misconceptions persist?

[Guest guest]

You are going to have to explain how an excess allows an external invasion...

seems

to me there has to a deficiency at some link in the chain. Obviously, Yu Ping

Feng is

not for " everyone " .

As to using CM theory creatively, go for it... however perhaps not for " total

disregard " ... using it creatively means being responsible for the outcome. If it

works....

However what I often see as creativity is actually students and practitioners

crossing

over into more comfortable paradigms, WM or other systems, to justify treatment.

This I would say is not creative TCM, simply abandonment of the TCM princibles.

doug

 

 

, wrote:

> I was told by a recent grad from PCOM:

>

> 1. all px should use yu ping feng san to protect against cold and flu;

> she said all people would benefit from supplementing wei qi and could

> not understand my explanation of why this was incorrect (supplementing

> an excess patient would make it MORE likely to get a cold). In fact,

> she said our opposing points of view were just two equally valid

> interpretations of CM theory. Keeping an open mind, what do folks

> think about this? Is this an example where one view is right and the

> other is wrong, yet the wrong view either persists or is even

> predominant. Or is this a condition based treatment that works

> regardless of pattern.

>

> 2. getting a cold is good for immunity and a sign of strong immune

> system. I thought getting a cold meant one was invaded from outside

> because one was susceptible either due to excess or vacuity. It was

> not ever a good thing to get a cold. Fever burns the yin. cough

> depletes the qi. How can that be good. It is an idea in nature cure,

> clearing toxins and the like,but I never bought it. Am I being overly

> biased -- are there multiple points of view upon this within the CM

> literature or this another outside idea that been introduced into the

> void.

>

> I have met many students over the years who have gotten the impression

> from teachers that one can use CM theory any creative way they like,

> with total disregard for the actual history of use. Is that what is

> going on here?

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbs

>

> FAX:

>

>

[Guest guest]

There isn't a chance in hell that yu ping feng san is good for

'everyone'. Every prescription in Chinese medicine is designed to

treat a pattern, and not everyone has 'instability of the defense qi'.

One shouldn't falsely conceptualize that yu ping feng san is a 'cold or

flu preventative' to be taken indiscriminately.

 

I have never seen anything in Chinese medical literature that says that

colds or flus are 'good things', they are called evil qi for a reason.

In some situations, it may be possible that such external contractions

may burn up retained damp phlegm as a side effect, so to speak of the

disease pattern, so the patient actually feels better after recovering.

I've only seen this in short-term contractions, however.

 

We should find out if these ideas are actually taught at PCOM and other

schools, or if it is just fanciful thinking.

 

 

On Jan 4, 2004, at 11:52 AM, wrote:

 

> You are going to have to explain how an excess allows an external

> invasion... seems

> to me there has to a deficiency at some link in the chain. Obviously,

> Yu Ping Feng is

> not for " everyone " .

> As to using CM theory creatively, go for it... however perhaps not for

> " total

> disregard " ... using it creatively means being responsible for the

> outcome. If it

> works....

> However what I often see as creativity is actually students and

> practitioners crossing

> over into more comfortable paradigms, WM or other systems, to justify

> treatment.

> This I would say is not creative TCM, simply abandonment of the TCM

> princibles.

> doug

>

>

> ,

> wrote:

>> I was told by a recent grad from PCOM:

>>

>> 1. all px should use yu ping feng san to protect against cold and

>> flu;

>> she said all people would benefit from supplementing wei qi and could

>> not understand my explanation of why this was incorrect (supplementing

>> an excess patient would make it MORE likely to get a cold). In fact,

>> she said our opposing points of view were just two equally valid

>> interpretations of CM theory. Keeping an open mind, what do folks

>> think about this? Is this an example where one view is right and the

>> other is wrong, yet the wrong view either persists or is even

>> predominant. Or is this a condition based treatment that works

>> regardless of pattern.

