doctorate gossip

[Guest guest]

I heard that some CA professional org is opposing the doctorate vigorously.

They want the entry level in CA to be DOM like NM. they want to increase

master's hours for new students to 3900 (from about 3000), but they want

older px just to be grandfathered in as doctors. the claim is that

older px have done the CE and thus are actually better trained than recent

grads. This seems a little self serving to me. Everyone knows

you can spend your CE hours in the bathroom and still get credit.

I find many, if not most, older px to be sorely lacking in every area of

study. they may have the clinical experience, but they do not read

chinese, know only basic TCM and very little western med at all.

There are of course notable exceptions in each of these areas, as exemplified

by some members on this list, but everyone knows I am right about this.

I'm on the fence about the doctorate and how it will affect my career if

I don't get one and have to compete with young whippersnappers who graduated

yesterday and call call themselves doc, but I definitely don't think you

should be granted the DOM or whatever title we choose just because you

graduated in 1980. that's a crock and it will demean our profession.

The AAOM does not support this position.

-- ,

 

 

FAX:

 

[Guest guest]

I don't get one and have to compete with young whippersnappers who graduated yesterday and call themselves doc, but I definitely don't think you should be granted the DOM or whatever title we choose just because you graduated in 1980. that's a crock and it will demean our profession.

 

<<<I totally agree, although think all entry level programs should be a professional Dr degree with a minimum of 4000 hours. That is the standard in the US for primary care except for NP and they have more than 4000 hours. If we grandfather old practioners without some extensive testing than it will hamper the future to OM. I think the future is more important than present titles

Alon

 

-

cha

Thursday, January 31, 2002 5:18 PM

doctorate gossip

I heard that some CA professional org is opposing the doctorate vigorously. They want the entry level in CA to be DOM like NM. they want to increase master's hours for new students to 3900 (from about 3000), but they want older px just to be grandfathered in as doctors. the claim is that older px have done the CE and thus are actually better trained than recent grads. This seems a little self serving to me. Everyone knows you can spend your CE hours in the bathroom and still get credit. I find many, if not most, older px to be sorely lacking in every area of study. they may have the clinical experience, but they do not read chinese, know only basic TCM and very little western med at all. There are of course notable exceptions in each of these areas, as exemplified by some members on this list, but everyone knows I am right about this. I'm on the fence about the doctorate and how it will affect my career if I don't get one and have to compete with young whippersnappers who graduated yesterday and call call themselves doc, but I definitely don't think you should be granted the DOM or whatever title we choose just because you graduated in 1980. that's a crock and it will demean our profession. The AAOM does not support this position. -- Chinese Herbs FAX: Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

At 3:18 PM -0800 1/31/02,

>they want older px just to be grandfathered in as doctors. the

>claim is that older px have done the CE and thus are actually better

>trained than recent grads. This seems a little self serving to me.

>Everyone knows you can spend your CE hours in the bathroom and still

>get credit. I find many, if not most, older px to be sorely lacking

>in every area of study. they may have the clinical experience, but

>they do not read chinese, know only basic TCM and very little

>western med at all.

--

 

I disagree with you about this. There is good precedent for

grandfathering, for example with the pharmacists. Its really not for

you or I to judge the quality of another's practice, or whether some

people are more deserving than others. To the extent that there are

incompetent practitioners out there, they'll be out there whether

they are called doctor or not. More important is that we have a

process that is fair, and doesn't lead to a disjointed profession. I

believe grandfathering achieves that.

 

I think that the arguments against grandfathering are more than a

little self serving when they come from representatives of schools.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

> I disagree with you about this. There is good precedent for

> grandfathering, for example with the pharmacists. Its really not

for > you or I to judge the quality of another's practice, or

whether some > people are more deserving than others. To the extent

that there are > incompetent practitioners out there, they'll be out

there whether > they are called doctor or not. More important is

that we have a > process that is fair, and doesn't lead to a

disjointed profession. I > believe grandfathering achieves that.

>

> I think that the arguments against grandfathering are more than a

> little self serving when they come from representatives of schools.

