control mechanisms

[Guest guest]

with syndrome X it is more insulin resistance. Also I think many of the tonics have more effect in animal studies than in the clinic.

Alon

 

-

 

Thursday, May 31, 2001 9:32 PM

Re: control mechanisms

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> > Since over-weight and over consumption of simple sugars are thought to be the underlying issue, as well as under activity. One has to think of Spleen function. Also since these patients often have increased lipids and slippery pulses at their middle depth one as to think of heat and phlegm. Clinically one often blood stasis, liver heat etc. > > In myexperience short of diet control and exercise other interversion including herbs are of secondary importance and rarely sufficient to control the lipids and insulin resistance in these patients> > AlonI agree with Alon's pattern analysis and assessment when it comes to obese type 2 diabetics, but if lower level insulin abnormalities are involved in aging for all people, then herbs may be useful in addition to diet and exercise for longevity in these cases. It is certainly interesting how many important tonics affect blood sugar (shu di, huang qi, ren shen, zhi mu, mai dong, xuan shen)Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I have seen these studies but also tried to replicate on several patients without great results. So I think it is too early to draw conclusions

Alon

 

-

wsheir

Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:54 PM

Re: control mechanisms

Don't forget the likely effects of Xi Yang Shen on blood sugar levels as evidenced by recent studues. See links below:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgicmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=10977009 & dopt=Abstracthttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgicmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=11273850 & dopt=Abstracthttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=11273850 & dopt=AbstractIn , @i... wrote:> , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> > > > > Since over-weight and over consumption of simple sugars are thought to be the underlying issue, as well as under activity. One has to think of Spleen function. Also since these patients often have increased lipids and slippery pulses at their middle depth one as to think of heat and phlegm. Clinically one often blood stasis, liver heat etc. > > > > In myexperience short of diet control and exercise other interversion including herbs are of secondary importance and rarely sufficient to control the lipids and insulin resistance in these patients> > > > Alon> > I agree with Alon's pattern analysis and assessment when it comes to > obese type 2 diabetics, but if lower level insulin abnormalities are > involved in aging for all people, then herbs may be useful in addition > to diet and exercise for longevity in these cases. It is certainly > interesting how many important tonics affect blood sugar (shu di, huang > qi, ren shen, zhi mu, mai dong, xuan shen)> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Will someone please tell me what this thread has to do with Chinese herbal medicine? I've lost the plot here.

 

 

On Friday, June 1, 2001, at 08:42 AM, (AT) inetarena (DOT) com wrote:

 

 

> , gowatson@a... wrote:

>

> >

>

> > GH release is normally triggered during the sleep phase called Short

> > Wave Sleep (SWS) and has been shown to be related to Melatonin

> > release and progressively inhibited by rising levels of Insulin.

>

>

> It is interesting to note that the common syndromeof hypoglycemia may

> involve increased insulin, while many type 2 diabetics actually also

> have increased insulin, but high tissue resistance as well.  It is

> incorrectly assumed that diabetes usually involves low insulin,

> especially in early to mid stage type 2.  However, those diabetics with

> truly low insulin certainly do not seem to be in better health. 

> Paradox or is some middle ground actually ideal?

>

> todd

>

>

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree, Alon.

 

These studies are preliminary, and we should not jump to conclusions that influence our practice. This is no better than speculation.

 

 

On Friday, June 1, 2001, at 09:18 AM, <alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) net> wrote:

 

 

> I have seen these studies but also tried to replicate on several patients without great results. So I think it is too early to draw conclusions

> Alon

>

> -

> wsheir (AT) aol (DOT) com

>

> Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:54 PM

> Re: control mechanisms

>

>

> Don't forget the likely effects of Xi Yang Shen  on blood sugar

> levels as evidenced by recent studues. See links below:

>

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

> cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=10977009 & dopt=Abstract

>

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

> cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=11273850 & dopt=Abstract

>

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=11273850 & dopt=Abstract

>

>

> In , @i... wrote:

> > , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> >

>

> > >

> > > Since over-weight and over consumption of simple sugars are

> thought to be the underlying issue, as well as under activity. One

> has to think of Spleen function. Also since these patients often have

> increased lipids and slippery pulses at their middle depth one as to

> think of heat and phlegm. Clinically one often blood stasis, liver

> heat etc.