>>

>> 2. getting a cold is good for immunity and a sign of strong immune

>> system. I thought getting a cold meant one was invaded from outside

>> because one was susceptible either due to excess or vacuity. It was

>> not ever a good thing to get a cold. Fever burns the yin. cough

>> depletes the qi. How can that be good. It is an idea in nature cure,

>> clearing toxins and the like,but I never bought it. Am I being overly

>> biased -- are there multiple points of view upon this within the CM

>> literature or this another outside idea that been introduced into the

>> void.

>>

>> I have met many students over the years who have gotten the

>> impression

>> from teachers that one can use CM theory any creative way they like,

>> with total disregard for the actual history of use. Is that what is

>> going on here?

>>

>>

>>

>> Chinese Herbs

>>

>> FAX:

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> You are going to have to explain how an excess allows an external invasion...

seems

> to me there has to a deficiency at some link in the chain.

 

Wouldn't any factor that disrupted the flow of wei qi possibly lead to a

susceptible

exterior. I think phlegm accumulation prior to a cold is often a predisposing

factor in

why the wind pathogen is not simply expelled by the wei. Perhaps this is rooted

in

spleen vacuity. but perhaps it is due solely to smoking.

 

Excess patients get colds, don't they? Does ma huang tang pattern assume

vacuity

anywhere in the process. what about epidemic qi that can overwhelm anyone

regardless of health. Could liver qi depression be a factor in susceptibility?

What if

wei qi flow is inhibited due to liver depression. Am I making stuff up yet?

Just

actually asking for either confirmation or rebuttal.

 

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

In some situations, it may be possible that such external contractions

> may burn up retained damp phlegm as a side effect, so to speak of the

> disease pattern, so the patient actually feels better after recovering.

 

that's an interesting idea that would explain the naturopathic observation that

people

are less " toxic " or filled with " mucous " after a cold. is there precedent in

the CM

literature for this idea? perhaps the dampness recedes due to lack of appetite

and

consumption of light foods like soups. If the fever actually burns up

damp-phlegm,

this does sound like a good thing: a pathogen causing healing. however at the

expense of yin and qi? there are better ways, but in the absence of other

means,

crude methods like sweating may be quite curative. perhaps that's all you need

if you

live a natural active life and eat wholesome foods only. An occasional sweat.

 

[Guest guest]

I hope it is just fanciful thinking. Granted I use Yu Ping Feng San with

many of my patients at this time of year but not by any means all. I think

that in general we tend o see more patients who are of a vacuous nature and

many of them tend to get frequent colds, especially in the winter, at the

change of seasons and during menstruation. In many of these cases Yu Ping

Feng San is appropriate. But, in some cases it is not and the reason for

their susceptibility to external invasion of evil needs to be more closely

examined.

 

As far as creativity goes, I tend to think that often the excuse of

creativity or " two different but valid opinions " is given when there is

actually lack of knowledge present. I try to discourage it in the

student/recent graduate. Give me a solid theory based reason that makes

sense before trying to be creative - you may find that the need for

creativity is not as great as you think.

 

Marnae

 

At 12:02 PM 1/4/2004 -0800, you wrote:

>There isn't a chance in hell that yu ping feng san is good for

>'everyone'. Every prescription in Chinese medicine is designed to

>treat a pattern, and not everyone has 'instability of the defense qi'.

>One shouldn't falsely conceptualize that yu ping feng san is a 'cold or

>flu preventative' to be taken indiscriminately.

>

>I have never seen anything in Chinese medical literature that says that

>colds or flus are 'good things', they are called evil qi for a reason.

>In some situations, it may be possible that such external contractions

>may burn up retained damp phlegm as a side effect, so to speak of the

>disease pattern, so the patient actually feels better after recovering.

> I've only seen this in short-term contractions, however.

>

>We should find out if these ideas are actually taught at PCOM and other

>schools, or if it is just fanciful thinking.

