xing and zheng

[Guest guest]

, Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...>

wrote:

> I hope (think) that Jiao is at least in part an exception.

 

we all love Jiao here. :-)

 

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> I saw a tally somewhere of over 95,000 recorded distinct formulae

 

 

 

:

 

Okay, I'll call; name those formulas! Just imagine if you had to

know 10%, or even a small portion of them, by heart for an exam.

 

I have some Chinese collections which must have many thousands of

formulas, so I don't doubt it. When I first buy any Chinese herbal

(or there's nothing good on TV) I just page through them and delight

in the variety of herbal strategies.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " " <

zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Marnae,

> I don't think that Todd or anyone else is disputing the importance

> of disease differentiation in Chinese medicine. Clearly, Chinese

> medicine also treats specific diseases. I think the issue is the

> modern simplification of pattern differentiation into typing

> differentiation/bian xing (which isn't in the Wiseman dictionary) that

> was developed by Western physicians such as Chen Ziyin in the 1950's

> (fenxing shi zhi/distinguishing types and applying treatment pg. 226 in

> Volker's book).

 

that is exactly correct. As most of you all know, I am strong advocate of

disease differentiation along with pattern differentiation. Which is why we

have organized our formulation classes around chinese disease categories

and not just patterns and pathomechanisms.

 

[Guest guest]

Tood,

 

It's been a while since I read Volker's book. However, whether or not

he actually makes this distinction, I think it's a useful distinction

to make. As this discussion suggests, it helps explain a lot of the

confusion and dissatisfaction with what people persist in calling TCM.

 

In my experience, if one wants to read about high level treatment

based on pattern discrimination in Chinese medicine, you typically

have to go to the case history literature. While there are some case

history books where the pattern discrimination is pretty simplistic,

when you find a really good anthology or a really good author, you see

biang zheng lun zhi as a high art. For me, this underscores that need

to have access to the entire CM literature. It also highlights that

certain genres of CM literature are good at doing different things and

that access to all these genres is necessary to get the full picture.

 

Bob

 

, " " <@i...>

wrote:

> , Marnae Ergil

<marnae@p...>

> wrote:

> > The xing that Scheid refers to means " mould; model; type;

pattern " . It

> > does not mean body, nor is it really a term that means

signs/symptoms.

> > Rather it refers to the a type or a pattern - again, bringing up

the point

> > that patterns and s/s were not really all that differentiated

until the

> > modern era.

>

> but Scheid does distinguish xing from zheng in the sense of the

modern

> standardization of TCM and thus names them differently. He portrays

xing as

> static isolated entities somewhat like biomedical diseases and zheng

as part

> of a process or web, I suppose. Or that is my reading of his words.

>

 

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz " <

jramholz> wrote:

While not a

> straight translation, he translates and discusses the history and

> development of the theory of Five Periods and Six Qi (wu yun liu

> qi), which was added to the Su Wen during the Tang era. Although it

> is not a 'how to' explanation, it's the most extensive and detailed

> study on the subject.

 

Jim

 

but, as usual, I want to know how common or well developed any given idea

was within chinese medical circles. the fact that it is rooted in the su wen is

only clinically relevant to me if later generations of doctors used the idea and

recorded their results. otherwise we have just an idea, but no clear

methodology to apply it. did many doctors write explicitly about using herbs to

prevent disease transmission via the five phases. Or is it a logical idea that

was never widely applied. If the latter is the case, why is this so. this is

not to

say that our generation is not free to read the ancient texts and develop our

applications based upon our own interpetations. that is what all the great

theorists have done. and as long as something is placed in the proper

context, I have no problem with its presentation. I like Fang's methodology on

paper, so now I want some evidence of its historical lineage with concrete

examples of how these ideas are applied.

 

You seemed pretty sure in another post on this topic that when Fang talked

about preventing disease transmission via the sheng or ke cycles, this

referred to disease that was detectable via the pulses. so it is still

asymptomatic, but the process of say wood overacting on liver has already

begun. It does not seem clear to me that this is correct. Why do you read it

that way?

 

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws " <

pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Tood,

>

> It's been a while since I read Volker's book. However, whether or not

> he actually makes this distinction, I think it's a useful distinction

> to make.

