treatment of cancer patients.

[Guest guest]

Alon:

 

Everyone is yang xu; while it is part of the background in these

cases, it's not a specific diagnosis or confirmation of cancer. How

does it relate specifically to cancer?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

> He does teach fingernail diagnosis (using the moons), and yang xu

is part of what he feels is a constitutional factor in cancer

patients. Again, I haven't used the fingernail method extensively to

draw conclusions, but it is quite interesting.

> >>>I took all his courses and sow about 20 patients with him at

Miriam's clinic, but again unfortunately I was unable to do any

meaningful evaluation

> Alon

[Guest guest]

Bob:

 

Have you, Felt, Deadman, or COMP considered creating a list of books

titles ideally applicable to NCCAOM certificate renewal?

Practitioners could sign in to a COMP website for a test on a

specific title or titles for their renewal CEUs. Or would that be

too much like the distance learning already in place? I'm trying to

think of a way to tie it more closely to the sale of books. " Buy a

book, get a point toward your CEUs! "

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " pemachophel2001 "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Jim,

>

> Interesting idea. However, we already do do this kind of thing,

only

> we call it a " prepublication sale. " I doubt that there would be

enough

> " rs " to make it feasible. Ten years ago, the PRC passed a

> retroactive copyright law. So someone does own the copyright to

this

> book. Our experience is that Chinese copyright owners have grossly

> inflated ideas about the worth of English language translation

rights

> of CM books. That's one of the reasons that BPP publishes

> premodern books more than 100 years old (they're not protected by

> copyright), or new works by Western authors. What I'm getting at

is

> that, 1) you'd have to buy the translation rights, 2) you'd have

to

> pay to have the translation done, the text edited and proofread,

and

> the book designed, and 3) you'd have to pay for the printing cost.

> Based on my experience marketing to this niche market, a

subscription

> deal or prepub sale might cover most of the printing and binding

> costs, but wouldn't come near to covering the prepress costs.

>

> This market is just so damned small. When you then create a book

that

> is going to appeal to an even more narrowly targeted subset, all

> ability to make a profit disappears. Already, BPP owes me tens of

> thousands of dollars in back royalties that they cannot afford to

> pay and still make books available to this market. I've heard that

> Churchill Livingstone is pulling back from this market for this

very

> reason. It's too small.

>

> In our experience, there are too many restrictions on and

liabilities

> with the CM treatment of cancer in too many states for there to be

a

> viable market for this kind of book. Let's run the numbers. You

start

> with 10,000 English-reading CM practitioners who buy English

language

> books. The other 5,000 Asian practitioners tend not to buy English

> language books. Then, if you create a really good book, maybe you

sell

> to 1 in 10 of that 10,000. (If you create a book that all the

schools

> adopt as a required textbook, ok, that's something different. Then

you

> may get 10 in 10.) Now figure that only a proportion of

practitioners

> are going to be willing or even legally able to treat cancer. So

now

> you're not working with a potential target market of 10,000. I

would

> say you're probably looking at less than half that number. Now you

> sell to 1 in 10 of that lesser number, and you're down into the

realm

> of only a couple/few hundred books.

>

> Yes, we now have POD, print on demand capibility. So we can do

short

> runs much easier than we once could. However, the cost of a book

is

> not the cost of printing and binding. It's the prepress costs,

i.e.,

> paying people by the hour for hundreds of hours of writing,

> translating, editing, proofreading, designing, and then

proofreading

> again. Now add on the costs of marketing and advertising so that

> people now the book is available. A full page color ad in AT costs

> $1,000 per month. And don't forget there have to be people who

> take the orders, do the accounting, pick, pack, and ship. It's

> prepress, marketing, and fulfillment where the real costs are.

That's

> why a book is typically priced retail at 8-10 times what the book

cost

> to physically print and bind.

>

> Then there's the other issue of, Should we make such information

> available? I've discussed that other issue in my previous posting

to

> Z'ev. If the schools offered classes in oncology and held

oncological

> rotations, we might consider it. Right now, there is no bona fide

way

> of learning CM oncology in the U.S. (at least none that I know of)

> even though a number of Enlgish language books on this subject do

> already exist. A three hour class on breast cancer at the Pacific

> Symposium is dubious ethically, at least in my mind.

>

> Bob

>

> , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> > Bob:

> >

> > Would you consider a subscription series to offset the initial

> > costs? If you get some guarenteed money up front would that help

> > make the ROI more attractive?

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > -- In , " pemachophel2001 " A few years

ago, I

> > looked into the possibility of translating the whole book using

> > Nigelspeak. However, there were, as I remember, issues about

> > copyright, and, with such a small projected readership, the ROI

> > wasn't there to make the project worthwhile.

[Guest guest]

In Sun Bing-yin's work, he claims that yang xu coldness and dampness is

the background for the development of cancer toxin in the body, based on

his observation of cancer patients.

 

By extension to yin fire theory, the spleen yang xu, buildup of cold and

damp results in loss of regulation of the clear yang and turbid yin,

leading to accumulation of damp heat, which is an excellent environment

for the development of all sorts of autoimmune disease, including cancer.

