CM books & continuing education

[Guest guest]

 

I thought the program at ACOS was excellent. I unfortunately had to

leave after one year because I could not get my finances to line up

for study " abroad " .

 

The principal of the school is a Canadian who completed the 5 year

TCM program in Beijing in Chinese, and is trying to make the program

at ACOS as close as possible to what he experienced in China. He is

unwavering in his assertion that fluency in medical Chinese is

essential to continued growth for the practitioner and for true

mastery of the subject.

 

I have to say that I find this logic convincing. With respect to the

DAOM - even just for clinical specialties - I can't see how one can

truly be considered a specialist/doctor without access to the primary

literature. I know I'm just echoing the thoughts of Ken, Emmanuel,

and others on this, but this is how I see it as a recently graduated,

non Chinese literate practitioner.

 

What I can't quite get a handle on is the difficulty those

responsible for designing programs at TCM colleges say they have when

trying to find room for Chinese language study. I'll have to look at

different colleges' curicula, because I'm really just ignorant of

what range of programs are out there, but my impression back when I

was " shopping " for schools was that ACOS had as comprehensive a

program as any (more than most, actually) and they fit 180 hours of

language study into theirs. But I'll have to go look...

 

-Chad

[Guest guest]

, " chadwick_m "

<chadwick_m@h...> wrote:

 

 

>

With respect to the

> DAOM - even just for clinical specialties - I can't see how one can

> truly be considered a specialist/doctor without access to the

primary

> literature. I know I'm just echoing the thoughts of Ken, Emmanuel,

> and others on this, but this is how I see it as a recently

graduated,

> non Chinese literate practitioner.

>

Perhaps what is neccesary is a prerequisite of at least a year of

basic chinese before acceptance into any of the DAOM programs. This

way limitations on time spent teaching chinese in these programs

won't stifle the usefulness of such a thing. It will also help to

weed out prospective students who perhaps aren't all that dedicated

to a life of learning and merely desiring the status symbol of a

DAOM. Being somewhat of a bibliophile, i can honestly say...that

there comes a point where you sort of reach a dead end in english

based studies of anything not originally english. Albeit, it is

somewhat of an extreme example, but in order to make a good daoist

scholar for instance, you need not only to have a good command of

english and chinese, but also japanese, french and even german. This

is because many writers of those native languages have contributed so

much to the field. If you can't access their thoughts, then you

can't be considered an expert.

There's also the question of what kinds of things should be

emphasized in beginners learning chinese, as has been recently

debated on this forum. It seems largely like in many ways learning

to read the classics are emphasized above all things as primary.

While, students have decent access now to some good working

translations of classics with pinyin and graphs listed, i still

question the efficiency and sense of beginners studying classical

chinese. While the literature of chinese medicine is a mixed bag,

often of modern and literary/classical styles superimposed; i for one

think it might be more useful for students to first learn modern

chinese. Translating classics should be left to the experts, while

students learning modern chinese would be opening up more potential

for themselves. First of all, there would be the greater ease of

accessing chinese culture first hand and interning in hospitals or

under special guidance. Second of all, students could focus on

medical journals, which offer much in the matter of clinical

usefulness, contribution to the field and are often short enough

(articles) to be a meaningful project.

On of the biggest challenges to reading this sort of literature is

the biomedical termininology. Hong yen hsu's " Western names for

chinese disease classes " , offers much help in this regard, but we

definitely need some sort of easily referenced chinese/english

biomedicine dictionary. I imagine the closest we got to something

like this is probably a good chinese/chinese biomedicla dictionary.

I still haven't come to terms with a good understanding of what

this DAOM, will really do for us as a profession. I still don't

understand who will really benefit from itall. There are so many

seasoned practitioners who would never pick up and desert their

practice, in order to go get a degree which is mostly symbolic. At

the same time, i don't see that individauls will be grandfathered in

if the DAOM replaces the masters program all together. I would love

to be a doctor, but why would i desert my practice, go into further

serious debt and spend all that time getting a bigger and better

status symbol, when instead i could spend a quarter of the sum and

learn in China, study chinese at a local university, take blue poppy

certification courses and so on.

How much interest has been shown in enlisting in these programs

and what kinds of people are applying? If i was a teacher at a

school offering a DAOM, it would seem beneficial to support it,

considering

the ease, by which the title could be assimilated. What about the

rest of us though. What about the entire east coast? We are

fragmenting as a profession.

just some thoughts.

matt

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> What I can't quite get a handle on is the difficulty those

> responsible for designing programs at TCM colleges say they have

when

> trying to find room for Chinese language study. I'll have to look

at

> different colleges' curicula, because I'm really just ignorant of

> what range of programs are out there, but my impression back when I

> was " shopping " for schools was that ACOS had as comprehensive a

> program as any (more than most, actually) and they fit 180 hours of

> language study into theirs. But I'll have to go look...

>

> -Chad

[Guest guest]

, " facteau8 " <facteau8>

wrote:

 

While the literature of chinese medicine is a mixed bag,

> often of modern and literary/classical styles superimposed; i for one

> think it might be more useful for students to first learn modern

> chinese. Translating classics should be left to the experts, while

> students learning modern chinese would be opening up more potential

> for themselves. First of all, there would be the greater ease of

> accessing chinese culture first hand and interning in hospitals or

> under special guidance. Second of all, students could focus on

> medical journals, which offer much in the matter of clinical

> usefulness, contribution to the field and are often short enough

> (articles) to be a meaningful project.

 

I agree 100%. While there are some who think the most immediate value

would come from studying the classics in chinese, I think most whom I have

talked to believe it is modern texts that are most practical. Z'ev thinks the

classics are easier because the gramar is easier. But I think the meaning is

too

complex and often too terse. Perhaps because Z'ev began to read chinese after

many years of pratice, his siutation is different than a beginner. He has

experience to guide him through the nuances. I think a beginner should just

sweat out the grammar and start with texts that have easily accessible

meaning. Beginners, even if they can read chinese, will likely draw

conclusions from classics that are erroneous. I find this to be analogus as to

whether one should study the translations of classics or rely more on modern

texts for basic TCM training ( I believe the latter).

 

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

I think a beginner should just sweat out the grammar and start with

texts that have easily accessible meaning. Beginners, even if they

can read chinese, will likely draw conclusions from classics that

are erroneous. I find this to be analogus as to whether one should

study the translations of classics or rely more on modern texts for

basic TCM training (I believe the latter). >>>

 

:

 

I think your comments are a very accurate and very practical

assessment.

 

The classics and their commentaries are often incomplete as

expositions of ideas; and full of controversy and contradiction.

Again, we can look at Stephen Birch's recent article in the EJOM as

an example of what can be found.

 

Modern texts are very simple and highly redundent. They would make a

good introduction for new translators or beginning practitioners.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

There are chinese/english biomedical dictionaries available, at

Eastwind Books/San Francisco as well as other places. Hong Yen-hsu's

book I cannot measure for accuracy, but I do know that the OHAI books

were hampered for years by substitutions for Chinese medical

terminology by rough biomedical equivalents, creating quite a bit of

confusion.

 

 

On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 09:07 AM, facteau8 wrote:

 

> On of the biggest challenges to reading this sort of literature is

> the biomedical termininology. Hong yen hsu's " Western names for

> chinese disease classes " , offers much help in this regard, but we

> definitely need some sort of easily referenced chinese/english

> biomedicine dictionary. I imagine the closest we got to something

> like this is probably a good chinese/chinese biomedicla dictionary.

[Guest guest]

I guess different strokes for different folks. I don't know how anyone

could find many of the journal articles, with their mixture of

classical quotations (sometimes in complex characters), biomedical

information, and modern Chinese can find it easier than some of the

simpler annotated classics, some with simplified characters and

commentary.

 

 

On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 09:07 AM, facteau8 wrote:

 

> Translating classics should be left to the experts, while

> students learning modern chinese would be opening up more potential

> for themselves. First of all, there would be the greater ease of

> accessing chinese culture first hand and interning in hospitals or

> under special guidance. Second of all, students could focus on

> medical journals, which offer much in the matter of clinical

> usefulness, contribution to the field and are often short enough

> (articles) to be a meaningful project.

>

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

I know you're based in the southwest and that might influence your

definition of CM " ghettos " where library's are actively used for study.

Last year NESA put in a security system (Check Point's radio wave

system) and our theft problem has gone down considerably -- nil. I can

say that because in February 03 we installed an excellent library

automation system -- web-based online catalog and circulation system, so

we can now more automatically monitor and access our holdings.

 

One of the good things about the new library system is the ability to

generate reports. For example, NESA's library processes an average of

174 new loans and 64 renewals per month.

 

We also keep track of who comes in: we see about 500 visits per month.

The library is open 41 hr/week. We have a student body of around 290.

Our collection includes ~3000 items (books & A/V) + 695 journal issues.

We actively glean our holdings and avoid keeping out-of-date biomed or

more than 2 circulating copies of any text.

 

For Feb 03 - July 03

- Loans: N=1042

- Renewals: N=386

 

Of these

- Students: Loans N=903; Renewals N=291

- Alum: Loans N=118; Renewals N=83

- Faculty/TA: Loans N=21; Renewals N=12

NB: Many of our faculty and especially our TAs are alum

 

We can always use more resources! But our situation here is that the

library (at ~800 sq ft plus a 200sq ft computer center) is too small for

the number of users we have and we don't have enough trained staff to

catalog the books that are sitting waiting to get on the shelves.

 

Students frequently ask me what books they should buy. My list includes

many of the CM classics, Deadman, Al Stone's herbal formula study guide,

Yifang Yang's herb comparison book, and Tyme's study guides.

 

Della Lawhon, MAOM, LAc, Dipl CH (NCCAOM), Kelly Library

New England School of Acupuncture

40 Belmont St

Watertown, MA 02472

617-926-3969

dlawhon

www.nesa.edu/library.html

 

 

 

 

Bob Flaws [pemachophel2001]

Friday, July 18, 2003 3:11 PM

 

Re: CM books & continuing education

 

 

 

Honora and I are big library users even though (or because) we are

publishers. However, I think library study within our profession is

pretty much confined to a few CM " ghettos, " such as San Diego,

Boulder, Santa Fe, and Portland. So I think your 50% number is quite a

bit too high, even if my 10% number is too low.

 

Further, many schools do not put the resources they should into

building and maintaining their libraries. A past librarian at your own

institution has told me of the cavalier (if not downright dismissive)

attitude of at least one major administrator to the PCOM library.

 

And then there's the problem of library theft.

 

Bob

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing

education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Della,

 

Interesting stats. Thanks. Sounds like you have a good system, if not

enough room.

 

Bob

 

, " Della Lawhon "

<dlawhon@n...> wrote:

> Bob,

>

> I know you're based in the southwest and that might influence your

> definition of CM " ghettos " where library's are actively used for

study.

> Last year NESA put in a security system (Check Point's radio wave

> system) and our theft problem has gone down considerably -- nil. I

can

> say that because in February 03 we installed an excellent library

> automation system -- web-based online catalog and circulation

system, so

> we can now more automatically monitor and access our holdings.

>

> One of the good things about the new library system is the ability

to

> generate reports. For example, NESA's library processes an average

of

> 174 new loans and 64 renewals per month.

>

> We also keep track of who comes in: we see about 500 visits per

month.

> The library is open 41 hr/week. We have a student body of around

290.

> Our collection includes ~3000 items (books & A/V) + 695 journal

issues.

> We actively glean our holdings and avoid keeping out-of-date biomed

or

> more than 2 circulating copies of any text.

>

> For Feb 03 - July 03

> - Loans: N=1042

> - Renewals: N=386

>

> Of these

> - Students: Loans N=903; Renewals N=291

> - Alum: Loans N=118; Renewals N=83

> - Faculty/TA: Loans N=21; Renewals N=12

> NB: Many of our faculty and especially our TAs are alum

>

> We can always use more resources! But our situation here is that the

> library (at ~800 sq ft plus a 200sq ft computer center) is too small

for

> the number of users we have and we don't have enough trained staff

to

> catalog the books that are sitting waiting to get on the shelves.

>

> Students frequently ask me what books they should buy. My list

includes

> many of the CM classics, Deadman, Al Stone's herbal formula study

guide,

> Yifang Yang's herb comparison book, and Tyme's study guides.

>

> Della Lawhon, MAOM, LAc, Dipl CH (NCCAOM)

> Director, Kelly Library

> New England School of Acupuncture

> 40 Belmont St

> Watertown, MA 02472

> 617-926-3969

> dlawhon@n...

> www.nesa.edu/library.html

>

>

>

>

> Bob Flaws [pemachophel2001]

> Friday, July 18, 2003 3:11 PM

>

> Re: CM books & continuing education

>

>

>

> Honora and I are big library users even though (or because) we are

> publishers. However, I think library study within our profession is

> pretty much confined to a few CM " ghettos, " such as San Diego,

> Boulder, Santa Fe, and Portland. So I think your 50% number is quite

a

> bit too high, even if my 10% number is too low.

>

> Further, many schools do not put the resources they should into

> building and maintaining their libraries. A past librarian at your

own

> institution has told me of the cavalier (if not downright

dismissive)

> attitude of at least one major administrator to the PCOM library.

>

> And then there's the problem of library theft.

>

> Bob

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

variety of

> professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bob:

 

As an extension of this, I also

support a two-tiered profession.

 

 

Marco:

 

you mean seperate couarse for acupuncture and herbal medicine.

 

Should that also be seperate for moxibustion?

 

In Japan aperantly there is a three tired system?

 

very intresting...

 

How was it through out history in Asian countries Vietnam Koreia Japan and

China etc...

 

Marco

[Guest guest]

Dear Z'ev,

 

I did not write it I was quoting Bob flaws (I think), something he said in a

previous letter and it stroked me as interesting to see what he and others

(he in the since as to " why " ) may think so.

 

Hence the following:

 

Bob:

 

As an extension of this, I also

support a two-tiered profession.

 

 

Marco:

 

you mean separate course for acupuncture and herbal medicine.

 

Should that also be separate for moxibustion?

 

In Japan apparently there is a three tired system?

 

very interesting...

 

How was it through out history in Asian countries Vietnam Korea Japan and

China etc...

 

Marco

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Why?

 

 

On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 03:53 PM, Marco wrote:

 

> As an extension of this, I also

> support a two-tiered profession.