>

>

>On Jan 4, 2004, at 11:52 AM, wrote:

>

> > You are going to have to explain how an excess allows an external

> > invasion... seems

> > to me there has to a deficiency at some link in the chain. Obviously,

> > Yu Ping Feng is

> > not for " everyone " .

> > As to using CM theory creatively, go for it... however perhaps not for

> > " total

> > disregard " ... using it creatively means being responsible for the

> > outcome. If it

> > works....

> > However what I often see as creativity is actually students and

> > practitioners crossing

> > over into more comfortable paradigms, WM or other systems, to justify

> > treatment.

> > This I would say is not creative TCM, simply abandonment of the TCM

> > princibles.

> > doug

> >

> >

> > ,

> > wrote:

> >> I was told by a recent grad from PCOM:

> >>

> >> 1. all px should use yu ping feng san to protect against cold and

> >> flu;

> >> she said all people would benefit from supplementing wei qi and could

> >> not understand my explanation of why this was incorrect (supplementing

> >> an excess patient would make it MORE likely to get a cold). In fact,

> >> she said our opposing points of view were just two equally valid

> >> interpretations of CM theory. Keeping an open mind, what do folks

> >> think about this? Is this an example where one view is right and the

> >> other is wrong, yet the wrong view either persists or is even

> >> predominant. Or is this a condition based treatment that works

> >> regardless of pattern.

> >>

> >> 2. getting a cold is good for immunity and a sign of strong immune

> >> system. I thought getting a cold meant one was invaded from outside

> >> because one was susceptible either due to excess or vacuity. It was

> >> not ever a good thing to get a cold. Fever burns the yin. cough

> >> depletes the qi. How can that be good. It is an idea in nature cure,

> >> clearing toxins and the like,but I never bought it. Am I being overly

> >> biased -- are there multiple points of view upon this within the CM

> >> literature or this another outside idea that been introduced into the

> >> void.

> >>

> >> I have met many students over the years who have gotten the

> >> impression

> >> from teachers that one can use CM theory any creative way they like,

> >> with total disregard for the actual history of use. Is that what is

> >> going on here?

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Chinese Herbs

> >>

> >> FAX:

> >>

> >>

[Guest guest]

Todd - yes, replete patients do get colds. But remember, repletion is not

exactly always pathological. For example in a Ma Huang Tang pattern the

person themselves may not have a pathologically replete condition prior to

the invasion of the external evil. However, the evil was, in the end,

stronger than the person's wei qi (this does not mean that they have a

vacuity of wei qi). This is the basic mechanism of why it is appropriate

to use MHT - the individual has no vacuity but an evil has invaded.

 

Or, as you indicate other pathologically replete conditions might cause the

wei qi to become temporarily inhibited or 'otherwise occupied' and allow an

evil to invade - still not a reason to put the patient on Yu Ping Feng San

- although if ultimately they get colds frequently then their lung and wei

qi might indeed be damaged and Yu Ping Feng San may, at that point become

appropriate - while continuing to treat the original condition. IMO

 

Marnae

 

 

At 08:21 PM 1/4/2004 +0000, you wrote:

> , " " wrote:

> > You are going to have to explain how an excess allows an external

> invasion...

>seems

> > to me there has to a deficiency at some link in the chain.

>

>Wouldn't any factor that disrupted the flow of wei qi possibly lead to a

>susceptible

>exterior. I think phlegm accumulation prior to a cold is often a

>predisposing factor in

>why the wind pathogen is not simply expelled by the wei. Perhaps this is

>rooted in

>spleen vacuity. but perhaps it is due solely to smoking.

>

>Excess patients get colds, don't they? Does ma huang tang pattern assume

>vacuity

>anywhere in the process. what about epidemic qi that can overwhelm anyone

>regardless of health. Could liver qi depression be a factor in

>susceptibility? What if

>wei qi flow is inhibited due to liver depression. Am I making stuff up

>yet? Just

>actually asking for either confirmation or rebuttal.