 

 

I agree with Rory on this. How can you marginalize the most

experienced practitioners? Consider all their extra continuing

education, research, and clinical experience. If an arbitrary number

of hours can allow you to be called a doctor, why not credit older

practitioners with the experience and education they have accrued?

 

And, it is important to present a more unified image to the public.

What message do we send to the public if you've been practicing for

20+ years and aren't entrusted with the same title and status as

someone who has just graduated?

 

And who will these whippersnappers learn from in the first place?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, wrote:

I find many, if not most, older px to be sorely lacking in

> every area of study. they may have the clinical experience, but

they do not read chinese, know only basic TCM and very little

western med at all. There are of course notable exceptions . . .

 

 

 

Are all California schools requiring Chinese---and what level of

proficiency is needed to graduate?

 

Despite the extended hours, I doubt that the new doctoral graduates

will know more than remedial TCM; even fewer will probably know 5-

Phases, although the classical authors have written extensively

about it.

 

Perhaps it's time that continuing education units were more

structured, too, rather than random---say classes in Chinese, 5-

Phases, and Western medicine?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

 

>

> I think that the arguments against grandfathering are more than a

> little self serving when they come from representatives of schools.

>

> Rory

> --

 

I'll assume you are not referring to me. I am a school employee, not a

representative. I have no vested financial interest in my school. I

will not be teaching at the doctoral level and I may eventually have to

find new employment unless I do something I really do not want to do,

which is go back to school. However, you are correct that those who

actually represent schools may be as self serving as those who want the

title of doctor without the training. I personally would actually be

served better by being grandfathered than I would by having to return

to school. However, I can also honestly say most everyone I know who

does represent schools where I have worked is genuinely interested in

improving the profession via the doctorate. As motives go, the schools

are probably a mix. Who do those who want to be grandfathered serve

besides themselves? Even if they are justified in deserving this

title, it is still pure self-interest. Self-interest is the raison

d'etre of professional organizations and they have every right to push

their case, but lets call a spade a spade.

 

[Guest guest]

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

 

> I agree with Rory on this. How can you marginalize the most

> experienced practitioners?

 

If there is to be a doctoral level competency exam and those who are

out in practice can pass it, give them the title. If you are unable to

show competency in whatever is decided to constitute doctoral level

training, it makes no sense to get the title. If you have been waving

a crystal over someone for 20 years, why should you get a doctorate

that is for those who have studied the classics, chinese language and

learned to do research? I am all for equivalency testing, but time in

practice does not equal equivalency. I know plenty who could pass such

and exam and plenty who couldn't. BTW, it will probably not be

american old-timers who teach at the doctoral level. It will probably

be doctors from china. And as I said, I would be well served

personally by automatic grandfathering, but I do not think the public

would be.

 

[Guest guest]

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

 

 

> Are all California schools requiring Chinese

 

no.

 

>

> Despite the extended hours, I doubt that the new doctoral graduates

> will know more than remedial TCM;

 

actually at PCOM, they will study nei jing, SHL, jin gui, jia yi jing

fairly extensively

 

 

>

> Perhaps it's time that continuing education units were more

> structured, too, rather than random---say classes in Chinese, 5-

> Phases, and Western medicine?

 

Perhaps,indeed....

 

[Guest guest]

Seems to me it is even better to offer both. DOM and

PhD(doctoral) are in no way related. All of us should

be considered Doctors at completion of our education,

thats what we are. But we are not Phd's big

difference, one is medically trained the other has

done research, defended it and is an expert in a very

narrow field. I get the feeling the two terms are

being blended and that is not the way the western

eductational system works.

 

Bob

 

 

--- Rory Kerr <rorykerr wrote:

> At 3:18 PM -0800 1/31/02,

> >they want older px just to be grandfathered in as

> doctors. the

> >claim is that older px have done the CE and thus

> are actually better

> >trained than recent grads. This seems a little

> self serving to me.

> >Everyone knows you can spend your CE hours in the

> bathroom and still

> >get credit. I find many, if not most, older px to

> be sorely lacking

> >in every area of study. they may have the clinical

> experience, but

> >they do not read chinese, know only basic TCM and

> very little

> >western med at all.

> --

>

> I disagree with you about this. There is good

> precedent for

> grandfathering, for example with the pharmacists.

> Its really not for

> you or I to judge the quality of another's practice,

> or whether some

> people are more deserving than others. To the extent

> that there are

> incompetent practitioners out there, they'll be out

> there whether

> they are called doctor or not. More important is

> that we have a

> process that is fair, and doesn't lead to a

> disjointed profession. I

> believe grandfathering achieves that.

>

> I think that the arguments against grandfathering

> are more than a

> little self serving when they come from

> representatives of schools.

>

> Rory

> --

>

 

 

 

 

Great stuff seeking new owners in Auctions!

http://auctions.

[Guest guest]

>I'll assume you are not referring to me.

--

 

No I certainly wasn't. I was referring to the rather long history of

this issue, and how the schools and their associations, have

successfully squelched support for grandfathering.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

At 7:10 AM +0000 2/1/02, 1 wrote:

>I can also honestly say most everyone I know who

>does represent schools where I have worked is genuinely interested in

>improving the profession via the doctorate.

--

Yes, but I think this is a faulty objective. The less competent

practitioners currently in place are unlikely to engage in 2-3000

hours of additional education, so the objective of raising standards

won't be met. Those that are competent also unlikely to join the

programs, although some may do so, simply because they don't need to

educationally, can't afford to, etc. Those people will be precluded

from the doctorate. The profession will improve over time if

educational and licensing standards rise.

 

The schools are entitled to a voice, but they have no business trying

to dominate a debate about how to improve the profession and control

its outcome. That is what they have done.

 

 

>As motives go, the schools

>are probably a mix. Who do those who want to be grandfathered serve

>besides themselves?

--

Their patients?

 

 

>Even if they are justified in deserving this

>title, it is still pure self-interest. Self-interest is the raison

>d'etre of professional organizations and they have every right to push

>their case, but lets call a spade a spade.

--

What this comes down to is power. Schools are concentrations of

capital, and have the personnel to exercise that capital politically

in pursuit of their self interest. Professionals have no voice

individually, and their professional associations are peopled by

volunteers on the edge of exhaustion and with few resources. Who do

you imagine is going to get their way in these circumstances?

 

Like you I teach in school and professional seminars. I have no real

objection to doing some more education, but 2000 hours plus is beyond

reason. In fact, I have well over 2000 hours of formal educational

time in special programs, CE seminars (I was not in the bathroom),

and clinic in China. In addition to that I have many uncounted hours

'following " senior doctors in this country. According to the schools

all this will count for nothing in designing a doctoral program for

me. I'm not trying to plead my case to you, just trying to illustrate

the point that the schools should not be the sole arbiters of what is

reasonable if they are going to adopt such an inflexible approach. Do

you really think that 15+ years of practice should count for nothing?

 

Why are you so worried about a few people (very few I imagine) being

called doctor who perhaps don't deserve it? It didn't cause problems

for the pharmacists, why should it for us? After a few years it will

no longer be an issue.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

At 7:21 AM +0000 2/1/02, 1 wrote:

>If there is to be a doctoral level competency exam and those who are

>out in practice can pass it, give them the title. If you are unable to

>show competency in whatever is decided to constitute doctoral level

>training, it makes no sense to get the title.

--

I agree, equivalency assessment and competency testing are the way to

go, but this is not what the schools are proposing, afaik. Who should

do this?

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

I disagree with you about this. There is good precedent for grandfathering, for example with the pharmacists.

>>>>That was long ago. Also, look at what happened with american academy of pain

Alon

 

-

Rory Kerr

Thursday, January 31, 2002 5:23 PM

Re: doctorate gossip

At 3:18 PM -0800 1/31/02, >they want older px just to be grandfathered in as doctors. the >claim is that older px have done the CE and thus are actually better >trained than recent grads. This seems a little self serving to me. >Everyone knows you can spend your CE hours in the bathroom and still >get credit. I find many, if not most, older px to be sorely lacking >in every area of study. they may have the clinical experience, but >they do not read chinese, know only basic TCM and very little >western med at all.-- I disagree with you about this. There is good precedent for grandfathering, for example with the pharmacists. Its really not for you or I to judge the quality of another's practice, or whether some people are more deserving than others. To the extent that there are incompetent practitioners out there, they'll be out there whether they are called doctor or not. More important is that we have a process that is fair, and doesn't lead to a disjointed profession. I believe grandfathering achieves that.I think that the arguments against grandfathering are more than a little self serving when they come from representatives of schools.Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Teresa Hall wrote:

 

> On another note, I recently acquired a number of, apparantly, the only

> approved Doctorate in Oriental Medicine available in California...

 

Are your referring to the Ph.D. in Classical Acupuncture? Something

like that? That's an academic degree, different than the OMD, DOM,

M-O-U-S-E thing that we've been talking about.

 

Or is this that guy in Anaheim Hills. I think you can get a doctorate of

divinity through him too.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

At 9:11 AM -0800 2/1/02, ALON MARCUS

wrote:

I disagree

with you about this. There is good precedent for

grandfathering, for example with the pharmacists.

>>>>That was long ago. Also, look at

what happened with american academy of pain

--

 

'Long ago' doesn't invalidate it as a precedent. What did happen

with the american academy of pain? who are they?

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

As motives go, the schools are probably a mix. Who do those who want to be grandfathered serve besides themselves? Even if they are justified in deserving this title, it is still pure self-interest. Self-interest is the raison d'etre of professional organizations and they have every right to push their case, but lets call a spade a spade.>>>>>I think in general the profession is best served if first there is a regionally accredited Dr program. When this is established we should decide what to do with older practitioners. Personally I think the DO model is best. What they did is everyone had to show that they had schooling in some areas and they offered ceu's for those that missed some aspects. Than they did the grandforthering

Alon

 

-

1

Thursday, January 31, 2002 11:10 PM

Re: doctorate gossip

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:> > I think that the arguments against grandfathering are more than a > little self serving when they come from representatives of schools.> > Rory> --I'll assume you are not referring to me. I am a school employee, not a representative. I have no vested financial interest in my school. I will not be teaching at the doctoral level and I may eventually have to find new employment unless I do something I really do not want to do, which is go back to school. However, you are correct that those who actually represent schools may be as self serving as those who want the title of doctor without the training. I personally would actually be served better by being grandfathered than I would by having to return to school. However, I can also honestly say most everyone I know who does represent schools where I have worked is genuinely interested in improving the profession via the doctorate. As motives go, the schools are probably a mix. Who do those who want to be grandfathered serve besides themselves? Even if they are justified in deserving this title, it is still pure self-interest. Self-interest is the raison d'etre of professional organizations and they have every right to push their case, but lets call a spade a spade. Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I get the feeling the two terms arebeing blended and that is not the way the westerneducational system works.>>>>>>That is why i was saying we should follow the us model and do a professional Dr. not a phd

Alon

 

-

Bob Linde

Friday, February 01, 2002 2:14 AM

Re: doctorate gossip

Seems to me it is even better to offer both. DOM andPhD(doctoral) are in no way related. All of us shouldbe considered Doctors at completion of our education,thats what we are. But we are not Phd's bigdifference, one is medically trained the other hasdone research, defended it and is an expert in a verynarrow field. I get the feeling the two terms arebeing blended and that is not the way the westerneductational system works.Bob--- Rory Kerr <rorykerr wrote:> At 3:18 PM -0800 1/31/02, > >they want older px just to be grandfathered in as> doctors. the > >claim is that older px have done the CE and thus> are actually better > >trained than recent grads. This seems a little> self serving to me. > >Everyone knows you can spend your CE hours in the> bathroom and still > >get credit. I find many, if not most, older px to> be sorely lacking > >in every area of study. they may have the clinical> experience, but > >they do not read chinese, know only basic TCM and> very little > >western med at all.> --> > I disagree with you about this. There is good> precedent for > grandfathering, for example with the pharmacists.> Its really not for > you or I to judge the quality of another's practice,> or whether some > people are more deserving than others. To the extent> that there are > incompetent practitioners out there, they'll be out> there whether > they are called doctor or not. More important is> that we have a > process that is fair, and doesn't lead to a> disjointed profession. I > believe grandfathering achieves that.> > I think that the arguments against grandfathering> are more than a > little self serving when they come from> representatives of schools.> > Rory> -- > Great stuff seeking new owners in Auctions! http://auctions.The Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

The schools are entitled to a voice, but they have no business trying to dominate a debate about how to improve the profession and control its outcome. That is what they have done.>>>>You are correct and they have done so, so far

alon

 

-

Rory Kerr

Friday, February 01, 2002 6:30 AM

Re: doctorate gossip

At 7:10 AM +0000 2/1/02, 1 wrote:>I can also honestly say most everyone I know who>does represent schools where I have worked is genuinely interested in>improving the profession via the doctorate.--Yes, but I think this is a faulty objective. The less competent practitioners currently in place are unlikely to engage in 2-3000 hours of additional education, so the objective of raising standards won't be met. Those that are competent also unlikely to join the programs, although some may do so, simply because they don't need to educationally, can't afford to, etc. Those people will be precluded from the doctorate. The profession will improve over time if educational and licensing standards rise.The schools are entitled to a voice, but they have no business trying to dominate a debate about how to improve the profession and control its outcome. That is what they have done.>As motives go, the schools>are probably a mix. Who do those who want to be grandfathered serve>besides themselves?--Their patients?>Even if they are justified in deserving this>title, it is still pure self-interest. Self-interest is the raison>d'etre of professional organizations and they have every right to push>their case, but lets call a spade a spade.--What this comes down to is power. Schools are concentrations of capital, and have the personnel to exercise that capital politically in pursuit of their self interest. Professionals have no voice individually, and their professional associations are peopled by volunteers on the edge of exhaustion and with few resources. Who do you imagine is going to get their way in these circumstances?Like you I teach in school and professional seminars. I have no real objection to doing some more education, but 2000 hours plus is beyond reason. In fact, I have well over 2000 hours of formal educational time in special programs, CE seminars (I was not in the bathroom), and clinic in China. In addition to that I have many uncounted hours 'following" senior doctors in this country. According to the schools all this will count for nothing in designing a doctoral program for me. I'm not trying to plead my case to you, just trying to illustrate the point that the schools should not be the sole arbiters of what is reasonable if they are going to adopt such an inflexible approach. Do you really think that 15+ years of practice should count for nothing?Why are you so worried about a few people (very few I imagine) being called doctor who perhaps don't deserve it? It didn't cause problems for the pharmacists, why should it for us? After a few years it will no longer be an issue.Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

OMD, DOM,M-O-U-S-E thing that we've been talking about.>>>These should be the type of degrees but not mousy. These ae professional degrees like MD

 

-

Al Stone

Friday, February 01, 2002 10:12 AM

Re: Re: doctorate gossip

Teresa Hall wrote:> On another note, I recently acquired a number of, apparantly, the only> approved Doctorate in Oriental Medicine available in California... Are your referring to the Ph.D. in Classical Acupuncture? Somethinglike that? That's an academic degree, different than the OMD, DOM,M-O-U-S-E thing that we've been talking about.Or is this that guy in Anaheim Hills. I think you can get a doctorate ofdivinity through him too.-- Al Stone L.Ac.<AlStonehttp://www.BeyondWellBeing.comPain is inevitable, suffering is optional.Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

they are a national organization that first grandfothered their members (as a so called study of what the standards should be for their board) but because they did this they are not excepted by main stream as much as they should

Alon

 

-

Rory Kerr

Friday, February 01, 2002 10:51 AM

Re: doctorate gossip

 

At 9:11 AM -0800 2/1/02, ALON MARCUS wrote:

I disagree with you about this. There is good precedent forgrandfathering, for example with the pharmacists.

>>>>That was long ago. Also, look at what happened with american academy of pain

--

 

'Long ago' doesn't invalidate it as a precedent. What did happen with the american academy of pain? who are they?

 

Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...>

 

> >>>>>I think in general the profession is best served if first there

is a regionally accredited Dr program. When this is established we

should decide what to do with older practitioners.

 

What do you consider an " older practitioner " ? And who is the " we "

that shall make this decision? Thanks.

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

What do you consider an "older practitioner"? And who is the "we" that shall make this decision? Thanks.>>>>>Good question. Probably the national organizations i would think

Alon

 

-

fbernall

Friday, February 01, 2002 2:20 PM

Re: doctorate gossip

, "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> > >>>>>I think in general the profession is best served if first there is a regionally accredited Dr program. When this is established we should decide what to do with older practitioners.What do you consider an "older practitioner"? And who is the "we" that shall make this decision? Thanks.FernandoChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

PCOM may be an exceptional school, but what is the standard in

California?

 

Can you send/post a syllabus? I'd like to see how you can fit all

those classics in.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

> > Despite the extended hours, I doubt that the new doctoral

graduates will know more than remedial TCM;

>

> actually at PCOM, they will study nei jing, SHL, jin gui, jia yi

jing fairly extensively

[Guest guest]

As a new graduate and practitioner seeing approximately 15+ patients a week,

I totally support the voice that graduates, who are graduating with 3200 +

hours, should graduate with a title of Doctor. A 4+ year Master program is

almost absurd. In most all professions Masters degrees are earned in 2

years.

 

I recently committed to a VERY intensive, year long program... in which in

the end and by passing a practical and written exam, can say I specialize in

Acupuncture Orthopedics. The program is 300 hours long... and the hours I

believe are transferable to some California schools. At any rate... I am

feeling very comfortable interacting with other Doctors. I believe

Networking and referring patients out keeps the Qi moving... and by doing

so, I will also receive many referrals. I do not have a problem, at all...

referring a patient to another acupuncturist... chiro, herbalist...

Neurosurgeon, psychologist, radiologist etc. I believe the KEY is knowing

when to refer. Most professionals in the Medical field want to know more

about us and what we do... and when they should refer to us. From what they

say... almost every day they have a patient ask, what about Acupuncture \or

herbal medicine " will that help my condition " ?

 

This Orthopedic course is totally filling in the cacks... in regards to

things that I did not learn in the classroom. Like how to make money!

 

On another note, I recently acquired a number of, apparantly, the only

approved Doctorate in Oriental Medicine available in California... I plan to

call the State Boards, for verification on this... if this information is in

fact true, I can share the number with anyone who is interested. I believe

the program can be done from home and at ones own pace.

 

 

In Health & Happiness!

 

Teresa Hall, L.Ac.

Kwan Yin Holistic Center of San Diego

619-517-1188

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

While your argument is somewhat persuasive, there are still a number

of questions unanswered.

 

What will be the requirements for someone to sit for the doctorate

test? Will new graduates " outrank " Asian and older Western

practitioners who don't want to sit for another test?

 

Will the " doctors from China " be required to pass the exam, too? Or

do they deserve a presumption of competence that most older Western

practitioners do not enjoy? What about doctors from Korean, Vietman,

and Japan---do they have equivalent standing to the Chinese?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

P.S. Can you post the syllabus for PCOM's classes that conver the

classics?

 

 

 

 

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:> If

there is to be a doctoral level competency exam and those who re >

out in practice can pass it, give them the title. If you are unable

to > show competency in whatever is decided to constitute octoral

level > training, it makes no sense to get the title. If you have

been waving > a crystal over someone for 20 years, why should you

get a doctorate > that is for those who have studied the classics,

chinese language and > learned to do research? I am all for

equivalency testing, but time in > practice does not equal

equivalency. I know plenty who could pass such

> and exam and plenty who couldn't. BTW, it will probably not be

> american old-timers who teach at the doctoral level. It will

probably > be doctors from china. And as I said, I would be well

served > personally by automatic grandfathering, but I do not think

the public > would be.

>