> > >

> > > In myexperience short of diet control and exercise other

> interversion including herbs are of secondary importance and rarely

> sufficient to control the lipids and insulin resistance in these

> patients

> > >

> > > Alon

> >

>

> > I agree with Alon's pattern analysis and assessment when it comes

> to

> > obese type 2 diabetics, but if lower level insulin abnormalities

> are

> > involved in aging for all people, then herbs may be useful in

> addition

> > to diet and exercise for longevity in these cases.  It is certainly

> > interesting how many important tonics affect blood sugar (shu di,

> huang

> > qi, ren shen, zhi mu, mai dong, xuan shen)

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Will someone please tell me what this thread has to do with

Chinese

> herbal medicine? I've lost the plot here.

 

the topic of biochemical effects of herbs, the related physiology

and the discussion of other natural substances that may be

understood from a TCM perspective as a result of the interplay

between these topics is

 

1. a mission of this group from day one

 

2. a personal interest of mine

 

I also disagree with Zev about the speculative nature of this

information and that we should avoid it influencing our practices.

I could say the same thing about TCM descriptions of western

drugs. some people may not like it, but TCM is an integrated

eastern/western medicine in modern china. People are free to

practice it as if western science does not exist. I choose

otherwise and this discussion should proceed freely.

 

[Guest guest]

On Friday, June 1, 2001, at 11:28 AM, (AT) inetarena (DOT) com wrote:

 

 

> ,

> <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> > Will someone please tell me what this thread has to do with

> Chinese

> > herbal medicine?  I've lost the plot here.

>

>

the topic of biochemical effects of herbs, the related physiology

and the discussion of other natural substances that may be

understood from a TCM perspective as a result of the interplay

between these topics is

 

1.  a mission of this group from day one

 

 

2.  a personal interest of mine

 

 

You still haven't explained what that particular thread has to do with anything that pertains to Chinese herbal medicine. I wasn't questioning what you have said below. What does that thread have to do with the overall subject matter of this group?

 

I also disagree with Zev about the speculative nature of this

information and that we should avoid it influencing our practices. 

I could say the same thing about TCM descriptions of western

drugs.  some people may not like it, but TCM is an integrated

eastern/western medicine in modern china.  People are free to

practice it as if western science does not exist.  I choose

otherwise and this discussion should proceed freely.

 

(Z'ev) It is speculative when a TCM practitioner uses xi yang shen to influence blood sugar levels in treating diabetes without a previous pattern diagnosis and treatment plan. And this kind of thing happens a lot more than you think, Todd. It is NOT speculative if one chooses not to use herbal medicinals that pharmacological studies indicate can be harmful in certain cases, such as avoiding certain supplemental medicinals in patients with high blood sugar levels.

 

There was a case history published in the ACTCM journal some years ago about a TCM physician who prescribed ban lan gen and da qing ye to a patient with a head cold who had a sputum test that showed a viral infection, based on research showing that these medicinals had an anti-viral effect. The patient worsened, developing a serious case of bronchitis with chill, copious sputum and wheezing. Another TCM physician analyzed the case, and gave him warming medicinals to expel cold phlegm from the lungs and applied moxa to back shu points, resolving the condition. The remarks on the case were that relying on pharmacological studies of herbs for treatment (like drugs) was erroneous in many cases, and was not a shortcut to the use of pattern diagnosis.

 

And, as I have pointed out, our access as a profession to Chinese medical literature is relatively elementary. Our foundations in the tradition are shaky, and certainly not up to the level that an 'integrative practitioner' such as Zhang Xi-chun would demand. Access to western scientific literature is much easier, in English and prevalent on the web. TCM literature and research is not, at least in English. Until medical Chinese is required, or more literature is translated, this plays into a bias that is not true integration. Too many conclusions have been drawn based on insufficient access to Chinese medical information. For example, if one reads the zhong yi ci dian/Great Dictionary of Chinese Medicinals, you will find 5000 medicinals listed there, all in much greater depth than anything in the English language. If one does in-depth research on a medicinal like xi yang-shen in the traditional literature, than one can have a much more informed view on what this medicinal actually does.

 

 

 

 

 

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

TCM is an integrated eastern/western medicine in modern china.

>>>>Totally

Alon

 

-

 

Friday, June 01, 2001 11:28 AM

Re: control mechanisms

, <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:> Will someone please tell me what this thread has to do with Chinese > herbal medicine? I've lost the plot here.the topic of biochemical effects of herbs, the related physiology and the discussion of other natural substances that may be understood from a TCM perspective as a result of the interplay between these topics is1. a mission of this group from day one2. a personal interest of mineI also disagree with Zev about the speculative nature of this information and that we should avoid it influencing our practices. I could say the same thing about TCM descriptions of western drugs. some people may not like it, but TCM is an integrated eastern/western medicine in modern china. People are free to practice it as if western science does not exist. I choose otherwise and this discussion should proceed freely.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Zev,

 

I

personally am interested in how others see insulin resistance correlating with

TCM syndromes from a diagnostic perspective. Further, from a therapeutic view, if someone has found

something that works in changing insulin resistance it might reflect back to a

relevant diagnosis. I speculate

that the pathogenesis of this condition may be triggered by lifestyle factors

that did not play an etiological role in historical China and may challenge the

parameters of TCM to address it effectively…not that it can’t be done. I’m sure you, like the rest of the TCM

community, is regularly challenged to translate western diagnoses into an

understanding of that condition from a TCM perspective. Is this any different?

 

Stephen

 

-----Original

Message-----

[zrosenbe]

Friday, June 01, 2001 12:50

PM

To:

 

Re:

Re: control mechanisms

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you,

Stephen. This answers my question. . . 'what is the thread of the post'? Good, to the point response. Thanks for putting it in perspective.

 

Z'ev

On Friday, June 1, 2001, at 01:44 PM, Stephen Morrissey wrote:

 

 

> Zev,

>

>  

>

> I personally am interested in how others see insulin resistance correlating with TCM syndromes from a diagnostic perspective. Further, from a therapeutic view, if someone has found something that works in changing insulin resistance it might reflect back to a relevant diagnosis. I speculate that the pathogenesis of this condition may be triggered by lifestyle factors that did not play an etiological role in historical China and may challenge the parameters of TCM to address it effectively…not that it can’t be done. I’m sure you, like the rest of the TCM community, is regularly challenged to translate western diagnoses into an understanding of that condition from a TCM perspective.  Is this any different? 

>

>  

>

> Stephen

>

>  

>

>

> [zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com]

> Friday, June 01, 2001 12:50 PM

>

> Re: Re: control mechanisms

>

>  

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

as we've done in the past, perhaps we need to agree that we disagree. I don't see a seamless integration that works automatically between biomedicine and Chinese medicine, even if 'that's what's being done in China'. I don't see that they shoehorn together so neatly and easily as people would like to think. I am personally more interested in the interface between Chinese medical theory and complexity theory myself. This is not to discourage yours or Todd's efforts in integrative medicine, I am just pessimistic about the trend. But I am watching it carefully. Carry on.

 

 

On Friday, June 1, 2001, at 01:32 PM, <alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) net> wrote:

 

 

> TCM is an integrated

> eastern/western medicine in modern china. 

> >>>>Totally

> Alon

>

> -

> (AT) inetarena (DOT) com

>

> Friday, June 01, 2001 11:28 AM

> Re: control mechanisms

>

> ,

> <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> > Will someone please tell me what this thread has to do with

> Chinese

> > herbal medicine?  I've lost the plot here.

