zhu dan xi and six depressions

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

In the process of trying to broaden my mind I ran across this quote from Zhu

Danxi in the Qin Bowei Anthology:

 

If there is qi depression, then there is depressive damp; and if there is

depressive damp, then there is depressive heat; if there is depressive heat,

then there is phlegm depression; if there is phlegm depression, then there will

be blood depression; if there is blood depression then there will be digestate

depression...

page 13

 

When I first read this a couple years ago I stormed right through to get to the

good part, but now I'm wondering, what in Sam Hale this means. I understand

that one depression tends to create others, and the primacy of qi depression

makes sense if the process is emotionally instigated. The only explanation I

could come up with was a half baked five element thing.

 

So, is there a logical progression to this, or am I barking up a stump?

 

woof woof!

 

Par Scott

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Par Scott " <parufus@e...>

wrote:

> Hi,

>

> In the process of trying to broaden my mind I ran across this quote

from Zhu Danxi in the Qin Bowei Anthology:

>

> If there is qi depression, then there is depressive damp; and if

there is depressive damp, then there is depressive heat; if there is

depressive heat, then there is phlegm depression; if there is phlegm

depression, then there will be blood depression; if there is blood

depression then there will be digestate depression...

> page 13

>

> When I first read this a couple years ago I stormed right through to

get to the good part, but now I'm wondering, what in Sam Hale this

means. I understand that one depression tends to create others, and

the primacy of qi depression makes sense if the process is emotionally

instigated. The only explanation I could come up with was a half

baked five element thing.

>

> So, is there a logical progression to this, or am I barking up a stump?

>

> woof woof!

>

> Par Scott

>

 

Par,

 

I am unsure of the context, but it seems like an example of how the

etiologies of depression work... Meaning, if qi stagnates then damp

can easily accumulate. When there is dampness with qi stagnation then

the next logical step is heat. Then with qi stagnation, heat, and

damp this can produce phlegm... etc etc. This doesn't mean that this

must be the order or progression, just a basic one,… I don't see

anything to profound here, unless I am missing the point or the

context.. Does this help??

 

-

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jason,

Yes, that helps, I understand the qi to damp as being first, but I don't see

the connection of phlegm to blood and the relation of blood to food stasis.

It seems like this should be diagramed with qi depression at the center and

all of the others as radial spokes (with various other interactions

possible). Qi to heat without damp seems entirely possible, though phlegm

w/o damp is harder..., the quote obviously means if you've got one you've

got them all, but the specificity of the progression slowed me up.

What I was trying to figure out was if there was some sort of sense to be

made about a specific progression here, especially in terms of phlegm to

blood depression (which I guess we aren't making equivalent to stasis).

I've been tunneling through pi wei lun and keep butting up against these

expressions of five element thinking, and since zhu dan xi seems to have

hoovered up most of li dong yuan's theories I thought there might be

something of that sort happening here too.

 

Par

-

" " <

 

Saturday, January 24, 2004 8:41 AM

Re: zhu dan xi and six depressions

 

 

, " Par Scott " <parufus@e...>

wrote:

> Hi,

>

> In the process of trying to broaden my mind I ran across this quote

from Zhu Danxi in the Qin Bowei Anthology:

>

> If there is qi depression, then there is depressive damp; and if

there is depressive damp, then there is depressive heat; if there is

depressive heat, then there is phlegm depression; if there is phlegm

depression, then there will be blood depression; if there is blood

depression then there will be digestate depression...

> page 13

>

> When I first read this a couple years ago I stormed right through to

get to the good part, but now I'm wondering, what in Sam Hale this

means. I understand that one depression tends to create others, and

the primacy of qi depression makes sense if the process is emotionally

instigated. The only explanation I could come up with was a half

baked five element thing.

>

> So, is there a logical progression to this, or am I barking up a stump?

>

> woof woof!

>

> Par Scott

>

 

Par,

 

I am unsure of the context, but it seems like an example of how the

etiologies of depression work... Meaning, if qi stagnates then damp

can easily accumulate. When there is dampness with qi stagnation then

the next logical step is heat. Then with qi stagnation, heat, and

damp this can produce phlegm... etc etc. This doesn't mean that this

must be the order or progression, just a basic one,. I don't see

anything to profound here, unless I am missing the point or the

context.. Does this help??

 

-

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Jan 24, 2004, at 7:57 AM, Par Scott wrote:

 

> Thanks Jason,

> Yes, that helps, I understand the qi to damp as being first, but I

> don't see

> the connection of phlegm to blood and the relation of blood to food

> stasis.

> It seems like this should be diagramed with qi depression at the

> center and

> all of the others as radial spokes (with various other interactions

> possible).

 

This sounds like the formula is Yue Ju Wan (Escape Restraint Pill) for

the " Six Stagnations " .

 

The first herb is Xiang Fu, for spreading Liver Qi.

 

Qi stagnation creates heat, for which we use Shan Zhi Zi.

 

Qi stagnation leads to Spleen damp and phlegm for which we use Cang Zhu.

 

Qi stagnation causes Food stagnation for which we use Shen Qu.

 

Qi stagnation causes Blood stagnation for which we use Chuan Xiong.

 

This is more like the radiating spokes than the linear progression as

presented in the Qin Bo Wei text.

 

Problem with reading these old texts is that there are so many literary

devices used that we might not really be privy to to understand it

clearly.

 

Nei Jing makes plenty of references such as " tendons are the mother of

vessels " or " wind is the mother of fire " in which they're just taking

any of the five element associations rather than strictly saying what

we'd expect (wood is the mother of fire). This quote with Qin Bo Wei

may be a similar situation.

 

-al.

 

 

> Qi to heat without damp seems entirely possible, though phlegm

> w/o damp is harder..., the quote obviously means if you've got one

> you've

> got them all, but the specificity of the progression slowed me up.

> What I was trying to figure out was if there was some sort of sense to

> be

> made about a specific progression here, especially in terms of phlegm

> to

> blood depression (which I guess we aren't making equivalent to stasis).

> I've been tunneling through pi wei lun and keep butting up against

> these

> expressions of five element thinking, and since zhu dan xi seems to

> have

> hoovered up most of li dong yuan's theories I thought there might be

> something of that sort happening here too.

>

> Par

> -

> " " <

>

> Saturday, January 24, 2004 8:41 AM

> Re: zhu dan xi and six depressions

>

>

> , " Par Scott " <parufus@e...>

> wrote:

>> Hi,

>>

>> In the process of trying to broaden my mind I ran across this quote

> from Zhu Danxi in the Qin Bowei Anthology:

>>

>> If there is qi depression, then there is depressive damp; and if

> there is depressive damp, then there is depressive heat; if there is

> depressive heat, then there is phlegm depression; if there is phlegm

> depression, then there will be blood depression; if there is blood

> depression then there will be digestate depression...

>> page 13

>>

>> When I first read this a couple years ago I stormed right through to

> get to the good part, but now I'm wondering, what in Sam Hale this

> means. I understand that one depression tends to create others, and

> the primacy of qi depression makes sense if the process is emotionally

> instigated. The only explanation I could come up with was a half

> baked five element thing.

>>

>> So, is there a logical progression to this, or am I barking up a

>> stump?

>>

>> woof woof!

>>

>> Par Scott

>>

>

> Par,

>

> I am unsure of the context, but it seems like an example of how the

> etiologies of depression work... Meaning, if qi stagnates then damp

> can easily accumulate. When there is dampness with qi stagnation then

> the next logical step is heat. Then with qi stagnation, heat, and

> damp this can produce phlegm... etc etc. This doesn't mean that this

> must be the order or progression, just a basic one,. I don't see

> anything to profound here, unless I am missing the point or the

> context.. Does this help??

>

> -

>

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

-Adlai Stevenson

[Guest guest]

When I first read this a couple years ago I stormed right through to get to the

good part, but now I'm wondering, what in Sam Hale this means. I understand

that one depression tends to create others, and the primacy of qi depression

makes sense if the process is emotionally instigated. The only explanation I

could come up with was a half baked five element thing.

>>>Probably that Liver depression is underlying all

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " " <

@h...> wrote:

This doesn't mean that this

> must be the order or progression, just a basic one,

 

 

I agree. This a possible order, but not THE sole order. I believe all the

depressions can be directly attributable to qi depression in this scheme.

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks all, I appreciate the feedback

-

" " <

 

Saturday, January 24, 2004 12:35 PM

Re: zhu dan xi and six depressions

 

 

> , " " <

> @h...> wrote:

> This doesn't mean that this

> > must be the order or progression, just a basic one,

>

>

> I agree. This a possible order, but not THE sole order. I believe all

the

> depressions can be directly attributable to qi depression in this scheme.

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Haven't followed this thread -- been away and then busy, but I can say that any

of Zhu Zhen-heng's six depressions can cause any of

the other. They are all potentially mutually engendering.

 

Bob