>

>Todd

>

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

>board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

>free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, wrote:

> I was told by a recent grad from PCOM:

> 1. all px should use yu ping feng san to protect against cold and

flu >>>

 

This could be a good idea. Yu Ping Feng San is an abreviated version

of a more balanced modification of Tuo Li Xiao Du Yin, which I use

for general immune system support. The larger formula is more

balanced and stronger in its support. Taking it before the cold and

flu season, people have reported fewer instances of both cold and

flu.

 

 

> 2. getting a cold is good for immunity and a sign of strong

immune system. I thought getting a cold meant one was invaded from

outside because one was susceptible either due to excess or

vacuity. It was not ever a good thing to get a cold.>>

 

You are correct, Todd. We all get exposed to cold and flu viruses;

so our bodies are always fighting and making antibodies to those

virus. But if we are weak and develop symptoms, it means our immune

system is not strong enough to fight it off immediately. We can see

that struggle in the pulses often before any symptoms appear.

 

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> Wouldn't any factor that disrupted the flow of wei qi possibly

lead to a susceptible exterior. I think phlegm accumulation prior

to a cold is often a predisposing factor in why the wind pathogen is

not simply expelled by the wei. Perhaps this is rooted in spleen

vacuity. >>>

 

This is an excellent point and corrctly describes the general

condition for, at least, the last several years. Phlegm accumulation

was especially prevalent this year (Ram/Earth) prior to the cold and

flu seasson. In fact, cold and flu started here in Colorado with the

Chinese season Han Lu, Cold Dew, early in October.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

At 8:27 PM +0000 1/4/04, wrote:

>perhaps that's all you need if you

>live a natural active life and eat wholesome foods only. An occasional sweat.

--

 

 

 

Not so sure. I regularly run long distances, and sweat appropriately.

I still have just contracted a cold with some phlegm manifestations,

dammit!

 

Rory

--

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

From what I understand of ma huang tang, this is wind cold attack in a

replete patient who contracts a repletion cold evil. So, yes, replete

patients can contract cold. And, yes, epidemic qi can overwhelm even

healthy patients, although there are factors of seasonal qi and

environmental issues to consider that can create mass susceptibility.

 

 

>>>>The classics are full of varying ideas on this. There are many references to

one needing to be deficient for exterior evil to enter and others that classify

the evil as regular as apposed to deficient evil and many more differing ideas

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, wrote:

 

> I have met many students over the years who have gotten the

impression

> from teachers that one can use CM theory any creative way they like,

> with total disregard for the actual history of use. Is that what is

> going on here?

 

I have been giving this thread some thought and trying to relate it to

the idea of standards that has been cropping up on CHA as well. I

came up with some ideas.

 

When studying taijiquan, there is a group of core basics that MUST be

present, otherwise what is being done is just a mimic of taijiquan and

not real taijiquan.

 

Furthermore, the classical literature also lists many prohibitions,

common mistakes, or things that are not considered taijiquan, even if

the core basics are being employed. This limits what taijiquan is by

stating what it is not. This is why there are many differences among

internal martial arts even though they have the some group of core basics.

 

This should apply to CM as well. I realize that standards have yet to

be hashed out, but some on this forum realize the importance for it.

While this is fine, I believe that it is also important to state what

CM is not. By coming up with a list of common misconceptions, less

common misconceptions, and drawing a hard line on concepts that people

often try to use as crossover concepts from other medical systems, CM

can be more clearly defined as become less of the free for all.

 

I would really like to see something like this in place at PCOM,

to keep students from straying mentally because either they do not

know, or their instruction is not clear enough.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

Wei qi must be weaker than the pathogenic. If the patient is excess in other

ways then

the Wei is still too weak. Perhaps the excesses have caused a weakness. It may

be that

the strength of a pathogens is so strong that it is impossible to counteract

many

" evils " , as Z'ev points out. And of course, in the healthy patient, the evil is

repelled

with force and the patient may have bad symptoms for a short time while in the

qi

deficient patient may have lesser symptoms for a longer time as the pathogens go

deeper.

