Subhuti Dharmananda's article on Coffee

[Guest guest]

Wondering if anyone read Subhuti Dharmananda's recent article on the TCM

perspective of coffee. He questions the idea that coffee depletes the Kidneys

and puts forth the argument that coffee actually purges the Liver and Gall

Bladder thus providing the energy boosting effects. He also notes some

strengthening effects on the Heart and mild Spleen supplementation. I would

love to know others' opinions on the subject, especially with the recent thread

on understanding fatigue.

 

 

Ross Rosen, JD, MSTOM, LAc (NY), CA (NJ), Dipl Ac & CH (NCCAOM)

President, Center for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine, P.A.

166 Mountain Avenue

Westfield, NJ 07090

(908) 654-4333

www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hotjobs: Enter the " Signing Bonus " Sweepstakes

 

 

[Guest guest]

, ross rosen

<rossrosen> wrote:

> Wondering if anyone read Subhuti Dharmananda's recent article on

the TCM perspective of coffee. He questions the idea that coffee

depletes the Kidneys and puts forth the argument that coffee

actually purges the Liver and Gall Bladder thus providing the energy

boosting effects. He also notes some strengthening effects on the

Heart and mild Spleen supplementation. I would love to know others'

opinions on the subject, especially with the recent thread on

understanding fatigue.>>>

 

 

Ross:

 

I often see people who drink coffee, and drink it often myself. It

can fondly be thought of as " the other vitamin C " . Their pulses (and

mine) show that the caffine stimulates the adrenals [kidney yang],

which then can affect the heart; the bitter oils affect the liver

and GB then, in turn, sometimes the heart; and, if we believe the

recent research, it helps prevent diabetes so it can stimulate the

pancreas.

 

But I think we have to carefully distinguish between stimulation and

supplementation for coffee. IMO, there doesn't seem to be much in

coffee for supplementation. Usually, kidney and liver yin can easily

become exhausted by its astringing action.

 

But to be fair to Subhuti, I haven't seen his article or heard his

arguments to consider otherwise.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Speaking of " stimulating the adrenals " , a student asked me if Ma Huang can

be said to help asthma by stimulating the adrenals, the way western drugs

for asthma do. I don't think Ma Huang has any action on the kidneys, and its

effect on asthma is due to its action on the lungs. But does anyone see it

the other way?

 

Julie

 

 

James Ramholz wrote:

 

> I often see people who drink coffee, and drink it often myself. It

> can fondly be thought of as " the other vitamin C " . Their pulses (and

> mine) show that the caffine stimulates the adrenals [kidney yang],

> which then can affect the heart; the bitter oils affect the liver

> and GB then, in turn, sometimes the heart; and, if we believe the

> recent research, it helps prevent diabetes so it can stimulate the

> pancreas.

>

[Guest guest]

From memory, I believe both WM and Ma Huang act by either stimulating the

supply of or supplying anti-inflammatory corticosteroids.

Ma Huang stimulates the parasympathetic nervous sytem, which pushes the

adrenals to pump steroids. WM just pumps you full of them.

In the end what you are dealing with is mediating an inflammatory action,

that in all likelihood could be done better through diet and rebalancing the

nervous system.

Hope this helps,

Chris

 

 

In a message dated 1/11/2004 11:37:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,

info writes:

Speaking of " stimulating the adrenals " , a student asked me if Ma Huang can

be said to help asthma by stimulating the adrenals, the way western drugs

for asthma do. I don't think Ma Huang has any action on the kidneys, and its

effect on asthma is due to its action on the lungs. But does anyone see it

the other way?

 

Julie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/11/04 1:30:50 PM, Musiclear writes:

 

<< Ma Huang stimulates the parasympathetic nervous sytem >>

 

are you mixing up parasympathetic and sympathetic? I would think you mean

sympathetic n.s.

--roseanne s.

[Guest guest]

Speaking of " stimulating the adrenals " , a student asked me if Ma Huang can

be said to help asthma by stimulating the adrenals, the way western drugs

for asthma do. I don't think Ma Huang has any action on the kidneys, and its

effect on asthma is due to its action on the lungs. But does anyone see it

the other way?

 

>>>>If you are talking WM it does. He is correct it stimulates alpha receptors

alon

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Julie Chambers <info@j...>

wrote:

> Speaking of " stimulating the adrenals " , a student asked me if Ma

Huang can

> be said to help asthma by stimulating the adrenals, the way western

drugs

> for asthma do. I don't think Ma Huang has any action on the kidneys,

and its

> effect on asthma is due to its action on the lungs. But does anyone

see it

> the other way?

