Herbal Injectables in FL?

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I did not attend. I plan on giving the lawsuits

a few years to work themselves out before considering

the use of injections. I do know the teacher and in

general he always teaches out of two of his books from

china, which of course have not been translated.

bob

 

--- dragon90405 <yulong wrote:

> Bob,

>

>

> , Bob Linde

> <bob_and_robin> wrote:

> > I just found the brochure for that course, it must

> > explain why they have taught part one twice, They

> are

> > covering the basics (for $120) and will teach the

> > actual hands on in part two once the guide lines

> are

> > established.

>

> Is there any citation of or reference to anything in

> writing?

> If there's anyone on the list who has done

> the training, I'd like to see a rundown on

> what is covered, particularly noting the

> materials being used to train the

> related knowledge and skills.

>

> Ken

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

Great stuff seeking new owners in Auctions!

http://auctions.

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

Do you know anyone who has taken the

class? I'd be very interested to

know the titles and authors and

other publication data if available

of the books that are being used

to teach the use of injectables.

 

I'm sorry if I missed it earlier, but

what school is this?

 

Ken

 

, Bob Linde <bob_and_robin> wrote:

> Sorry, I did not attend. I plan on giving the lawsuits

> a few years to work themselves out before considering

> the use of injections. I do know the teacher and in

> general he always teaches out of two of his books from

> china, which of course have not been translated.

> bob

>

> --- dragon90405 <yulong@m...> wrote:

> > Bob,

> >

> >

> > , Bob Linde

> > <bob_and_robin> wrote:

> > > I just found the brochure for that course, it must

> > > explain why they have taught part one twice, They

> > are

> > > covering the basics (for $120) and will teach the

> > > actual hands on in part two once the guide lines

> > are

> > > established.

> >

> > Is there any citation of or reference to anything in

> > writing?

> > If there's anyone on the list who has done

> > the training, I'd like to see a rundown on

> > what is covered, particularly noting the

> > materials being used to train the

> > related knowledge and skills.

> >

> > Ken

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

> Great stuff seeking new owners in Auctions!

> http://auctions.

[Guest guest]

Will,

 

Are you aware of what literature is being

used as the basis of instruction in either

location or what was used to support the

process that took place in Florida that

resulted in inclusion of injectables in

the scope of practice there?

 

Ken

 

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> A few schools are doing it in FL and it is being done in New

Mexico. Richard

> Freiberg is conducting one of the FL trainings.

>

> Will

>

> In a message dated 1/29/02 6:39:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> yulong@m... writes:

>

>

> > Do you know anyone who has taken the

> > class? I'd be very interested to

> > know the titles and authors and

> > other publication data if available

> > of the books that are being used

> > to teach the use of injectables.

> >

> > I'm sorry if I missed it earlier, but

> > what school is this?

[Guest guest]

The school is FITCM in St Pete florida, I spoke with

the instructor this morning and he told me he uses

chinese reference books and that there was nothing of

note that he was aware of in english. I have not

talked with anyone who has taken the seminar, but in

general he is an excellent teacher and has excellent

english language skills. His name is Dr. Er Li

 

Bob

--- dragon90405 <yulong wrote:

> Bob,

>

> Do you know anyone who has taken the

> class? I'd be very interested to

> know the titles and authors and

> other publication data if available

> of the books that are being used

> to teach the use of injectables.

>

> I'm sorry if I missed it earlier, but

> what school is this?

>

> Ken

>

> , Bob Linde

> <bob_and_robin> wrote:

> > Sorry, I did not attend. I plan on giving the

> lawsuits

> > a few years to work themselves out before

> considering

> > the use of injections. I do know the teacher and

> in

> > general he always teaches out of two of his books

> from

> > china, which of course have not been translated.

> > bob

> >

> > --- dragon90405 <yulong@m...> wrote:

> > > Bob,

> > >

> > >

> > > , Bob Linde

> > > <bob_and_robin> wrote:

> > > > I just found the brochure for that course, it

> must

> > > > explain why they have taught part one twice,

> They

> > > are

> > > > covering the basics (for $120) and will teach

> the

> > > > actual hands on in part two once the guide

> lines

> > > are

> > > > established.

> > >

> > > Is there any citation of or reference to

> anything in

> > > writing?

> > > If there's anyone on the list who has done

> > > the training, I'd like to see a rundown on

> > > what is covered, particularly noting the

> > > materials being used to train the

> > > related knowledge and skills.

> > >

> > > Ken

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Great stuff seeking new owners in Auctions!

>

> > http://auctions.

>

>

 

 

 

 

Great stuff seeking new owners in Auctions!

http://auctions.