Still, I think we all agree to say " all " patients must take something is not

right.

 

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

> From what I understand of ma huang tang, this is wind cold attack in a

> replete patient who contracts a repletion cold evil. So, yes, replete

> patients can contract cold. And, yes, epidemic qi can overwhelm even

> healthy patients, although there are factors of seasonal qi and

> environmental issues to consider that can create mass susceptibility.

>

>

> >>>>The classics are full of varying ideas on this. There are many references

to

one needing to be deficient for exterior evil to enter and others that classify

the evil

as regular as apposed to deficient evil and many more differing ideas

> Alon

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> Wei qi must be weaker than the pathogenic. If the patient is excess in other

ways

then

> the Wei is still too weak. Perhaps the excesses have caused a weakness.

 

Is that what an excess does? cause a weakness. so if phlegm impairs lung

function

of spreading wei, then has the phlegm caused a wei qi vacuity. I don't see it

that way.

more like a wei qi stagnation.

 

[Guest guest]

With cold damage expressing as an exterior cold repletion tai yang

pattern, the exposure to cold blocks the flow of wei qi at the

exterior, causing aching, chills, mild heat effusion, and aching of the

joints. The pulse is floating and replete. Clearly, this is not a

vacuity pattern in any sense of the term.

 

Having said that, more patients seem to suffer from vacuity patterns

than repletion patterns, so I can understand why Doug may think that

exterior contractions always manifest as vacuity in some form. A pure

ma huang tang pattern is not common, especially in Southern California.

 

 

On Jan 4, 2004, at 7:15 PM, wrote:

 

> , " "

> wrote:

>> Wei qi must be weaker than the pathogenic. If the patient is excess

>> in other ways

> then

>> the Wei is still too weak. Perhaps the excesses have caused a

>> weakness.

>

> Is that what an excess does? cause a weakness. so if phlegm impairs

> lung function

> of spreading wei, then has the phlegm caused a wei qi vacuity. I

> don't see it that way.

> more like a wei qi stagnation.

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

 

>

> Having said that, more patients seem to suffer from vacuity patterns

> than repletion patterns,

 

certainly those who get frequent colds and flus. but remember we were talking

about

healthy practitioners who may not have any tendency to get colds under normal

circumstances. they just think since they will be exposed to a lot of sick

people, what

could it hurt to supplement the wei qi. while the idea of wei qi stagnation may

not be

" textbook " per se, I think it is implicit, both in ma huang tang pattern and the

phlegm

accumulation I describe. In both of these types of patients (whether just a

strong

constitution or an actual excess), the giving of yu ping feng san prior to the

cold

would probably only worsen matters. How can supplementing someone who has a

yang constitution or phlegm excess help in any way? wouldn't giving this rx

unmodified serve to increase yang qi, qi stagnation and thus phlegm? Having an

excess of yang qi does not make one impervious to colds, it just makes the colds

manifest differently.

 

[Guest guest]

Todd and Z'ev, good points...

but... it just seems to me that wei qi if " defensive " and hasn't defended is

weaker than

the pathogen. It may be strong but compared to the evil it is more " deficient " .

Does

Cold stagnate Wei which is more deficient than Wei that is not?

Evil qi may penetrate and be forced back by the deeper forces, the ying.

Therefore the

replete floating pulse (as opposed to a floating deficient one). So the question

remains, can Wei qi be filled to capacity? Will Yu Ping Feng help someone who is

not

otherwise deficient against an otherwise strong pathogen?

 

I don't know if I am splitting hairs or getting to a " deeper understanding " ...

:-)

doug

 

 

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> With cold damage expressing as an exterior cold repletion tai yang

> pattern, the exposure to cold blocks the flow of wei qi at the

> exterior, causing aching, chills, mild heat effusion, and aching of the

> joints. The pulse is floating and replete. Clearly, this is not a

> vacuity pattern in any sense of the term.

>

> Having said that, more patients seem to suffer from vacuity patterns

> than repletion patterns, so I can understand why Doug may think that

> exterior contractions always manifest as vacuity in some form. A pure

> ma huang tang pattern is not common, especially in Southern California.

>

>

> On Jan 4, 2004, at 7:15 PM, wrote:

>

> > , " "

> > wrote:

> >> Wei qi must be weaker than the pathogenic. If the patient is excess

> >> in other ways

> > then

> >> the Wei is still too weak. Perhaps the excesses have caused a

> >> weakness.

> >

> > Is that what an excess does? cause a weakness. so if phlegm impairs

> > lung function

> > of spreading wei, then has the phlegm caused a wei qi vacuity. I

> > don't see it that way.

> > more like a wei qi stagnation.

> >

>

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

> > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

> > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> you're right about all of this of course. I was hair-splitting about the

" deficiency " ... to me stagnant Wei means that some part of Wei is not somewhere

else

but that's a bit of MOS. If someone has phlegm does that not also mean a

deficiency

somewhere in the system? Anyway....

 

 

here are your original posts:

 

 

 

 

I was told by a recent grad from PCOM:

 

1. all px should use yu ping feng san to protect against cold and flu;

she said all people would benefit from supplementing wei qi and could

not understand my explanation of why this was incorrect (supplementing

an excess patient would make it MORE likely to get a cold). In fact,

she said our opposing points of view were just two equally valid

interpretations of CM theory. Keeping an open mind, what do folks

think about this? Is this an example where one view is right and the

other is wrong, yet the wrong view either persists or is even

predominant. Or is this a condition based treatment that works

regardless of pattern.

 

2. getting a cold is good for immunity and a sign of strong immune

system. I thought getting a cold meant one was invaded from outside

because one was susceptible either due to excess or vacuity. It was

not ever a good thing to get a cold. Fever burns the yin. cough

depletes the qi. How can that be good. It is an idea in nature cure,

clearing toxins and the like,but I never bought it. Am I being overly

biased -- are there multiple points of view upon this within the CM

literature or this another outside idea that been introduced into the

void.

 

I have met many students over the years who have gotten the impression

from teachers that one can use CM theory any creative way they like,

with total disregard for the actual history of use. Is that what is

going on here?

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

[Guest guest]

In the Shang Han Lun, in the chapter on " Cold Damage Exterior Repletion

Patterns " , in the discussion of ma huang tang, obstruction of the

defense yang is mentioned. The repletion cold evil obstructs the wei

qi and causes aversion to cold, and the struggle with the cold evil

causes heat effusion. Also, the pores are blocked, so there is no

sweating.

 

The only patterns for defense qi I could find in the zhong yi da ci

dian/ Great Dictionary are wei qi bu gu/insecurity of

defense qi, and wei qi shi chang/loss of normality of defense qi, and

both of these include sweating, and are a result of vacuity.

 

For phlegm stagnation, we can mention phlegm obstructing the network

vessels of the lungs, phlegm-heat obstructing the lungs, phlegm-damp

obstructing the lung, and phlegm-turbidity obstructing the lungs, which

are repletion patterns, but may be combined with vacuity unlike the tai

yang repletion exterior pattern.

 

Replete or stagnant yang qi patterns generally will only arise after

prolonged exposure to cold, whereas defense qi instability patterns can

manifest with just stepping outside on a slightly breezy or cool day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Jan 4, 2004, at 9:45 PM, wrote:

 

> while the idea of wei qi stagnation may not be

> " textbook " per se, I think it is implicit, both in ma huang tang

> pattern and the phlegm

> accumulation I describe. In both of these types of patients (whether

> just a strong

> constitution or an actual excess), the giving of yu ping feng san

> prior to the cold

> would probably only worsen matters. How can supplementing someone who

> has a

> yang constitution or phlegm excess help in any way? wouldn't giving

> this rx

> unmodified serve to increase yang qi, qi stagnation and thus phlegm?

> Having an

> excess of yang qi does not make one impervious to colds, it just makes

> the colds

> manifest differently.

[Guest guest]

The image I would use here, Doug, is like an ice jam clogging a harbor

so the patrol boats can't move. It is a result of the cold and ice, not

the patrol boats inability to patrol the harbor.

 

The ying/constructive is also blocked, leading to a lack of nourishment

and moistening of the sinews, which explains the body aches.

 

 

On Jan 4, 2004, at 10:05 PM, wrote:

 

and Z'ev, good points...

> but... it just seems to me that wei qi if " defensive " and hasn't

> defended is weaker than

> the pathogen. It may be strong but compared to the evil it is more

> " deficient " . Does

> Cold stagnate Wei which is more deficient than Wei that is not?

> Evil qi may penetrate and be forced back by the deeper forces, the

> ying. Therefore the

> replete floating pulse (as opposed to a floating deficient one). So

> the question

> remains, can Wei qi be filled to capacity? Will Yu Ping Feng help

> someone who is not

> otherwise deficient against an otherwise strong pathogen?

[Guest guest]

Ok, thanks, its a great way to explain it!

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> The image I would use here, Doug, is like an ice jam clogging a harbor

> so the patrol boats can't move. It is a result of the cold and ice, not

> the patrol boats inability to patrol the harbor.

>

> The ying/constructive is also blocked, leading to a lack of nourishment

> and moistening of the sinews, which explains the body aches.

>

>

> On Jan 4, 2004, at 10:05 PM, wrote:

>

[Guest guest]

I just had 'Herbs 6' at PCOM NY - we were told specifically to resist the

thinking that yu ping feng san could be given to everyone as a 'preventative' in

the cold and flu season. Our teacher said use it only if the patient fits the

sign and symptom profile.

 

RoseAnne Spradlin

3rd yr student, PCOM-NY

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

> From what I understand of ma huang tang, this is wind cold attack in a

> replete patient who contracts a repletion cold evil. So, yes, replete

> patients can contract cold. And, yes, epidemic qi can overwhelm even

> healthy patients, although there are factors of seasonal qi and

> environmental issues to consider that can create mass susceptibility.

 

Is a person with a " replete " habitual body or " constitution " necessarily

healthy. Don't they have a yang repletion? That's how I was

taught to understand the tai yang body type. The tai yang body type is not

healthy. They have their own imbalances and

susceptibilities. In this case, mightn't this lead to the defensive qi

" evaporating " too quickly from the exterior, thus leaving the

interstices not densely packed and thus the exterior insecure. Yang replete

persons often have a tendency to sweat easily, therefore

allowing wind cold evils to enter " ghost gates " (gui men) which are open, not

closed. Further, yang replete persons tend to have

dampness and phlegm from over-eating, in turn due to their exceptionally hot

(replete) stomach qi. " The lungs are the place where

phlegm is stored. " Phlegm obstructs the function of the lungs to depurate and

downbear. This function of the lungs includes the

diffusion of the defensive qi. Perhaps this has something to do with such

patients when they externally contract wind cold evils. I

guess I am questioning the equation of a replete habitual body with the idea

that such a person is " healthy. "

 

In any given outbreak of rhinovirus, 50% of those who contract the virus never

exhibit signs and symptoms of disease. I believe that all

who do exhibit disease do have some predisposing factor that has allowed them to

be invaded and become diseased by external evils.

The Nei Jing says that there MUST be a righteous qi vacuity. It doesn't say

there must be a " defensive qi " vacuity, and righteous qi

includes both righteous or correct yin and yang substances in the body,

remembering that, to Chinese, qi is a form of insubstantial

stuff. Even in epidemics of extremely pestilential qi, there are always some who

exhibit immunity. Although I don't necessarily think

that everything the Nei Jing says is true, I do think we can square this

particular saying with modern immunology. However, first we

need to be very careful in how we understand and use Chinese medical technical

terms.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob -

 

First of all, these were my comments, not Alon's, just to be clear.

