Flow or Connection?

[Guest guest]

Z'ev.....

 

Dr. Shen used basic terms to describe phenomena in elegantly clear fashion. He would describe the pulse as a pump, some tubes, and the fluid in the tubes. To this I would add the ground substance in which these tubes lay.

 

There are many qualities conveyed in this system that have distinct clinical significance - such as the Yu2 pulse for what Dr. Hammer calls 'cotten'. (This is the only pulse conversation in my experience which deals with the perception of the tissues surrounding the vessels. The Drs. describe it as stagnation of Wei Qi.)

 

The 'Qi Wild' pulse is a grouping of pulses that may portend critical critical states and the San (Scattered) pulse is one of them. The diagnosis 'Qi Wild' mandates a visual confirmation with respect to the eyes (they are somewhat crazed). The primary feature according to Dr. Shen is that the pulse lacks root at the depth. Dr. Hammer includes all life threatening images such a serious arrhythmias in this class.

 

A 'nervous system' pulse is none other than a wiry pulse, usually in the Qi depth (the same as a Du channel pulse). This is not a new term, rather - it is a repackaging of an old term that is part of Dr. Shen's commitment to communicating with patients and physicians in the West. This and Dr. Hammer's commitment to rendering something that is sensible in English tends to validate your concerns over the communication rigors between Drs. Shen and Hammer.

This tome, about which a good friend of mine and Dr. Hammer's stated "it's good to have something that will stop a . 38 caliber bullet," will be the source of many conversations to come. I don't think we can write it under the table on the basis of it's weaknesses (a work of this magnitude is bound to have them).

This text was designed to be used in conjunction with teaching by individuals who have received a direct transmission of experience. I think the inability to teach this material to large groups is not an argument against the system. It seems difficult to teach when the group size gets over fifteen.

 

Will

 

In a message dated 1/13/02 7:39:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, zrosenbe writes:

 

 

The problem is that some of these are original terms ("nervous system", "push pulse"), some are not ("qi wild" somewhat derived from "san mai"/scattered pulse). More confusion, more terms for students to learn, more fragmentation of communication between practitioners.

 

 

 

<<I don't see how 'nervous system' pulse can be a useful description if it is not talking about the actual nervous system. It may be clear to you, but try teaching it to a class of forty students.>>

[Guest guest]

I have the same problem with the Hammer material. There is a glossary in the text of Dr. Shen's material, but, to be honest, many of the terms (such as "qi wild", "push pulse", or "nervous system weak", which doesn't even directly refer to the biomedical nervous system) while interesting, seem to be the product of Dr. Shen's limited English skills and Dr. Hammer's ability to intepret them. To propose such terms as standard terminology for a specific pulse system is problematic, because of the lack of reference to pinyin and Chinese characters in the text, and the idiosyncratic use of English biomedical terminology. >>>>>That may be a limitation in their communication but the principle of either creating terms and conditions such as Qi wild, or choosing terms in translation all depend on proper description. If the description is provided their is no problem.

 

Shen's limited English skills and Dr. Hammer's ability to intepret them

>>>Z've do you know this to be true or just because his explanation in the book is poor? which bothers me as well

Alon

 

-

 

Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:08 AM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

Jim, Who decided on the English translations of the Dong Han pulse terminology? How can I trust the choices of terms used, when the articles I've seen don't have either pinyin (or the Korean equivalent) or Korean characters (or their Chinese equivalents)? How do I know the English skills of the Korean teacher, or his ability to communicate from his/her native language into English? Is there a Korean/English medical dictionary(ies) that was consulted? How can I reference the original concepts without characters, pinyin (or equivalent), or a dictionary? If not, I am totally reliant on the English skills of the author and/or translator. And, translation itself is a professional skill.I have the same problem with the Hammer material. There is a glossary in the text of Dr. Shen's material, but, to be honest, many of the terms (such as "qi wild", "push pulse", or "nervous system weak", which doesn't even directly refer to the biomedical nervous system) while interesting, seem to be the product of Dr. Shen's limited English skills and Dr. Hammer's ability to intepret them. To propose such terms as standard terminology for a specific pulse system is problematic, because of the lack of reference to pinyin and Chinese characters in the text, and the idiosyncratic use of English biomedical terminology. Correct translation is not a lightweight issue. It illuminates or obscures essential concepts and material. It is a great responsibility, because this is what is going to be taught and transmitted to a generation of students who will use these skills in their medical practice, on real-life patients. This is not just an intellectual debate. On Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 08:36 AM, jramholz wrote:

Ken:It just took me by surpise that the movement to standardizetranslations is now over.I actually welcome the change because a number of concepts used byKorean pulse diagnosis (or at least my system) are quite differentfrom the Chinese even when the same term is applied. Some of thosedifferences (for example the character of jie, knotting pulse) havebeen discussed earlier in Will Morris' Pulse Diagnosis Forum.Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

I don't see where Ken or anyone else is creating lingo for the sake of lingo, Alon. I see the attempt to find as accurate a reflection of the Chinese medical literature as possible

>>>That is highly debatable

Alon

 

-

 

Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:12 AM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

 

I don't see where Ken or anyone else is creating lingo for the sake of lingo, Alon. I see the attempt to find as accurate a reflection of the Chinese medical literature as possible.Accurately translating and transmitting Chinese medical concepts is no easy undertaking.

-Alon Marcus Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 10:32 AMRe: Re: Flow or Connection?OK. But do you think that it is wise to seek topromote your personal approach, based as yousay it is on poor language skills, as a methodthat others should adopt?Or do you mean to imply that despite not knowingthe words, you have mastered the meanings?>>>>Not at all. So far I understand all the words that have been used perfectly. However, creating lingo for the sake of lingo is elitist and non-helpful on any level. You guys can continue to masturbate all you want but it does not change a thingAlon

[Guest guest]

Henow refers to discussion of the subject aselitist masturbation and asserts that there is nothing to gain from it.>>>Ken,

By the way reading your book did not change my position at all. I still say keeping ones eye on medical practice is the only correct perspective. When, and if, I see any convincing data/argument that the energy put in learning Chinese is worth the effort and that clinical outcomes change I will change my mind. To date I only see independence in translation as the only advantage.