[Guest guest]

I don't know which texts they are using, but are most likely the Chinese

Language texts that they used in the Chinese TCM Schools. They are usually

earth toned paperback texts about a half to three quarters of an inch thick

and generally on a single topic. Our Professors at FITCM used to refer to

them frequently in many of the classes. Many (most) of these texts are not

available in English, which is one of the benefits of studying Chinese as a

language, but I begin to cross threads. Having talked with them about the

use of injectable herbs in China, it seemed a pity that we were not able to

make use of them here as they are the superior modality in many severe

cases. I know that they discussed not only single herbs, but also classic

formulations that were manufactured in China for the sole use as injectables

in the hospitals (very clean and pure). At the time, FITCM did not offer

the course so my knowledge is simply from private and class discussions with

our Professors, however I am not surprised that Dr Ku would offer it as soon

as the law was passed in Florida. It is nice to see that he is still at the

forefront of teaching TCM in this country. At least there are a couple of

states that are beginning to expand our modality base to allow for more

'modern' techniques, which we would be expected to be familiar with as TCM

Drs in China. I fear that we will all be long retired before our scope of

practice in this country begins to broaden to this level nationally.

 

I wish all of the Practitioners in Florida & New Mexico the very best, but

the AMA will likely continue the fight to prevent as many other states from

doing injections as possible, on the grounds that only they are qualified to

use hypodermic needles, while they make it possible for themselves to do

" Medical " Acupuncture with as few as 50, and in a few states NO hours of

actual training. The U.S. has a long way to go to be able to bring the full

scope of TCM to the public, and we all benefit by your actions.

 

Out of curiosity, does the Florida law also allow a TCM Physician qualified

for point injection therapy to draw blood for labwork, or must the patient

be sent to another clinic?

 

Mel Krueger, L.Ac.

 

M & M's TCM Clinic

Flagstaff, AZ

 

ninjadrs

[Guest guest]

Hi;

 

I attend the National College of Oriental Medicine in Orlando. They are having a series of classes for the Acupoint Injection Therapy. I have taken the first class in the series of six. Anyone interested in a brochure can call Vin Miskel at 407-888-8689. I am trying to get the hand outs that were used in this first session on disk. If I can get them I will post to this list. They went over the points and herbs and amounts to be used in this first session. Hope this is a help.

 

Susan Arnold

 

 

 

-

dragon90405

Tuesday, January 29, 2002 9:59 AM

Re: Herbal Injectables in FL?

Will,Are you aware of what literature is beingused as the basis of instruction in eitherlocation or what was used to support the process that took place in Florida that resulted in inclusion of injectables in the scope of practice there?Ken, WMorris116@A... wrote:> A few schools are doing it in FL and it is being done in New Mexico. Richard > Freiberg is conducting one of the FL trainings.> > Will> > In a message dated 1/29/02 6:39:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, > yulong@m... writes:> > > > Do you know anyone who has taken the> > class? I'd be very interested to> > know the titles and authors and> > other publication data if available> > of the books that are being used> > to teach the use of injectables.> > > > I'm sorry if I missed it earlier, but> > what school is this?Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Yes to your answer on the blood draw. We have had training for that at NCOM in Orlando.

 

Susan Arnold

 

-

Mel Krueger

Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:13 PM

Re: Re: Herbal Injectables in FL?

I don't know which texts they are using, but are most likely the ChineseLanguage texts that they used in the Chinese TCM Schools. They are usuallyearth toned paperback texts about a half to three quarters of an inch thickand generally on a single topic. Our Professors at FITCM used to refer tothem frequently in many of the classes. Many (most) of these texts are notavailable in English, which is one of the benefits of studying Chinese as alanguage, but I begin to cross threads. Having talked with them about theuse of injectable herbs in China, it seemed a pity that we were not able tomake use of them here as they are the superior modality in many severecases. I know that they discussed not only single herbs, but also classicformulations that were manufactured in China for the sole use as injectablesin the hospitals (very clean and pure). At the time, FITCM did not offerthe course so my knowledge is simply from private and class discussions withour Professors, however I am not surprised that Dr Ku would offer it as soonas the law was passed in Florida. It is nice to see that he is still at theforefront of teaching TCM in this country. At least there are a couple ofstates that are beginning to expand our modality base to allow for more'modern' techniques, which we would be expected to be familiar with as TCMDrs in China. I fear that we will all be long retired before our scope ofpractice in this country begins to broaden to this level nationally.I wish all of the Practitioners in Florida & New Mexico the very best, butthe AMA will likely continue the fight to prevent as many other states fromdoing injections as possible, on the grounds that only they are qualified touse hypodermic needles, while they make it possible for themselves to do"Medical" Acupuncture with as few as 50, and in a few states NO hours ofactual training. The U.S. has a long way to go to be able to bring the fullscope of TCM to the public, and we all benefit by your actions.Out of curiosity, does the Florida law also allow a TCM Physician qualifiedfor point injection therapy to draw blood for labwork, or must the patientbe sent to another clinic?Mel Krueger, L.Ac.M & M's TCM ClinicFlagstaff, AZninjadrsThe Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

> I don't know which texts they are using, but are most likely the

Chinese

> Language texts that they used in the Chinese TCM Schools.