 

 

At 04:47 PM 1/5/2004 +0000, you wrote:

> , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

>wrote:

> > From what I understand of ma huang tang, this is wind cold attack in a

> > replete patient who contracts a repletion cold evil. So, yes, replete

> > patients can contract cold. And, yes, epidemic qi can overwhelm even

> > healthy patients, although there are factors of seasonal qi and

> > environmental issues to consider that can create mass susceptibility.

>

>Is a person with a " replete " habitual body or " constitution " necessarily

>healthy. Don't they have a yang repletion?

 

 

I did not use my words as carefully as I should have. Yes, someone who has

a replete constitution does have a yang repletion. What I was trying to

say here is that when there is a Ma Huang Tang pattern isn't the idea that

that the evil that has invaded is stronger than the constitution of the

individual, but that the individual themselves is not displaying any signs

of a vacuity, thus there is a repletion evil in an otherwise strong and

healthy patient? Assuming appropriate treatment after the evil is resolved

the individual should return to their healthy state.

 

 

>That's how I was

>taught to understand the tai yang body type. The tai yang body type is not

>healthy. They have their own imbalances and

>susceptibilities. In this case, mightn't this lead to the defensive qi

> " evaporating " too quickly from the exterior, thus leaving the

>interstices not densely packed and thus the exterior insecure. Yang

>replete persons often have a tendency to sweat easily, therefore

>allowing wind cold evils to enter " ghost gates " (gui men) which are open,

>not closed. Further, yang replete persons tend to have

>dampness and phlegm from over-eating, in turn due to their exceptionally

>hot (replete) stomach qi. " The lungs are the place where

>phlegm is stored. " Phlegm obstructs the function of the lungs to depurate

>and downbear. This function of the lungs includes the

>diffusion of the defensive qi. Perhaps this has something to do with such

>patients when they externally contract wind cold evils. I

>guess I am questioning the equation of a replete habitual body with the

>idea that such a person is " healthy. "

>

>In any given outbreak of rhinovirus, 50% of those who contract the virus

>never exhibit signs and symptoms of disease. I believe that all

>who do exhibit disease do have some predisposing factor that has allowed

>them to be invaded and become diseased by external evils.

 

Could it not just be that that day they " let their defenses down " , got

tired, were outside too long or whatever? Does there really have to be a

vacuity? If so then is it appropriate to use MHT or would GZT be better?

 

 

>The Nei Jing says that there MUST be a righteous qi vacuity. It doesn't

>say there must be a " defensive qi " vacuity, and righteous qi

>includes both righteous or correct yin and yang substances in the body,

>remembering that, to Chinese, qi is a form of insubstantial

>stuff. Even in epidemics of extremely pestilential qi, there are always

>some who exhibit immunity. Although I don't necessarily think

>that everything the Nei Jing says is true, I do think we can square this

>particular saying with modern immunology. However, first we

>need to be very careful in how we understand and use Chinese medical

>technical terms.

 

 

Sorry about the confusion here.

 

Marnae

 

 

>Bob

 

 

 

>

>

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

>board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

>free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

but that the individual themselves is not displaying any signs

of a vacuity, thus there is a repletion evil in an otherwise strong and

healthy patient? Assuming appropriate treatment after the evil is resolved

the individual should return to their healthy state

>>>>Now you are getting to what many SHL practitioners call strong confirmation

and the ideas of confirmation in general. A generally strong healthy person is

often said to be of strong confirmation, not just as it has to do with exterior

symptoms

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

>The Nei Jing says that there MUST be a righteous qi vacuity. It doesn't

>say there must be a " defensive qi " vacuity, and righteous qi

>includes both righteous or correct yin and yang substances in the body,

>remembering that,

>>>>>>>>It also says that even if righteous is not def the skin can be open (ie

sweating) and then evil can penetrate.

Alon