jing. Bob stated that things that do not

work in the clinic get filtered out by generations of practitioners- I

believe one of the main reasons why Bob favours modern Chinese medicine.

There were speakers at the congress, like Elisabeth

Rochat-de-la-Vallée and Yair Maimon who do emphasize the correlations

between the emotions (and the ben shen) with the organs. Elisabeth

quotes passages from classical Daoist texts (like the Huai Nan zi),

and Yair seemed to talk more from his personal experience. Yair is a

very hearty person who is specialized in emotional work and he has his

own theories about that. I can only applaud that, I don't believe

there is a right or wrong in these scenarios. CM is a tool in a

therapist's toolbox, and I don't think there are any rules involved.

 

Those who favour more orthodox Chinese medicine also get served at

Rothenburg, but it should be clear by now that there is no such thing

as orthodox Chinese medicine. Some favour the Shang Han Lun and the

Nei Jing, some the Spleen-Stomach school, some a Daoist tradition,

some practise Richard Tan's balance method (he always draws a big

crowd in Rothenburg), some preferred the 5 days of workshops on

Japanese acupuncture, and some like microsystems, for example the

Yamamoto New Scalp Acupuncture system (which I have found to be very

effective in clinical practice). I saw there were discussions these

last few days on CHA on plurality within Chinese medicine. I haven't

read them but Bob's remarks fall within the discussion of pluralism, I

believe.

 

At the congress, Heiner Fruehauf presented some examples from the Fire

School of treatment from the Shang Han Lun. One doctor from the

Chengdu Uni of TCM still practices in this tradition. They bring the

fire back to its source, and fu zi is a main ingredient in these

formulae. He presented some pictures of handwritten prescriptions that

contained monster dosages of fu zi (90g, up to 250g). The thing is,

even when there is replete fire, they will still use these high

dosages of fu zi. Don't try this at home, Heiner said. One of the

doctors he talked about saw 400 patients per day. I thought Feng Ye

had the record : )

 

Barbara Kirschbaum lectured on the treatment of MS. Mainly with herbs,

as she found that acupuncture was not that effective. She focuses on

the beginning stages, where treatment may be able to prevent

deterioration to full-blown MS. She does not get good results when the

system has developed into liver blood kidney yin vacuity (when the

wilting starts). She has never seen it develop in

to a yang vacuity, although I have.

 

Liu Jie from Tianjin presented his family style of acupuncture (16

generations).

 

For those interested in Qi Gong and Yang Sheng, Gordon Faulkner was

there to accomodate those needs in his typical humorous style. And he

drew more smiles when he appeared in his kilt on the evening of the

party.

 

Elisabeth's lecture on the origin of emotions in the Daoist world view

was very inspiring. Due to traffic jams I missed half of the lecture,

sadly. Elisabeth talks about aligning yourself with the forces of the

five phases, so the ben shen may resonate with these heavenly forces

and emotions are regulated. Treatment of the ben shen is not often

discussed within Chinese medicine, but there are people that do get

results.

 

Further along this line, there was also an open discussion on the role

that we as therapists play in the healing process. This kind of

discussion is held every year and is called DaDaDao. Very nice. As

means of introduction we talked about a book and film that explores

healing as it occurs in various cultures. By a German fellow (I forgot

his name) who healed his own paralysis by focusing his mind to get rid

of the pain. Even today, his X-rays still show his broken back, but he

can walk. The consensus seemed to be that the therapeutic process is

still very much shamanistic, and that there are greater forces at play

than we can imagine. Why do people come to us, why do some get better,

some not? The word karma was mentioned a few times (including by me )

 

All in all, a wonderful congress. Next year's congress is dedicated to

Sun Si-Miao, and the themes are " TCM- Medicine of the future " ,

auriculotherapy and pediatrics. Confirmed speakers are Debra Betts,

Julian Scott, Alex Tiberi, our friend Eric Brand who will talk about

maximizing granule efficacy, Craig Mitchell, Barbara Kirschbaum,

Stephen Birch, Arnaud Versluys, and perhaps Ted Kaptchuck, Jeffery

Yuen and Steven Clavey. I find it so much fun to talk to people and

listen to what they do and how they do it- I'm there to learn.

 

Best,

 

Tom.

 

 

 

 

>

>

> On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

> 19 May 2007 15:55

>

> Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

>

>

>

> Hello to all CHAers from Rothenburg, Germany. Bob Damone, Honora

> Wolfe, Simon Becker, and Tom Verheage are all here. Bob gave a very

> good lecture to 300 people this morning. There are more than 1,000

> acupuncturists gathered here for five fun-filled days. Other names

> some might know: Eliabeth Rochat (FR), Lillian Bridges (USA),

> Stephen Birch (N), Heiner Fruehauf (USA/D), Barbara Kirschbaum (D),

> Yair Maimon (I), Angela Hicks (UK), Peter Mole (UK), and Richard

> Blackwell (UK).IMO, although there are some few people here who

> really understand and practice standard professional Chinese

> medicine, most are into eclecticism and newageism. The key to being

> popular is being some kind of spiritual guru, not a CM doctor. I

> have heard some of the most dubious CM ideas here that I've heard in

> some time. It's as if people didn't realize CM has continued to

> evolve since the Warring States period. At this point, I'm fairly

> convinced that there's little hope for high quality Chinese medicine

> with a good professional use of standard terminology succeeding in

> the West. The battle's lost. It was probably never winnable. The

> lowest common denominator rules. Now to spend the next 20 years

> twiddling my intellectual thumbs and staring at my navel. But they

> throw a great dance party! With that said, I'M off to Crete for

> vacation. Talk to you all in June.

>

> Be well,

>

> Bob

>

 

[Guest guest]

Tom

Sounds like a very energetic and interesting meeting

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Tom Verhaeghe

Monday, May 21, 2007 2:22 AM

Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

Rothenburg is becoming the mekka of TCM in Europe. It's a fantastic

congress in a beautiful environment. Lots of speakers on lots of topics.

I understand where Bob is coming from with his comments below. He

works hard to convey professional contemporary Chinese medicine as it

is practised in China. There is a lack of standardization as to how

Chinese medicine is practised in Europe today. Many people throw in

their own ideas.

I personally don't really have an issue with that. As long as people

state that it is their own experience and as long as it works in the

clinic, it's all right with me.

More specifically, I think Bob Flaws was talking about emotions in

Chinese medicine. During his lecture, Bob emphasized that in modern

Chinese psychiatric medicine, emotions do not resonate with the organs

like suggested in the Nei Jing. Bob stated that things that do not

work in the clinic get filtered out by generations of practitioners- I

believe one of the main reasons why Bob favours modern Chinese medicine.

There were speakers at the congress, like Elisabeth

Rochat-de-la-Vallée and Yair Maimon who do emphasize the correlations

between the emotions (and the ben shen) with the organs. Elisabeth

quotes passages from classical Daoist texts (like the Huai Nan zi),

and Yair seemed to talk more from his personal experience. Yair is a

very hearty person who is specialized in emotional work and he has his

own theories about that. I can only applaud that, I don't believe

there is a right or wrong in these scenarios. CM is a tool in a

therapist's toolbox, and I don't think there are any rules involved.

 

Those who favour more orthodox Chinese medicine also get served at

Rothenburg, but it should be clear by now that there is no such thing

as orthodox Chinese medicine. Some favour the Shang Han Lun and the

Nei Jing, some the Spleen-Stomach school, some a Daoist tradition,

some practise Richard Tan's balance method (he always draws a big

crowd in Rothenburg), some preferred the 5 days of workshops on

Japanese acupuncture, and some like microsystems, for example the

Yamamoto New Scalp Acupuncture system (which I have found to be very

effective in clinical practice). I saw there were discussions these

last few days on CHA on plurality within Chinese medicine. I haven't

read them but Bob's remarks fall within the discussion of pluralism, I

believe.

 

At the congress, Heiner Fruehauf presented some examples from the Fire

School of treatment from the Shang Han Lun. One doctor from the

Chengdu Uni of TCM still practices in this tradition. They bring the

fire back to its source, and fu zi is a main ingredient in these

formulae. He presented some pictures of handwritten prescriptions that

contained monster dosages of fu zi (90g, up to 250g). The thing is,

even when there is replete fire, they will still use these high

dosages of fu zi. Don't try this at home, Heiner said. One of the

doctors he talked about saw 400 patients per day. I thought Feng Ye

had the record : )

 

Barbara Kirschbaum lectured on the treatment of MS. Mainly with herbs,

as she found that acupuncture was not that effective. She focuses on

the beginning stages, where treatment may be able to prevent

deterioration to full-blown MS. She does not get good results when the

system has developed into liver blood kidney yin vacuity (when the

wilting starts). She has never seen it develop in

to a yang vacuity, although I have.

 

Liu Jie from Tianjin presented his family style of acupuncture (16

generations).

 

For those interested in Qi Gong and Yang Sheng, Gordon Faulkner was

there to accomodate those needs in his typical humorous style. And he

drew more smiles when he appeared in his kilt on the evening of the

party.

 

Elisabeth's lecture on the origin of emotions in the Daoist world view

was very inspiring. Due to traffic jams I missed half of the lecture,

sadly. Elisabeth talks about aligning yourself with the forces of the

five phases, so the ben shen may resonate with these heavenly forces

and emotions are regulated. Treatment of the ben shen is not often

discussed within Chinese medicine, but there are people that do get

results.