 

Depending on when they went to school as well

as where, these could be any of a number of

different versions, editions, etc. of an ongoing

series of basic teaching texts that are approved

by the authorities in China for use in the approved

institutions.

 

They are usually

> earth toned paperback texts about a half to three quarters of an

inch thick

> and generally on a single topic.

 

They come in all different colors. In fact most

of the editions I've seen in both Chengdu and

Beijing are green...if we're talking about

the same books.

 

Our Professors at FITCM used to refer to

> them frequently in many of the classes. Many (most) of these texts

are not

> available in English, which is one of the benefits of studying

Chinese as a

> language, but I begin to cross threads.

 

Perish the thought. But it's pertinent here

as it begins to seem like if you are a

Florida legislator knowledge of Chinese

must now be required. Does anyone know

of any English language materials that

were seen or referred to or spoken about

during the process by which this action

in Florida was effected?

 

Were Chinese language materials presented

to support the inclusion of injectables?

If so, were they translated?

 

Having talked with them about the

> use of injectable herbs in China, it seemed a pity that we were not

able to

> make use of them here as they are the superior modality in many

severe

> cases. I know that they discussed not only single herbs, but also

classic

> formulations that were manufactured in China for the sole use as

injectables

> in the hospitals (very clean and pure). At the time, FITCM did not

offer

> the course so my knowledge is simply from private and class

discussions with

> our Professors, however I am not surprised that Dr Ku would offer

it as soon

> as the law was passed in Florida. It is nice to see that he is

still at the

> forefront of teaching TCM in this country. At least there are a

couple of

> states that are beginning to expand our modality base to allow for

more

> 'modern' techniques, which we would be expected to be familiar with

as TCM

> Drs in China. I fear that we will all be long retired before our

scope of

> practice in this country begins to broaden to this level nationally.

 

What interests me about this is the process

by which a modality is included in the

scope of practice. It's an extension of

the concern about issues of education,

qualification, and standards. It seems

to me that there are two closely related

issues: one is the existence and recognition

of a potentially effective technique; the

other is the process by which it is included

within and therefore broadens the scope

of practice.

 

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Do you have a DEA number in Fl?

Alon

 

-

Mel Krueger

Tuesday, January 29, 2002 4:13 PM

Re: Re: Herbal Injectables in FL?

I don't know which texts they are using, but are most likely the ChineseLanguage texts that they used in the Chinese TCM Schools. They are usuallyearth toned paperback texts about a half to three quarters of an inch thickand generally on a single topic. Our Professors at FITCM used to refer tothem frequently in many of the classes. Many (most) of these texts are notavailable in English, which is one of the benefits of studying Chinese as alanguage, but I begin to cross threads. Having talked with them about theuse of injectable herbs in China, it seemed a pity that we were not able tomake use of them here as they are the superior modality in many severecases. I know that they discussed not only single herbs, but also classicformulations that were manufactured in China for the sole use as injectablesin the hospitals (very clean and pure). At the time, FITCM did not offerthe course so my knowledge is simply from private and class discussions withour Professors, however I am not surprised that Dr Ku would offer it as soonas the law was passed in Florida. It is nice to see that he is still at theforefront of teaching TCM in this country. At least there are a couple ofstates that are beginning to expand our modality base to allow for more'modern' techniques, which we would be expected to be familiar with as TCMDrs in China. I fear that we will all be long retired before our scope ofpractice in this country begins to broaden to this level nationally.I wish all of the Practitioners in Florida & New Mexico the very best, butthe AMA will likely continue the fight to prevent as many other states fromdoing injections as possible, on the grounds that only they are qualified touse hypodermic needles, while they make it possible for themselves to do"Medical" Acupuncture with as few as 50, and in a few states NO hours ofactual training. The U.S. has a long way to go to be able to bring the fullscope of TCM to the public, and we all benefit by your actions.Out of curiosity, does the Florida law also allow a TCM Physician qualifiedfor point injection therapy to draw blood for labwork, or must the patientbe sent to another clinic?Mel Krueger, L.Ac.M & M's TCM ClinicFlagstaff, AZninjadrsThe Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> Do you have a DEA number in Fl?