 

 

 

 

On Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 10:39 AM, jramholz wrote:

 

> Alon:

>

> Everyone is yang xu; while it is part of the background in these

> cases, it's not a specific diagnosis or confirmation of cancer. How

> does it relate specifically to cancer?

>

> Jim Ramholz

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

> wrote:

> > He does teach fingernail diagnosis (using the moons), and yang xu

> is part of what he feels is a constitutional factor in cancer

> patients. Again, I haven't used the fingernail method extensively to

> draw conclusions, but it is quite interesting.

> > >>>I took all his courses and sow about 20 patients with him at

> Miriam's clinic, but again unfortunately I was unable to do any

> meaningful evaluation

> > Alon

>

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

 

 

So, how could/should schools establish some guidelines for what new

graduates are qualified to treat? I'm assuming that this would have to

be on a school by school basis, since curricula differ somewhat school

to school. In your opinion, what would you say your school's graduates

are trained to treat when they graduate? Would you be willing to write

a list just for those of us on this list to debate and discuss?

 

What would be the fall-out, political, financial, and otherwise, of a

school publishing such a list of diseases their graduates were, in

their opinion, competent to treat? That list would be in their catalog

and maybe on their Website. It might or might not be included in

advertising and promotions.

 

I think it could be a really grown-up, very ethical, very innovative

thing to do. Besides publishing such a list, students could then be

tested prior to graduation to insure that they were, in fact,

competent as advertised and certified by diploma. This would take a

lot of the ambiguity and subjectivity out of our training. I would

also think that schools would constantly be upgrading their curriculum

in order to advertise that their graduates could treat more and more

diseases, and especially more diseases than graduates of their

competitor schools.

 

It occurs to me that this could actually be greatly to the schools'

benefit. They could then teach postgraduate courses in the areas not

covered by their undergraduate curriculum. The marketing incentive

would be immediate and overt. The need for further training would be

much more apparent and immediate than some fuzzy concept of the

doctoral degree.

 

Bob

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " pemachophel2001 " <

> pemachophel2001> wrote:

> >

> > One of the things I would like to see addressed by the schools is

a

> > statement about the scope of competence in terms of diseases of

new

> > graduates. ... it is my

> > experience that recent graduates assume they can and should

attempt to

> > treat anything and everything

>

> this is a big problem, IMO. I always advise people against doing

> obstetrics upon graduation. we have no specialized training in this

> and they will get no clinical expereince in this area.

>

> The same goes for a number of very

> > serious, very difficult to treat conditions which, in China, tend

to

> > be reserved for the " old Chinese doctors, " and I mean this term

both

> > literally and figuratively as a title of rank.

>

> as for cancer, we always get a small number of patients in the

school

> clinic who refuse modern treatment, thus we end up treating them.

One

> case that came across my desk recently was a woman who should have

had

> a lumpectomy 2 years ago. Upon the advice of a quack, she went on a

> raw food diet, refused all modern treatment and used inadequate

amounts

> of herbs prescribed by someone with no formal training in either

> herbology or cancer. now she has terminal liver metastases.

>

> >

> Because we treat primarily on the basis of pattern, perhaps there

> > is not as much disease specific information to know as in WM.

>

> whether we need to know TCM disease specific info may be debated,

but

> if you are unfamiliar with the course and prognosis of cancer from a

> modern perspective and how it can be successfully treted with

> integrative medicine, then you have no right to be treating it.

> claiming success with raw food diet has no evidence to support this,

> nor does macrobiotics. medicine needs to be evidence based, not

based

> upon appealing, romantic ideas like if we all ate as god intended in

> the garden of eden, we would have no disease. that attitude has

> sickened more people than I can count.

>

 

[Guest guest]

If you understand what Sun is saying in Chinese, then it is incorrect

to say that all or most cancer patients are clinically yang vacuous.

Remember that Sun uses the term " yang qi vacuity. " What I think is

more real is that the overwhelming majority of patients with cancer do

have a spleen qi vacuity if not a spleen and/or kidney yang vacuity.

The term yang qi is compound term. In Sun's writing, I would say it

means yang and/or qi, remembering that yang is just enough qi in one

place to feel its warmth and that there is a continuum between qi and

yang. In other words, I think Sun's term, yang qi, is not a single

thing but allows for a breadth of interpretation that covers a lot of

clinical ground.

 

Although there are pediatric cancers, I think there is some validity

in saying that, by and large, cancer is a disease of aging. According

to Yan De-xin, aging is initiated by any of an accumulating number of

externally contracted and internally engendered damages resulting in

depression in the CM technical sense of that term. Thus the qi

mechanism does not flow freely and smoothly. This sets up a basic

wood-earth disharmony which sets the stage for the disease mechanisms

of the majority of cancers according to Sun. By wood-earth disharmony,

I mean liver depression qi stagnation with spleen qi vacuity. It is

this initial spleen vacuity in middle age that then leads over time to

the kidney vacuity that most CM practitioners associate with aging in

the elderly.

 

Because of spleen vacuity, there is the engenderment of dampness. Due

to Liu Wan-su's theory of similar transformation, this transforms damp

heat. It is also possible for liver depression to transform depressive

heat. If either of these two heats brew over a long period of time,

they may transform heat toxins. When these types of heat evils are

associated with spleen vacuity, we can talk about Li Dong-yuan's yin

fire. In this case, there may be a simple spleen qi vacuity, or spleen

vacuity may have reached the kidneys, resulting in spleen (qi)-kidney

yang vacuity. Nevertheless, there are heat evils and a tendency to

dampness, phlegm, and turbidity. If there is a diagnosis of cancer,

then Su would say there are toxins present as well. Further, because

of qi stagnation, dampness, and phlegm, there is also the tendency

to the engenderment of blood stasis. In addition, qi stagnation, blood

stasis, dampness and phlegm inhibit the free flow of the qi mechanism

all the more, creating a self-perpetuating loop that continually

reinforces itself.

 

In actuality, this is not a bad theory. It helps explain why cancer in

WM is treated by chemotherapy and radiation which are both hot

therapies from the CM point of view. Most chemotherapeutic agents with

which I am aware produce hot or warm adverse reactions, damaging the

qi and consuming yin (remembering that heat not only damages yin but

" eats the qi " ).

 

Sun's theory and practice is really quite special. It has been a large

influence on my own thought and practice. He takes Li's Yuan dynasty

yin fire theory and makes it extremely understandable in terms of very

" modern " diseases.

 

Bob

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> In Sun Bing-yin's work, he claims that yang xu coldness and dampness

is

> the background for the development of cancer toxin in the body,

based on

> his observation of cancer patients.

>

> By extension to yin fire theory, the spleen yang xu, buildup of cold

and

> damp results in loss of regulation of the clear yang and turbid yin,

> leading to accumulation of damp heat, which is an excellent

environment

> for the development of all sorts of autoimmune disease, including

cancer.

>

>

>

>

> On Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 10:39 AM, jramholz wrote:

>

> > Alon:

> >

> > Everyone is yang xu; while it is part of the background in these

> > cases, it's not a specific diagnosis or confirmation of cancer.

How

> > does it relate specifically to cancer?

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

> > wrote:

> > > He does teach fingernail diagnosis (using the moons), and yang

xu

> > is part of what he feels is a constitutional factor in cancer

> > patients. Again, I haven't used the fingernail method extensively

to

> > draw conclusions, but it is quite interesting.

> > > >>>I took all his courses and sow about 20 patients with him at

> > Miriam's clinic, but again unfortunately I was unable to do any

> > meaningful evaluation

> > > Alon

> >

> >

>

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

variety

> > of professional services, including board approved online

continuing

> > education.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

One of the ways a book becomes a commercial success in this market is

by becoming one of the recommended texts for one of the NCCAOM exams.

However, in order for a book to be listed as a recommended text, an

examination question writer must base an exam question on a specific

book. Until or unless an examine writer uses a title as a source for

examination questions and answers, a book cannot show up on that list.

 

Unfortunately, this is a chicken and egg situation. Because many of

the exam writers are older practitioners who may not have kept up with

the literature, they tend to stick to the old " war horses " of our

profession, i.e., CAM, Maciocia, etc. Other exam wirters are Asian

immigrants who are also, for a different set of reasons, not well

versed in the English language literature. To make matters worse, some

authors of books on the NCCAOM list have, in the past, been NCCAOM

commissioners -- a clear conflict of interest from my point of view --

and these individuals have played what I take for a partisan game in

working to keep the exams keyed to the terminology they have used in

their books.

 

To make matters more difficult for book publishers such as Paradigm

and Blue Poppy, the schools tend to use only those textbooks on the

examination reading lists. So this creates a hard to change loop. The

schools only use certain texts because those are the texts the

examinations are created from. Then the graduates of these schools who

go on to eventually become exam question writers base their questions

on the textbooks they used in school. So the process is

self-reinforcing and not so readily evolving. As the NCCAOM people

say, their exams only test the current state of the art of the

profession. However, because the profession's education is keyed to

these exams, these exams do very much shape and drive (or hinder) the

development of the profession they seek to test.

 

This has been a problem that Bob Felt and I have been wrestling with

for years. It would be great if more people really understood some of

the dynamics of these things.

 

Bob

 

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> Bob:

>

> Have you, Felt, Deadman, or COMP considered creating a list of books

> titles ideally applicable to NCCAOM certificate renewal?

> Practitioners could sign in to a COMP website for a test on a

> specific title or titles for their renewal CEUs. Or would that be

> too much like the distance learning already in place? I'm trying to

> think of a way to tie it more closely to the sale of books. " Buy a

> book, get a point toward your CEUs! "

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

, " pemachophel2001 "

> <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> > Jim,

> >

> > Interesting idea. However, we already do do this kind of thing,

> only

> > we call it a " prepublication sale. " I doubt that there would be

> enough

> > " rs " to make it feasible. Ten years ago, the PRC passed a

> > retroactive copyright law. So someone does own the copyright to

> this

> > book. Our experience is that Chinese copyright owners have grossly

> > inflated ideas about the worth of English language translation

> rights

> > of CM books. That's one of the reasons that BPP publishes

> > premodern books more than 100 years old (they're not protected by

> > copyright), or new works by Western authors. What I'm getting at

> is

> > that, 1) you'd have to buy the translation rights, 2) you'd have

> to

> > pay to have the translation done, the text edited and proofread,

> and

> > the book designed, and 3) you'd have to pay for the printing cost.

> > Based on my experience marketing to this niche market, a

> subscription

> > deal or prepub sale might cover most of the printing and binding

> > costs, but wouldn't come near to covering the prepress costs.

> >

> > This market is just so damned small. When you then create a book

> that

> > is going to appeal to an even more narrowly targeted subset, all

> > ability to make a profit disappears. Already, BPP owes me tens of

> > thousands of dollars in back royalties that they cannot afford to

> > pay and still make books available to this market. I've heard that

> > Churchill Livingstone is pulling back from this market for this

> very

> > reason. It's too small.

> >

> > In our experience, there are too many restrictions on and

> liabilities

> > with the CM treatment of cancer in too many states for there to be

> a

> > viable market for this kind of book. Let's run the numbers. You

> start

> > with 10,000 English-reading CM practitioners who buy English

> language

> > books. The other 5,000 Asian practitioners tend not to buy English

> > language books. Then, if you create a really good book, maybe you

> sell

> > to 1 in 10 of that 10,000. (If you create a book that all the

> schools

> > adopt as a required textbook, ok, that's something different. Then

> you

> > may get 10 in 10.) Now figure that only a proportion of

> practitioners

> > are going to be willing or even legally able to treat cancer. So

> now

> > you're not working with a potential target market of 10,000. I

> would

> > say you're probably looking at less than half that number. Now you

> > sell to 1 in 10 of that lesser number, and you're down into the

> realm

> > of only a couple/few hundred books.

> >

> > Yes, we now have POD, print on demand capibility. So we can do

> short

> > runs much easier than we once could. However, the cost of a book

> is

> > not the cost of printing and binding. It's the prepress costs,

> i.e.,

> > paying people by the hour for hundreds of hours of writing,

> > translating, editing, proofreading, designing, and then

> proofreading

> > again. Now add on the costs of marketing and advertising so that

> > people now the book is available. A full page color ad in AT costs

> > $1,000 per month. And don't forget there have to be people who

> > take the orders, do the accounting, pick, pack, and ship. It's

> > prepress, marketing, and fulfillment where the real costs are.

> That's

> > why a book is typically priced retail at 8-10 times what the book

> cost

> > to physically print and bind.

> >

> > Then there's the other issue of, Should we make such information

> > available? I've discussed that other issue in my previous posting

> to

> > Z'ev. If the schools offered classes in oncology and held

> oncological

> > rotations, we might consider it. Right now, there is no bona fide

> way

> > of learning CM oncology in the U.S. (at least none that I know of)

> > even though a number of Enlgish language books on this subject do

> > already exist. A three hour class on breast cancer at the Pacific

> > Symposium is dubious ethically, at least in my mind.

> >

> > Bob

> >

> > , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> > > Bob:

> > >

> > > Would you consider a subscription series to offset the initial

> > > costs? If you get some guarenteed money up front would that help

> > > make the ROI more attractive?

> > >

> > > Jim Ramholz

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > -- In , " pemachophel2001 " A few years

> ago, I

> > > looked into the possibility of translating the whole book using

> > > Nigelspeak. However, there were, as I remember, issues about

> > > copyright, and, with such a small projected readership, the ROI

> > > wasn't there to make the project worthwhile.

[Guest guest]

Everyone is yang xu; while it is part of the background in these cases, it's not a specific diagnosis or confirmation of cancer. How does it relate specifically to cancer

>>>>I was just relating what I have seen being with the cancer specialist in Miriam's clinic. Personally when I start seeing these types of generalizations I have trouble with them.

Alon

[Guest guest]

no doubt, but given the small size of her lump upon initial dx, she was in the group who typically have ten year survival or longer.

>>>Its much more about cell type than size. Remember cancer is a systemic disease. The data is confusing especially now that they are including carcinoma in situ in their statistics. Personally I would probably have the surgery. But it is still a judgment call

Alon

[Guest guest]

It occurs to me that this could actually be greatly to the schools' benefit.

>>>Yes the schools and their subsidiaries

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

It may be coincidence, but patients who refuse

> such treatment generally seem to fare far worse than those who go

under the knife.

 

All,

 

I have been to a great degree influenced by the medical work of

Professor Cheng Man Ching and would like to include on this post a

quote from Mark Hennessy's book, " Cheng Man-ch'ing, Master of Five

Excellences " on Professor's view on cancer and the knife:

 

" In dealing with cancer I use an internist's approach. Cancer arises

from suppression so I prescribe herbs that relax the contained ch'i

and allow the energy to scatter and disperse, stopping the illness's

advance. Failing to advance, it recedes naturally. There is an old

saying, " When you view the strange as if it were normal, its

peculiarities naturally break down. " " I have cured many patients

regardless of their condition, and all that I require is trust. I do

not approve of radiation or chemotherapy " .

 

" I have seen too many treated with far too few results. Marry surgeons

even undertake exploratory surgery to analyze the condition! But metal

instruments should never touch cancer cells. For thousands of years

Chinese medicine has recorded illnesses that should not contact metal

objects and that worsen once the body is cut. These include

lymphadentitis, phlegmal lumps, internal ulcers and their accompanying

ulcers, bone ulcers, cancer, " fisheye " boils, carbuncle boils and

othersnone should contact metallic instruments. These diseases are

clearly documented and I mention them only for reference " .

 

What do you think?

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

Fernando:

 

His brief description follows general theory. When either needling

or using herbs, we need to use the different energy depths as

discussed in the Shan Han Lun. In general, we need to disperse the

energy level above the cancer and tonify the energy level below the

cancer. For example, a 71-year old woman that I'm working with now

has colon cancer that has metastasize to her liver. Chemo and

surgery did not help her.

 

In her case, the metastasis followed the Control (ke) cycle in 5-

Phases, going from yang ming (colon) to tzu yin (liver). A problem

not only because of the spreading, but because it also goes deeper.

So in needling, we need to sedate the cancer movement in the liver

at the tzu yin depth, bring it back to the colon yang ming depth,

and then bring it up and disperse it at the tai yang depth. Then

tonify her vital energy (kidney) and immune function (spleen and

lung). So we need to consider both 5-Phases and 6-Qi when needling

in order to help focus her physical and energetic resources.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

> All,

>

> I have been to a great degree influenced by the medical work of

> Professor Cheng Man Ching and would like to include on this post a

> quote from Mark Hennessy's book, " Cheng Man-ch'ing, Master of Five

> Excellences " on Professor's view on cancer and the knife:

>

> " In dealing with cancer I use an internist's approach. Cancer

arises

> from suppression so I prescribe herbs that relax the contained

ch'i

> and allow the energy to scatter and disperse, stopping the

illness's

> advance. Failing to advance, it recedes naturally. There is an old

> saying, " When you view the strange as if it were normal, its

> peculiarities naturally break down. " " I have cured many patients

> regardless of their condition, and all that I require is trust. I

do

> not approve of radiation or chemotherapy " .

>

> " I have seen too many treated with far too few results. Marry

surgeons

> even undertake exploratory surgery to analyze the condition! But

metal

> instruments should never touch cancer cells. For thousands of

years

> Chinese medicine has recorded illnesses that should not contact

metal

> objects and that worsen once the body is cut. These include

> lymphadentitis, phlegmal lumps, internal ulcers and their

accompanying

> ulcers, bone ulcers, cancer, " fisheye " boils, carbuncle boils and

> othersnone should contact metallic instruments. These diseases are

> clearly documented and I mention them only for reference " .

>

> What do you think?

>

> Fernando

[Guest guest]

, " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

 

>

> What do you think?

 

more words. no evidence. doesn't match the modern research or my

personal experience.

 

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

Can you briefly summarize the modern research?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

>

> >

> > What do you think?

>

> more words. no evidence. doesn't match the modern research or my

> personal experience.

>

 

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

My father died of metastatic colon cancer that went to his liver and

I've had my first colonoscopy. Your discussion scares the bee-jeezus

out of me. It's not just what you're saying but the naivete that seems

to inform your tone. Your patient is probably as good as dead in terms

of prognosis and you are airely talking about five phase acupuncture.

For me, this underscores the importance of the issue of scope of

practice.

 

Bob

 

 

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> Fernando:

>

> His brief description follows general theory. When either needling

> or using herbs, we need to use the different energy depths as

> discussed in the Shan Han Lun. In general, we need to disperse the

> energy level above the cancer and tonify the energy level below the

> cancer. For example, a 71-year old woman that I'm working with now

> has colon cancer that has metastasize to her liver. Chemo and

> surgery did not help her.

>

> In her case, the metastasis followed the Control (ke) cycle in 5-

> Phases, going from yang ming (colon) to tzu yin (liver). A problem

> not only because of the spreading, but because it also goes deeper.

> So in needling, we need to sedate the cancer movement in the liver

> at the tzu yin depth, bring it back to the colon yang ming depth,

> and then bring it up and disperse it at the tai yang depth. Then

> tonify her vital energy (kidney) and immune function (spleen and

> lung). So we need to consider both 5-Phases and 6-Qi when needling

> in order to help focus her physical and energetic resources.

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

> , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

> > All,

> >

> > I have been to a great degree influenced by the medical work of

> > Professor Cheng Man Ching and would like to include on this post a

> > quote from Mark Hennessy's book, " Cheng Man-ch'ing, Master of Five

> > Excellences " on Professor's view on cancer and the knife:

> >

> > " In dealing with cancer I use an internist's approach. Cancer

> arises

> > from suppression so I prescribe herbs that relax the contained

> ch'i

> > and allow the energy to scatter and disperse, stopping the

> illness's

> > advance. Failing to advance, it recedes naturally. There is an old

> > saying, " When you view the strange as if it were normal, its

> > peculiarities naturally break down. " " I have cured many patients

> > regardless of their condition, and all that I require is trust. I

> do

> > not approve of radiation or chemotherapy " .

> >

> > " I have seen too many treated with far too few results. Marry

> surgeons

> > even undertake exploratory surgery to analyze the condition! But

> metal

> > instruments should never touch cancer cells. For thousands of

> years

> > Chinese medicine has recorded illnesses that should not contact

> metal

> > objects and that worsen once the body is cut. These include

> > lymphadentitis, phlegmal lumps, internal ulcers and their

> accompanying

> > ulcers, bone ulcers, cancer, " fisheye " boils, carbuncle boils and

> > othersnone should contact metallic instruments. These diseases are

> > clearly documented and I mention them only for reference " .

> >

> > What do you think?

> >

> > Fernando

[Guest guest]

more words. no evidence.

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

> more words. no evidence.

 

Point well taken. However, do you have any evidence to the contrary?

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

Bob:

 

I can appreciate your fear considering your family and personal

circumstances; but I take exception to your condescension about " my

tone " simply because I don't work the way you do and you don't seem

to understand this train of thought. Although she feels she has

exhausted all avenues, her MD is still her primary physician---and I

always work to support the primary physician. I would have expected

that you had a more generous spirit even toward impossible cases. I

have no illusion about her prognosis; the goal is to support her and

make her more comfortable until that time.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

, " pemachophel2001 "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Jim,

>

> My father died of metastatic colon cancer that went to his liver

and

> I've had my first colonoscopy. Your discussion scares the bee-

jeezus

> out of me. It's not just what you're saying but the naivete that

seems

> to inform your tone. Your patient is probably as good as dead in

terms

> of prognosis and you are airely talking about five phase

acupuncture.

> For me, this underscores the importance of the issue of scope of

> practice.

>

> Bob

>

>

> , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> > Fernando:

> >

> > His brief description follows general theory. When either

needling

> > or using herbs, we need to use the different energy depths as

> > discussed in the Shan Han Lun. In general, we need to disperse

the

> > energy level above the cancer and tonify the energy level below

the

> > cancer. For example, a 71-year old woman that I'm working with

now

> > has colon cancer that has metastasize to her liver. Chemo and

> > surgery did not help her.

> >

> > In her case, the metastasis followed the Control (ke) cycle in 5-

> > Phases, going from yang ming (colon) to tzu yin (liver). A

problem

> > not only because of the spreading, but because it also goes

deeper.

> > So in needling, we need to sedate the cancer movement in the

liver

> > at the tzu yin depth, bring it back to the colon yang ming

depth,

> > and then bring it up and disperse it at the tai yang depth. Then

> > tonify her vital energy (kidney) and immune function (spleen and

> > lung). So we need to consider both 5-Phases and 6-Qi when

needling

> > in order to help focus her physical and energetic resources.

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

> > > All,

> > >

> > > I have been to a great degree influenced by the medical work

of

> > > Professor Cheng Man Ching and would like to include on this

post a

> > > quote from Mark Hennessy's book, " Cheng Man-ch'ing, Master of

Five

> > > Excellences " on Professor's view on cancer and the knife:

> > >

> > > " In dealing with cancer I use an internist's approach. Cancer

> > arises

> > > from suppression so I prescribe herbs that relax the contained

> > ch'i

> > > and allow the energy to scatter and disperse, stopping the

> > illness's

> > > advance. Failing to advance, it recedes naturally. There is an

old

> > > saying, " When you view the strange as if it were normal, its

> > > peculiarities naturally break down. " " I have cured many

patients

> > > regardless of their condition, and all that I require is

trust. I

> > do

> > > not approve of radiation or chemotherapy " .

> > >

> > > " I have seen too many treated with far too few results. Marry

> > surgeons

> > > even undertake exploratory surgery to analyze the condition!

But

> > metal

> > > instruments should never touch cancer cells. For thousands of

> > years

> > > Chinese medicine has recorded illnesses that should not

contact

> > metal

> > > objects and that worsen once the body is cut. These include

> > > lymphadentitis, phlegmal lumps, internal ulcers and their

> > accompanying

> > > ulcers, bone ulcers, cancer, " fisheye " boils, carbuncle boils

and

> > > othersnone should contact metallic instruments. These diseases

are

> > > clearly documented and I mention them only for reference " .

> > >

> > > What do you think?

> > >

> > > Fernando

[Guest guest]

Fernando, Alon, all,

Cancer is a vastly complex subject, and there are many different

points of view on its treatment and care. However, the dominant

surgery/chemo/radiation approach of biomedicine, enforced by law,

insurance media and medical pressure, doesn't really allow for a fair

debate or discussion on the topic of what is appropriate treatment and

when. While I am impressed with biomedicine's ability to prolong or

save life in cancer patients, I am not impressed with quality of life

issues or its ability to cure the disease. Trillions of dollars down

the tunnel, no cures in sight.

 

I have tremendous respect for Chen Man-qing, and would listen to what he

has to say very carefully. He was a great man, and for me, his opinions

carry great weight. However, to put his ideas into practice, so that

they are more than just his opinions, is a much larger endeavor that is

not possible in the present environment. Our first task is to study,

translate, and develop the specialty of cancer in Chinese medicine, for

now in the preventative and supportive aspects, later in primary

treatment.

 

Having said that, I do support biomedical developments and research in

such areas as monoclonal antibodies and cancer vaccines, and approaches

that enhance immunity.

 

I have read or listened to authorities in Chinese, Tibetan and

Homeopathic medicine, as well as biomedical sources on the topic of

cancer. Tibetan physicians such as Yeshe Dhonden and homeopathic

physicians such as Grimmer and Hering agree that surgery can sometimes

spread cancer (I also came across this in a section of Ibn Sina's Canon

of Medicine). But this depends on the stage, the patient, and many

factors that have to be considered by a practitioner with great

experience. The case Todd described, a very early one apparently with a

localized tumor, in my opinion would benefit from a lumpectomy. Whether

this ultimately would have saved her life, I couldn't say.

 

We all need to do the best we can to help in this epidemic, but we

also need to know our limitations. So let's roll up our sleeves and get

to work with the tools we have.

 

 

 

 

On Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 07:49 AM, fbernall wrote:

 

> , " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

>   It may be coincidence, but patients who refuse

> > such treatment generally seem to fare far worse than those who go

> under the knife.

>

> All,

>

> I have been to a great degree influenced by the medical work of

> Professor Cheng Man Ching and would like to include on this post a

> quote from Mark Hennessy's book, " Cheng Man-ch'ing, Master of Five

> Excellences " on Professor's view on cancer and the knife:

>

> " In dealing with cancer I use an internist's approach. Cancer arises

> from suppression so I prescribe herbs that relax the contained ch'i

> and allow the energy to scatter and disperse, stopping the illness's

> advance. Failing to advance, it recedes naturally. There is an old

> saying, " When you view the strange as if it were normal, its

> peculiarities naturally break down. " " I have cured many patients

> regardless of their condition, and all that I require is trust. I do

> not approve of radiation or chemotherapy " .

>

> " I have seen too many treated with far too few results. Marry surgeons

> even undertake exploratory surgery to analyze the condition! But metal

> instruments should never touch cancer cells. For thousands of years

> Chinese medicine has recorded illnesses that should not contact metal

> objects and that worsen once the body is cut. These include

> lymphadentitis, phlegmal lumps, internal ulcers and their accompanying

> ulcers, bone ulcers, cancer, " fisheye " boils, carbuncle boils and

> othersnone should contact metallic instruments. These diseases are

> clearly documented and I mention them only for reference " .

>

> What do you think?

>

> Fernando

>

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Words have value, Alon. The evidence? Test the ideas (when possible,

of course).

 

 

On Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 11:01 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote:

 

> more words.  no evidence.

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Zev, as long as we clearly understand that they are only words. Agreed.

Alon

[Guest guest]

I have tremendous respect for Chen Man-qing, and would listen to what he has to say very carefully. He was a great man, and for me, his opinions carry great weight. However, to put his ideas into practice, so that they are more than just his opinions, is a much larger endeavor that is not possible in the present environment. Our first task is to study, translate, and develop the specialty of cancer in Chinese medicine, for now in the preventative and supportive aspects, later in primary treatment

>>>If I had a skin lesion I would cut it ASAP regardless of any of the oboe positions.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

I have no trouble using the ke cycle to describe the progression of

colon to liver cancer. What I question is the seemingly off-hand way

you discuss this situation. The bottom-line implication of your

posting is that others reading it may want to consider trying this

approach to the treatment of this condition. If not, why post it?

 

I, for one, would like to see more meta-discourse on all the other

factors involved in this patient's care. For instance, are you saying

you are remedially treating the cancer with this acupuncture approach?

If so, with what expected outcome based on what treatment regimen over

what period of time? If you are not remedially treating the cancer,

then what is the intention of the acupuncture and, again, with what

expectations as a result of what regime. Further, how many such

patients have you treated with this approach and with what outcomes,

both short and long-term? Are you using or suggesting any other,

adjunctive therapies? If so, what are they and why are you suggesting

them? You have asked numerous other people on this list to be more

forthcoming with their information. Therefore, I am requesting the

same from you in this particular case given the gravity of the topic

of discussion.

 

We're talking about a pretty serious situation here, and I don't feel

that you've presented your treatment protocol in a very professional

manner. I know it is something of a cliche and a canard on this list

to criticize each other for unprofessionalism, but, as I mentioned in

a response to another posting, who knows who may be reading this

discussion? I'd like members of other health care professions

stumbling across this list to think that we act in a mature,

professional manner, and, in this medium, the only way to convey that

impression is to communicate in that way.

 

Again, let me be clear: I am not criticizing your treatment protocol.

I am criticizing the way you have presented it to this group and to

nayone else who might be " lurking. "

 

Bob

 

P.S. As a fellow Coloradan, I assume you are aware that we do have a

Cancer Care Control Act here in Colorado. I was prosecuted under this

Act 10 or more years ago. Contravention of the act is like a red flag

to a bull in terms of the CMA (Colorado Medical Association). Most of

the prosecutions in this state that I know of for practicing medicine

without a license have been prompted by the practitioner being popped

for treating someone with cancer. The way you presented your protocol

might be used as evidence against you in a court of law.

 

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> Bob:

>

> I can appreciate your fear considering your family and personal

> circumstances; but I take exception to your condescension about " my

> tone " simply because I don't work the way you do and you don't seem

> to understand this train of thought. Although she feels she has

> exhausted all avenues, her MD is still her primary physician---and I

> always work to support the primary physician. I would have expected

> that you had a more generous spirit even toward impossible cases. I

> have no illusion about her prognosis; the goal is to support her and

> make her more comfortable until that time.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

>

> , " pemachophel2001 "

> <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> > Jim,

> >

> > My father died of metastatic colon cancer that went to his liver

> and

> > I've had my first colonoscopy. Your discussion scares the bee-

> jeezus

> > out of me. It's not just what you're saying but the naivete that

> seems

> > to inform your tone. Your patient is probably as good as dead in

> terms

> > of prognosis and you are airely talking about five phase

> acupuncture.

> > For me, this underscores the importance of the issue of scope of

> > practice.

> >

> > Bob

> >

> >

> > , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> > > Fernando:

> > >

> > > His brief description follows general theory. When either

> needling

> > > or using herbs, we need to use the different energy depths as

> > > discussed in the Shan Han Lun. In general, we need to disperse

> the

> > > energy level above the cancer and tonify the energy level below

> the

> > > cancer. For example, a 71-year old woman that I'm working with

> now

> > > has colon cancer that has metastasize to her liver. Chemo and

> > > surgery did not help her.

> > >

> > > In her case, the metastasis followed the Control (ke) cycle in

5-

> > > Phases, going from yang ming (colon) to tzu yin (liver). A

> problem

> > > not only because of the spreading, but because it also goes

> deeper.

> > > So in needling, we need to sedate the cancer movement in the

> liver

> > > at the tzu yin depth, bring it back to the colon yang ming

> depth,

> > > and then bring it up and disperse it at the tai yang depth. Then

> > > tonify her vital energy (kidney) and immune function (spleen and

> > > lung). So we need to consider both 5-Phases and 6-Qi when

> needling

> > > in order to help focus her physical and energetic resources.

> > >

> > > Jim Ramholz

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...>

wrote:

> > > > All,

> > > >

> > > > I have been to a great degree influenced by the medical work

> of

> > > > Professor Cheng Man Ching and would like to include on this

> post a

> > > > quote from Mark Hennessy's book, " Cheng Man-ch'ing, Master of

> Five

> > > > Excellences " on Professor's view on cancer and the knife:

> > > >

> > > > " In dealing with cancer I use an internist's approach. Cancer

> > > arises

> > > > from suppression so I prescribe herbs that relax the contained

> > > ch'i

> > > > and allow the energy to scatter and disperse, stopping the

> > > illness's

> > > > advance. Failing to advance, it recedes naturally. There is an

> old

> > > > saying, " When you view the strange as if it were normal, its

> > > > peculiarities naturally break down. " " I have cured many

> patients

> > > > regardless of their condition, and all that I require is

> trust. I

> > > do

> > > > not approve of radiation or chemotherapy " .

> > > >

> > > > " I have seen too many treated with far too few results. Marry

> > > surgeons

> > > > even undertake exploratory surgery to analyze the condition!

> But

> > > metal

> > > > instruments should never touch cancer cells. For thousands of

> > > years

> > > > Chinese medicine has recorded illnesses that should not

> contact

> > > metal

> > > > objects and that worsen once the body is cut. These include

> > > > lymphadentitis, phlegmal lumps, internal ulcers and their

> > > accompanying

> > > > ulcers, bone ulcers, cancer, " fisheye " boils, carbuncle boils

> and

> > > > othersnone should contact metallic instruments. These diseases

> are

> > > > clearly documented and I mention them only for reference " .

> > > >

> > > > What do you think?

> > > >

> > > > Fernando

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

 

What I think Todd was getting at was that Prof. Cheng's method of

writing supplied no evidence for his position, at least not the kind

of evidence modern professional health care providers typically

require. He gave no case histories of real-life patients nor did he

report any evidence based on retrospective clinical audits or

prospective clinical trials. While Prof. Cheng's style of writing (at

least when it comes to making clinical assertions) may have been

acceptable among Chinese medical practitioners of an earlier

generation, they are no longer deemed professionally adequate. Again,

I don't think Tood or I are talking about Prof. Cheng's theory and

praxis but rather his manner of discourse.

 

Bob

 

, " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

> , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...>

> wrote:

> > more words. no evidence.

>

> Point well taken. However, do you have any evidence to the contrary?

>

> Fernando

[Guest guest]

Oboe positions?

 

Z'ev

On Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 12:47 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote:

 

> I have tremendous respect for Chen Man-qing, and would listen to what

> he has to say very carefully. He was a great man, and for me, his

> opinions carry great weight. However, to put his ideas into practice,

> so that they are more than just his opinions, is a much larger endeavor

> that is not possible in the present environment. Our first task is to

> study, translate, and develop the specialty of cancer in Chinese

> medicine, for now in the preventative and supportive aspects, later in

> primary treatment

> >>>If I had a skin lesion I would cut it ASAP regardless of any of the

> oboe positions.

> Alon

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oboe positions?>>>>Sorry Above

Alon