>

> the topic of biochemical effects of herbs, the related physiology

> and the discussion of other natural substances that may be

> understood from a TCM perspective as a result of the interplay

> between these topics is

>

> 1.  a mission of this group from day one

>

> 2.  a personal interest of mine

>

> I also disagree with Zev about the speculative nature of this

> information and that we should avoid it influencing our practices. 

> I could say the same thing about TCM descriptions of western

> drugs.  some people may not like it, but TCM is an integrated

> eastern/western medicine in modern china.  People are free to

> practice it as if western science does not exist.  I choose

> otherwise and this discussion should proceed freely.

>

 

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi:

 

Interesting discussion - if anyone has the inclination, info about

Syndrome X - (what is it?)and " discussion and research into the blood

sugar regulating

> properties of chinese herbs " would be appreciated. I haven't

worked with people with blood sugar problems but have heard herbs are

very effective for them. If knowledgable people don't have time to

write, point me in the direction of some written material.

 

Also someone said that people should get their blood sugar at

youthful levels before working with hormones..... do you also think

this is true for menopausal hormone replacement therapy?

 

As Todd said, love the biomedical info - it doesn't have to all be

Chinese based to interest me.

 

Diane

[Guest guest]

Alon, Z'ev, Todd:

 

I think we need to keep watch on what the Chinese are doing in

integrating Western medicine with Oriental medicine---after all, they

came up with this stuff in the first place. And . . . we need to

explore an integrated perspective because our American patient

population participates in both systems.

 

While the practice of medicine in China can be said to be more

integrated, Western and Eastern ideas are at odds or fairly

incompatible theoretically. Unfortunately, the Wiseman dictionary is

limited in this respect because it doesn't include many Western

medical terms.

 

But there are areas of significant overlap beside the scientific

testing of Eastern medicine. There is an opportunity to view this

integration when we use 5-Phases and not TCM. For example, using 5-

Phases in pulse diagnosis we can examine the function of each organ

and their relationships in many of the same ways as does Western

medicine---besides determining if an organ is working within its

normal parameters, we can see pancreatic, adrenal, thyroid, and other

organ functions and relationships not found in typical TCM.

 

And, following your interest in complexity, only 5-Phases comes close

to describing dynamic self-organizing (living) systems; 8-Principles

is too mechanical a method and doesn't approach the required

definition of complexity.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, in America, only MDs may get the chance to fully

integrate the two in practice because they can practice both

unrestrictedly.

, <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Alon,

> as we've done in the past, perhaps we need to agree that we

disagree. I don't see a seamless integration that works

automatically between biomedicine and Chinese medicine, even

if 'that's what's being done in China'. I don't see that they

shoehorn together so neatly and easily as people would like to

think. I am personally more interested in the interface between

Chinese medical theory and complexity theory myself.

 

 

> This is not to discourage yours or Todd's efforts in integrative

> medicine, I am just pessimistic about the trend. But I am watching

it

> carefully. Carry on.

>

>

> On Friday, June 1, 2001, at 01:32 PM, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>

> > TCM is an integrated

> > eastern/western medicine in modern china.

> > >>>>Totally

> > Alon

[Guest guest]

But there are areas of significant overlap beside the scientific testing of Eastern medicine

>>>There has to be as both look at the same human body

Alon

[Guest guest]

, <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

 

 

> >

> the topic of biochemical effects of herbs, the related physiology

> and the discussion of other natural substances that may be

> understood from a TCM perspective as a result of the interplay

> between these topics is

>

 

>

>

> You still haven't explained what that particular thread has to do

> with anything that pertains to Chinese herbal medicine. I wasn't

> questioning what you have said below. What does that thread have to do with

(the topic of this group)?

 

 

 

Let me try and elaborate and clarify what I said above. I strongly

believe chinese medicine will NEVER be widely accepted and considered

clinically valid on its own terms. I do not believe the qi paradigm

will EVER replace the prevailing status quo understanding of the body.