 

from page 226,

 

" physicians argued that differentiating types (xing) rather than patterns

(zheng) constituted an inferior form of practice... It was not a subtle enough

method to allow anunderstanding of multiply interconnected factors...Applying

fixed prescriptions of to types of illness was thus a simplification. "

 

he goes on to say on page 227,

 

" his allies succeeded in establishing the dominant position of pattern

differentiation on the level of discourse, clinical medicine is moving more and

more in the direction of type differentiation even if the types are often

labeled

as patterns [moderator's note: and therein lies the rub]. type distinction has

been adopted as the organizing framework for many textbooks and

research... "

 

[Guest guest]

but based onthe actions of herbs/dui yao mechanisms? Written from scratch?>>>Every day

alon

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

<<< but, as usual, I want to know how common or well developed any

given idea was within chinese medical circles. the fact that it is

rooted in the su wen is only clinically relevant to me if later

generations of doctors used the idea and recorded their results.

otherwise we have just an idea, but no clear methodology to apply

it. >>>

 

There is a different emphasis in my situation (this lineage, if not

Korea in general) that we use acupuncture as the primary method not

herbs. These ideas were certainly common practice with my Korean

teacher and probably with his teacher. We always discussed processes

in terms of 5-Phases and Western terminology. I really didn't know

any difference between what I studied and the standard Chinese

material until the NCCA exam came up for the first time and I had to

review TCM. Even today I like to comment to my students that nothing

of what I know is on the NCCAOM exam; it's only found in their

patients.

 

You can probably find examples of similar styles in China and other

countries if you look. Even if they don't have the popularity of

TCM, they are based on classical ideas and can be demonstrated. I

tend to look at things from an ahistorical perspective because, like

you, I want to know about what works---not what is popular.

 

The problems is that much of what went on wasn't written down.

Today, I'm the only one writing in English about Dong Han methods,

and there may not be anyone in Korea since much of it was kept

secret. But methodologies can be read about, developed, and applied.

I've done that with pulses and found the information to be

clinically useful and consistent. The fact that it is in the Su Wen

gives it credence to me and, at least, a place to start when the

discussion is indecipherable there.

 

 

 

> > You seemed pretty sure in another post on this topic that when

Fang talked about preventing disease transmission via the sheng or

ke cycles, this referred to disease that was detectable via the

pulses. so it is still asymptomatic, but the process of say wood

overacting on liver has already begun. It does not seem clear to me

that this is correct. Why do you read it that way? >>>

 

It can be detected in the pulses or calculated according to the

Chinese calendar. Things often appear in the pulse before symptoms

occur. Even when symptoms have not yet been detected, you should be

cable to see some evidence of wood overbearing on earth if it is

happening.

 

Another example: in the first seminar of my pulse series, I like to

show everyone a pulse pattern that has existed in about 10-20% of

the population since their early childhood. There is no direct

literature about it and, outside of the Dong Han system, no one has

even mentioned it; but its interpretation can be derived and

understood from the classical material. And while there are no overt

symptoms, it undermines the spleen qi over a long period of time.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

did many doctors write explicitly about using herbs to prevent

disease transmission via the five phases. Or is it a logical idea

that was never widely applied. If the latter is the case, why is

this so. >>>

 

 

According to Elisabeth Hsu's book of essays, herbalists did precribe

according to the 5-Phases and to the Chinese calendar;

unfortunately, not much was written down. Someone who knows Chinese

history well could probably speculate why.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

It's not really that simple. Who is to say that one particular author or series editor is the final word on a particular topic

>>>My comment is on information that is not available in English and is supposed to be totally different. I agree that it is nice to have many sources, and translations by enlarge have improved through the years (although often the older books contain all the info just not as nicely written). But here on the list we heard much about information totally absent in English. I would like to see more of this translated

Alon

[Guest guest]

Sometimes I wonder if it's even possible to come up with a random collection of herbs when writing for a particular condition that isn't based on a classical formula.

>>>Not if you follow the patient presentation. Its probably all been done before

alon

[Guest guest]

I think you are talking about bian bing (identification of disease) and not bian zheng (identification of patterns). Bian zheng gives room for creativity, but bian bing merely names the presenting problem. Both are helpful and both are important concepts in CM, but it is bian bing that allows us to individualize our treatment .

 

>>>I think the bigger picture is about the difference in traditions that had more or less empirical approach to diseases (although in CM there were usually more of a symptom) and the tradition of applying pattern identification onto disease identification. When I worked in China there were clearly old Dr that used the more fixed formulas applied to diseases. Many were said to be from family traditions. Some of these old Dr were looked down upon, although 2 were probably the most popular in our outpatient clinics.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Looking again at the SHL, we see a description of symptoms that determine an appropriate formula and the pattern then takes on the name of the formula, not the signs = a pattern which then has a commonly used formula that can be modified to the individual. >>>As i think is still done in Kampo

Alon

[Guest guest]

Marnae wrote] It's not really that simple. Who is to say that one particular author or series editor is the final word on a particular topic. >>>Marnae makes an excellent point. And this issue is a good argument for learning how to read at least some Chinese yourself.>>>>>>There is no final word and will not be in our life time. My request is on the so-called totally different and unavailable information.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Clearly, Chinese medicine also treats specific diseases. I think the issue is the modern simplification of pattern differentiation into typing differentiation/bian xing (which isn't in the Wiseman dictionary) that was developed by Western physicians such as Chen Ziyin in the 1950's (fenxing shi zhi/distinguishing types and applying treatment pg. 226 in Volker's book).<<<<I agree they are not only too simple but often divorced from clinical reality

alon

[Guest guest]

I hope (think) that Jiao is at least in part an exception. >>>I do like his discussions that have a personal views, but again many are well known.

alon

[Guest guest]

Remember that Chinese medicine is largely a rational medicine, less so empirical. It is based on application of a logical structure to clinical reality, rather than observation and experiment. While the empirical observations of clinical reality do feed the database of Chinese medicine, they do not change its underlying principles.Much of what you seem to express in this forum has to do with wanting to provide an empirical rather than rational structure to Chinese medicine. If you'd like to see a study on five phases and acupuncture, Stephen Birch has one published as an appendix to Yoshio Manaka's "Chasing the Dragon's Tail."

>>>>>Zev i have seen these. Still if one applies a more critical perspective i still find them highly speculative.

alon

[Guest guest]

And, to be honest, doing that kind of rote translation of hundreds of substances in order to glean the few pearls that emerge from those that have not been translated is a lot of work. Perhaps doing a compilation that includes primarily substances that are not in Bensky or more information about substances that are in Bensky might be an approach. >>>And may not be available here in west anyway

alon

[Guest guest]

Marnae,

 

I'm working with a Doctor named Wang Yi Ju

here in Beijing who has developed a great

deal of written material based on his

decades of clinical experience and study

of classical sources...all focused on

jing luo theory. You can contact me at

my hotmail address if you want to talk

about it in more detail: editor_caom

 

There are many, many Chinese texts that

delve into jing luo theory in great

depth and detail. I find Dr. Wang's

approach to be both lucid and highly

effective. In fact, I'm currently having

him treat me for some old martial arts

injuries that I'd long since given up

on ever resolving...and he seems to be

having a good result where numerous others

have tried with little success.

 

We're starting to work on organizing study

sessions in his clinic and plan to

produce some translations of his

written materials to use in conjuction

with resident study here in Beijing.

One idea is to congregate both Chinese

and foreign student/doctors to study

side by side with Dr. Wang and other

senior practitioners to help develop

a cohort of bi-lingual and bi-cultural

individuals to work on breaking down

the barriers that impeded the free

exchange of ideas and information.

 

Speaking of other topics that have

received short shrift in the English

langauge literature, I continue to

believe that the most basic topics

have been steadfastly avoided including:

 

yin yang theory, wu xing, wu yun liu qi,

as well as a spate of culturally embedded

issues that need to be ferreted out of

the nexus of Chinese culture and intellectual

history so that they can be illuminated for

those who need to understand them in relationship

to the study and practice of medicine.

 

And, as is pointed out in our first book

in Chapter six, which I recall you once

objected to, sexual cultivation is another

often and sadly overlooked topic. And there's

nothing sexier than sex, nor more fundamental

when it comes to venerating and nourishing

the root of life.

 

Ken

 

PS. I strongly urge you to avoid saying

that I'm absolutely correct...about anything.

 

, Marnae Ergil

<marnae@p...> wrote:

> Ken,

>

> You are absolutely correct that jing-luo theory has received short

shrift

> in the English language literature. I believe that this is

largely because

> acupuncture is not seen as being as effective or as " sexy " as

medicinal

> agents are and so many schools give very cursory introductions to

channel

> theory and then ignore it, never really talking about divergent,

luo, sinew

> etc. channels. This is really too bad because it makes for

mediocre

> acupuncturists! Are there any Chinese texts that you would

recommend for

> translation? This is something that I would be interested in but

have not

> had the time to research lately.

>

> Marnae

[Guest guest]

 

 

I don't know how to put this in any other

way, but you have little to no idea what

you're talking about when it comes to the

dynamics of what has happened in terms

of the compilation and dissemination of

TCM in the People's Republic of China

over the past several decades.

 

It is not true that Beijing is more

western than Shanghai or Chengdu. None

of these simplistic generalizations about

what is going on in China are worth the

powder to blow them away.

 

I have not read Volker's book but accept

that it is as good as the general

consensus seems to make it out to be.

However, given that he has no doubt

studied the matter in great depth and

detail, I presume that he would be

the first to agree with me when I say

that it is a vastly complex set of

issues and dynamics.

 

I get really tired of people who have

not been here and who have no grasp of

what has transpired summing up the

experience and virtually constant toil

of hundreds of thousands of individuals

in the ceaseless work of compiling,

redacting and reissuing those materials

that constitute traditional Chinese

medicine.

 

I have lived and worked in China for

more than ten years now, and all I can

say is that I do not yet really understand

what is going on, what has gone on, and

what is likely to go on in terms of the

ongoing development of the subject.

 

But I know one thing: people everywhere

who are interested should open their

eyes to the fact that it is an enormous

and richly complicated field of study

and practice.

 

I'm sorry if this seems like a rant,

but you touched a nerve...and my nerves

are pretty raw these days.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

I'm currently havinghim treat me for some old martial artsinjuries that I'd long since given upon ever resolving...and he seems to behaving a good result where numerous othershave tried with little success.>>>>>Ken I am very interested to get more info. If you be kind

thanks alon

 

[Guest guest]

I presume that he would bethe first to agree with me when I saythat it is a vastly complex set ofissues and dynamics

>>>That is clear from his book

alon

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I'm happy to give you information but

I don't think it's relevant to the CHA

list, as it mainly involves musculoskeletal

complaints I've wracked up over the years

and treatments I've gotten mainly from

tuina and acupuncture doctors in Chengdu

prior to this course of treatment I've

started with Dr. Wang here in Beijing

recently.

 

Contact me at my hotmail account with

whatever questions you'd like answered

and I'll be happy to answer.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <

yulong@m...> wrote:

>

>

> I don't know how to put this in any other

> way, but you have little to no idea what

> you're talking about when it comes to the

> dynamics of what has happened in terms

> of the compilation and dissemination of

> TCM in the People's Republic of China

> over the past several decades.

 

I am just quoting or paraphrasing my reading of Scheid's book. I think I have

made that pretty clear throughout this thread. I have done this in order to

stimulate discussion about what he wrote. I did get his words backwards in

this case, though. He writes on page 140, " the shanghai college of chinese

medicine had a pioneering role in the integration of chinese medicine and

western medicine and is still considered more modern than conservative

beijing. " My point was merely that discussion of five element dynamics

probably continued to have a heavier influence over some schools than

others depending on the orientation of the school. Heiner Fruehauf always

touted chengdu to me as very classical, more interested in things like five

phase dynamics. Again, just reporting.

 

This was not a matter of my personal opinion, but rather a reporting of what I

read (admittedly perhaps flawed). If you have some thoughts on what you

believe the actual case is, please feel free to share them. I am merely trying

to understand something I read by putting it before the group. I hope others

will not feel inhibited to write freely when seeking clarity on matters for

which

they may be poorly informed or which their are differing views. clearly history

is much more complex than any generalization I make and I will stipulate that

for all further posts.

 

[Guest guest]

Or even 1%. How many know 95 rx's by heart? Having never counted, can't

imagine what a recitation like this would be. Woo hoo!

sounds like more fun than the Simpson's.

Cara

>

> Okay, I'll call; name those formulas! Just imagine if you had to

> know 10%, or even a small portion of them, by heart for an exam.

>

> I have some Chinese collections which must have many thousands of

> formulas, so I don't doubt it. When I first buy any Chinese herbal

> (or there's nothing good on TV) I just page through them and delight

> in the variety of herbal strategies.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

Cara O. Frank, R.Ac

herbbabe

China Herb Company