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:44 AM

Re: Flow or Connection?

Mark,, "Mark Reese" <tcm2@r...> wrote:> AmenBefore the service concludes, I would like to pointout that the preacher has already stated he abandoned the study of the subject after determining that itwas not an effective allocation of his time. Henow refers to discussion of the subject aselitist masturbation and asserts that there is nothing to gain from it.You may experience discomfort occasioned by thefact that people are struggling to understandwhat the words and terms of Chinese medicineactually mean. But why do you reckon that is?KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

and, more importantly, to realize that reliance on the Chinese classical literature as the final authority is a serious limitation.>>>That is one of Leon's major points

Alon

 

-

jramholz

Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:19 PM

Re: Flow or Connection?

Z'ev: Who decided on the English translations of the Dong Han pulse terminology? How can I trust the choices of terms used, when the articles I've seen don't have either pinyin (or the Korean equivalent) or Korean characters (or their Chinese equivalents)?Jim: Jiang Jing alone was sole embodiment of the system so there wasn't any competing interpretation. Although developed out of the classical Chinese material, I suspect he actually developed many of the ideas himself. In some ways, it made studying acupuncture much easier. On the down side, while hundreds studied with him only a few of us actually learned and developed the system to any point of sophistication. It's only been in the past several years while trying to seriously write, teach, and communicate with others not already familiar with those concepts, that the problem of common translation terms and explanation has become a problem and necessary to resolve. The exchanges with Ken and Will Morris' pulse diagnosis group go a long way to help develop a common ground to base it on.Z'ev: I have the same problem with the Hammer material. There is a glossary in the text of Dr. Shen's material, but, to be honest, many of the terms (such as "qi wild", "push pulse", or "nervous system weak", which doesn't even directly refer to the biomedical nervous system) while interesting, seem to be the product of Dr. Shen's limited English skills and Dr. Hammer's ability to interpret them. To propose such terms as standard terminology for a specific pulse system is problematic, because of the lack of reference to pinyin and Chinese characters in the text, and the idiosyncratic use of English biomedical terminology.Jim: Hammer studied and worked closely with Shen for at least 8 years; so, I doubt that Shen's limited English skills are the problem. I believe (I haven't studied their system with its creators) the Shen/Hammer pulse system is dramatically different enough to require new skills and new thinking---and, more importantly, to realize that reliance on the Chinese classical literature as the final authority is a serious limitation. The new problem for translation is that Shen (and Jing) are not simply repeating the same information from the past but creating new material, creating an innovation. Thinking the same way that past authors have will not sufficiently help in understanding Shen or Jing. Unfortunately, innovation is often a difficult process. It's not a matter of trust in the religious sense. All observations and clinical practice can and must be demonstrable and reproducible. I only took one class in the Shen/Hammer system but found that I could follow their line of thought without problem. The terms were not problematic and could be easily understood in relation to the actual examination of the pulses. And, in my own system, when I show students completely different types of pulses in their own patients and in each other, they can follow my idea and sense the pulse qualities about which I'm talking. The primary reference for both Shen and Jing is in the sensation of the pulse and, secondarily, in the interpretation.Z'ev: Correct translation is not a lightweight issue. It illuminates or obscures essential concepts and material. It is a great responsibility, because this is what is going to be taught and transmitted to a generation of students who will use these skills in their medical practice, on real-life patients. This is not just an intellectual debate.Jim: Well, there is an intellectual debate going on---primarily in regard to where meaning and authority reside in translation. No one (least of all me) ever doubted the importance of translation, but there are two divergent and competing translation styles---one where literal translation has been preferred (it seems up to now), and the other a more literary translation. I first got caught up in this debate regarding translation styles in college; and it wasn't resolved there either (perhaps it has something to do with the side of the brain which is dominant). People have always worked from the style they thought appropriate; which is why new translations are always written. In our profession, clinical effectiveness should be the final arbiter for meaning and authority.Jim RamholzChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> I don't see where Ken or anyone else is creating lingo for the sake of lingo,

Alon. I see the attempt to find as accurate a reflection of the Chinese medical

literature as possible

> >>>That is highly debatable

 

Alon,

 

You can't be serious. Ken is clearly arguing his position on what he

believes constitutes clear, useful translation methodology. There are

clearly contending viewpoints on this list regarding this topic, but I

do not believe anyone has any motive other than what they believe is

correct, including you. Those who promote the Wiseman standards are

hardly the arbiters or controllers of correct speech in our field.

Books written using the Wiseman terminology (mainly Blue Poppy and

Paradigm) are not the primary basic textbooks at any TCM school of

which I am aware. This is largely due to licensing exams being

designed around other texts that were published first. The fact the

bulk of classical translations and advanced TCM internal medicine texts

DO use Wiseman terminology is fairly telling, though. The majority of

those doing this advanced level transmission has freely chosen to use

this method. Since these are the people who actually read Chinese,

perhaps they have some insight that the rest of us lack. Any of these

upper level texts could have been published by companies using other

methods of translation. No one's arm was twisted. Whatever my

personal opinion on this subject, I believe even those I disagree with

stand behind their positions with integrity. As you know, I have high

regard for the work of many who use methods of translation other than

Wiseman (Bensky, Clavey, Liu, for example).

 

[Guest guest]

The terms were not problematic and could be easily understood in relation to the actual examination of the pulses.

>>>I agree many of shens names are more descriptive than any "traditional" source I have ever read or learned from

Alon

 

-

jramholz

Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:19 PM

Re: Flow or Connection?