I do believe western medicine will be based more and more on holistic

science as the century proceeds. Chinese medicine on one hand provides

insights into holisic relationships that can enhance western medicine,

including ideas gleaned from zang fu function, 8 principles and five

phases. And modern physiology provides explanations of how the body

works and how it is affected by herbs that can lend mainstream credence

to our traditional practices.

 

As Bob Felt has pointed out, quoting Unschuld, CM has not evolved and

advanced based upon a standard of clinical validity, but moreso because

of prevailing sociocultural factors. so ideas have been accepted not

necessarily because they work, but because they fit the time in which

they were introduced. and other ideas have fallen bythe wayside for

the opposite reason. they did not fit, even if they worked. for

example, I have teachers who feel even today that the shang han lun is

a complete system of medicine, yet wen bing theorists felt it was

inadequate and developed something new. Some have proposed that the

SHL failed in a time of epidemics, but some of my teachers said it was

the px who failed to make proper use of the SHL. the evidence does not

prove either ocrrect regarding efficacy, only that sociocultural

changes led to acceptance of the new developments.

 

 

 

>

> (Z'ev) It is speculative when a TCM practitioner uses xi yang shen to

> influence blood sugar levels in treating diabetes without a previous

> pattern diagnosis and treatment plan.

 

 

So if we know that growth hormone decline is related to aging and we

show that certain herbs can alter the GH levels and reverse the

decline, we have demonstrated something valuable. Of course,it would

be foolhardy to just use herbs willy nilly for this purpose. and

nothing I wrote suggests otherwise. One should always consider the TCM

pattern of paramount guiding importance. This is not in dispute by any

generation of chinese px. whatever else they may disagree upon, this

principle is unassailable (bian zheng lun zhi). However I see no

problem with selecting an herb that lowers blood sugar or increases

growth hormone release IF the pattern is correct. So xi yang shen may

be used for yin xu pt. with high blood sugar, perhaps, but bai he, also

good for LU/HT yin xu, would not be useful in achieving this goal. Now

one could argue that if bai he was chosen carefully according to its

signs and symptoms alone, you would never make this mistake. However,

the s/s of these two herbs have significant overlap. the fact is that

physiological effects of herbs are just one more observable sign which

can be considered WITH the whole pattern, not instead of it. Sure,

some px will use western data to the exclusion of TCM, but some will

also use pulse to the exclusion of s/s, a mistake just as dangerous, in

my opinion.

 

As for your ban lan gen example, I have seen endless carelessness with

the use of medicinals to treat infections on a kneejerk, " it must be

heat " or " lets use antivirals approach " . But I do not think taoist

observers of nature would exclude data because of its source, but would

fold it into their understanding of patterns. the chinese invented

much technology and some of it was used for medicine, such as the

chemical alteration of herb properties (pao zhi) and the production of

tools like needles. I am sure if they had invented the microscope or

MRI in ancient times,they would have used those, too. I don't think

TCM was considered finished in its development at any stage.

 

as for the discussion of amino acids, I perceive this as playing two

roles. One, these are natural substances that may be understandable

from a TCM perspective and thus we may be able to provide insight into

their use from a TCM pattern perspective. Sometimes they are very

effective and sometimes they have side effects. Understanding their

properties from TCM may lead to safer use for the restoration of growth

hormone and allow us to prescribe them based on zang fu. they are also

part of the process of validating TCM from a mainstream perspective.

We can use the understanding of this subject to aid our explanations of

what we do to a mainstream audience. Now, I know you (Z'ev) have said

on many occasions why should we do this at all. Why shouldn't we

validate modern medicine from a CM perspective instead? Well,of

course, we should, but I respectfully disagree that this latter process

will advance our cause. Paradigms shift when those working within the

" normal science " (kuhn's own words here) come up against a wall and

make a breakthrough. they do not shift by merely abandoning the

prevailing mode of science. Normal science must attempt to get a

handle upon TCM from its mode of knowing and in the process, a new

science may be born. this is where chaos theory and

psychoneuroimmunolgy came from. they were not introduced from outside.

 

finally, as I have noted several times in past months, there is a huge

amount of data in china now being translated that not only explains TCM

from a disease oriented perspective, but actually provides biochemical

and physiological foundations for pattern differentiation, as well. so

while blood sugar disturbances may occur in multiple patterns, there

are apparently other variables that are much more pattern specific,

such as 17-hydroxy corticosteroid excretion. A complete elucidation of

this modern trend in TCM research will enhance, not diminish our field.

Like the wen bing theorists, if this data is ALWAYS considered in the

context of the entire pattern, it will be an advance, not an

aberration. Remember, there are still many who consider Li dong Yuan

to be an aberration who hurt CM with his ideas and led to a Whole

school of people who treated all disease as sp/st patterns. should we

just dismiss him, too?

 

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> But there are areas of significant overlap beside the scientific

> testing of Eastern medicine

> >>>There has to be as both look at the same human body

> Alon

 

An often overlooked point.

 

[Guest guest]

-

<

 

Saturday, June 02, 2001 1:08 AM

Re: control mechanisms

 

 

> , gowatson@a... wrote:

> > , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>

> >

> > I'm 54 and have a IGF-1 of 325. A month off APGL dropped it to 230,

> > then a month back on APGL brought it back up again.

> >

>

>

> what sources or products do you use for APGL.

 

Hi

 

Beyond A Century hppt://www.beyond-a-century.com

 

Small family run company in Maine (I think). Good quality, good prices, good

service. Excellent company by any

measure.

 

Greg

[Guest guest]

-

<

 

Saturday, June 02, 2001 1:12 AM

Re: control mechanisms

 

 

> > GH release is normally triggered during the sleep phase called Short

> > Wave Sleep (SWS) and has been shown to be related to Melatonin

> > release and progressively inhibited by rising levels of Insulin.

>

>

> It is interesting to note that the common syndrome of hypoglycemia may

> involve increased insulin, while many type 2 diabetics actually also

> have increased insulin, but high tissue resistance as well. It is

> incorrectly assumed that diabetes usually involves low insulin,

> especially in early to mid stage type 2. However, those diabetics with

> truly low insulin certainly do not seem to be in better health.

> Paradox or is some middle ground actually ideal?

 

Hi

 

No not really a paradox, as nothing works in isolation. Low Insulin release can

result in higher than necessary levels

of blood glucose.

 

The target is low Insulin AND low insulin resistance AND excellent dynamic

glucose tolerance / control AND a lipid

profile which shows the liver is not producing more cholesterol than the body

needs.

 

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson,

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson

gowatson

[Guest guest]

As Bob Felt has pointed out, quoting Unschuld, CM has not evolved and advanced based upon a standard of clinical validity, but moreso because of prevailing sociocultural factors. so ideas have been accepted not necessarily because they work, but because they fit the time in which they were introduced.

>>>>I see we actually agree, this goes for the rest of the email.

One thing that for example TCM does not look at is that a medicine may actually have different affects on different individuals, because their personal metabolism, enzyme systems etc. This is an area that we need to start considering and that biomedicine has proven

Alon

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> Let me try and elaborate and clarify what I said above.  I strongly

> believe chinese medicine will NEVER be widely accepted and considered

> clinically valid on its own terms.  I do not believe the qi paradigm

> will EVER replace the prevailing status quo understanding of the body. 

>

>

No, it probably won't. . . .and, it probably won't disappear either. Why shouldn't it exist side by side with the prevailing status quo?

 

And why would anyone be interested in it if there wasn't the need for other approaches to understanding the body?