> Alon

 

I also thought injections were typically carried out in China in

hospitals or clinics equipped with emergency facilities in case of

anaphylaxis. Is there a requirement for such in FL?

 

[Guest guest]

I also thought injections were typically carried out in China in hospitals or clinics equipped with emergency facilities in case of anaphylaxis. Is there a requirement for such in FL?

>>>>I would defiantly require ACLS

Alon

 

-

1

Wednesday, January 30, 2002 9:22 AM

Re: Herbal Injectables in FL?

, "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> Do you have a DEA number in Fl?> AlonI also thought injections were typically carried out in China in hospitals or clinics equipped with emergency facilities in case of anaphylaxis. Is there a requirement for such in FL?ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

> >>>>I would defiantly require ACLS

> Alon

 

what exactly does ACLS mean?

 

[Guest guest]

Al:

 

What was the success rate with injectibles and Bell's Palsy?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

> No references to the legalities, but the medical practice yes.

>

> Let's see... 'The Treatment of 100 Common Diseases by New

Acupuncture "

> (Medicine & Health Publishing Co. The prices on the book cover

indicate

> that it was intended for sale in Hong Kong.) makes mention of

> injectables. Plus I saw them used frequently in China.

Specifically in

> the Bell's Palsy clinic. They injected Dang Gui and vitamin B-12

into GB

> 20.

>

> Also, when I got sick in China, I got an injection into my hip of

Chai

> Hu. I was 90% better inside of an hour. fever came down, nausea

went

> away, dizziness and other indications quickly abated. I love that

stuff.

>

>

> dragon90405 wrote:

> >

> > Al,

> >

> > > Yeah, really.

> > >

> > > Let's clone that initiative!

> >

> > Do you have references or other sources

> > on this subject?

> >

> > Ken

> > >

> > > dragon90405 wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Fernando,

> > > >

> > > > I presume that the inclusion of injectables

> > > > in the scope of practice in Florida was the

> > > > result of some sort of lobbying, filing of

> > > > documents, etc.

> > > >

> > > > Do you know who was moving the initiative

> > > > forward?

> > > >

> > > > Is there a filing available for public

> > > > review that includes citations to relevant

> > > > sources in the literature?

> > >

> > > --

> > > Al Stone L.Ac.

> > > <AlStone@B...>

> > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

> > >

> > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

variety of professional services, including board approved online

continuing education.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Todd ACLS is Advance cardio life support

Injecting anything can result in life threating reactions. One must have Pharmaceutical Meds available on hand.

Alon

 

-

1

Wednesday, January 30, 2002 9:34 AM

Re: Herbal Injectables in FL?

, "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> >>>>I would defiantly require ACLS > Alonwhat exactly does ACLS mean?ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

West Virginia's scope of practice includes " point puncture-the use of sterile

materia medica injected into the acupuncture point for physiologic or

energetic therapy when used in accordance with traditional or modern oriental

medical theory. "

 

Anyone on the list from there?

 

Sherril

[Guest guest]

I really couldn't say. Most people got injected, all got acupuncture. I

don't know how to rate success either. Everybody that I can think of

showed improvement...

 

-al.

 

jramholz wrote:

>

> Al:

>

> What was the success rate with injectibles and Bell's Palsy?

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

> , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

> > No references to the legalities, but the medical practice yes.

> >

> > Let's see... 'The Treatment of 100 Common Diseases by New

> Acupuncture "

> > (Medicine & Health Publishing Co. The prices on the book cover

> indicate

> > that it was intended for sale in Hong Kong.) makes mention of

> > injectables. Plus I saw them used frequently in China.

> Specifically in

> > the Bell's Palsy clinic. They injected Dang Gui and vitamin B-12

> into GB

> > 20.

> >

> > Also, when I got sick in China, I got an injection into my hip of

> Chai

> > Hu. I was 90% better inside of an hour. fever came down, nausea

> went

> > away, dizziness and other indications quickly abated. I love that

> stuff.

> >

> >

> > dragon90405 wrote:

> > >

> > > Al,

> > >

> > > > Yeah, really.

> > > >

> > > > Let's clone that initiative!

> > >

> > > Do you have references or other sources

> > > on this subject?

> > >

> > > Ken

> > > >

> > > > dragon90405 wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Fernando,

> > > > >

> > > > > I presume that the inclusion of injectables

> > > > > in the scope of practice in Florida was the

> > > > > result of some sort of lobbying, filing of

> > > > > documents, etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you know who was moving the initiative

> > > > > forward?

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there a filing available for public

> > > > > review that includes citations to relevant

> > > > > sources in the literature?

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Al Stone L.Ac.

> > > > <AlStone@B...>

> > > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

> > > >

> > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

> variety of professional services, including board approved online

> continuing education.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >