treatment of cancer patients.

[Guest guest]

With Todd's permission, I'd like to expand this discussion to how we

treat cancer patients in the West with Chinese medicine, since these

posts indicate a strong interest and opinions on this subject.

 

First, I'd like to respond to Bob and Alon.

 

I have Sun Bing-yin's translated text on cancer treatment, and I am

quite aware of his formulas and approach. Sadly, I have been unable to

use his prescriptions or approach, because 1) there is no one to train

me directly 2) there are legal issues in primary cancer treatment by TCM.

 

My most difficult patients, or those that want primary, alternative

treatment options, I refer to experts in that area in TCM, or to

residency programs. Most of these patients require a lot more than what

a single practitioner like myself can give. They need comprehensive

support programs. One of my hopes is that such programs will be

developed here.

 

There are a number of ways that we can help cancer patients, however,

using the approach (to quote another popular text) fu zheng jie du. or

'support the correct, resolve toxin'.

 

Because cancer affects patients at all levels of their existence, there

are many levels of support and treatment for them.

 

Since most of our patients are using or have used biomedical treatment

options, including chemotherapy, radiation, monoclonal antibodies,

and/or surgery, there are various levels of support (fu zheng) that can

be given. Many of these have been pointed out in the Chinese medical

literature, and are, in my opinion, in our grasp. These supportive

therapies include herbal medicine, acumoxatherapy, exercise, diet,

meditation and life-style changes.

 

This is, I think, the area where most of us are treating cancer patients.

 

The primary treatment of cancer as a disease is a much more difficult

and complex issue, and requires more 'extreme' treatment strategies.

 

What I see in Dr. Sun's treatment strategies, Bob, is a basis in the

work of Li Dong-yuan and the primacy of the spleen and stomach (in those

strategies). As he states in his book, supplementing medicinals can

fight cancer, and many patients have spleen and kidney vacuities. So

his prescriptions combine toxic medicinals to fight cancer toxin (du yao

gong xie) , they have generally large doses of spleen and kidney

supplementing medicinals as well.

 

But, unlike much alternative cancer care in the West, there is a

coherent treatment strategy at work.

 

One of the most difficult aspects of being a private practitioner is

that many new patients bring bags of supplements, herbs and drugs that

they have been prescribed by other practitioners. It is often difficult

to add to the already overburdened body (and pocket book). It goes

without saying that these medicines will often clash and create

additional problems. It is a touchy issue.

 

While I perhaps overstated my case (as I tend to do at times), Alon and

Bob, you must admit that in normative practice, the method of producing

side effects is for more extreme circumstances. And, that the

physicians, even if they use many medicinals in different forms, are

still looking at the overall picture (or as Jim said, perhaps as one

very large prescription).

 

Perhaps it is time for us to examine the writings of the 'purgation

school' to see how their strategies were designed.

 

 

 

On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 08:08 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

>

> This current discussion highlights the fact that, in CM, oncology

> (zhong liu ke) is a very specialized department. In my own limited

> experience (my main CM herb teacher, Dr. Yu Min, was a zhong liu ke

> specialist), it is considered ok and even necessary by some CM cancer

> specialists to produce side effects when treating cancer with Chinese

> meds. In that case, other formulas may be given to mitigate those side

> effects. One of the problems with treating cancer with CM is how to

> get enough meds into the body to be strong enough to fight the evil qi

> (according to Sun Bing-yin, a famous CM oncology expert, there is

> always evil qi in cancer). Therefore, it is not uncommon to prescribe

> three, four, or more formulas in various forms (perhaps one decoction

> and then one or more pills, powders, or injectionas) in order to get

> in enough medication. When Sun Bing-yin briefly practiced in Palo Alto

> a number of years ago before the INS shipped him back to the PRC, he

> commonly prescribed one decoction and three or four pills per day.

> When the FDa confiscated these pills, he was effectively hamstrung.

>

> Somewhat along the same lines, when I used to go to the pharmacy at

> the Long Hua and Yue Yang hospitals in Shanghai, the bao or packets

> for the cancer patients were always huge. They were markedly

> larger than the boa for the treatment of other, benign conditions.

> When I asked about this, I was told they were huge because of 1) the

> larger than normal doses per ingredient, and 2) the larger than normal

> number of ingredients. Presumably, some of those ingredients were in

> those formulas to harmonize other ingredients. Certainly that is the

> case in many of Sun Bing-yin's published formulas.

>

> These are just some of the reasons I am very trepidatious about the CM

> treatment of cancer by those not specifically trained in this very

> special specialty.

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> With Todd's permission, I'd like to expand this discussion to how we

> treat cancer patients in the West with Chinese medicine,

 

my permissionis not necessary,but hereby granted.

 

there are legal issues in primary cancer treatment by TCM.

 

are there? this is what I have heard, but I can't find anything in the

CA acupuncture law about it.

 

[Guest guest]

My understanding is that it is a felony for any practitioner in

California other than an M.D. to treat cancer. So this is in the

general medical law code. I also know of one herbalist in Orange

County was raided for prescribing herbs to treat cancer.

 

This is different that treating cancer patients to improve their

immunity and help them fight the disease (fu zheng). Also, I think with

the rapidly expanding population of cancer patients, and the inability

of biomedicine to effectively solve this problem, there is much more

openness to alternative methods of cancer treatment. However, we must

still tread cautiously in this regard, both in expertise and legally.

 

 

On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 11:54 AM, 1 wrote:

 

> , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> > With Todd's permission, I'd like to expand this discussion to how we

> > treat cancer patients in the West with Chinese medicine,

>

> my permissionis not necessary,but hereby granted. 

>

> there are legal issues in primary cancer treatment by TCM.

>

> are there?  this is what I have heard, but I can't find anything in the

> CA acupuncture law about it.

>

 

>

>

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

I completely agree that the deliberate causation of side effects is

mostly reserved in CM to the treatment of serious, potentially

life-threatening conditions, such as cancer. I was only commenting

that there are precedents in contemporary CM practice of giving one

formula to treatment the side effects of another formula.

 

In terms of cancer and Li-Zhu medicine, Sun specifically says that

cancer is a species of yin fire condition. That's one of the reasons

why I like Sun's work. It's too bad Sun's work was A) translated so

poorly and B) incompletely. A few years ago, I looked into the

possibility of translating the whole book using Nigelspeak. However,

there were, as I remember, issues about copyright, and, with such a

small projected readership, the ROI wasn't there to make the project

worthwhile.

 

Bob

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> With Todd's permission, I'd like to expand this discussion to how we

> treat cancer patients in the West with Chinese medicine, since these

> posts indicate a strong interest and opinions on this subject.

>

> First, I'd like to respond to Bob and Alon.

>

> I have Sun Bing-yin's translated text on cancer treatment, and I am

> quite aware of his formulas and approach. Sadly, I have been unable

to

> use his prescriptions or approach, because 1) there is no one to

train

> me directly 2) there are legal issues in primary cancer treatment by

TCM.

>

> My most difficult patients, or those that want primary, alternative

> treatment options, I refer to experts in that area in TCM, or to

> residency programs. Most of these patients require a lot more than

what

> a single practitioner like myself can give. They need comprehensive

> support programs. One of my hopes is that such programs will be

> developed here.

>

> There are a number of ways that we can help cancer patients,

however,

> using the approach (to quote another popular text) fu zheng jie du.

or

> 'support the correct, resolve toxin'.

>

> Because cancer affects patients at all levels of their existence,

there

> are many levels of support and treatment for them.

>

> Since most of our patients are using or have used biomedical

treatment

> options, including chemotherapy, radiation, monoclonal antibodies,

> and/or surgery, there are various levels of support (fu zheng) that

can

> be given. Many of these have been pointed out in the Chinese

medical

> literature, and are, in my opinion, in our grasp. These supportive

> therapies include herbal medicine, acumoxatherapy, exercise, diet,

> meditation and life-style changes.

>

> This is, I think, the area where most of us are treating cancer

patients.

>

> The primary treatment of cancer as a disease is a much more

difficult

> and complex issue, and requires more 'extreme' treatment strategies.

>

> What I see in Dr. Sun's treatment strategies, Bob, is a basis in the

> work of Li Dong-yuan and the primacy of the spleen and stomach (in

those

> strategies). As he states in his book, supplementing medicinals can

> fight cancer, and many patients have spleen and kidney vacuities.

So

> his prescriptions combine toxic medicinals to fight cancer toxin (du

yao

> gong xie) , they have generally large doses of spleen and kidney

> supplementing medicinals as well.

>

> But, unlike much alternative cancer care in the West, there is a

> coherent treatment strategy at work.

>

> One of the most difficult aspects of being a private practitioner is

> that many new patients bring bags of supplements, herbs and drugs

that

> they have been prescribed by other practitioners. It is often

difficult

> to add to the already overburdened body (and pocket book). It goes

> without saying that these medicines will often clash and create

> additional problems. It is a touchy issue.

>

> While I perhaps overstated my case (as I tend to do at times), Alon

and

> Bob, you must admit that in normative practice, the method of

producing

> side effects is for more extreme circumstances. And, that the

> physicians, even if they use many medicinals in different forms, are

> still looking at the overall picture (or as Jim said, perhaps as one

> very large prescription).

>

> Perhaps it is time for us to examine the writings of the 'purgation

> school' to see how their strategies were designed.

>

>

>

> On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 08:08 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> > Z'ev,

> >

> > This current discussion highlights the fact that, in CM, oncology

> > (zhong liu ke) is a very specialized department. In my own limited

> > experience (my main CM herb teacher, Dr. Yu Min, was a zhong liu

ke

> > specialist), it is considered ok and even necessary by some CM

cancer

> > specialists to produce side effects when treating cancer with

Chinese

> > meds. In that case, other formulas may be given to mitigate those

side

> > effects. One of the problems with treating cancer with CM is how

to

> > get enough meds into the body to be strong enough to fight the

evil qi

> > (according to Sun Bing-yin, a famous CM oncology expert, there is

> > always evil qi in cancer). Therefore, it is not uncommon to

prescribe

> > three, four, or more formulas in various forms (perhaps one

decoction

> > and then one or more pills, powders, or injectionas) in order to

get

> > in enough medication. When Sun Bing-yin briefly practiced in Palo

Alto

> > a number of years ago before the INS shipped him back to the PRC,

he

> > commonly prescribed one decoction and three or four pills per day.

> > When the FDa confiscated these pills, he was effectively

hamstrung.

> >

> > Somewhat along the same lines, when I used to go to the pharmacy

at

> > the Long Hua and Yue Yang hospitals in Shanghai, the bao or

packets

> > for the cancer patients were always huge. They were markedly

> > larger than the boa for the treatment of other, benign conditions.

> > When I asked about this, I was told they were huge because of 1)

the

> > larger than normal doses per ingredient, and 2) the larger than

normal

> > number of ingredients. Presumably, some of those ingredients were

in

> > those formulas to harmonize other ingredients. Certainly that is

the

> > case in many of Sun Bing-yin's published formulas.

> >

> > These are just some of the reasons I am very trepidatious about

the CM

> > treatment of cancer by those not specifically trained in this very

> > special specialty.

[Guest guest]

 

 

I don't know about CA, but here in Colorado, we have a " Cancer Care

Control Act " which prohibits the remedial treatment of a diagnosed

cancer by anyone other than a licensed physician. If one looks in the

Colorado acupuncture statute, it doesn't say anything about this in

our scope of practice. The Cancer Care Control Act is a separate

statute that most people would not know exists if they hadn't been

living here when the law was passed and heard about it on tv. Maybe

there's a similar law in CA. You might try getting in touch with the

State Attorney General's office. They're the ones who are usually

supposed to tell people what laws currently exist.

 

Bob

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> > With Todd's permission, I'd like to expand this discussion to how

we

> > treat cancer patients in the West with Chinese medicine,

>

> my permissionis not necessary,but hereby granted.

>

> there are legal issues in primary cancer treatment by TCM.

>

> are there? this is what I have heard, but I can't find anything in

the

> CA acupuncture law about it.

>

 

[Guest guest]

, " pemachophel2001 " <

pemachophel2001> wrote:

If one looks in the

> Colorado acupuncture statute, it doesn't say anything about this in

> our scope of practice. The Cancer Care Control Act is a separate

> statute

 

I bet that is what we have given CA's long history of alternative

medicine.

 

[Guest guest]

I have Sun Bing-yin's translated text on cancer treatment, and I am quite aware of his formulas and approach. Sadly, I have been unable to use his prescriptions or approach, because 1) there is no one to train me directly 2) there are legal issues in primary cancer treatment by TCM.>>>>>If we are thinking of the same person do you use his ideas of finger nails and yang def. I took his classes and was able to watch him work a little. Unfortunately not enough to make any conclusions.

Alon

[Guest guest]

My understanding is that it is a felony for any practitioner in California other than an M.D. to treat cancer. So this is in the general medical law code. I also know of one herbalist in Orange County was raided for prescribing herbs to treat cancer.

>>>>Miriam was also sued after having diagnosed a cancer in a child that the MD missed, when she told the mother to have surgery but no chemo. The MD sued Miriam and the state and MD the mother which almost lost her kid

Alon

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

It is too bad you couldn't put out a version of Dr. Sun's book. . . .you

are right, the translation job is poor on what appears to be an

excellent work. I'd be interested in getting a Chinese copy.

 

Hasn't the English version of his book been out of print for several

years now? I originally got mine, on your recommendation, from Dr.

Miriam Lee directly. I've never seen it offered anywhere else.

 

 

On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 12:33 PM, pemachophel2001 wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

>

> I completely agree that the deliberate causation of side effects is

> mostly reserved in CM to the treatment of serious, potentially

> life-threatening conditions, such as cancer. I was only commenting

> that there are precedents in contemporary CM practice of giving one

> formula to treatment the side effects of another formula.

>

> In terms of cancer and Li-Zhu medicine, Sun specifically says that

> cancer is a species of yin fire condition. That's one of the reasons

> why I like Sun's work. It's too bad Sun's work was A) translated so

> poorly and B) incompletely. A few years ago, I looked into the

> possibility of translating the whole book using Nigelspeak. However,

> there were, as I remember, issues about copyright, and, with such a

> small projected readership, the ROI wasn't there to make the project

> worthwhile.

>

> Bob

>

> , " " <zrosenbe@s...>

> wrote:

> > With Todd's permission, I'd like to expand this discussion to how we

> > treat cancer patients in the West with Chinese medicine, since these

> > posts indicate a strong interest and opinions on this subject.

> >

> > First, I'd like to respond to Bob and Alon.

> >

> > I have Sun Bing-yin's translated text on cancer treatment, and I am

> > quite aware of his formulas and approach.  Sadly, I have been unable

> to

> > use his prescriptions or approach, because 1) there is no one to

> train

> > me directly 2) there are legal issues in primary cancer treatment by

> TCM.

> >

> > My most difficult patients, or those that want primary, alternative

> > treatment options, I refer to experts in that area in TCM, or to

> > residency programs.  Most of these patients require a lot more than

> what

> > a single practitioner like myself can give.  They need comprehensive

> > support programs.  One of my hopes is that such programs will be

> > developed here.

> >

> > There are a number of ways that we can help cancer patients,

> however,

> > using the approach (to quote another popular text) fu zheng jie du.

> or

> > 'support the correct, resolve toxin'.

> >

> > Because cancer affects patients at all levels of their existence,

> there

> > are many levels of support and treatment for them.

> >

> > Since most of our patients are using or have used biomedical

> treatment

> > options, including chemotherapy, radiation, monoclonal antibodies,

> > and/or surgery, there are various levels of support (fu zheng) that

> can

> > be given.  Many of these have been pointed out in the Chinese

> medical

> > literature, and are, in my opinion, in our grasp.  These supportive

> > therapies include herbal medicine, acumoxatherapy, exercise, diet,

> > meditation and life-style changes.

> >

> > This is, I think, the area where most of us are treating cancer

> patients.

> >

> > The primary treatment of cancer as a disease is a much more

> difficult

> > and complex issue, and requires more 'extreme' treatment strategies.

> >

> > What I see in Dr. Sun's treatment strategies, Bob, is a basis in the

> > work of Li Dong-yuan and the primacy of the spleen and stomach (in

> those

> > strategies).  As he states in his book, supplementing medicinals can

> > fight cancer, and many patients have spleen and kidney vacuities. 

> So

> > his prescriptions combine toxic medicinals to fight cancer toxin (du

> yao

> > gong xie) , they have generally large doses of spleen and kidney

> > supplementing medicinals as well.

> >

> > But, unlike much alternative cancer care in the West, there is a

> > coherent treatment strategy at work.

> >

> > One of the most difficult aspects of being a private practitioner is

> > that many new patients bring bags of supplements, herbs and drugs

> that

> > they have been prescribed by other practitioners.  It is often

> difficult

> > to add to the already overburdened body (and pocket book).  It goes

> > without saying that these medicines will often clash and create

> > additional problems.  It is a touchy issue.

> >

> > While I perhaps overstated my case (as I tend to do at times), Alon

> and

> > Bob, you must admit that in normative practice, the method of

> producing

> > side effects is for more extreme circumstances.  And, that the

> > physicians, even if they use many medicinals in different forms, are

> > still looking at the overall picture (or as Jim said, perhaps as one

> > very large prescription).

> >

> > Perhaps it is time for us to examine the writings of the 'purgation

> > school' to see how their strategies were designed.

> >

> >

> >

> > On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 08:08  AM, pemachophel2001 wrote:

> >

> > > Z'ev,

> > >

> > > This current discussion highlights the fact that, in CM, oncology

> > > (zhong liu ke) is a very specialized department. In my own limited

> > > experience (my main CM herb teacher, Dr. Yu Min, was a zhong liu

> ke

> > > specialist), it is considered ok and even necessary by some CM

> cancer

> > > specialists to produce side effects when treating cancer with

> Chinese

> > > meds. In that case, other formulas may be given to mitigate those

> side

> > > effects. One of the problems with treating cancer with CM is how

> to

> > > get enough meds into the body to be strong enough to fight the

> evil qi

> > > (according to Sun Bing-yin, a famous CM oncology expert, there is

> > > always evil qi in cancer). Therefore, it is not uncommon to

> prescribe

> > > three, four, or more formulas in various forms (perhaps one

> decoction

> > > and then one or more pills, powders, or injectionas) in order to

> get

> > > in enough medication. When Sun Bing-yin briefly practiced in Palo

> Alto

> > > a number of years ago before the INS shipped him back to the PRC,

> he

> > > commonly prescribed one decoction and three or four pills per day.

> > > When the FDa confiscated these pills, he was effectively

> hamstrung.

> > >

> > > Somewhat along the same lines, when I used to go to the pharmacy

> at

> > > the Long Hua and Yue Yang hospitals in Shanghai, the bao or

> packets

> > > for the cancer patients were always huge. They were markedly

> > > larger than the boa for the treatment of other, benign conditions.

> > > When I asked about this, I was told they were huge because of 1)

> the

> > > larger than normal doses per ingredient, and 2) the larger than

> normal

> > > number of ingredients. Presumably, some of those ingredients were

> in

> > > those formulas to harmonize other ingredients. Certainly that is

> the

> > > case in many of Sun Bing-yin's published formulas.

> > >

> > > These are just some of the reasons I am very trepidatious about

> the CM

> > > treatment of cancer by those not specifically trained in this very

> > > special specialty.

>

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes,

He does teach fingernail diagnosis (using the moons), and yang xu is

part of what he feels is a constitutional factor in cancer patients.

Again, I haven't used the fingernail method extensively to draw

conclusions, but it is quite interesting.

 

 

On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 04:27 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote:

 

> I have Sun Bing-yin's translated text on cancer treatment, and I am

> quite aware of his formulas and approach. Sadly, I have been unable to

> use his prescriptions or approach, because 1) there is no one to train

> me directly 2) there are legal issues in primary cancer treatment by

> TCM.

>

> >>>>>If we are thinking of the same person do you use his ideas of

> finger nails and yang def. I took his classes and was able to watch him

> work a little. Unfortunately not enough to make any conclusions.

> Alon

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bob:

 

Would you consider a subscription series to offset the initial

costs? If you get some guarenteed money up front would that help

make the ROI more attractive?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

-- In , " pemachophel2001 " A few years ago, I

looked into the possibility of translating the whole book using

Nigelspeak. However, there were, as I remember, issues about

copyright, and, with such a small projected readership, the ROI

wasn't there to make the project worthwhile.

[Guest guest]

What other methods of diagnosis does Sun Bing-yin do besides

fingernails?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> Yes,

> He does teach fingernail diagnosis (using the moons), and yang

xu is part of what he feels is a constitutional factor in cancer

patients.

> Again, I haven't used the fingernail method extensively to draw

> conclusions, but it is quite interesting.

>

>

> On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 04:27 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote:

>

> > I have Sun Bing-yin's translated text on cancer treatment, and I

am

> > quite aware of his formulas and approach. Sadly, I have been

unable to

> > use his prescriptions or approach, because 1) there is no one to

train

> > me directly 2) there are legal issues in primary cancer

treatment by

> > TCM.

> >

> > >>>>>If we are thinking of the same person do you use his ideas

of

> > finger nails and yang def. I took his classes and was able to

watch him

> > work a little. Unfortunately not enough to make any conclusions.

> > Alon

> >

>

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

variety

> > of professional services, including board approved online

continuing

> > education.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

I don't know if the book is out of print or not. Miriam had a female

student that was like her apprentice. I don't remember her name, but

Honora knows it. I'll ask her. This student would know how to contact

the English language publisher, Offete Press. This student was a

cotranslator with Miriam. I'll see if I can find out more for you.

 

I have kept my eyes peeled for a Chinese language version of this book

for several years now and I have yet to come across one in any

Chinese bookstore. Miriam probably has a copy, but she is now living

with her brother in L.A. and is mostly incapacitated (physically and,

it appears, mentally) after suffering a stroke. So I doubt if a copy

could be gotten that way, although it might be possible. Miriam has a

round-eyed nephew-in-law who is handling her affairs. I don't know if

he could help or not. He's quite nice. There's also the Chinese

gentleman who took over miriam's practice in Palo Alto. I believe he

was around when Dr. Sun was in the U.S. So he might have a copy.

 

You know Blue Poppy published a textbook on the treatment of cancer 10

years or more ago. My guess is that you own a copy of that book. We

eventually let that book go out of print for two reasons: 1) It sold

incredibly poorly. It was in print for 5-6 years, maybe more, and we

never went to a second printing (meaning it took 5-6 years to sell

1,000 copies). 2) We were concerned over people who had not been

trained to treat cancer trying to treat this groups of diseases out of

a textbook. I don't know to this day whether or not BPP would be

willing to publish another book on the CM treatment of cancer.

 

One of the things I would like to see addressed by the schools is a

statement about the scope of competence in terms of diseases of new

graduates. A number of years ago, Chen Ke-ji, a high mucky-muck in PRC

CM, wrote an article stating that, in his opinion, American

acupuncturists are only qualified to treat a very limited number of

relatively easy to treat conditions, i.e., the conditions discussed in

CAM. While I do not think this is the case currently, it is my

experience that recent graduates assume they can and should attempt to

treat anything and everything no matter whether A) they have been

specifically trained in that disease or specialty or B) they have

access to good information on that condition or specialty. It seems to

me that this is a kind of blind spot within our profession. If one has

not been trained in CM obstetrics, then why should we think we should

attempt to treat a pregnant woman? The same goes for a number of very

serious, very difficult to treat conditions which, in China, tend to

be reserved for the " old Chinese doctors, " and I mean this term both

literally and figuratively as a title of rank.

 

I understnad that this is a sticky wicket. Sometimes, the only way to

get experience in treating a condition is to jump in and give it a

try. Because we treat primarily on the basis of pattern, perhaps there

is not as much disease specific information to know as in WM. However,

at BPE, we hear all the time from students and practitioners who are

attempting to treat really scary diseases with basically no training

and no access to good information on those diseases. I keep wondering

why we think we can try to treat anything even if it exceeds our scope

of education. I wonder what a Western MD would say if he or she heard

someone was attmepting to treat psoriasis without ever having done a

course in dermatology, let alone a clinical internship or rotation.

 

I would be very interested in hearing other people's opinions about

this issue. Please let me be clear: When I was a beginner, I did this

myself. I never questioned whether I was working over my head. So

please don't think I'm throwing stones at anyone. I most definitely

did live in the same glass house. Nevertheless, how come many of us

tend not to ask ourselves this question? Why don't we as a profession

address this issue in a medically ethically responsible way? I think

it would be a milestone in our evolutionary maturation if we did bite

this bullet as a profession. Even within CM, there are specialties,

and, if you're going to treat a patient within that specialty, you

should have some kind of training or education in that specialty. That

training might be formal and conducted in school, but I would also not

exclude self-education. I think it's one thing if you attempt to treat

something after having studied all the available literature and

another if you attempt to treat something after having called up a

customer service person at an herb company.

 

Am I making any sense here?

 

Bob

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> Bob,

>

> It is too bad you couldn't put out a version of Dr. Sun's book. . .

..you

> are right, the translation job is poor on what appears to be an

> excellent work. I'd be interested in getting a Chinese copy.

>

> Hasn't the English version of his book been out of print for several

> years now? I originally got mine, on your recommendation, from Dr.

> Miriam Lee directly. I've never seen it offered anywhere else.

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> > education.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

Interesting idea. However, we already do do this kind of thing, only

we call it a " prepublication sale. " I doubt that there would be enough

" rs " to make it feasible. Ten years ago, the PRC passed a

retroactive copyright law. So someone does own the copyright to this

book. Our experience is that Chinese copyright owners have grossly

inflated ideas about the worth of English language translation rights

of CM books. That's one of the reasons that BPP publishes

premodern books more than 100 years old (they're not protected by

copyright), or new works by Western authors. What I'm getting at is

that, 1) you'd have to buy the translation rights, 2) you'd have to

pay to have the translation done, the text edited and proofread, and

the book designed, and 3) you'd have to pay for the printing cost.

Based on my experience marketing to this niche market, a subscription

deal or prepub sale might cover most of the printing and binding

costs, but wouldn't come near to covering the prepress costs.

 

This market is just so damned small. When you then create a book that

is going to appeal to an even more narrowly targeted subset, all

ability to make a profit disappears. Already, BPP owes me tens of

thousands of dollars in back royalties that they cannot afford to

pay and still make books available to this market. I've heard that

Churchill Livingstone is pulling back from this market for this very

reason. It's too small.

 

In our experience, there are too many restrictions on and liabilities

with the CM treatment of cancer in too many states for there to be a

viable market for this kind of book. Let's run the numbers. You start

with 10,000 English-reading CM practitioners who buy English language

books. The other 5,000 Asian practitioners tend not to buy English

language books. Then, if you create a really good book, maybe you sell

to 1 in 10 of that 10,000. (If you create a book that all the schools

adopt as a required textbook, ok, that's something different. Then you

may get 10 in 10.) Now figure that only a proportion of practitioners

are going to be willing or even legally able to treat cancer. So now

you're not working with a potential target market of 10,000. I would

say you're probably looking at less than half that number. Now you

sell to 1 in 10 of that lesser number, and you're down into the realm

of only a couple/few hundred books.

 

Yes, we now have POD, print on demand capibility. So we can do short

runs much easier than we once could. However, the cost of a book is

not the cost of printing and binding. It's the prepress costs, i.e.,

paying people by the hour for hundreds of hours of writing,

translating, editing, proofreading, designing, and then proofreading

again. Now add on the costs of marketing and advertising so that

people now the book is available. A full page color ad in AT costs

$1,000 per month. And don't forget there have to be people who

take the orders, do the accounting, pick, pack, and ship. It's

prepress, marketing, and fulfillment where the real costs are. That's

why a book is typically priced retail at 8-10 times what the book cost

to physically print and bind.

 

Then there's the other issue of, Should we make such information

available? I've discussed that other issue in my previous posting to

Z'ev. If the schools offered classes in oncology and held oncological

rotations, we might consider it. Right now, there is no bona fide way

of learning CM oncology in the U.S. (at least none that I know of)

even though a number of Enlgish language books on this subject do

already exist. A three hour class on breast cancer at the Pacific

Symposium is dubious ethically, at least in my mind.

 

Bob

 

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> Bob:

>

> Would you consider a subscription series to offset the initial

> costs? If you get some guarenteed money up front would that help

> make the ROI more attractive?

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

>

> -- In , " pemachophel2001 " A few years ago, I

> looked into the possibility of translating the whole book using

> Nigelspeak. However, there were, as I remember, issues about

> copyright, and, with such a small projected readership, the ROI

> wasn't there to make the project worthwhile.

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

Sun looks at the inside of the cheeks for teeth imprints. He also

looks for white spots on the skin as well as small red spots or

what I believe are called cherry hemangiomas. Nodulations in the ears

are also important signs to him. This is on top of normal tongue,

pulse, and the four examinations. If I remember correctly, he

emphasizes three special marks and four subsidiary signs on top of

what we all learn as standard.

 

Bob

 

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> What other methods of diagnosis does Sun Bing-yin do besides

> fingernails?

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

>

> , " " <zrosenbe@s...>

> wrote:

> > Yes,

> > He does teach fingernail diagnosis (using the moons), and yang

> xu is part of what he feels is a constitutional factor in cancer

> patients.

> > Again, I haven't used the fingernail method extensively to draw

> > conclusions, but it is quite interesting.

> >

> >

> > On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 04:27 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote:

> >

> > > I have Sun Bing-yin's translated text on cancer treatment, and I

> am

> > > quite aware of his formulas and approach. Sadly, I have been

> unable to

> > > use his prescriptions or approach, because 1) there is no one to

> train

> > > me directly 2) there are legal issues in primary cancer

> treatment by

> > > TCM.

> > >

> > > >>>>>If we are thinking of the same person do you use his ideas

> of

> > > finger nails and yang def. I took his classes and was able to

> watch him

> > > work a little. Unfortunately not enough to make any conclusions.

> > > Alon

> > >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> > > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> > > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

> variety

> > > of professional services, including board approved online

> continuing

> > > education.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Z'ev:

 

Does he say how yang xu relates to the development of cancer?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> Yes,

> He does teach fingernail diagnosis (using the moons), and yang

xu is

> part of what he feels is a constitutional factor in cancer

patients.

> Again, I haven't used the fingernail method extensively to draw

> conclusions, but it is quite interesting.

>

>

> On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 04:27 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote:

>

> > I have Sun Bing-yin's translated text on cancer treatment, and I

am

> > quite aware of his formulas and approach. Sadly, I have been

unable to

> > use his prescriptions or approach, because 1) there is no one to

train

> > me directly 2) there are legal issues in primary cancer

treatment by

> > TCM.

> >

> > >>>>>If we are thinking of the same person do you use his ideas

of

> > finger nails and yang def. I took his classes and was able to

watch him

> > work a little. Unfortunately not enough to make any conclusions.

> > Alon

> >

>

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

variety

> > of professional services, including board approved online

continuing

> > education.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

He does teach fingernail diagnosis (using the moons), and yang xu is part of what he feels is a constitutional factor in cancer patients. Again, I haven't used the fingernail method extensively to draw conclusions, but it is quite interesting.>>>I took all his courses and sow about 20 patients with him at Miriam's clinic, but again unfortunately I was unable to do any meaningful evaluation

Alon

[Guest guest]

What other methods of diagnosis does Sun Bing-yin do besides fingernails?>>>>He actually relied on western diagnosis for a large amount. Most everybody he saw was "Yang Def" because the had reduced moons on fingernails and teeth marks

Alon

[Guest guest]

I wonder what a Western MD would say if he or she heard someone was attmepting to treat psoriasis without ever having done a course in dermatology, let alone a clinical internship or rotation. >>>>Done every day

Alon

[Guest guest]

1) you'd have to buy the translation rights, 2) you'd have to pay to have the translation done, the text edited and proofread, and the book designed, and 3)

>>>And endup with formulas that you could not really use legally in US. I do not think mercury would fly unless prescribed by an MD. To dangerous

Alon

[Guest guest]

I've heard that Churchill Livingstone is pulling back from this market for this very reason. It's too small. >>>That would be terrible I like their books. Would this be all CAM books?

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " pemachophel2001 " <

pemachophel2001> wrote:

>

> One of the things I would like to see addressed by the schools is a

> statement about the scope of competence in terms of diseases of new

> graduates. ... it is my

> experience that recent graduates assume they can and should attempt to

> treat anything and everything

 

this is a big problem, IMO. I always advise people against doing

obstetrics upon graduation. we have no specialized training in this

and they will get no clinical expereince in this area.

 

The same goes for a number of very

> serious, very difficult to treat conditions which, in China, tend to

> be reserved for the " old Chinese doctors, " and I mean this term both

> literally and figuratively as a title of rank.

 

as for cancer, we always get a small number of patients in the school

clinic who refuse modern treatment, thus we end up treating them. One

case that came across my desk recently was a woman who should have had

a lumpectomy 2 years ago. Upon the advice of a quack, she went on a

raw food diet, refused all modern treatment and used inadequate amounts

of herbs prescribed by someone with no formal training in either

herbology or cancer. now she has terminal liver metastases.

 

>

Because we treat primarily on the basis of pattern, perhaps there

> is not as much disease specific information to know as in WM.

 

whether we need to know TCM disease specific info may be debated, but

if you are unfamiliar with the course and prognosis of cancer from a

modern perspective and how it can be successfully treted with

integrative medicine, then you have no right to be treating it.

claiming success with raw food diet has no evidence to support this,

nor does macrobiotics. medicine needs to be evidence based, not based

upon appealing, romantic ideas like if we all ate as god intended in

the garden of eden, we would have no disease. that attitude has

sickened more people than I can count.

 

[Guest guest]

as for cancer, we always get a small number of patients in the school clinic who refuse modern treatment, thus we end up treating them. One case that came across my desk recently was a woman who should have had a lumpectomy 2 years ago. Upon the advice of a quack, she went on a raw food diet, refused all modern treatment and used inadequate amounts of herbs prescribed by someone with no formal training in either herbology or cancer. now she has terminal liver metastases.>>>Todd

Lets not forget that a large number endup in the same place regardless of treatment

alon

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

> >>>Todd

> Lets not forget that a large number endup in the same place regardless of

treatment

> alon

 

no doubt, but given the small size of her lump upon initial dx, she was

in the group who typically have ten year survival or longer. Do you

think she should have had the lumpectomy. I am not a big chemo fan,

but in my experience early stage lumpectomy always increases the

chances of survival. It may be coincidence, but patients who refuse

such treatment generally seem to fare far worse than those who go under

the knife.

 

[Guest guest]

It's always beneficial to use Western tests and info. Or use Western

medicine as the sedation method and CM to focus and support the

immune system. But, what then was his protocol and success for

diagnosis and treatment?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

> What other methods of diagnosis does Sun Bing-yin do besides

> fingernails?

>

> >>>>He actually relied on western diagnosis for a large amount.

Most everybody he saw was " Yang Def " because the had reduced moons

on fingernails and teeth marks

> Alon