Z'ev: Who decided on the English translations of the Dong Han pulse terminology? How can I trust the choices of terms used, when the articles I've seen don't have either pinyin (or the Korean equivalent) or Korean characters (or their Chinese equivalents)?Jim: Jiang Jing alone was sole embodiment of the system so there wasn't any competing interpretation. Although developed out of the classical Chinese material, I suspect he actually developed many of the ideas himself. In some ways, it made studying acupuncture much easier. On the down side, while hundreds studied with him only a few of us actually learned and developed the system to any point of sophistication. It's only been in the past several years while trying to seriously write, teach, and communicate with others not already familiar with those concepts, that the problem of common translation terms and explanation has become a problem and necessary to resolve. The exchanges with Ken and Will Morris' pulse diagnosis group go a long way to help develop a common ground to base it on.Z'ev: I have the same problem with the Hammer material. There is a glossary in the text of Dr. Shen's material, but, to be honest, many of the terms (such as "qi wild", "push pulse", or "nervous system weak", which doesn't even directly refer to the biomedical nervous system) while interesting, seem to be the product of Dr. Shen's limited English skills and Dr. Hammer's ability to interpret them. To propose such terms as standard terminology for a specific pulse system is problematic, because of the lack of reference to pinyin and Chinese characters in the text, and the idiosyncratic use of English biomedical terminology.Jim: Hammer studied and worked closely with Shen for at least 8 years; so, I doubt that Shen's limited English skills are the problem. I believe (I haven't studied their system with its creators) the Shen/Hammer pulse system is dramatically different enough to require new skills and new thinking---and, more importantly, to realize that reliance on the Chinese classical literature as the final authority is a serious limitation. The new problem for translation is that Shen (and Jing) are not simply repeating the same information from the past but creating new material, creating an innovation. Thinking the same way that past authors have will not sufficiently help in understanding Shen or Jing. Unfortunately, innovation is often a difficult process. It's not a matter of trust in the religious sense. All observations and clinical practice can and must be demonstrable and reproducible. I only took one class in the Shen/Hammer system but found that I could follow their line of thought without problem. The terms were not problematic and could be easily understood in relation to the actual examination of the pulses. And, in my own system, when I show students completely different types of pulses in their own patients and in each other, they can follow my idea and sense the pulse qualities about which I'm talking. The primary reference for both Shen and Jing is in the sensation of the pulse and, secondarily, in the interpretation.Z'ev: Correct translation is not a lightweight issue. It illuminates or obscures essential concepts and material. It is a great responsibility, because this is what is going to be taught and transmitted to a generation of students who will use these skills in their medical practice, on real-life patients. This is not just an intellectual debate.Jim: Well, there is an intellectual debate going on---primarily in regard to where meaning and authority reside in translation. No one (least of all me) ever doubted the importance of translation, but there are two divergent and competing translation styles---one where literal translation has been preferred (it seems up to now), and the other a more literary translation. I first got caught up in this debate regarding translation styles in college; and it wasn't resolved there either (perhaps it has something to do with the side of the brain which is dominant). People have always worked from the style they thought appropriate; which is why new translations are always written. In our profession, clinical effectiveness should be the final arbiter for meaning and authority.Jim RamholzChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

No one (least of all me) ever doubted the importance of translation, but there are two divergent and competing translation styles---one where literal translation has been preferred (it seems up to now), and the other a more literary translation.

 

>>>Thank you

Alon

 

-

jramholz

Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:19 PM

Re: Flow or Connection?

Z'ev: Who decided on the English translations of the Dong Han pulse terminology? How can I trust the choices of terms used, when the articles I've seen don't have either pinyin (or the Korean equivalent) or Korean characters (or their Chinese equivalents)?Jim: Jiang Jing alone was sole embodiment of the system so there wasn't any competing interpretation. Although developed out of the classical Chinese material, I suspect he actually developed many of the ideas himself. In some ways, it made studying acupuncture much easier. On the down side, while hundreds studied with him only a few of us actually learned and developed the system to any point of sophistication. It's only been in the past several years while trying to seriously write, teach, and communicate with others not already familiar with those concepts, that the problem of common translation terms and explanation has become a problem and necessary to resolve. The exchanges with Ken and Will Morris' pulse diagnosis group go a long way to help develop a common ground to base it on.Z'ev: I have the same problem with the Hammer material. There is a glossary in the text of Dr. Shen's material, but, to be honest, many of the terms (such as "qi wild", "push pulse", or "nervous system weak", which doesn't even directly refer to the biomedical nervous system) while interesting, seem to be the product of Dr. Shen's limited English skills and Dr. Hammer's ability to interpret them. To propose such terms as standard terminology for a specific pulse system is problematic, because of the lack of reference to pinyin and Chinese characters in the text, and the idiosyncratic use of English biomedical terminology.Jim: Hammer studied and worked closely with Shen for at least 8 years; so, I doubt that Shen's limited English skills are the problem. I believe (I haven't studied their system with its creators) the Shen/Hammer pulse system is dramatically different enough to require new skills and new thinking---and, more importantly, to realize that reliance on the Chinese classical literature as the final authority is a serious limitation. The new problem for translation is that Shen (and Jing) are not simply repeating the same information from the past but creating new material, creating an innovation. Thinking the same way that past authors have will not sufficiently help in understanding Shen or Jing. Unfortunately, innovation is often a difficult process. It's not a matter of trust in the religious sense. All observations and clinical practice can and must be demonstrable and reproducible. I only took one class in the Shen/Hammer system but found that I could follow their line of thought without problem. The terms were not problematic and could be easily understood in relation to the actual examination of the pulses. And, in my own system, when I show students completely different types of pulses in their own patients and in each other, they can follow my idea and sense the pulse qualities about which I'm talking. The primary reference for both Shen and Jing is in the sensation of the pulse and, secondarily, in the interpretation.Z'ev: Correct translation is not a lightweight issue. It illuminates or obscures essential concepts and material. It is a great responsibility, because this is what is going to be taught and transmitted to a generation of students who will use these skills in their medical practice, on real-life patients. This is not just an intellectual debate.Jim: Well, there is an intellectual debate going on---primarily in regard to where meaning and authority reside in translation. No one (least of all me) ever doubted the importance of translation, but there are two divergent and competing translation styles---one where literal translation has been preferred (it seems up to now), and the other a more literary translation. I first got caught up in this debate regarding translation styles in college; and it wasn't resolved there either (perhaps it has something to do with the side of the brain which is dominant). People have always worked from the style they thought appropriate; which is why new translations are always written. In our profession, clinical effectiveness should be the final arbiter for meaning and authority.Jim RamholzChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

OK if the word 'classical' bothers you so much, replace it with Chinese

medical literature, whether classical or modern. Chinese medical

literature is the authority, because there has been relatively little

material translated into English, and only a percentage of that is of

high quality. Many original English works 'make stuff up', much of it

without grounding in the discipline itself. Chinese medicine is much

more established in Asian countries, our tradition is very young.

 

Contrast this with the Japanese acupuncture and Kanpo traditions. Both

have many unique qualities, but were developed by Japanese who had full

access to Chinese medical literature. We cannot say this about

Westerners studying Chinese medicine.

 

I enjoy certain aspects of the Hammer text, especially his clinical

experience with pulses. However, his credo of 'non-reliance on the

classical literature' is suspicious, because of his lack of access to

it. He only lists a few English language texts in his bibliography, and

no Chinese work. Without adequate source material, one ends up

inventing material which may or may not be valid. Hit or miss.

 

 

 

On Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 06:57 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> and, more

> importantly, to realize that reliance on the Chinese classical

> literature as the final authority is a serious limitation.

> >>>That is one of Leon's major points

> Alon

>

> -

> jramholz

>

> Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:19 PM

> Re: Flow or Connection?

[Guest guest]

I don't see how 'nervous system' pulse can be a useful description if it

is not talking about the actual nervous system. It may be clear to you,

but try teaching it to a class of forty students.

 

 

On Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 06:59 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> The terms were not

> problematic and could be easily understood in relation to the actual

> examination of the pulses.

> >>>I agree many of shens names are more descriptive than any

> " traditional " source I have ever read or learned from

> Alon

>

[Guest guest]

On Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 06:25 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

>

> >>>>>That may be a limitation in their communication but the principle

> of either creating terms and conditions such as Qi wild, or choosing

> terms in translation all depend on proper description. If the

> description is provided their is no problem.

 

The problem is that some of these are original terms ( " nervous system " ,

" push pulse " ), some are not ( " qi wild " somewhat derived from " san

mai " /scattered pulse). More confusion, more terms for students to

learn, more fragmentation of communication between practitioners.

>  

> Shen's limited English skills and Dr. Hammer's ability to intepret them

> >>>Z've do you know this to be true or just because his explanation in

> the book is poor? which bothers me as well

> Alon

>

This is what I've heard. This does not diminish the tremendous respect

I have for Dr. Shen's clinical skills.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote: Without adequate source material, one ends up inventing

material which may or may not be valid. Hit or miss.

 

 

 

Z'ev:

 

This is the crux of our differing perspectives. In my mind,

contemporary practice is required to verify and validate past

practices; not the other way around. How else can we know the value

of the past, and permit innovation to occur?

 

The problem of the lack of translated material, while significant,

is not insurmountable as you seem to suggest. The evidence is that

sufficient theory has been translated to make acupuncture practice

mainstream because of its effectiveness (not perfection) in America.

Should we translate and expand our knowledge of past medical

literature---of course. But with all the diversse opinions, lacuna,

and controversy in the medical literature, it is less than the ideal

for which you hope.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote: The problem is that some of these are original terms

( " nervous system " , " push pulse " ), some are not ( " qi wild " somewhat

derived from " san mai " /scattered pulse). More confusion, more terms

for students to learn, more fragmentation of communication between

practitioners.

 

 

A few new terms are problematic? And this is coming from a guy that

wants to translate all of Chinese medical literature and make

students learn the language?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

I think you have some assumptions here that are not accurate.

 

1) I wrote about the accuracy of " nervous system " pulse in a previous

posting. If this pulse is not describing the nervous system, why call

it that? It just creates confusion.

 

2) There is nothing wrong with proposing new terms, or sharing new

discoveries from one's practice or teacher. Promoting them as part of a

complete system of diagnosis is.

 

3) There are many degrees of 'learning a language', Jim. My own

knowledge of medical Chinese has a long way to go. But even a little

knowledge (of medical Chinese) on the part of a student can go far in

increasing comprehension of the medicine. My experience and that of many

of my students and colleagues confirms this.

 

4) Translating all the CM literature is not going to happen, only a

small piece in our lifetime. Hopefully, a few of us will get enough

Chinese to read some of it in the original. I agree with you that

learning the characters for Chinese medicinals is a good way to go, or

enough Chinese to read CM textbooks. I have enough Chinese to navigate

the ben cao/materia medica literature, which has been quite useful for

me.

 

 

 

 

On Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 08:39 PM, jramholz wrote:

 

> , " " <zrosenbe@s...>

> wrote: The problem is that some of these are original terms

> ( " nervous system " , " push pulse " ), some are not ( " qi wild " somewhat

> derived from " san mai " /scattered pulse).  More confusion, more terms

> for students to learn, more fragmentation of communication between

> practitioners.

>

>

> A few new terms are problematic? And this is coming from a guy that

> wants to translate all of Chinese medical literature and make

> students learn the language?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I must confess, I haven't yet had a chance to look at Dr. Hammer's

pulse book. However, I have had discussions with Dr. Shen and have

spent some time looking at his teachings and his treatments of

patients I sent him over the years. My experience is that, for the

most part, Dr. Shen did use standard Chinese medical terminology when

speaking and writing in Chinese. My experience is also that he knew

the premodern literature very well and was very much influenced by

the Jin-Yuan dynasty schools of thought.

 

For example, from what I know, " qi wild " is Dr. Shen's translation of

the Chinese term qi4 luan3. I cannot find qi luan in Wiseman & Feng

Ye's Practical Dictionary, nor do I find the term luan3 by itself.

However, in Wiseman's English-Chinese Chinese-English Dictionary

(1995), luan3 is translated as " deranged, chaotic. " When I translate

the term qi luan, I usually use qi chaos. Qi chaos is a term found in

the Pi Wei Lun, is a common idea in Li-Zhu medicine, is the result of

counterflow, and, is, as a clinical reality, consequently associated

with a number of the floating pulses. Therefore, IMO, knowing the

standard terminology for these terms does help explain and provide

context to what they mean in clinical practice.

 

Bob

 

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> Z'ev.....

>

> Dr. Shen used basic terms to describe phenomena in elegantly clear

fashion.

> He would describe the pulse as a pump, some tubes, and the fluid in

the

> tubes. To this I would add the ground substance in which these tubes

lay.

>

> There are many qualities conveyed in this system that have distinct

clinical

> significance - such as the Yu2 pulse for what Dr. Hammer calls

'cotten'.

> (This is the only pulse conversation in my experience which deals

with the

> perception of the tissues surrounding the vessels. The Drs. describe

it as

> stagnation of Wei Qi.)

>

> The 'Qi Wild' pulse is a grouping of pulses that may portend

critical

> critical states and the San (Scattered) pulse is one of them. The

diagnosis

> 'Qi Wild' mandates a visual confirmation with respect to the eyes

(they are

> somewhat crazed). The primary feature according to Dr. Shen is that

the pulse

> lacks root at the depth. Dr. Hammer includes all life threatening

images such

> a serious arrhythmias in this class.

>

> A 'nervous system' pulse is none other than a wiry pulse, usually in

the Qi

> depth

> (the same as a Du channel pulse). This is not a new term, rather -

it is a

> repackaging of an old term that is part of Dr. Shen's commitment to

> communicating with patients and physicians in the West. This and Dr.

Hammer's

> commitment to rendering something that is sensible in English tends

to

> validate your concerns over the communication rigors between Drs.

Shen and

> Hammer.

>

> This tome, about which a good friend of mine and Dr. Hammer's stated

" it's

> good to have something that will stop a . 38 caliber bullet, " will

be the

> source of many conversations to come. I don't think we can write it

under the

> table on the basis of it's weaknesses (a work of this magnitude is

bound to

> have them).

>

> This text was designed to be used in conjunction with teaching by

individuals

> who have received a direct transmission of experience. I think the

inability

> to teach this material to large groups is not an argument against

the system.

> It seems difficult to teach when the group size gets over fifteen.

>

> Will

>

> In a message dated 1/13/02 7:39:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> zrosenbe@s... writes:

>

>

> > The problem is that some of these are original terms ( " nervous

system " ,

> > " push pulse " ), some are not ( " qi wild " somewhat derived from " san

> > mai " /scattered pulse). More confusion, more terms for students to

> > learn, more fragmentation of communication between practitioners.

> >

>

>

> <<I don't see how 'nervous system' pulse can be a useful description

if it

> is not talking about the actual nervous system. It may be clear to

you,

> but try teaching it to a class of forty students.>>

[Guest guest]

When I first read about the " qi wild " pulse in a magazine article on the

Hammer system a few years ago, I tried to look it up right away. I

couldn't find it in the Clinical Dictionary, but I did find luan3 in the

Wiseman English-Chinese Chinese-English Dictionary, and assumed that was

what Dr. Hammer was talking about. I also connected it with Chace and

Shou-zhong's translation of the term " chaotic qi " as used in their Jia

Yi Jing/Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion. However, the

average student is not going to be able to make this connection, beyond

the glossary in the Hammer pulse book. Why should it be a problem to

remove the guesswork for students and practitioners who would like to

understand these concepts correctly and use them? A standard

terminology helps, I agree.

 

 

On Monday, January 14, 2002, at 08:34 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote:

 

> I must confess, I haven't yet had a chance to look at Dr. Hammer's

> pulse book. However, I have had discussions with Dr. Shen and have

> spent some time looking at his teachings and his treatments of

> patients I sent him over the years. My experience is that, for the

> most part, Dr. Shen did use standard Chinese medical terminology when

> speaking and writing in Chinese. My experience is also that he knew

> the premodern literature very well and was very much influenced by

> the Jin-Yuan dynasty schools of thought.

>

> For example, from what I know, " qi wild " is Dr. Shen's translation of

> the Chinese term qi4 luan3. I cannot find qi luan in Wiseman & Feng

> Ye's Practical Dictionary, nor do I find the term luan3 by itself.

> However, in Wiseman's English-Chinese Chinese-English Dictionary

> (1995), luan3 is translated as " deranged, chaotic. " When I translate

> the term qi luan, I usually use qi chaos. Qi chaos is a term found in

> the Pi Wei Lun, is a common idea in Li-Zhu medicine, is the result of

> counterflow, and, is, as a clinical reality, consequently associated

> with a number of the floating pulses. Therefore, IMO, knowing the

> standard terminology for these terms does help explain and provide

> context to what they mean in clinical practice.

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

Whatever my personal opinion on this subject, I believe even those I disagree with stand behind their positions with integrity.

 

 

 

>>I do not question anyone's integrity. I only wander about usefulness of translated materials for clinicians, as this is my only bottom line. As I have argued from the start, before this topic, there seems to be a divorce in this profession between useful, proven, tested, material and the need to 1. translate all that can be translated, 2. Making the "correctness" of translation an issue that may or not be material at all times. and 3. lack of critical input into translations and clinical guide type books (which to me is probably the most bothersome question).

Talking about, the almost mystic Chinese language as pertains to medicine, and suggesting that one can only understand the medicine if one can read the satellites of characters is another thing. I will again state that I would like to see more evidence for this

Alon

 

 

-

1

Sunday, January 13, 2002 6:58 PM

Re: Flow or Connection?

, "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> I don't see where Ken or anyone else is creating lingo for the sake of lingo, Alon. I see the attempt to find as accurate a reflection of the Chinese medical literature as possible> >>>That is highly debatableAlon,You can't be serious. Ken is clearly arguing his position on what he believes constitutes clear, useful translation methodology. There are clearly contending viewpoints on this list regarding this topic, but I do not believe anyone has any motive other than what they believe is correct, including you. Those who promote the Wiseman standards are hardly the arbiters or controllers of correct speech in our field. Books written using the Wiseman terminology (mainly Blue Poppy and Paradigm) are not the primary basic textbooks at any TCM school of which I am aware. This is largely due to licensing exams being designed around other texts that were published first. The fact the bulk of classical translations and advanced TCM internal medicine texts DO use Wiseman terminology is fairly telling, though. The majority of those doing this advanced level transmission has freely chosen to use this method. Since these are the people who actually read Chinese, perhaps they have some insight that the rest of us lack. Any of these upper level texts could have been published by companies using other methods of translation. No one's arm was twisted. Whatever my personal opinion on this subject, I believe even those I disagree with stand behind their positions with integrity. As you know, I have high regard for the work of many who use methods of translation other than Wiseman (Bensky, Clavey, Liu, for example).ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Many original English works 'make stuff up', much of it without grounding in the discipline itself. Chinese medicine is much more established in Asian countries, our tradition is very young. >>>>>Perhaps but that does not make Chinese literature not "make stuff up" which at least as pertains to modern publication, I believe replete with Make Stuff Up

Alon

 

-

 

Sunday, January 13, 2002 7:25 PM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

OK if the word 'classical' bothers you so much, replace it with Chinese medical literature, whether classical or modern. Chinese medical literature is the authority, because there has been relatively little material translated into English, and only a percentage of that is of high quality. Many original English works 'make stuff up', much of it without grounding in the discipline itself. Chinese medicine is much more established in Asian countries, our tradition is very young. Contrast this with the Japanese acupuncture and Kanpo traditions. Both have many unique qualities, but were developed by Japanese who had full access to Chinese medical literature. We cannot say this about Westerners studying Chinese medicine.I enjoy certain aspects of the Hammer text, especially his clinical experience with pulses. However, his credo of 'non-reliance on the classical literature' is suspicious, because of his lack of access to it. He only lists a few English language texts in his bibliography, and no Chinese work. Without adequate source material, one ends up inventing material which may or may not be valid. Hit or miss.On Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 06:57 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

and, moreimportantly, to realize that reliance on the Chinese classicalliterature as the final authority is a serious limitation.>>>That is one of Leon's major pointsAlon-jramholz Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:19 PM Re: Flow or Connection?

[Guest guest]

don't see how 'nervous system' pulse can be a useful description if it is not talking about the actual nervous system. It may be clear to you, but try teaching it to a class of forty students.>>I was talking about sensation of pulses not interpretations. Shen however has formulas for each of these pulses

Alon

 

-

 

Sunday, January 13, 2002 7:40 PM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

I don't see how 'nervous system' pulse can be a useful description if it is not talking about the actual nervous system. It may be clear to you, but try teaching it to a class of forty students.On Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 06:59 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

The terms were notproblematic and could be easily understood in relation to the actualexamination of the pulses.>>>I agree many of shens names are more descriptive than any "traditional" source I have ever read or learned fromAlon

[Guest guest]

The problem is that some of these are original terms ("nervous system", "push pulse"), some are not ("qi wild" somewhat derived from "san mai"/scattered pulse). More confusion, more terms for students to learn, more fragmentation of communication between practitioners

>>>Z've I agree in general, except for from what I understand from limited discussions I have had with Leon many of these terms, systems and description are new and reflect modern western patients.

Alon

 

-

 

Sunday, January 13, 2002 7:44 PM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

On Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 06:25 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

>>>>>That may be a limitation in their communication but the principle of either creating terms and conditions such as Qi wild, or choosing terms in translation all depend on proper description. If the description is provided their is no problem.The problem is that some of these are original terms ("nervous system", "push pulse"), some are not ("qi wild" somewhat derived from "san mai"/scattered pulse). More confusion, more terms for students to learn, more fragmentation of communication between practitioners.

Shen's limited English skills and Dr. Hammer's ability to intepret them>>>Z've do you know this to be true or just because his explanation in the book is poor? which bothers me as wellAlonThis is what I've heard. This does not diminish the tremendous respect I have for Dr. Shen's clinical skills.

[Guest guest]

Dr. Shen used basic terms to describe phenomena in elegantly clear fashion. He would describe the pulse as a pump, some tubes, and the fluid in the tubes. To this I would add the ground substance in which these tubes lay

 

Ken,

>>>I have tried to ask Leon question precisely on these aspects but was unable to get anywhere.

Alon

 

-

WMorris116

Sunday, January 13, 2002 8:57 PM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

Z'ev..... Dr. Shen used basic terms to describe phenomena in elegantly clear fashion. He would describe the pulse as a pump, some tubes, and the fluid in the tubes. To this I would add the ground substance in which these tubes lay. There are many qualities conveyed in this system that have distinct clinical significance - such as the Yu2 pulse for what Dr. Hammer calls 'cotten'. (This is the only pulse conversation in my experience which deals with the perception of the tissues surrounding the vessels. The Drs. describe it as stagnation of Wei Qi.) The 'Qi Wild' pulse is a grouping of pulses that may portend critical critical states and the San (Scattered) pulse is one of them. The diagnosis 'Qi Wild' mandates a visual confirmation with respect to the eyes (they are somewhat crazed). The primary feature according to Dr. Shen is that the pulse lacks root at the depth. Dr. Hammer includes all life threatening images such a serious arrhythmias in this class. A 'nervous system' pulse is none other than a wiry pulse, usually in the Qi depth (the same as a Du channel pulse). This is not a new term, rather - it is a repackaging of an old term that is part of Dr. Shen's commitment to communicating with patients and physicians in the West. This and Dr. Hammer's commitment to rendering something that is sensible in English tends to validate your concerns over the communication rigors between Drs. Shen and Hammer. This tome, about which a good friend of mine and Dr. Hammer's stated "it's good to have something that will stop a . 38 caliber bullet," will be the source of many conversations to come. I don't think we can write it under the table on the basis of it's weaknesses (a work of this magnitude is bound to have them). This text was designed to be used in conjunction with teaching by individuals who have received a direct transmission of experience. I think the inability to teach this material to large groups is not an argument against the system. It seems difficult to teach when the group size gets over fifteen. Will In a message dated 1/13/02 7:39:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, zrosenbe writes:

The problem is that some of these are original terms ("nervous system", "push pulse"), some are not ("qi wild" somewhat derived from "san mai"/scattered pulse). More confusion, more terms for students to learn, more fragmentation of communication between practitioners. <<I don't see how 'nervous system' pulse can be a useful description if it is not talking about the actual nervous system. It may be clear to you, but try teaching it to a class of forty students.>> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

But even a little knowledge (of medical Chinese) on the part of a student can go far in increasing comprehension of the medicine

>>>Are you sure its not just a byproduct of being a serious student and not the Chinese it self

Alon

 

-

 

Sunday, January 13, 2002 10:32 PM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

I think you have some assumptions here that are not accurate.1) I wrote about the accuracy of "nervous system" pulse in a previous posting. If this pulse is not describing the nervous system, why call it that? It just creates confusion.2) There is nothing wrong with proposing new terms, or sharing new discoveries from one's practice or teacher. Promoting them as part of a complete system of diagnosis is.3) There are many degrees of 'learning a language', Jim. My own knowledge of medical Chinese has a long way to go. But even a little knowledge (of medical Chinese) on the part of a student can go far in increasing comprehension of the medicine. My experience and that of many of my students and colleagues confirms this.4) Translating all the CM literature is not going to happen, only a small piece in our lifetime. Hopefully, a few of us will get enough Chinese to read some of it in the original. I agree with you that learning the characters for Chinese medicinals is a good way to go, or enough Chinese to read CM textbooks. I have enough Chinese to navigate the ben cao/materia medica literature, which has been quite useful for me.On Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 08:39 PM, jramholz wrote:

, "" <zrosenbe@s...>wrote: The problem is that some of these are original terms("nervous system", "push pulse"), some are not ("qi wild" somewhatderived from "san mai"/scattered pulse). More confusion, more termsfor students to learn, more fragmentation of communication betweenpractitioners.A few new terms are problematic? And this is coming from a guy thatwants to translate all of Chinese medical literature and makestudents learn the language?Jim RamholzChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

When I translate the term qi luan, I usually use qi chaos. Qi chaos is a term found in the Pi Wei Lun, is a common idea in Li-Zhu medicine, is the result of counterflow, and, is, as a clinical reality, consequently associated with a number of the floating pulses. Therefore, IMO, knowing the standard terminology for these terms does help explain and provide context to what they mean in clinical practice.>>>>This explanation does fit Dr shens Qi Wild herbal formulas which tonify qi and move qi and blood, nourish yin, lower uprising and estringent, and clam the spirit .

Alon

 

-

pemachophel2001

Monday, January 14, 2002 8:34 AM

Re: Flow or Connection?

I must confess, I haven't yet had a chance to look at Dr. Hammer's pulse book. However, I have had discussions with Dr. Shen and have spent some time looking at his teachings and his treatments of patients I sent him over the years. My experience is that, for the most part, Dr. Shen did use standard Chinese medical terminology when speaking and writing in Chinese. My experience is also that he knew the premodern literature very well and was very much influenced by the Jin-Yuan dynasty schools of thought. For example, from what I know, "qi wild" is Dr. Shen's translation of the Chinese term qi4 luan3. I cannot find qi luan in Wiseman & Feng Ye's Practical Dictionary, nor do I find the term luan3 by itself. However, in Wiseman's English-Chinese Chinese-English Dictionary (1995), luan3 is translated as "deranged, chaotic." When I translate the term qi luan, I usually use qi chaos. Qi chaos is a term found in the Pi Wei Lun, is a common idea in Li-Zhu medicine, is the result of counterflow, and, is, as a clinical reality, consequently associated with a number of the floating pulses. Therefore, IMO, knowing the standard terminology for these terms does help explain and provide context to what they mean in clinical practice.Bob, WMorris116@A... wrote:> Z'ev.....> > Dr. Shen used basic terms to describe phenomena in elegantly clear fashion. > He would describe the pulse as a pump, some tubes, and the fluid in the > tubes. To this I would add the ground substance in which these tubes lay.> > There are many qualities conveyed in this system that have distinct clinical > significance - such as the Yu2 pulse for what Dr. Hammer calls 'cotten'. > (This is the only pulse conversation in my experience which deals with the > perception of the tissues surrounding the vessels. The Drs. describe it as > stagnation of Wei Qi.)> > The 'Qi Wild' pulse is a grouping of pulses that may portend critical > critical states and the San (Scattered) pulse is one of them. The diagnosis > 'Qi Wild' mandates a visual confirmation with respect to the eyes (they are > somewhat crazed). The primary feature according to Dr. Shen is that the pulse > lacks root at the depth. Dr. Hammer includes all life threatening images such > a serious arrhythmias in this class.> > A 'nervous system' pulse is none other than a wiry pulse, usually in the Qi > depth > (the same as a Du channel pulse). This is not a new term, rather - it is a > repackaging of an old term that is part of Dr. Shen's commitment to > communicating with patients and physicians in the West. This and Dr. Hammer's > commitment to rendering something that is sensible in English tends to > validate your concerns over the communication rigors between Drs. Shen and > Hammer. > > This tome, about which a good friend of mine and Dr. Hammer's stated "it's > good to have something that will stop a . 38 caliber bullet," will be the > source of many conversations to come. I don't think we can write it under the > table on the basis of it's weaknesses (a work of this magnitude is bound to > have them). > > This text was designed to be used in conjunction with teaching by individuals > who have received a direct transmission of experience. I think the inability > to teach this material to large groups is not an argument against the system. > It seems difficult to teach when the group size gets over fifteen.> > Will> > In a message dated 1/13/02 7:39:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, > zrosenbe@s... writes:> > > > The problem is that some of these are original terms ("nervous system", > > "push pulse"), some are not ("qi wild" somewhat derived from "san > > mai"/scattered pulse). More confusion, more terms for students to > > learn, more fragmentation of communication between practitioners.> > > > > <<I don't see how 'nervous system' pulse can be a useful description if it > is not talking about the actual nervous system. It may be clear to you, > but try teaching it to a class of forty students.>>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

All,

 

Here are the last two responses from Chinese sources about tong1. I

said I would post these responses; this completes that commitment on

my part.

 

Dr. Lu Gang, coauthor of The Treatment of Disease in TCM (along with

Philippe Sionneau), is a professor of acupuncture at the CM college in

Wuhan. He says, very emphatically, that he would never translate tong1

as communcate or connect in the context of pain. His choice is

definitely free flow.

 

Dr. Shuai Xue-zhong is a professor at the Hunan College of Chinese

Medicine in Changsha. In his teaching, he specializes in CM

terminology and English. For instance, he is author of Chinese-English

Terminology of Traditional (1983). Dr. Shuai's

opinion is that, in a narrow sense, free flow is an ok translation for

tong1 vis a vis pain. However, in a larger sense, if by connection and

communication, one means " in normal functioning order, " then these

terms might also be considered ok in relationship to pain. Dr. Shuai

felt that a full exposition of this would require an entire thesis.

 

Bob

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> When I first read about the " qi wild " pulse in a magazine article on

the

> Hammer system a few years ago, I tried to look it up right away. I

> couldn't find it in the Clinical Dictionary, but I did find luan3 in

the

> Wiseman English-Chinese Chinese-English Dictionary, and assumed that

was

> what Dr. Hammer was talking about. I also connected it with Chace

and

> Shou-zhong's translation of the term " chaotic qi " as used in their

Jia

> Yi Jing/Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion. However,

the

> average student is not going to be able to make this connection,

beyond

> the glossary in the Hammer pulse book. Why should it be a problem

to

> remove the guesswork for students and practitioners who would like

to

> understand these concepts correctly and use them? A standard

> terminology helps, I agree.

>

>

> On Monday, January 14, 2002, at 08:34 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> > I must confess, I haven't yet had a chance to look at Dr. Hammer's

> > pulse book. However, I have had discussions with Dr. Shen and have

> > spent some time looking at his teachings and his treatments of

> > patients I sent him over the years. My experience is that, for the

> > most part, Dr. Shen did use standard Chinese medical terminology

when

> > speaking and writing in Chinese. My experience is also that he

knew

> > the premodern literature very well and was very much influenced by

> > the Jin-Yuan dynasty schools of thought.

> >

> > For example, from what I know, " qi wild " is Dr. Shen's translation

of

> > the Chinese term qi4 luan3. I cannot find qi luan in Wiseman &

Feng

> > Ye's Practical Dictionary, nor do I find the term luan3 by itself.

> > However, in Wiseman's English-Chinese Chinese-English Dictionary

> > (1995), luan3 is translated as " deranged, chaotic. " When I

translate

> > the term qi luan, I usually use qi chaos. Qi chaos is a term found

in

> > the Pi Wei Lun, is a common idea in Li-Zhu medicine, is the result

of

> > counterflow, and, is, as a clinical reality, consequently

associated

> > with a number of the floating pulses. Therefore, IMO, knowing the

> > standard terminology for these terms does help explain and provide

> > context to what they mean in clinical practice.

> >

> > Bob

> >

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

> >>I do not question anyone's integrity.

 

Yes you do. Not only do you question people's

integrity, you dismiss their discussions as

masturbation, you dismiss people as elitist,

and dismiss the whole subject as unnecessary.

Perhaps we should all be conditioned by now

to simply edit or filter what you have to

say giving allowance for your self-professed

poor language skills...although there was

not such forbearancedisplayed in this forum

for a chatty Taiwanese nurse.

 

Since you have made it clear that you failed

to gain anything of substantial benefit from

your study ofChinese medical language, which

is why you gave up the study and now characterize

it as being an economically unwise investment

of time and effort, it is quite easy to take

everything you say on the subject with a grain

of salt.

 

But please don't now assert that you do

not question anyone's integrity when you

have been so entirely dismissive of others

and their integrity.

 

I only wander about usefulness of translated materials for

clinicians, as this is my only bottom line. As I have argued from the

start, before this topic, there seems to be a divorce in this

profession between useful, proven, tested, material and the need to

1. translate all that can be translated, 2. Making the " correctness "

of translation an issue that may or not be material at all times. and

3. lack of critical input into translations and clinical guide type

books (which to me is probably the most bothersome question).

> Talking about, the almost mystic Chinese language as pertains to

medicine, and suggesting that one can only understand the medicine if

one can read the satellites of characters is another thing. I will

again state that I would like to see more evidence for this

 

I don't have the slightest idea of precisely

what you mean by " the satellites of characters "

but I understand that remark as another flip

attempt to dismiss the relevance of understanding

Chinese in the education of Chinese medical

personnel. You've already stated that

reading the evidence, which we presented in

our book to support the position that there

are, indeed, substantial benefits to be gained

from the study and understanding of Chinese

medical language, culture, philosophy, etc.,

had no effect for you. I accept that there

is nothing that I can say or offer in the

way of further evidence that might succeed

where Who Can Ride the Dragon did not in your

case.

 

But the evidence is all around you, and if

you do want to see it, all you need to do

is open your eyes and look.

 

For thousands of years now, Chinese medicine

has been transmitted from one generation

to the next through the various mechanisms

and vehicles available in the Chinese language.

The survival of the subject thus testifies

most convincingly of the effectiveness of

that language to transmit that knowledge

base. And if you look throughout Asia where

Chinese medicine has been adopted by and

adapted to local people in areas outside

of China, you will find that these people

have tended to rely upon the proven efficacy

of Chinese as a primary vehicle for their

own reception and transmission of the

subject. They have built their own

innovations on a firm foundation of

Chinese langauge sources.

 

Only in the West and only rather recently

has the experiment been attempted by a

growing number of people to implement

Chinese medicine without such a strong

foundation.

 

Will it work?

 

It is far too soon to tell.

 

Ken