 

Further along this line, there was also an open discussion on the role

that we as therapists play in the healing process. This kind of

discussion is held every year and is called DaDaDao. Very nice. As

means of introduction we talked about a book and film that explores

healing as it occurs in various cultures. By a German fellow (I forgot

his name) who healed his own paralysis by focusing his mind to get rid

of the pain. Even today, his X-rays still show his broken back, but he

can walk. The consensus seemed to be that the therapeutic process is

still very much shamanistic, and that there are greater forces at play

than we can imagine. Why do people come to us, why do some get better,

some not? The word karma was mentioned a few times (including by me )

 

All in all, a wonderful congress. Next year's congress is dedicated to

Sun Si-Miao, and the themes are " TCM- Medicine of the future " ,

auriculotherapy and pediatrics. Confirmed speakers are Debra Betts,

Julian Scott, Alex Tiberi, our friend Eric Brand who will talk about

maximizing granule efficacy, Craig Mitchell, Barbara Kirschbaum,

Stephen Birch, Arnaud Versluys, and perhaps Ted Kaptchuck, Jeffery

Yuen and Steven Clavey. I find it so much fun to talk to people and

listen to what they do and how they do it- I'm there to learn.

 

Best,

 

Tom.

 

>

>

> On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

> 19 May 2007 15:55

>

> Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

>

>

>

> Hello to all CHAers from Rothenburg, Germany. Bob Damone, Honora

> Wolfe, Simon Becker, and Tom Verheage are all here. Bob gave a very

> good lecture to 300 people this morning. There are more than 1,000

> acupuncturists gathered here for five fun-filled days. Other names

> some might know: Eliabeth Rochat (FR), Lillian Bridges (USA),

> Stephen Birch (N), Heiner Fruehauf (USA/D), Barbara Kirschbaum (D),

> Yair Maimon (I), Angela Hicks (UK), Peter Mole (UK), and Richard

> Blackwell (UK).IMO, although there are some few people here who

> really understand and practice standard professional Chinese

> medicine, most are into eclecticism and newageism. The key to being

> popular is being some kind of spiritual guru, not a CM doctor. I

> have heard some of the most dubious CM ideas here that I've heard in

> some time. It's as if people didn't realize CM has continued to

> evolve since the Warring States period. At this point, I'm fairly

> convinced that there's little hope for high quality Chinese medicine

> with a good professional use of standard terminology succeeding in

> the West. The battle's lost. It was probably never winnable. The

> lowest common denominator rules. Now to spend the next 20 years

> twiddling my intellectual thumbs and staring at my navel. But they

> throw a great dance party! With that said, I'M off to Crete for

> vacation. Talk to you all in June.

>

> Be well,

>

> Bob

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think one of the problems with this year's program is the theme,

" psyche and soma " , which, first of all, would never be expressed in

this fashion in China, it is clearly a metaphor from Western

psychology. When discussing spirit and emotions, there is much more

room for interpretation then, say, a symposium on gynecology or

respiratory disorders. This could clearly be frustrating, and could

lead to what is actually practiced in mainland China, both modern and

historic, being discussed in the same light as psychological

archetypes that are borrowed from Jungian psychology. Then, the

interpretive obscures what is actually being practiced in Chinese

medicine and recorded in the textbooks, journals and classical

literature.

 

Many of the interpretive approaches come from Europe, which after all

has a much stronger history (than the U.S.) in alternative approaches

such as homeopathy, Jungian psychology, phytotherapy and naturopathic

medicine. It is human tendency to want to relate new teachings to

one's own orientation and background, and modern Chinese medicine may

be too somatic for some. However, we owe ourselves to learn Chinese

medicine as the Chinese themselves have developed it, both modern and

historical, before superimposing our own biases on it.

 

Here in San Diego at Pacific Symposium, I've sat through shamanistic

five element wilderness classes, one needle acupuncture cures for

spiritual disorders, color healing and Egyptian esoteric tomes, and

evolutionary world healing discourses, all in the name of Chinese

medicine all packed rooms (several hundred) whereas actual lectures

on Chinese medicine had a handful of participants, even famous

speakers. A great speaker like Paul Unschuld could only draw a small

crowd for his lectures.

 

 

 

On May 21, 2007, at 7:13 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> Tom

> Sounds like a very energetic and interesting meeting

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

> Tom Verhaeghe

>

> Monday, May 21, 2007 2:22 AM

> Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

>

> Rothenburg is becoming the mekka of TCM in Europe. It's a fantastic

> congress in a beautiful environment. Lots of speakers on lots of

> topics.

> I understand where Bob is coming from with his comments below. He

> works hard to convey professional contemporary Chinese medicine as it

> is practised in China. There is a lack of standardization as to how

> Chinese medicine is practised in Europe today. Many people throw in

> their own ideas.

> I personally don't really have an issue with that. As long as people

> state that it is their own experience and as long as it works in the

> clinic, it's all right with me.

> More specifically, I think Bob Flaws was talking about emotions in

> Chinese medicine. During his lecture, Bob emphasized that in modern

> Chinese psychiatric medicine, emotions do not resonate with the organs

> like suggested in the Nei Jing. Bob stated that things that do not

> work in the clinic get filtered out by generations of practitioners- I

> believe one of the main reasons why Bob favours modern Chinese

> medicine.

> There were speakers at the congress, like Elisabeth

> Rochat-de-la-Vallée and Yair Maimon who do emphasize the correlations

> between the emotions (and the ben shen) with the organs. Elisabeth

> quotes passages from classical Daoist texts (like the Huai Nan zi),

> and Yair seemed to talk more from his personal experience. Yair is a

> very hearty person who is specialized in emotional work and he has his

> own theories about that. I can only applaud that, I don't believe

> there is a right or wrong in these scenarios. CM is a tool in a

> therapist's toolbox, and I don't think there are any rules involved.

>

> Those who favour more orthodox Chinese medicine also get served at

> Rothenburg, but it should be clear by now that there is no such thing

> as orthodox Chinese medicine. Some favour the Shang Han Lun and the

> Nei Jing, some the Spleen-Stomach school, some a Daoist tradition,

> some practise Richard Tan's balance method (he always draws a big

> crowd in Rothenburg), some preferred the 5 days of workshops on

> Japanese acupuncture, and some like microsystems, for example the

> Yamamoto New Scalp Acupuncture system (which I have found to be very

> effective in clinical practice). I saw there were discussions these

> last few days on CHA on plurality within Chinese medicine. I haven't

> read them but Bob's remarks fall within the discussion of pluralism, I

> believe.

>

> At the congress, Heiner Fruehauf presented some examples from the Fire

> School of treatment from the Shang Han Lun. One doctor from the

> Chengdu Uni of TCM still practices in this tradition. They bring the

> fire back to its source, and fu zi is a main ingredient in these

> formulae. He presented some pictures of handwritten prescriptions that

> contained monster dosages of fu zi (90g, up to 250g). The thing is,

> even when there is replete fire, they will still use these high

> dosages of fu zi. Don't try this at home, Heiner said. One of the

> doctors he talked about saw 400 patients per day. I thought Feng Ye

> had the record : )

>

> Barbara Kirschbaum lectured on the treatment of MS. Mainly with herbs,

> as she found that acupuncture was not that effective. She focuses on

> the beginning stages, where treatment may be able to prevent

> deterioration to full-blown MS. She does not get good results when the

> system has developed into liver blood kidney yin vacuity (when the

> wilting starts). She has never seen it develop in

> to a yang vacuity, although I have.

>

> Liu Jie from Tianjin presented his family style of acupuncture (16

> generations).

>

> For those interested in Qi Gong and Yang Sheng, Gordon Faulkner was

> there to accomodate those needs in his typical humorous style. And he

> drew more smiles when he appeared in his kilt on the evening of the

> party.

>

> Elisabeth's lecture on the origin of emotions in the Daoist world view

> was very inspiring. Due to traffic jams I missed half of the lecture,

> sadly. Elisabeth talks about aligning yourself with the forces of the

> five phases, so the ben shen may resonate with these heavenly forces

> and emotions are regulated. Treatment of the ben shen is not often

> discussed within Chinese medicine, but there are people that do get

> results.

>

> Further along this line, there was also an open discussion on the role

> that we as therapists play in the healing process. This kind of

> discussion is held every year and is called DaDaDao. Very nice. As

> means of introduction we talked about a book and film that explores

> healing as it occurs in various cultures. By a German fellow (I forgot

> his name) who healed his own paralysis by focusing his mind to get rid

> of the pain. Even today, his X-rays still show his broken back, but he

> can walk. The consensus seemed to be that the therapeutic process is

> still very much shamanistic, and that there are greater forces at play

> than we can imagine. Why do people come to us, why do some get better,

> some not? The word karma was mentioned a few times (including by

> me )

>

> All in all, a wonderful congress. Next year's congress is dedicated to

> Sun Si-Miao, and the themes are " TCM- Medicine of the future " ,

> auriculotherapy and pediatrics. Confirmed speakers are Debra Betts,

> Julian Scott, Alex Tiberi, our friend Eric Brand who will talk about

> maximizing granule efficacy, Craig Mitchell, Barbara Kirschbaum,

> Stephen Birch, Arnaud Versluys, and perhaps Ted Kaptchuck, Jeffery

> Yuen and Steven Clavey. I find it so much fun to talk to people and

> listen to what they do and how they do it- I'm there to learn.

>

> Best,

>

> Tom.

>

> >

> >

> > On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

> > 19 May 2007 15:55

> >

> > Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

> >

> >

> >

> > Hello to all CHAers from Rothenburg, Germany. Bob Damone, Honora

> > Wolfe, Simon Becker, and Tom Verheage are all here. Bob gave a very

> > good lecture to 300 people this morning. There are more than 1,000

> > acupuncturists gathered here for five fun-filled days. Other names

> > some might know: Eliabeth Rochat (FR), Lillian Bridges (USA),

> > Stephen Birch (N), Heiner Fruehauf (USA/D), Barbara Kirschbaum (D),

> > Yair Maimon (I), Angela Hicks (UK), Peter Mole (UK), and Richard

> > Blackwell (UK).IMO, although there are some few people here who

> > really understand and practice standard professional Chinese

> > medicine, most are into eclecticism and newageism. The key to being

> > popular is being some kind of spiritual guru, not a CM doctor. I

> > have heard some of the most dubious CM ideas here that I've heard in

> > some time. It's as if people didn't realize CM has continued to

> > evolve since the Warring States period. At this point, I'm fairly

> > convinced that there's little hope for high quality Chinese medicine

> > with a good professional use of standard terminology succeeding in

> > the West. The battle's lost. It was probably never winnable. The

> > lowest common denominator rules. Now to spend the next 20 years

> > twiddling my intellectual thumbs and staring at my navel. But they

> > throw a great dance party! With that said, I'M off to Crete for

> > vacation. Talk to you all in June.

> >

> > Be well,

> >

> > Bob

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Tom,

Thank you for your complete coverage of the Rothenburg

conference. It gave me a good picture of a conference I've always

wanted to take part in, but could never find the time to travel to.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with your appraisal of innovation

being ok as long as it is based on experience. First of all, my

experience is that a majority of the time in seminars I've seen (see

my last e-mail), no reference at all is given to Chinese medicine's

roots or body of knowledge. And how are we able to tell what 'works'

in these practices? What are the criteria?

 

Innovation has to be built on history, experience and a body of

knowledge in the realm of medicine, whether it is an oral tradition

of shamanistic medicine, or a literate tradition such as Chinese or

Tibetan medicine. It cannot be based on a pastiche of ideas pasted

on to a few popular, interpretive Chinese medicine texts. As a

profession, we still lack literacy in medical Chinese, access to

journals in China, Japan and Korea, adequate history courses, or even

a complete grasp of the 'tools of the trade'. For example, texts on

pathomechanisms, one of the core tools of Chinese diagnosis are just

beginning to appear in English. I know that Bob Damone lectured on

this in Rothenburg. There are only two or three books on the

development of modern Chinese medicine in China, none required as far

as I know in mainstream CM colleges in the West.

 

I share many people's skepticism about some developments in

modern TCM in China, including integrative medicine that doesn't

include the tools of Chinese diagnosis. However, one can only

criticize these developments if one is conversant in what is actually

going on in these developments, not solely from an opinion of one

teacher or another.

 

 

On May 21, 2007, at 2:22 AM, Tom Verhaeghe wrote:

 

> Rothenburg is becoming the mekka of TCM in Europe. It's a fantastic

> congress in a beautiful environment. Lots of speakers on lots of

> topics.

> I understand where Bob is coming from with his comments below. He

> works hard to convey professional contemporary Chinese medicine as it

> is practised in China. There is a lack of standardization as to how

> Chinese medicine is practised in Europe today. Many people throw in

> their own ideas.

> I personally don't really have an issue with that. As long as people

> state that it is their own experience and as long as it works in the

> clinic, it's all right with me.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It's also worth noting that parts of Europe still hold onto their deep

rooted traditional beliefs. For example, the UK has a strong Pagan following

with it's own herbal medicine tradition. Religion in the UK has largely

fallen away in mainstream society. This has left a void which is being

filled by new age ideas, alternative religions, medicine and beliefs in

traditional philosophies that are native to that country. This is why

certain schools of TCM are stronger in the UK.

 

Like everything that's brought into a country, it has too adapt to fit in.

Whether it's western medicine in China, Chinese medicine in the UK, Western

food in China or Chinese food in England, American culture in Europe or

European culture in the US, it adapts and looses part of itself. Trying to

keep Chinese medicine 'intact' is a great ideal and something we must always

strive towards. However, it still must adapt to its surroundings. If you

look at the development of Chinese medicine in Asia, it too adapted to its

cultural, political and religious surroundings. Knowledge, new plants,

animal or mineral sources were imported in from other parts of Asia and even

the Middle East. All the large philosophies such as Daoism, Buddhism,

Confucianism and Communism have all impacted upon Chinese medicine.

 

Different schools of TCM idealise different parts of Chinese medicine's

history. Some look at the early development of Chinese medicine with it's

Shamanistic views, others later during its Buddhist transition, whilst

others like the way Confucianism shaped it. Today, it's not even Communism

that's shaping TCM, but rather western science. It's difficult to say how

Chinese medicine will change and adapt but I know one thing, it will change

for sure. I remember whilst I was in China, I spoke to one doctor I met in

and he said how he believed that in years to come Chinese medicine would be

imported back into China. I can see that too.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 1189 612512

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

 

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only

for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not

disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this

e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or

shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication.

Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender

is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

21 May 2007 16:09

 

Re: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

 

I think one of the problems with this year's program is the theme,

" psyche and soma " , which, first of all, would never be expressed in

this fashion in China, it is clearly a metaphor from Western

psychology. When discussing spirit and emotions, there is much more

room for interpretation then, say, a symposium on gynecology or

respiratory disorders. This could clearly be frustrating, and could

lead to what is actually practiced in mainland China, both modern and

historic, being discussed in the same light as psychological

archetypes that are borrowed from Jungian psychology. Then, the

interpretive obscures what is actually being practiced in Chinese

medicine and recorded in the textbooks, journals and classical

literature.

 

Many of the interpretive approaches come from Europe, which after all

has a much stronger history (than the U.S.) in alternative approaches

such as homeopathy, Jungian psychology, phytotherapy and naturopathic

medicine. It is human tendency to want to relate new teachings to

one's own orientation and background, and modern Chinese medicine may

be too somatic for some. However, we owe ourselves to learn Chinese

medicine as the Chinese themselves have developed it, both modern and

historical, before superimposing our own biases on it.

 

Here in San Diego at Pacific Symposium, I've sat through shamanistic

five element wilderness classes, one needle acupuncture cures for

spiritual disorders, color healing and Egyptian esoteric tomes, and

evolutionary world healing discourses, all in the name of Chinese

medicine all packed rooms (several hundred) whereas actual lectures

on Chinese medicine had a handful of participants, even famous

speakers. A great speaker like Paul Unschuld could only draw a small

crowd for his lectures.

 

 

On May 21, 2007, at 7:13 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> Tom

> Sounds like a very energetic and interesting meeting

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

> Tom Verhaeghe

> @ <%40>

 

> Monday, May 21, 2007 2:22 AM

> Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

>

> Rothenburg is becoming the mekka of TCM in Europe. It's a fantastic

> congress in a beautiful environment. Lots of speakers on lots of

> topics.

> I understand where Bob is coming from with his comments below. He

> works hard to convey professional contemporary Chinese medicine as it

> is practised in China. There is a lack of standardization as to how

> Chinese medicine is practised in Europe today. Many people throw in

> their own ideas.

> I personally don't really have an issue with that. As long as people

> state that it is their own experience and as long as it works in the

> clinic, it's all right with me.

> More specifically, I think Bob Flaws was talking about emotions in

> Chinese medicine. During his lecture, Bob emphasized that in modern

> Chinese psychiatric medicine, emotions do not resonate with the organs

> like suggested in the Nei Jing. Bob stated that things that do not

> work in the clinic get filtered out by generations of practitioners- I

> believe one of the main reasons why Bob favours modern Chinese

> medicine.

> There were speakers at the congress, like Elisabeth

> Rochat-de-la-Vallée and Yair Maimon who do emphasize the correlations

> between the emotions (and the ben shen) with the organs. Elisabeth

> quotes passages from classical Daoist texts (like the Huai Nan zi),

> and Yair seemed to talk more from his personal experience. Yair is a

> very hearty person who is specialized in emotional work and he has his

> own theories about that. I can only applaud that, I don't believe

> there is a right or wrong in these scenarios. CM is a tool in a

> therapist's toolbox, and I don't think there are any rules involved.

>

> Those who favour more orthodox Chinese medicine also get served at

> Rothenburg, but it should be clear by now that there is no such thing

> as orthodox Chinese medicine. Some favour the Shang Han Lun and the

> Nei Jing, some the Spleen-Stomach school, some a Daoist tradition,

> some practise Richard Tan's balance method (he always draws a big

> crowd in Rothenburg), some preferred the 5 days of workshops on

> Japanese acupuncture, and some like microsystems, for example the

> Yamamoto New Scalp Acupuncture system (which I have found to be very

> effective in clinical practice). I saw there were discussions these

> last few days on CHA on plurality within Chinese medicine. I haven't

> read them but Bob's remarks fall within the discussion of pluralism, I

> believe.

>

> At the congress, Heiner Fruehauf presented some examples from the Fire

> School of treatment from the Shang Han Lun. One doctor from the

> Chengdu Uni of TCM still practices in this tradition. They bring the

> fire back to its source, and fu zi is a main ingredient in these

> formulae. He presented some pictures of handwritten prescriptions that

> contained monster dosages of fu zi (90g, up to 250g). The thing is,

> even when there is replete fire, they will still use these high

> dosages of fu zi. Don't try this at home, Heiner said. One of the

> doctors he talked about saw 400 patients per day. I thought Feng Ye

> had the record : )

>

> Barbara Kirschbaum lectured on the treatment of MS. Mainly with herbs,

> as she found that acupuncture was not that effective. She focuses on

> the beginning stages, where treatment may be able to prevent

> deterioration to full-blown MS. She does not get good results when the

> system has developed into liver blood kidney yin vacuity (when the

> wilting starts). She has never seen it develop in

> to a yang vacuity, although I have.

>

> Liu Jie from Tianjin presented his family style of acupuncture (16

> generations).

>

> For those interested in Qi Gong and Yang Sheng, Gordon Faulkner was

> there to accomodate those needs in his typical humorous style. And he

> drew more smiles when he appeared in his kilt on the evening of the

> party.

>

> Elisabeth's lecture on the origin of emotions in the Daoist world view

> was very inspiring. Due to traffic jams I missed half of the lecture,

> sadly. Elisabeth talks about aligning yourself with the forces of the

> five phases, so the ben shen may resonate with these heavenly forces

> and emotions are regulated. Treatment of the ben shen is not often

> discussed within Chinese medicine, but there are people that do get

> results.

>

> Further along this line, there was also an open discussion on the role

> that we as therapists play in the healing process. This kind of

> discussion is held every year and is called DaDaDao. Very nice. As

> means of introduction we talked about a book and film that explores

> healing as it occurs in various cultures. By a German fellow (I forgot

> his name) who healed his own paralysis by focusing his mind to get rid

> of the pain. Even today, his X-rays still show his broken back, but he

> can walk. The consensus seemed to be that the therapeutic process is

> still very much shamanistic, and that there are greater forces at play

> than we can imagine. Why do people come to us, why do some get better,

> some not? The word karma was mentioned a few times (including by

> me )

>

> All in all, a wonderful congress. Next year's congress is dedicated to

> Sun Si-Miao, and the themes are " TCM- Medicine of the future " ,

> auriculotherapy and pediatrics. Confirmed speakers are Debra Betts,

> Julian Scott, Alex Tiberi, our friend Eric Brand who will talk about

> maximizing granule efficacy, Craig Mitchell, Barbara Kirschbaum,

> Stephen Birch, Arnaud Versluys, and perhaps Ted Kaptchuck, Jeffery

> Yuen and Steven Clavey. I find it so much fun to talk to people and

> listen to what they do and how they do it- I'm there to learn.

>

> Best,

>

> Tom.

>

> >

> > @ <%40>

 

> > [@

<%40> ] On Behalf Of

Bob Flaws

> > 19 May 2007 15:55

> > @ <%40>

 

> > Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

> >

> >

> >

> > Hello to all CHAers from Rothenburg, Germany. Bob Damone, Honora

> > Wolfe, Simon Becker, and Tom Verheage are all here. Bob gave a very

> > good lecture to 300 people this morning. There are more than 1,000

> > acupuncturists gathered here for five fun-filled days. Other names

> > some might know: Eliabeth Rochat (FR), Lillian Bridges (USA),

> > Stephen Birch (N), Heiner Fruehauf (USA/D), Barbara Kirschbaum (D),

> > Yair Maimon (I), Angela Hicks (UK), Peter Mole (UK), and Richard

> > Blackwell (UK).IMO, although there are some few people here who

> > really understand and practice standard professional Chinese

> > medicine, most are into eclecticism and newageism. The key to being

> > popular is being some kind of spiritual guru, not a CM doctor. I

> > have heard some of the most dubious CM ideas here that I've heard in

> > some time. It's as if people didn't realize CM has continued to

> > evolve since the Warring States period. At this point, I'm fairly

> > convinced that there's little hope for high quality Chinese medicine

> > with a good professional use of standard terminology succeeding in

> > the West. The battle's lost. It was probably never winnable. The

> > lowest common denominator rules. Now to spend the next 20 years

> > twiddling my intellectual thumbs and staring at my navel. But they

> > throw a great dance party! With that said, I'M off to Crete for

> > vacation. Talk to you all in June.

> >

> > Be well,

> >

> > Bob

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Undoubtedly true. However, I would say that in Chinese medicine's

spread through Korea, Japan, Southeast Asia and its influence on

Tibetan medicine, the cultural and linguistic barriers were much less

than with the West. Our very source texts in the first generation of

transmission were interpretive or poorly translated, so that the

essence of the subject itself risks being lost unless there is

stronger grounding in the subject itself. Chinese medicine shouldn't

just be a canvas for throwing any kind of paint on.

 

 

On May 21, 2007, at 10:39 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

 

> Like everything that's brought into a country, it has too adapt to

> fit in.

> Whether it's western medicine in China, Chinese medicine in the UK,

> Western

> food in China or Chinese food in England, American culture in

> Europe or

> European culture in the US, it adapts and looses part of itself.

> Trying to

> keep Chinese medicine 'intact' is a great ideal and something we

> must always

> strive towards. However, it still must adapt to its surroundings.

> If you

> look at the development of Chinese medicine in Asia, it too adapted

> to its

> cultural, political and religious surroundings. Knowledge, new plants,

> animal or mineral sources were imported in from other parts of Asia

> and even

> the Middle East. All the large philosophies such as Daoism, Buddhism,

> Confucianism and Communism have all impacted upon Chinese medicine.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I don't have a problem with practitioners mixing other alternative

modalities in with CM as long as they are very open and honest that

these are their own inperetations and not that of true CM. I was

greatly dissapointed when I signed up for my 160 hour CM psychology

class in fifth year college, only to discover that there was hardly

any CM taught! The teachers ideas were interesting and probably

clinically useful, but in terms of me understanding CM psyche, they

were useless. I requested that the administration change the name of

the course so that others wouldn't be mislead.

 

Just my thoughts,

Trevor

 

, " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> I think one of the problems with this year's program is the theme,

> " psyche and soma " , which, first of all, would never be expressed

in

> this fashion in China, it is clearly a metaphor from Western

> psychology. When discussing spirit and emotions, there is much

more

> room for interpretation then, say, a symposium on gynecology or

> respiratory disorders. This could clearly be frustrating, and

could

> lead to what is actually practiced in mainland China, both modern

and

> historic, being discussed in the same light as psychological

> archetypes that are borrowed from Jungian psychology. Then, the

> interpretive obscures what is actually being practiced in Chinese

> medicine and recorded in the textbooks, journals and classical

> literature.

>

> Many of the interpretive approaches come from Europe, which after

all

> has a much stronger history (than the U.S.) in alternative

approaches

> such as homeopathy, Jungian psychology, phytotherapy and

naturopathic

> medicine. It is human tendency to want to relate new teachings to

> one's own orientation and background, and modern Chinese medicine

may

> be too somatic for some. However, we owe ourselves to learn

Chinese

> medicine as the Chinese themselves have developed it, both modern

and

> historical, before superimposing our own biases on it.

>

> Here in San Diego at Pacific Symposium, I've sat through

shamanistic

> five element wilderness classes, one needle acupuncture cures for

> spiritual disorders, color healing and Egyptian esoteric tomes,

and

> evolutionary world healing discourses, all in the name of Chinese

> medicine all packed rooms (several hundred) whereas actual

lectures

> on Chinese medicine had a handful of participants, even famous

> speakers. A great speaker like Paul Unschuld could only draw a

small

> crowd for his lectures.

>

>

>

> On May 21, 2007, at 7:13 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

>

> > Tom

[Guest guest]

Zev

Do you think any of the electroacupuncture developments coming from the EU are

worthless?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Monday, May 21, 2007 9:10 AM

Re: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

Tom,

Thank you for your complete coverage of the Rothenburg

conference. It gave me a good picture of a conference I've always

wanted to take part in, but could never find the time to travel to.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with your appraisal of innovation

being ok as long as it is based on experience. First of all, my

experience is that a majority of the time in seminars I've seen (see

my last e-mail), no reference at all is given to Chinese medicine's

roots or body of knowledge. And how are we able to tell what 'works'

in these practices? What are the criteria?

 

Innovation has to be built on history, experience and a body of

knowledge in the realm of medicine, whether it is an oral tradition

of shamanistic medicine, or a literate tradition such as Chinese or

Tibetan medicine. It cannot be based on a pastiche of ideas pasted

on to a few popular, interpretive Chinese medicine texts. As a

profession, we still lack literacy in medical Chinese, access to

journals in China, Japan and Korea, adequate history courses, or even

a complete grasp of the 'tools of the trade'. For example, texts on

pathomechanisms, one of the core tools of Chinese diagnosis are just

beginning to appear in English. I know that Bob Damone lectured on

this in Rothenburg. There are only two or three books on the

development of modern Chinese medicine in China, none required as far

as I know in mainstream CM colleges in the West.

 

I share many people's skepticism about some developments in

modern TCM in China, including integrative medicine that doesn't

include the tools of Chinese diagnosis. However, one can only

criticize these developments if one is conversant in what is actually

going on in these developments, not solely from an opinion of one

teacher or another.

 

On May 21, 2007, at 2:22 AM, Tom Verhaeghe wrote:

 

> Rothenburg is becoming the mekka of TCM in Europe. It's a fantastic

> congress in a beautiful environment. Lots of speakers on lots of

> topics.

> I understand where Bob is coming from with his comments below. He

> works hard to convey professional contemporary Chinese medicine as it

> is practised in China. There is a lack of standardization as to how

> Chinese medicine is practised in Europe today. Many people throw in

> their own ideas.

> I personally don't really have an issue with that. As long as people

> state that it is their own experience and as long as it works in the

> clinic, it's all right with me.

 

[Guest guest]

Mmm, I guess the linguistic barriers were less, but they were still there.

They do use Chinese characters a lot in Asia, but hardly anyone speaks

Chinese. Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Tibet, etc all have their own alphabets.

It's not like in the west, where we use the Roman alphabet. My wife is from

South Korea and she speaks Mandarin, but that's not common at all. However,

I think geographically it was very important.

 

I agree that Chinese medicine shouldn't have western concepts just plugged

into it, like add ons. It has all the concepts it needs without adding

anything new. Everything is already there! I don't agree with the use of new

age terms being used in Chinese medicine. Even though when I first came into

TCM, I was a new age student with a keen interest to 'integrate' these new

age ideas into TCM. Since then, I keep them firmly apart!

 

The problem is that many practitioner like and actively try to integrate

different ideas into Chinese medicine. As I mentioned in my previous email,

the reason is there which creates the problem. Alas, I have no answer to

solve it.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 1189 612512

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

 

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only

for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not

disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this

e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or

shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication.

Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender

is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

21 May 2007 18:58

 

Re: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

 

Undoubtedly true. However, I would say that in Chinese medicine's

spread through Korea, Japan, Southeast Asia and its influence on

Tibetan medicine, the cultural and linguistic barriers were much less

than with the West. Our very source texts in the first generation of

transmission were interpretive or poorly translated, so that the

essence of the subject itself risks being lost unless there is

stronger grounding in the subject itself. Chinese medicine shouldn't

just be a canvas for throwing any kind of paint on.

 

 

On May 21, 2007, at 10:39 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

 

> Like everything that's brought into a country, it has too adapt to

> fit in.

> Whether it's western medicine in China, Chinese medicine in the UK,

> Western

> food in China or Chinese food in England, American culture in

> Europe or

> European culture in the US, it adapts and looses part of itself.

> Trying to

> keep Chinese medicine 'intact' is a great ideal and something we

> must always

> strive towards. However, it still must adapt to its surroundings.

> If you

> look at the development of Chinese medicine in Asia, it too adapted

> to its

> cultural, political and religious surroundings. Knowledge, new plants,

> animal or mineral sources were imported in from other parts of Asia

> and even

> the Middle East. All the large philosophies such as Daoism, Buddhism,

> Confucianism and Communism have all impacted upon Chinese medicine.

 

 

[Guest guest]

there are many ways to integrate information from WM to CM without loosing the

identity or methods of CM. If you look at my acute abdominal syndromes book or

my new book you see it

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Attilio D'Alberto

Monday, May 21, 2007 2:09 PM

RE: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

Mmm, I guess the linguistic barriers were less, but they were still there.

They do use Chinese characters a lot in Asia, but hardly anyone speaks

Chinese. Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Tibet, etc all have their own alphabets.

It's not like in the west, where we use the Roman alphabet. My wife is from

South Korea and she speaks Mandarin, but that's not common at all. However,

I think geographically it was very important.

 

I agree that Chinese medicine shouldn't have western concepts just plugged

into it, like add ons. It has all the concepts it needs without adding

anything new. Everything is already there! I don't agree with the use of new

age terms being used in Chinese medicine. Even though when I first came into

TCM, I was a new age student with a keen interest to 'integrate' these new

age ideas into TCM. Since then, I keep them firmly apart!

 

The problem is that many practitioner like and actively try to integrate

different ideas into Chinese medicine. As I mentioned in my previous email,

the reason is there which creates the problem. Alas, I have no answer to

solve it.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 1189 612512

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

 

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only

for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not

disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this

e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or

shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication.

Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender

is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

 

On Behalf Of

21 May 2007 18:58

Re: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

Undoubtedly true. However, I would say that in Chinese medicine's

spread through Korea, Japan, Southeast Asia and its influence on

Tibetan medicine, the cultural and linguistic barriers were much less

than with the West. Our very source texts in the first generation of

transmission were interpretive or poorly translated, so that the

essence of the subject itself risks being lost unless there is

stronger grounding in the subject itself. Chinese medicine shouldn't

just be a canvas for throwing any kind of paint on.

 

On May 21, 2007, at 10:39 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

 

> Like everything that's brought into a country, it has too adapt to

> fit in.

> Whether it's western medicine in China, Chinese medicine in the UK,

> Western

> food in China or Chinese food in England, American culture in

> Europe or

> European culture in the US, it adapts and looses part of itself.

> Trying to

> keep Chinese medicine 'intact' is a great ideal and something we

> must always

> strive towards. However, it still must adapt to its surroundings.

> If you

> look at the development of Chinese medicine in Asia, it too adapted

> to its

> cultural, political and religious surroundings. Knowledge, new plants,

> animal or mineral sources were imported in from other parts of Asia

> and even

> the Middle East. All the large philosophies such as Daoism, Buddhism,

> Confucianism and Communism have all impacted upon Chinese medicine.

 

[Guest guest]

Agreed. Your book does a nice job of it.

 

 

On May 21, 2007, at 4:03 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> there are many ways to integrate information from WM to CM without

> loosing the identity or methods of CM. If you look at my acute

> abdominal syndromes book or my new book you see it

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

i feel the same

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Monday, May 21, 2007 5:34 PM

Re: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

I don't know about these specific treatments, and to me, technology

is secondary to theoretical foundations. In other words, using

acupuncture needles doesn't make it Chinese medicine (see Nogier's

auriculotherapy), and any therapy can be understood in Chinese

medical context.

 

For now, I would say I am much more skeptical of one-needle spiritual

acupuncture treatments than I would be of European electroacupuncture

treatments. I have no problem with it as long as it doesn't obscure

access to classical channel theory as used in acupuncture.

 

On May 21, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> Zev

> Do you think any of the electroacupuncture developments coming from

> the EU are worthless?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

>

>

> Monday, May 21, 2007 9:10 AM

> Re: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

>

> Tom,

> Thank you for your complete coverage of the Rothenburg

> conference. It gave me a good picture of a conference I've always

> wanted to take part in, but could never find the time to travel to.

>

> I have to respectfully disagree with your appraisal of innovation

> being ok as long as it is based on experience. First of all, my

> experience is that a majority of the time in seminars I've seen (see

> my last e-mail), no reference at all is given to Chinese medicine's

> roots or body of knowledge. And how are we able to tell what 'works'

> in these practices? What are the criteria?

>

> Innovation has to be built on history, experience and a body of

> knowledge in the realm of medicine, whether it is an oral tradition

> of shamanistic medicine, or a literate tradition such as Chinese or

> Tibetan medicine. It cannot be based on a pastiche of ideas pasted

> on to a few popular, interpretive Chinese medicine texts. As a

> profession, we still lack literacy in medical Chinese, access to

> journals in China, Japan and Korea, adequate history courses, or even

> a complete grasp of the 'tools of the trade'. For example, texts on

> pathomechanisms, one of the core tools of Chinese diagnosis are just

> beginning to appear in English. I know that Bob Damone lectured on

> this in Rothenburg. There are only two or three books on the

> development of modern Chinese medicine in China, none required as far

> as I know in mainstream CM colleges in the West.

>

> I share many people's skepticism about some developments in

> modern TCM in China, including integrative medicine that doesn't

> include the tools of Chinese diagnosis. However, one can only

> criticize these developments if one is conversant in what is actually

> going on in these developments, not solely from an opinion of one

> teacher or another.

>

>

> On May 21, 2007, at 2:22 AM, Tom Verhaeghe wrote:

>

> > Rothenburg is becoming the mekka of TCM in Europe. It's a fantastic

> > congress in a beautiful environment. Lots of speakers on lots of

> > topics.

> > I understand where Bob is coming from with his comments below. He

> > works hard to convey professional contemporary Chinese medicine

> as it

> > is practised in China. There is a lack of standardization as to how

> > Chinese medicine is practised in Europe today. Many people throw in

> > their own ideas.

> > I personally don't really have an issue with that. As long as people

> > state that it is their own experience and as long as it works in the

> > clinic, it's all right with me.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I only recently heard of these one needle treatments. Personally, I think

it's a load of rubbish. It points to an idealised view of Chinese medicine

which isn't real. It just goes to show how westerners perceive Chinese

medicine, through rose tinted new age glasses.

 

Funny enough that Foreign Language Press have a book on it titled 'One

Needle One Treatment'. Has anyone read this book?

 

I don't know about categorising Electroacupuncture as a European thing. I

saw plenty of it whilst I was in China. Generally, UK practitioners are

reluctant to use it. It is because of a lack of training and practice.

That's probably why David Mayor's new book 'Electroacupuncture' is so

popular.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 1189 612512

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

 

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only

for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not

disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this

e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or

shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication.

Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender

is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

22 May 2007 01:34

 

Re: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

 

I don't know about these specific treatments, and to me, technology

is secondary to theoretical foundations. In other words, using

acupuncture needles doesn't make it Chinese medicine (see Nogier's

auriculotherapy), and any therapy can be understood in Chinese

medical context.

 

For now, I would say I am much more skeptical of one-needle spiritual

acupuncture treatments than I would be of European electroacupuncture

treatments. I have no problem with it as long as it doesn't obscure

access to classical channel theory as used in acupuncture.

 

 

On May 21, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> Zev

> Do you think any of the electroacupuncture developments coming from

> the EU are worthless?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

>

> @ <%40>

 

> Monday, May 21, 2007 9:10 AM

> Re: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

>

> Tom,

> Thank you for your complete coverage of the Rothenburg

> conference. It gave me a good picture of a conference I've always

> wanted to take part in, but could never find the time to travel to.

>

> I have to respectfully disagree with your appraisal of innovation

> being ok as long as it is based on experience. First of all, my

> experience is that a majority of the time in seminars I've seen (see

> my last e-mail), no reference at all is given to Chinese medicine's

> roots or body of knowledge. And how are we able to tell what 'works'

> in these practices? What are the criteria?

>

> Innovation has to be built on history, experience and a body of

> knowledge in the realm of medicine, whether it is an oral tradition

> of shamanistic medicine, or a literate tradition such as Chinese or

> Tibetan medicine. It cannot be based on a pastiche of ideas pasted

> on to a few popular, interpretive Chinese medicine texts. As a

> profession, we still lack literacy in medical Chinese, access to

> journals in China, Japan and Korea, adequate history courses, or even

> a complete grasp of the 'tools of the trade'. For example, texts on

> pathomechanisms, one of the core tools of Chinese diagnosis are just

> beginning to appear in English. I know that Bob Damone lectured on

> this in Rothenburg. There are only two or three books on the

> development of modern Chinese medicine in China, none required as far

> as I know in mainstream CM colleges in the West.

>

> I share many people's skepticism about some developments in

> modern TCM in China, including integrative medicine that doesn't

> include the tools of Chinese diagnosis. However, one can only

> criticize these developments if one is conversant in what is actually

> going on in these developments, not solely from an opinion of one

> teacher or another.

>

>

> On May 21, 2007, at 2:22 AM, Tom Verhaeghe wrote:

>

> > Rothenburg is becoming the mekka of TCM in Europe. It's a fantastic

> > congress in a beautiful environment. Lots of speakers on lots of

> > topics.

> > I understand where Bob is coming from with his comments below. He

> > works hard to convey professional contemporary Chinese medicine

> as it

> > is practised in China. There is a lack of standardization as to how

> > Chinese medicine is practised in Europe today. Many people throw in

> > their own ideas.

> > I personally don't really have an issue with that. As long as people

> > state that it is their own experience and as long as it works in the

> > clinic, it's all right with me.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Z'ev,

 

I haven't seen too many people that imposed their own ideas on CM

without knowing their Chinese medical theory. In the case of

Rothenburg's psyche und soma congress [btw, it was mentioned several

times including by the chairman that there is no such dichotomy in CM]

we are, for example, talking about Yair Maimon who clearly also knows

his Chinese medical theory. It's just that he has developed his own

style of working within that framework. One of my teachers (Bruno

Braeckman) is firmly rooted in classical Chinese medicine but also

found that CM can lack in certain areas, so he developed a way to

treat people very much in accordance to five phases and traditional

Daoist philosophy. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Chinese

medicine does not always get a good result in psychiatric disorders,

so that practitioners look for other methods to help their patients?

Bob Flaws mentioned several times that we should not expect too much

from our CM treatments for true psychiatric patients, and that in

China it is often combined with Gestalttherapy or cognitive

behavioural therapy.

 

I would argue that what is not useful will get filtered out anyway.

Perhaps Bob saw otherwise, but I didn't see any spiritual gurus in

Rothenburg, just people that are doing their best to help people. They

were not trying too deceive people or doing magical spiritual cures

with one needle- not like what you described from San Diego.

Skepticism is good, but an open mind is also needed. I would like to

know who Bob was really talking about when he made that statement

about gurus. Perhaps the Friday night dance party took its toll

 

Bob Damone gave a good lecture on pathomechanisms, and there was a

relatively high turnout as well. Heiner Fruehauf always draws big

crowds, and he could arguably be called the most spiritual-minded of

all the speakers. The Germans seem to adore him; he gets minutes of

applause. He is extremely well versed in classical or even shamanist

ways of thinking about disease and health. In essence he says: treat

the qi, and one of the best ways to treat the qi is through the shen.

That is why many of his teachers are not acupuncturists or herbalists,

but qi gong masters. A teacher of his invites people to his house,

gives them some purgatives and says a few key words. Then all the

people in the room start giggling and laughing, harder and harder

until they start vomiting. They then go home, feeling cleansed and

renewed and they feel they can start all over. Heiner showed a

documentary about this last year. It should soon be available. He was

in fact worried that people might misunderstand the video and it would

destroy years of hard work to get CM accepted in the west.

I don't know if you can still call this CM. It is a form of qi gong,

albeit not medical qi gong. So what is it then?

OTOH, Heiner then knows master herbalists that can recite the SHL by

heart, many of whom practise qi gong and meditation to safeguard their

own health.

Although I do my best to study CM as good as I can, and I still have a

long way to go at that, I seem not to be as worried about certain

borders of CM being crossed. Perhaps that is due to my rather young

and progressive nature, who knows, all I know is that I am enjoying

the ride.

 

However, I agree with Heiner in the sense that the deeper you dig, the

closer you get to the spirit. We should not forget that even CM is

only a lens through which we view phenomena, no matter how useful that

lens.

So Heiner's lecture was aptly called: " All diseases come from the

Heart; or the forgotten role of emotions in CM " .

 

best,

 

Tom.

 

 

, " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Tom,

> Thank you for your complete coverage of the Rothenburg

> conference. It gave me a good picture of a conference I've always

> wanted to take part in, but could never find the time to travel to.

>

> I have to respectfully disagree with your appraisal of innovation

> being ok as long as it is based on experience. First of all, my

> experience is that a majority of the time in seminars I've seen (see

> my last e-mail), no reference at all is given to Chinese medicine's

> roots or body of knowledge. And how are we able to tell what 'works'

> in these practices? What are the criteria?

>

> Innovation has to be built on history, experience and a body of

> knowledge in the realm of medicine, whether it is an oral tradition

> of shamanistic medicine, or a literate tradition such as Chinese or

> Tibetan medicine. It cannot be based on a pastiche of ideas pasted

> on to a few popular, interpretive Chinese medicine texts. As a

> profession, we still lack literacy in medical Chinese, access to

> journals in China, Japan and Korea, adequate history courses, or even

> a complete grasp of the 'tools of the trade'. For example, texts on

> pathomechanisms, one of the core tools of Chinese diagnosis are just

> beginning to appear in English. I know that Bob Damone lectured on

> this in Rothenburg. There are only two or three books on the

> development of modern Chinese medicine in China, none required as far

> as I know in mainstream CM colleges in the West.

>

> I share many people's skepticism about some developments in

> modern TCM in China, including integrative medicine that doesn't

> include the tools of Chinese diagnosis. However, one can only

> criticize these developments if one is conversant in what is actually

> going on in these developments, not solely from an opinion of one

> teacher or another.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Attillio & group,

 

 

 

There is a Chinese " Chinese " Boulder practitioner that does one needle for

almost everyone. Also one of my teachers said he followed a famous doctor in

China that also just used 1 needle on everyone and had a line all day long.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Attilio D'Alberto

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:48 AM

 

RE: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

 

I only recently heard of these one needle treatments. Personally, I think

it's a load of rubbish. It points to an idealised view of Chinese medicine

which isn't real. It just goes to show how westerners perceive Chinese

medicine, through rose tinted new age glasses.

 

Funny enough that Foreign Language Press have a book on it titled 'One

Needle One Treatment'. Has anyone read this book?

 

I don't know about categorising Electroacupuncture as a European thing. I

saw plenty of it whilst I was in China. Generally, UK practitioners are

reluctant to use it. It is because of a lack of training and practice.

That's probably why David Mayor's new book 'Electroacupuncture' is so

popular.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 1189 612512

enquiries@chineseme <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com>

dicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesem <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>

edicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesem <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

edicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

 

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only

for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not

disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this

e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or

shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication.

Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender

is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

 

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of

22 May 2007 01:34

@ <%40>

 

Re: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

I don't know about these specific treatments, and to me, technology

is secondary to theoretical foundations. In other words, using

acupuncture needles doesn't make it Chinese medicine (see Nogier's

auriculotherapy), and any therapy can be understood in Chinese

medical context.

 

For now, I would say I am much more skeptical of one-needle spiritual

acupuncture treatments than I would be of European electroacupuncture

treatments. I have no problem with it as long as it doesn't obscure

access to classical channel theory as used in acupuncture.

 

 

On May 21, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> Zev

> Do you think any of the electroacupuncture developments coming from

> the EU are worthless?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

>

> @ <%40>

 

> Monday, May 21, 2007 9:10 AM

> Re: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

>

> Tom,

> Thank you for your complete coverage of the Rothenburg

> conference. It gave me a good picture of a conference I've always

> wanted to take part in, but could never find the time to travel to.

>

> I have to respectfully disagree with your appraisal of innovation

> being ok as long as it is based on experience. First of all, my

> experience is that a majority of the time in seminars I've seen (see

> my last e-mail), no reference at all is given to Chinese medicine's

> roots or body of knowledge. And how are we able to tell what 'works'

> in these practices? What are the criteria?

>

> Innovation has to be built on history, experience and a body of

> knowledge in the realm of medicine, whether it is an oral tradition

> of shamanistic medicine, or a literate tradition such as Chinese or

> Tibetan medicine. It cannot be based on a pastiche of ideas pasted

> on to a few popular, interpretive Chinese medicine texts. As a

> profession, we still lack literacy in medical Chinese, access to

> journals in China, Japan and Korea, adequate history courses, or even

> a complete grasp of the 'tools of the trade'. For example, texts on

> pathomechanisms, one of the core tools of Chinese diagnosis are just

> beginning to appear in English. I know that Bob Damone lectured on

> this in Rothenburg. There are only two or three books on the

> development of modern Chinese medicine in China, none required as far

> as I know in mainstream CM colleges in the West.

>

> I share many people's skepticism about some developments in

> modern TCM in China, including integrative medicine that doesn't

> include the tools of Chinese diagnosis. However, one can only

> criticize these developments if one is conversant in what is actually

> going on in these developments, not solely from an opinion of one

> teacher or another.

>

>

> On May 21, 2007, at 2:22 AM, Tom Verhaeghe wrote:

>

> > Rothenburg is becoming the mekka of TCM in Europe. It's a fantastic

> > congress in a beautiful environment. Lots of speakers on lots of

> > topics.

> > I understand where Bob is coming from with his comments below. He

> > works hard to convey professional contemporary Chinese medicine

> as it

> > is practised in China. There is a lack of standardization as to how

> > Chinese medicine is practised in Europe today. Many people throw in

> > their own ideas.

> > I personally don't really have an issue with that. As long as people

> > state that it is their own experience and as long as it works in the

> > clinic, it's all right with me.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tom,

 

 

 

Your points are well heard. Just to round out the picture a bit. On my last

trip studying in China, I observed a (Chinese) practitioner that would see

energy fields and would diagnose this way and his point selection was also

completely based on how he saw the qi moving (and not moving) in the body.

If you listened to the guy talk one would call him a " new ager " in the West,

in China it was just yet another style of practice. He saw a lot of very

high government officials. I am pretty clear there is not just this one

orthodox Chinese medicine (or TCM) in China. It is very diverse. But the

difference is, at least for this person, that he knows the CM inside and

out (classical etc).

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Tom Verhaeghe

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:19 AM

 

Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

 

Dear Z'ev,

 

I haven't seen too many people that imposed their own ideas on CM

without knowing their Chinese medical theory. In the case of

Rothenburg's psyche und soma congress [btw, it was mentioned several

times including by the chairman that there is no such dichotomy in CM]

we are, for example, talking about Yair Maimon who clearly also knows

his Chinese medical theory. It's just that he has developed his own

style of working within that framework. One of my teachers (Bruno

Braeckman) is firmly rooted in classical Chinese medicine but also

found that CM can lack in certain areas, so he developed a way to

treat people very much in accordance to five phases and traditional

Daoist philosophy. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Chinese

medicine does not always get a good result in psychiatric disorders,

so that practitioners look for other methods to help their patients?

Bob Flaws mentioned several times that we should not expect too much

from our CM treatments for true psychiatric patients, and that in

China it is often combined with Gestalttherapy or cognitive

behavioural therapy.

 

I would argue that what is not useful will get filtered out anyway.

Perhaps Bob saw otherwise, but I didn't see any spiritual gurus in

Rothenburg, just people that are doing their best to help people. They

were not trying too deceive people or doing magical spiritual cures

with one needle- not like what you described from San Diego.

Skepticism is good, but an open mind is also needed. I would like to

know who Bob was really talking about when he made that statement

about gurus. Perhaps the Friday night dance party took its toll

 

Bob Damone gave a good lecture on pathomechanisms, and there was a

relatively high turnout as well. Heiner Fruehauf always draws big

crowds, and he could arguably be called the most spiritual-minded of

all the speakers. The Germans seem to adore him; he gets minutes of

applause. He is extremely well versed in classical or even shamanist

ways of thinking about disease and health. In essence he says: treat

the qi, and one of the best ways to treat the qi is through the shen.

That is why many of his teachers are not acupuncturists or herbalists,

but qi gong masters. A teacher of his invites people to his house,

gives them some purgatives and says a few key words. Then all the

people in the room start giggling and laughing, harder and harder

until they start vomiting. They then go home, feeling cleansed and

renewed and they feel they can start all over. Heiner showed a

documentary about this last year. It should soon be available. He was

in fact worried that people might misunderstand the video and it would

destroy years of hard work to get CM accepted in the west.

I don't know if you can still call this CM. It is a form of qi gong,

albeit not medical qi gong. So what is it then?

OTOH, Heiner then knows master herbalists that can recite the SHL by

heart, many of whom practise qi gong and meditation to safeguard their

own health.

Although I do my best to study CM as good as I can, and I still have a

long way to go at that, I seem not to be as worried about certain

borders of CM being crossed. Perhaps that is due to my rather young

and progressive nature, who knows, all I know is that I am enjoying

the ride.

 

However, I agree with Heiner in the sense that the deeper you dig, the

closer you get to the spirit. We should not forget that even CM is

only a lens through which we view phenomena, no matter how useful that

lens.

So Heiner's lecture was aptly called: " All diseases come from the

Heart; or the forgotten role of emotions in CM " .

 

best,

 

Tom.

 

@ <%40>

, " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Tom,

> Thank you for your complete coverage of the Rothenburg

> conference. It gave me a good picture of a conference I've always

> wanted to take part in, but could never find the time to travel to.

>

> I have to respectfully disagree with your appraisal of innovation

> being ok as long as it is based on experience. First of all, my

> experience is that a majority of the time in seminars I've seen (see

> my last e-mail), no reference at all is given to Chinese medicine's

> roots or body of knowledge. And how are we able to tell what 'works'

> in these practices? What are the criteria?

>

> Innovation has to be built on history, experience and a body of

> knowledge in the realm of medicine, whether it is an oral tradition

> of shamanistic medicine, or a literate tradition such as Chinese or

> Tibetan medicine. It cannot be based on a pastiche of ideas pasted

> on to a few popular, interpretive Chinese medicine texts. As a

> profession, we still lack literacy in medical Chinese, access to

> journals in China, Japan and Korea, adequate history courses, or even

> a complete grasp of the 'tools of the trade'. For example, texts on

> pathomechanisms, one of the core tools of Chinese diagnosis are just

> beginning to appear in English. I know that Bob Damone lectured on

> this in Rothenburg. There are only two or three books on the

> development of modern Chinese medicine in China, none required as far

> as I know in mainstream CM colleges in the West.

>

> I share many people's skepticism about some developments in

> modern TCM in China, including integrative medicine that doesn't

> include the tools of Chinese diagnosis. However, one can only

> criticize these developments if one is conversant in what is actually

> going on in these developments, not solely from an opinion of one

> teacher or another.

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I believe that has more to do with the practitioners energy and intent than

the actual acupuncture.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 1189 612512

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

 

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only

for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not

disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this

e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or

shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication.

Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender

is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

22 May 2007 14:29

 

RE: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

 

Attillio & group,

 

There is a Chinese " Chinese " Boulder practitioner that does one needle for

almost everyone. Also one of my teachers said he followed a famous doctor in

China that also just used 1 needle on everyone and had a line all day long.

 

-Jason

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Attilio D'Alberto

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:48 AM

@ <%40>

 

RE: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

I only recently heard of these one needle treatments. Personally, I think

it's a load of rubbish. It points to an idealised view of Chinese medicine

which isn't real. It just goes to show how westerners perceive Chinese

medicine, through rose tinted new age glasses.

 

Funny enough that Foreign Language Press have a book on it titled 'One

Needle One Treatment'. Has anyone read this book?

 

I don't know about categorising Electroacupuncture as a European thing. I

saw plenty of it whilst I was in China. Generally, UK practitioners are

reluctant to use it. It is because of a lack of training and practice.

That's probably why David Mayor's new book 'Electroacupuncture' is so

popular.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 1189 612512

enquiries@chineseme <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com>

dicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesem <http://www.chinesem

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> edicinetimes.com/>

edicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesem <http://www.chinesem

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

edicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

edicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

 

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only

for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not

disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this

e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or

shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication.

Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender

is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

 

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of

22 May 2007 01:34

@ <%40>

 

Re: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

I don't know about these specific treatments, and to me, technology

is secondary to theoretical foundations. In other words, using

acupuncture needles doesn't make it Chinese medicine (see Nogier's

auriculotherapy), and any therapy can be understood in Chinese

medical context.

 

For now, I would say I am much more skeptical of one-needle spiritual

acupuncture treatments than I would be of European electroacupuncture

treatments. I have no problem with it as long as it doesn't obscure

access to classical channel theory as used in acupuncture.

 

 

On May 21, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> Zev

> Do you think any of the electroacupuncture developments coming from

> the EU are worthless?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

>

> @ <%40>

 

> Monday, May 21, 2007 9:10 AM

> Re: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

>

> Tom,

> Thank you for your complete coverage of the Rothenburg

> conference. It gave me a good picture of a conference I've always

> wanted to take part in, but could never find the time to travel to.

>

> I have to respectfully disagree with your appraisal of innovation

> being ok as long as it is based on experience. First of all, my

> experience is that a majority of the time in seminars I've seen (see

> my last e-mail), no reference at all is given to Chinese medicine's

> roots or body of knowledge. And how are we able to tell what 'works'

> in these practices? What are the criteria?

>

> Innovation has to be built on history, experience and a body of

> knowledge in the realm of medicine, whether it is an oral tradition

> of shamanistic medicine, or a literate tradition such as Chinese or

> Tibetan medicine. It cannot be based on a pastiche of ideas pasted

> on to a few popular, interpretive Chinese medicine texts. As a

> profession, we still lack literacy in medical Chinese, access to

> journals in China, Japan and Korea, adequate history courses, or even

> a complete grasp of the 'tools of the trade'. For example, texts on

> pathomechanisms, one of the core tools of Chinese diagnosis are just

> beginning to appear in English. I know that Bob Damone lectured on

> this in Rothenburg. There are only two or three books on the

> development of modern Chinese medicine in China, none required as far

> as I know in mainstream CM colleges in the West.

>

> I share many people's skepticism about some developments in

> modern TCM in China, including integrative medicine that doesn't

> include the tools of Chinese diagnosis. However, one can only

> criticize these developments if one is conversant in what is actually

> going on in these developments, not solely from an opinion of one

> teacher or another.

>

>

> On May 21, 2007, at 2:22 AM, Tom Verhaeghe wrote:

>

> > Rothenburg is becoming the mekka of TCM in Europe. It's a fantastic

> > congress in a beautiful environment. Lots of speakers on lots of

> > topics.

> > I understand where Bob is coming from with his comments below. He

> > works hard to convey professional contemporary Chinese medicine

> as it

> > is practised in China. There is a lack of standardization as to how

> > Chinese medicine is practised in Europe today. Many people throw in

> > their own ideas.

> > I personally don't really have an issue with that. As long as people

> > state that it is their own experience and as long as it works in the

> > clinic, it's all right with me.

>

>

[Guest guest]

A,

 

 

 

Hhhmmm.. Do you believe there is that much difference? What is the " actual

acupuncture " you speak of? Just sticking a needle in a whole?

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Attilio D'Alberto

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:39 AM

 

RE: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

 

I believe that has more to do with the practitioners energy and intent than

the actual acupuncture.

 

Kind regards,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Attilio, Jason,

 

the balancing method, often using only one needle to treat pain, is

based upon a line from the Nei Jing. I have several Chinese articles

on my computer that have investigated one needle methods. For example:

Fengchi for heel pain, or points on the heterolateral elbow for knee

pain. Chen Chao's Yi Jing acupuncture and Richard Tan's system borrow

from this system. I have seen a Taiwanese doctor treat a twisted ankle

by points on the heterolateral elbow. The pain went away immediately.

The doctor did practice meditation and qi gong, but he only spent like

30 seconds with this patient and then moved on to another patient (it

was an ER room).

" For diseases of the lower body, choose point(s) from the upper body "

et vice versa.

 

Tom.

 

, " Attilio D'Alberto "

<attiliodalberto wrote:

>

> I believe that has more to do with the practitioners energy and

intent than

> the actual acupuncture.

>

> Kind regards,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

> Editor

> Times

> +44 (0) 1189 612512

> enquiries

> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

>

> This message contains privileged and confidential information

intended only

> for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you

must not

> disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender.

Although this

> e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

> communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

> this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission

shall or

> shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

> otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic

communication.

> Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications.

The sender

> is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

> Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of

> 22 May 2007 14:29

>

> RE: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

>

>

>

> Attillio & group,

>

> There is a Chinese " Chinese " Boulder practitioner that does one

needle for

> almost everyone. Also one of my teachers said he followed a famous

doctor in

> China that also just used 1 needle on everyone and had a line all

day long.

>

> -Jason

[Guest guest]

Acupuncture is a medium for the energy exchange between a practitioner and

patient. Of course, to treat a patient with one needle, you'll need to grow

and foster your Qi, otherwise you cannot treat a patient with one needle.

That's why people you practice this spend a lot of time cultivating their Qi

through Qi Gong and other exercises. It is therefore, not strictly

acupuncture, but rather, as you said, a line of acupuncture based upon

energy transfer. Energy is not restricted to time, so the amount of time

spent with a patient makes no difference.

 

I never said 'stick it in any hole' Jason. Such a practitioner uses

intuition to determine where the disorder exists and using acupuncture,

guides his energy to the affected area.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 1189 612512

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

 

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only

for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not

disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this

e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or

shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication.

Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender

is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Tom Verhaeghe

22 May 2007 15:30

 

Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

 

Attilio, Jason,

 

the balancing method, often using only one needle to treat pain, is

based upon a line from the Nei Jing. I have several Chinese articles

on my computer that have investigated one needle methods. For example:

Fengchi for heel pain, or points on the heterolateral elbow for knee

pain. Chen Chao's Yi Jing acupuncture and Richard Tan's system borrow

from this system. I have seen a Taiwanese doctor treat a twisted ankle

by points on the heterolateral elbow. The pain went away immediately.

The doctor did practice meditation and qi gong, but he only spent like

30 seconds with this patient and then moved on to another patient (it

was an ER room).

" For diseases of the lower body, choose point(s) from the upper body "

et vice versa.

 

Tom.

 

@ <%40>

, " Attilio D'Alberto "

<attiliodalberto wrote:

>

> I believe that has more to do with the practitioners energy and

intent than

> the actual acupuncture.

>

> Kind regards,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

> Editor

> Times

> +44 (0) 1189 612512

> enquiries

> <http://www.chinesem <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>

edicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> <http://www.chinesem <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

edicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

>

> This message contains privileged and confidential information

intended only

> for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you

must not

> disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender.

Although this

> e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

> communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

> this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission

shall or

> shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

> otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic

communication.

> Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications.

The sender

> is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

> Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

>

>

> @ <%40>

 

> [@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of

> 22 May 2007 14:29

> @ <%40>

 

> RE: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

>

>

>

> Attillio & group,

>

> There is a Chinese " Chinese " Boulder practitioner that does one

needle for

> almost everyone. Also one of my teachers said he followed a famous

doctor in

> China that also just used 1 needle on everyone and had a line all

day long.

>

> -Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

A,

 

 

 

Lets recap what you said about treating with 1 needle, you said, " I think

it's a load of rubbish. " You also said " It points to an idealized view of

Chinese medicine which isn't real. " Clearly people are sustaining a practice

doing this style. Clearly these people are trained in CM and are from China.

What is not real about it? My point is there is a tradition in CM that

treats this way, it is not just a western dream. Here are real Chinese

people that use it day in and day out. For example, one practitioner I know

just does one needle for back pain, usually Bl-40. He just wails on the

needle, patient usually screams. There is no subtly in picking the point or

fancy qi-gong in the treatment. There is no intuition or new age picking of

points. It is based on his family tradition of treating back pain. It may be

" unsophisticated " to us " professionals " but how is it not acupuncture? Not

CM? IMO, you are quick to judge something because it does not fit into your

paradigm.

 

 

 

Even if it is Qi-Gong, is that not CM? Are you saying if one cultivates

their energy with Qi-Gong and then uses one's heightened abilities then this

is no longer acupuncture / CM? IMO, energy transfer happens no matter who

the 2 people are, and this part of healing in any tradition. One cannot

avoid it. Oh unless we get a machine to poke the needles in, then maybe we

can find out if acupuncture really works. any takers?

 

 

 

Some pick the one point based on seeing energy in the channels (where

something is blocked) (different point each time). Some pick the same point

every time for any condition (st-36 for everything), and some pick the point

based on theory of channels or disorders (i.e. bl-40 for back pain). Who are

you to tell them that what they practice is not CM? I personally don't

resonate with this style (at least yet :-) ), but I will surely defend it!

 

 

 

On a side note: My teacher in China always talked about going into the

country side to see how diverse CM was. One could get great new ideas on how

to use medicinals, based on folk medicine and family tradition. Should I

tell these Chinese people that what they practice is not CM, because it is

not in my MatMed. Please let me know.

 

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Attilio D'Alberto

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 8:54 AM

 

RE: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

 

 

Acupuncture is a medium for the energy exchange between a practitioner and

patient. Of course, to treat a patient with one needle, you'll need to grow

and foster your Qi, otherwise you cannot treat a patient with one needle.

That's why people you practice this spend a lot of time cultivating their Qi

through Qi Gong and other exercises. It is therefore, not strictly

acupuncture, but rather, as you said, a line of acupuncture based upon

energy transfer. Energy is not restricted to time, so the amount of time

spent with a patient makes no difference.

 

I never said 'stick it in any hole' Jason. Such a practitioner uses

intuition to determine where the disorder exists and using acupuncture,

guides his energy to the affected area.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 1189 612512

enquiries@chineseme <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com>

dicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesem <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>

edicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

<http://www.chinesem <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

edicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

 

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only

for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not

disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this

e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or

shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication.

Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender

is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

 

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Tom Verhaeghe

22 May 2007 15:30

@ <%40>

 

Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

 

Attilio, Jason,

 

the balancing method, often using only one needle to treat pain, is

based upon a line from the Nei Jing. I have several Chinese articles

on my computer that have investigated one needle methods. For example:

Fengchi for heel pain, or points on the heterolateral elbow for knee

pain. Chen Chao's Yi Jing acupuncture and Richard Tan's system borrow

from this system. I have seen a Taiwanese doctor treat a twisted ankle

by points on the heterolateral elbow. The pain went away immediately.

The doctor did practice meditation and qi gong, but he only spent like

30 seconds with this patient and then moved on to another patient (it

was an ER room).

" For diseases of the lower body, choose point(s) from the upper body "

et vice versa.

 

Tom.

 

@ <%40>

, " Attilio D'Alberto "

<attiliodalberto wrote:

>

> I believe that has more to do with the practitioners energy and

intent than

> the actual acupuncture.

>

> Kind regards,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

> Editor

> Times

> +44 (0) 1189 612512

> enquiries

> <http://www.chinesem <http://www.chinesem

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> edicinetimes.com/>

edicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> <http://www.chinesem <http://www.chinesem

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

edicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

edicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>

> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

>

> This message contains privileged and confidential information

intended only

> for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you

must not

> disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender.

Although this

> e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail

> communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that

> this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission

shall or

> shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or

> otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic

communication.

> Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications.

The sender

> is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham,

> Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK.

>

>

> @ <%40>

 

> [@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of

> 22 May 2007 14:29

> @ <%40>

 

> RE: Re: Hello from Rothenburg o.d.Tauber

>

>

>

> Attillio & group,

>

> There is a Chinese " Chinese " Boulder practitioner that does one

needle for

> almost everyone. Also one of my teachers said he followed a famous

doctor in

> China that also just used 1 needle on everyone and had a line all

day long.

>

> -Jason