Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2002 Here is an example of what I mean. According to Bensky, zhi mu is cold and bitter. I teach from notes that were compiled in the herb department at OCOM. these notes draw from several chinese sources, as well as Bensky, etc. these other sources also sometimes list sweet as a flavor. So I was teaching my students that zhi mu was bitter and sweet, because it drained heat (a function of bitter) and tonified yin (a function of sweet). A student pointed out that Bensky did not list sweet as a flavor. since we teach according to Bensky, I made a change in my lecture notes to avoid this " error " next time. Later that semester, a colleague gave me this new book from Churchill livingstone (comparisons and characteristics of chinese herbs). In the section on zhi mu, it is explained that zhi mu directs heat down due to its salty flavor. It is compared to xuan shen, another salty herb. I have never seen zhi mu described as salty before. I do not doubt the author's position, as I do not doubt Bensky's or numerous other sources consulted. My point is that we all agree that zhi mu drains fire and supplements yin fluids. different authors explain this by reference to different attributes, about which there is little agreement. So if I base decisions in clinic based upon the fact that zhi mu is salty or sweet, how solid is my rationale? However, I can never go wrong knowing that it supplements kd, st, lu yin. When there is much disagreement on a subject, we can either pay less attention to the data or just accept one or another position without evidence to resolve the matter. In subjective fields of study like aspects of materia medica, I must defer to overwhelming consensus. So just as psychologists may agree that the ego exists, but they may also dismiss Reich's orgone energy, I can accept zang fu theory for herbs, but be suspicious of flavor theory at the same time. Saying that sweet herbs tonify is not at all like saying gravity makes things fall. One is sometimes true; the other is always true (at least on earth in a macrocosmic analysis). Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always been violently opposed by mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2002 In the Zhong yao da ci dian/Great Dictionary of Chinese Medicinals, it has a primary listing of bitter and cold. Underneath, it lists other traditional sources, such as the Ben jing/Root Classic, which lists acrid, another source text has neutral instead of cold, another has sweet! So while I agree with you on the difference in flavor in different sources, we must also recognize that different sources had different uses and applications for these medicinals as well, sometimes based on the differences in flavor. So where do these differences come from? There are a number of possibilities. As I mentioned in previous postings, different medicinals are sometimes used under the same name, or the same medicinal has different qualities depending on region, climate and soil. Modern texts, such as Bensky, give, perhaps, a consensus of what has come before, or a " majority opinion " . This is fine, as long as we are aware that there were variances of description historically. This is why, in my opinion, I think we need to be very flexible in our understanding and use of herbal medicinals, and not expect them to have the same degree of specificity as pharmaceutical drugs. On Tuesday, April 23, 2002, at 11:04 AM, wrote: > Here is an example of what I mean. > > According to Bensky, zhi mu is cold and bitter. I teach from notes > that were compiled in the herb department at OCOM. these notes draw > from several chinese sources, as well as Bensky, etc. these other > sources also sometimes list sweet as a flavor. So I was teaching my > students that zhi mu was bitter and sweet, because it drained heat (a > function of bitter) and tonified yin (a function of sweet). A student > pointed out that Bensky did not list sweet as a flavor. since we teach > according to Bensky, I made a change in my lecture notes to avoid this > " error " next time. Later that semester, a colleague gave me this new > book from Churchill livingstone (comparisons and characteristics of > chinese herbs). In the section on zhi mu, it is explained that zhi mu > directs heat down due to its salty flavor. It is compared to xuan > shen, another salty herb. I have never seen zhi mu described as salty > before. I do not doubt the author's position, as I do not doubt > Bensky's or numerous other sources consulted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2002 After seeing Todd's post I took a bite of Zhi Mu. It was for sure slightly bitter. To me it tasted more bland than sweet and salty not at all. It harkened me back to my Macrobiotic days when because I was eating more salty foods and no concentrated sugars, just about everything tasted sweet to me. My point is that tastes can change. And among people there is a wide variety of taste. And herbs depending on where, how and what year they are grown can vary in taste as much or more, I imagine, as wine. Of course I was eating the raw herb. Does anyone know if the Chinese determine taste from eating the raw herb or from the tea? How about an herb tasting party? Dana Corbin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2002 , dgcor@w... wrote: My point is that tastes can change. And > among people there is a wide variety of taste. and different people have different genetic tendencies with taste. I remember as a kid a science experiment where we were given a substance to taste. some of us noticed a harsh bitter flavor. others tasted absolutely nothing. Of course I was eating the raw herb. Does > anyone know if the Chinese determine taste from eating the raw herb or > from the tea? or a live plant?? How about an herb tasting party? how about we all pick an herb and analyze it according to flavor and entering channel to see if there are any discrepancies with known functions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2002 , " " < zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > So while I agree with you on the difference in flavor in different > sources, we must also recognize that different sources had different > uses and applications for these medicinals as well, sometimes based on > the differences in flavor. but there is no argument on what zhi mu does, just how it tastes. in fact, the example I gave was intended to show how the SAME application was rationalized in different ways. It cleared heat by being virtue of being either salty OR bitter, depending on one's source. > As I mentioned in previous postings, different medicinals > are sometimes used under the same name, Is zhi mu one such herb? Bensky only lists one source, though he lists multiple sources for many other herbs. does the zhong yao ... list more sources for zhi mu? not expect them to have > the same degree of specificity as pharmaceutical drugs. that's right, we can't. but these attributes are treated by many as if they are of the same significance as the biochemical specificity of modern science. My point again is that flavor does not determine function. Sometimes this data is useful, other times not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