>

> Julie

 

There are no adrenals in Chinese medicine, and it seems that you are

implying that stimulating the adrenals (Western) would be accomplished

in Chinese medicine only through acting on the Kidney. Is this true?

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

Brian,

 

Is there a pancreas in ? Does the TCM Spleen really

do all physiological processes we ascribe to it?

 

Fernando

 

 

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

wrote:

> , Julie Chambers

<info@j...>

> wrote:

> > Speaking of " stimulating the adrenals " , a student asked me if Ma

> Huang can

> > be said to help asthma by stimulating the adrenals, the way

western

> drugs

> > for asthma do. I don't think Ma Huang has any action on the

kidneys,

> and its

> > effect on asthma is due to its action on the lungs. But does

anyone

> see it

> > the other way?

> >

> > Julie

>

> There are no adrenals in Chinese medicine, and it seems that you are

> implying that stimulating the adrenals (Western) would be

accomplished

> in Chinese medicine only through acting on the Kidney. Is this

true?

>

> Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " Fernando Bernall "

<fbernall> wrote:

> Brian,

>

> Is there a pancreas in ? Does the TCM Spleen really

> do all physiological processes we ascribe to it?

>

> Fernando

>

 

I have not heard of a pancreas named in . Why do you ask?

 

Yes the TCM Spleen does all that it proports to do. That is why when

we treat the TCM Spleen, the problems get fixed. Why do you ask?

There is no reason to think that the TCM Spleen is the same as the

Western Spleen. Furthermore, the Western Spleen is just an organ,

whereas the TCM Spleen is not only a viscera, but an entire system.

This is all very basic.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

Hi Brian,

 

 

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> >

Is there a pancreas in ? Does the TCM Spleen really

> > do all physiological processes we ascribe to it?

> >

> > Fernando

> >

>

> I have not heard of a pancreas named in . Why do

you ask?

 

Only reacting to your questioning of the adrenals in relation to the

TCM Kidney. There's so much talk about integration now days, that I

thought you could talk about these issues as a TCM student.

 

>

> Yes the TCM Spleen does all that it proports to do. That is why

when

> we treat the TCM Spleen, the problems get fixed. Why do you ask?

 

Yes, I agree. The TCM spleen does everything we think it does. I was

only asking to find out what today's tcm students are being taught in

light of TCM organ understanding.

 

 

> There is no reason to think that the TCM Spleen is the same as the

> Western Spleen.

 

Agreed. This is basic theory.

 

Furthermore, the Western Spleen is just an organ,

> whereas the TCM Spleen is not only a viscera, but an entire system.

 

Agreed! We deal with entire systems.

 

> This is all very basic.

 

Yes, very basic indeed. Sorry if I insulted your intelligence by such

a question.

 

BTW, why do you suppose that Bob Flaws suggests the use of the

auricular point for the pancreas on his Treatment of Diabetes

Mellitus with ? Is he deviating from the basics or is

he conforming to a larger understanding of modern tcm's Spleen?

 

~fernando

[Guest guest]

, " bcataiji " wrote:

> There are no adrenals in Chinese medicine, and it seems that you

are implying that stimulating the adrenals (Western) would be

accomplished in Chinese medicine only through acting on the Kidney.

Is this true? >>>

 

 

 

Brian:

 

CM didn't end in the 19th century; or, perhaps it did for many. Many

ideas from WM can be incorporated into CM; it doesn't have to stand

still. Some CM needs to be updated and corrected in light of new

knowledge.

 

You can read more about this line of thinking in my article, " Organs

and Their Associated Pulses " , in the Files section of this forum.

Some of those new ideas are already in the Shen/Hammer system and

found independently in the Dong Han system, such as the association

of a wiry pulse with nervous tension. An important concept in the

context of our culture.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " Fernando Bernall " wrote:

> Is there a pancreas in ? Does the TCM Spleen

really do all physiological processes we ascribe to it? >>>

 

 

 

Fernando:

 

The pancreas can be found in the pulses at the endocrine level of

the right middle pulse position. It is on the dividing line of the

middle/blood and organ/adapted depths, using the 3-Depth Nan Jing

method.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " Fernando Bernall "

<fbernall> wrote:

 

> Yes, I agree. The TCM spleen does everything we think it does. I was

> only asking to find out what today's tcm students are being taught in

> light of TCM organ understanding.

 

We learn to keep TCM and Western separate. Combining the two makes

one seemed confused, or at best, speculative. " Integrative medicine "

is part of our course of study at PCOM, however, the meaning of that

is that we learn how to integrate our practice into a Western medical

setting. It is not intended that we integrate the 2 theories

ourselves. We learn basics in Western Medicine so that we can

communicate with Western Practitioners and so that we can recognize

when it would be best to refer our patients to Western styled

practitioners.

 

 

> BTW, why do you suppose that Bob Flaws suggests the use of the

> auricular point for the pancreas on his Treatment of Diabetes

> Mellitus with ? Is he deviating from the basics or is

> he conforming to a larger understanding of modern tcm's Spleen?

 

As you know, Bob did not invent the pancreas auricular point. The

auricular system to which you are referring is very modern in the

history of . I would not consider it to be part of

the basics. I do not have to know anything at all about aurical

acupuncture in order to diagnose and treat patients, for instance.

Furthermore, Bob's inclusion of the point can only be taken for what

it is, inclusion of the point. Some people may find it useful.

Whether he is conforming to a modern idea is besides the point and

irrelevent to its inclusion as something that some people may find useful.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz "

<jramholz@m...> wrote:

 

> Brian:

>

> CM didn't end in the 19th century; or, perhaps it did for many. Many

> ideas from WM can be incorporated into CM; it doesn't have to stand

> still. Some CM needs to be updated and corrected in light of new

> knowledge.

>

> You can read more about this line of thinking in my article, " Organs

> and Their Associated Pulses " , in the Files section of this forum.

> Some of those new ideas are already in the Shen/Hammer system and

> found independently in the Dong Han system, such as the association

> of a wiry pulse with nervous tension. An important concept in the

> context of our culture.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

 

I understand all of what you say, but I do believe a system can change

enough that it is no longer considered to be the same system.

 

Continuously injecting Western medicine into Chinese medicine will

turn it into something other than Chinese medicine. Yes, in some

regard it is still " Chinese " because it is practiced in China by

Chinese people, but that does not make it the same as Chinese

medicine. For example, if I take it upon myself to change what I

learned about Chinese medicine, added notions from Western medicine,

Wicca, and Egyptian sorcery, why should it still be called Chinese

medicine? There has to be line somewhere, otherwise, any type of

medicine could be called Chinese medicine.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " Fernando Bernall "

<fbernall> wrote:

> Brian,

>

> Is there a pancreas in ? Does the TCM Spleen

really

> do all physiological processes we ascribe to it?

>

> Fernando

>

 

F,

 

Yes there is actually quite a bit of evidence that 'the spleen'

(TCM) is actually referring to the pancreas - there was a

mistranslation. but as Brian points out, the functions are the most

important aspect. And we see many spleen TCM functions are equal to

aspects of the SI, pancreas, and St. (as possibly others like

liver)...

 

Also Adrenal glands are associated quite often with kidney function

in TCM literature.

 

 

-

 

>

> , " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

> wrote:

> > , Julie Chambers

> <info@j...>

> > wrote:

> > > Speaking of " stimulating the adrenals " , a student asked me if

Ma

> > Huang can

> > > be said to help asthma by stimulating the adrenals, the way

> western

> > drugs

> > > for asthma do. I don't think Ma Huang has any action on the

> kidneys,

> > and its

> > > effect on asthma is due to its action on the lungs. But does

> anyone

> > see it

> > > the other way?

> > >

> > > Julie

> >

> > There are no adrenals in Chinese medicine, and it seems that you

are

> > implying that stimulating the adrenals (Western) would be

> accomplished

> > in Chinese medicine only through acting on the Kidney. Is this

> true?

> >

> > Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, Musiclear@a... wrote:

> From memory, I believe

> Ma Huang stimulates the parasympathetic nervous sytem, which pushes the

> adrenals to pump steroids.

 

I am pretty sure that is correct. from a western perspective, ma huang's effects

on the

lungs are mediated by the nervous system

 

[Guest guest]

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

wrote:

> , " Fernando Bernall "

> <fbernall> wrote:

>

> > Yes, I agree. The TCM spleen does everything we think it does. I

was

> > only asking to find out what today's tcm students are being

taught in

> > light of TCM organ understanding.

>

> We learn to keep TCM and Western separate. Combining the two makes

> one seemed confused, or at best, speculative. " Integrative

medicine "

> is part of our course of study at PCOM, however, the meaning of

that

> is that we learn how to integrate our practice into a Western

medical

> setting. It is not intended that we integrate the 2 theories

> ourselves. We learn basics in Western Medicine so that we can

> communicate with Western Practitioners and so that we can recognize

> when it would be best to refer our patients to Western styled

> practitioners.

 

Yes, this is also the way I was taught, since I went to PCOM. But

let us not forget that there is a huge movement (for better or

worse) in China that does ACTUALLY integrates these two systems. So

this type of thinking is also valid, but I really think it must be

referenced with some kinds of tests, literature, or something.

Because I have definitely heard a lot of MSU in this area, that was

nothing but speculation. But I am sure Todd could chime in more on

all this, because I think that is a big interest of his… Todd?

 

-

[Guest guest]

Chris:

Ephedra is sympathomimetic and adrenergic but I am not aware that it

pushes the adrenals to pump steroids? You claim it works

by " stimulating the supply of or supplying anti-inflammatory

corticosteroids "

Exactly which steroids are you referring to??

 

Warren Sheir

 

 

 

In , " "

wrote:

> , Musiclear@a... wrote:

> > From memory, I believe

> > Ma Huang stimulates the parasympathetic nervous sytem, which

pushes the

> > adrenals to pump steroids.

>

> I am pretty sure that is correct. from a western perspective, ma

huang's effects on the

> lungs are mediated by the nervous system

>

 

[Guest guest]

I agree. One cannot automatically mix concepts between WM and CM.

 

Auricular acupuncture was first discovered by Nogier in France, and

then adapted by China in the 50's and 60's. The original ear maps were

clearly anatomically based, inspired by the ear as a homonculus of the

embryo. This information was then adapted by the Chinese. I've always

been uncomfortable with the Chinese version, with its mixes of san

jiaos and pancreas. And which kidney is one treating with the Chinese

system? I was told both western and Chinese, but it seems quite

confused to me.

 

 

On Jan 11, 2004, at 11:40 AM, bcataiji wrote:

 

>

> We learn to keep TCM and Western separate. Combining the two makes

> one seemed confused, or at best, speculative. " Integrative medicine "

> is part of our course of study at PCOM, however, the meaning of that

> is that we learn how to integrate our practice into a Western medical

> setting. It is not intended that we integrate the 2 theories

> ourselves. We learn basics in Western Medicine so that we can

> communicate with Western Practitioners and so that we can recognize

> when it would be best to refer our patients to Western styled

> practitioners.

>

>

>> BTW, why do you suppose that Bob Flaws suggests the use of the

>> auricular point for the pancreas on his Treatment of Diabetes

>> Mellitus with ? Is he deviating from the basics or is

>> he conforming to a larger understanding of modern tcm's Spleen?

>

> As you know, Bob did not invent the pancreas auricular point. The

> auricular system to which you are referring is very modern in the

> history of . I would not consider it to be part of

> the basics. I do not have to know anything at all about aurical

> acupuncture in order to diagnose and treat patients, for instance.

> Furthermore, Bob's inclusion of the point can only be taken for what

> it is, inclusion of the point. Some people may find it useful.

> Whether he is conforming to a modern idea is besides the point and

> irrelevent to its inclusion as something that some people may find

> useful.

>

> Brian C. Allen

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " wsheir " <wsheir> wrote:

> Chris:

> Ephedra is sympathomimetic and adrenergic but I am not aware that it

> pushes the adrenals to pump steroids?

 

I missed that part. I know it stimulates adrenaline production in the adrenals.

 

[Guest guest]

Jim,

This would appear to be along the lines of an 'original work', a

proposal to the CM community, or an adaption of what you learned from

Jiang Jing. Since these are new ideas, I think they should be

presented as such, along with the reasoning and discovery process,

including their clinical application, before stating this information

as fact. The process would be the same as introducing new medicinals

to the Chinese pharmacoepia.

 

I am not saying you are wrong, just, why should I accept what you

say if I cannot find it in any CM text? Is it based on your clinical

experience?

 

 

On Jan 11, 2004, at 11:34 AM, James Ramholz wrote:

 

> , " bcataiji " wrote:

>> There are no adrenals in Chinese medicine, and it seems that you

> are implying that stimulating the adrenals (Western) would be

> accomplished in Chinese medicine only through acting on the Kidney.

> Is this true? >>>

>

>

>

> Brian:

>

> CM didn't end in the 19th century; or, perhaps it did for many. Many

> ideas from WM can be incorporated into CM; it doesn't have to stand

> still. Some CM needs to be updated and corrected in light of new

> knowledge.

>

> You can read more about this line of thinking in my article, " Organs

> and Their Associated Pulses " , in the Files section of this forum.

> Some of those new ideas are already in the Shen/Hammer system and

> found independently in the Dong Han system, such as the association

> of a wiry pulse with nervous tension. An important concept in the

> context of our culture.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

wrote:

> , " James Ramholz "

> <jramholz@m...> wrote:

>

> > Brian:

> >

> > CM didn't end in the 19th century; or, perhaps it did for many.

Many

> > ideas from WM can be incorporated into CM; it doesn't have to

stand

> > still. Some CM needs to be updated and corrected in light of new

> > knowledge.

> >

> > You can read more about this line of thinking in my

article, " Organs

> > and Their Associated Pulses " , in the Files section of this

forum.

> > Some of those new ideas are already in the Shen/Hammer system

and

> > found independently in the Dong Han system, such as the

association

> > of a wiry pulse with nervous tension. An important concept in

the

> > context of our culture.

> >

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

>

> I understand all of what you say, but I do believe a system can

change

> enough that it is no longer considered to be the same system.

>

> Continuously injecting Western medicine into Chinese medicine will

> turn it into something other than Chinese medicine. Yes, in some

> regard it is still " Chinese " because it is practiced in China by

> Chinese people, but that does not make it the same as Chinese

> medicine. For example, if I take it upon myself to change what I

> learned about Chinese medicine, added notions from Western

medicine,

> Wicca, and Egyptian sorcery, why should it still be called Chinese

> medicine? There has to be line somewhere, otherwise, any type of

> medicine could be called Chinese medicine.

>

> Brian C. Allen

 

B,

 

Think this opens up a huge can of worms... When is the line drawn?

1850, 1500, 1949? What is (I feel a presence, I

think I am channeling Ken) ... Is auricular CM? Is injection

therapy? Are we talking about modalities, location, theory? These

questions I feel have no answer, because depending on who one talks

to, the answer will change. The are purists, classicalists,

modernists, innovators, integrators, etc etc, etc. I would not feel

comfortable in drawing lines, and try to allow for anything that has

enough experience, education, with groundedness. My lines are

usually drawn, when someone does not have access to CM literature

and starts MSUing… But MSU + TIME + clinical results (may) equal

something useful.. I am just trying to figure out if there is anyway

to create new stuff here in the states w/o access to literature???

Don't know… Big topic.. But the fact is there is no 1 way… Comments…

 

-

[Guest guest]

here is the article link for those who missed it:

 

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/coffee.htm

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> here is the article link for those who missed it:

>

> http://www.itmonline.org/arts/coffee.htm

 

in which SD writes:

 

In the Chinese medical-dietary system, the green bean of coffee would be

classified

as an herb that regulates liver qi, which is its therapeutic route to strong

energy

stimulation (attributed chemically to caffeine's action on the nervous system).

The

green bean is of the color of the wood element (associated with liver); more

important

to classification, however, is the concept that when the liver qi is

constrained, the

entire body energy becomes depressed. By vigorously dredging the stagnated

liver

qi, a strong sense of mental and physical vitality is experienced. The early

use of

coffee beans to regulate menstruation is consistent with the Chinese medical

approach of regulating menstruation by dredging stagnant liver qi. The green

coffee

bean also cools the constrained liver qi. When the bean is roasted, it retains

its basic

medicinal properties, but transforms from a cooling herb to a warming herb.

Roasting herbs is a common processing method used in China.

[Guest guest]

I think that it is fine to look at different modalities, as the Chinese

have done, but that there should be a distinction about what has been

the core teaching of Chinese medicine, and what has been added on in

recent times. Many of these developments are in acupuncture as opposed

to herbal medicine, interestingly enough. Herbal medicine has not

really changed that much in its practice, even with access to WM data.

 

I think the profession needs to develop criteria to examine new ideas

critically, and not just accept any new idea that comes along. Any one

practicing eclectic medicine, or proposing new treatments,

prescriptions, point combinations, etc. should be able to present these

ideas professionally in a way that can be examined by professionals.

 

 

On Jan 11, 2004, at 12:14 PM, wrote:

 

> B,

>

> Think this opens up a huge can of worms... When is the line drawn?

> 1850, 1500, 1949? What is (I feel a presence, I

> think I am channeling Ken) ... Is auricular CM? Is injection

> therapy? Are we talking about modalities, location, theory? These

> questions I feel have no answer, because depending on who one talks

> to, the answer will change. The are purists, classicalists,

> modernists, innovators, integrators, etc etc, etc. I would not feel

> comfortable in drawing lines, and try to allow for anything that has

> enough experience, education, with groundedness. My lines are

> usually drawn, when someone does not have access to CM literature

> and starts MSUing… But MSU + TIME + clinical results (may) equal

> something useful.. I am just trying to figure out if there is anyway

> to create new stuff here in the states w/o access to literature???

> Don't know… Big topic.. But the fact is there is no 1 way… Comments…

>

> -