 

 

 

> As Bob Felt has pointed out, quoting Unschuld, CM has not evolved and

> advanced based upon a standard of clinical validity, but moreso because

> of prevailing sociocultural factors.  so ideas have been accepted not

> necessarily because they work, but because they fit the time in which

> they were introduced.  and other ideas have fallen bythe wayside for

> the opposite reason.  they did not fit, even if they worked. 

>

 

Unschuld is a brilliant man, but I would be cautious with this conclusion. There is a long tradition of clinical validity as a basis for continuity of information.

 

> for

> example, I have teachers who feel even today that the shang han lun is

> a complete system of medicine, yet wen bing theorists felt it was

> inadequate and developed something new.  Some have proposed that the

> SHL failed in a time of epidemics, but some of my teachers said it was

> the px who failed to make proper use of the SHL.  the evidence does not

> prove either ocrrect regarding efficacy, only that sociocultural

> changes led to acceptance of the new developments.

>

 

Human bias is an ongoing limitation of our consciousness. People become attached to perspectives and are loathe to leave them. Epidemics are great wake-up calls. They helped inspire bothe the SHL and Wen Bing traditions. But the warm disease school was designed not to replace, but to compliment and further develop the SHL. The SHL discusses warm disease, but not in great detail. The Wen Bing literature completes this shortcoming, and is entirely complimentary with the SHL.

 

Like in the Talmud, basic principles and laws are extrapolated upon over centuries, adding to the central corpus with different perspectives and points of view without ever losing the central core of the teachings. No matter what developments happen over time, yin and yang and the principles of Yi Jing and Nei Jing remain at the center of Chinese medicine.

 

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> I do not think taoist

> observers of nature would exclude data because of its source, but would

> fold it into their understanding of patterns.  the chinese invented

> much technology and some of it was used for medicine, such as the

> chemical alteration of herb properties (pao zhi) and the production of

> tools like needles.  I am sure if they had invented the microscope or

> MRI in ancient times,they would have used those, too.  I don't think

> TCM was considered finished in its development at any stage.

>

 

You are talking about two things here. . . .1) development of technology. No issue here. . . .the Chinese would examine data, no matter what the source, and new technology, no matter what the source. They have a history of flexibility and adaptability 2) theoretical constructs. This is much more problematic. . .as I have pointed out too many times to mention on this group site, the paradigms of CM and biomedicine are different in many aspects, similar in others. It would certainly be germane to examine these differences and similarities.

 

>

> as for the discussion of amino acids, I perceive this as playing two

> roles.  One, these are natural substances that may be understandable

> from a TCM perspective and thus we may be able to provide insight into

> their use from a TCM pattern perspective.  Sometimes they are very

> effective and sometimes they have side effects.  Understanding their

> properties from TCM may lead to safer use for the restoration of growth

> hormone and allow us to prescribe them based on zang fu.  they are also

> part of the process of validating TCM from a mainstream perspective. 

> We can use the understanding of this subject to aid our explanations of

> what we do to a mainstream audience.  Now, I know you (Z'ev) have said

> on many occasions why should we do this at all. 

>

 

This is more of a challenge than a refusal, Todd. Not many teachers or speakers can back up a lot of what they say. It is easy to try to 'validate TCM' from a biomedical perspective when you have a background in biomedicine,and your audience is somewhat familiar with biomedicine. Even lay people these days have a relatively broad background in this subject, thanks to media and the internet. It is much more difficult to find people with a broad background in both. . . it bias the presentation and the conclusions that are drawn. For example, it is very easily to conclude that the five movements/six qi principle of chronobiology is simply speculation. However, if we study texts from the tradition, such as Guan Zi's Si Shi/Four Seasons, we see that the principles are derived from a fairly sophisticated calendrical and mathematical series of calculations. There are no short cuts. . .we cannot draw conclusions on this material without adequate study and time. This simply has not been done on a large enough scale to draw fair, balanced conclusions on the validity of such material.

 

 

> Why shouldn't we

> validate modern medicine from a CM perspective instead?  Well,of

> course, we should, but I respectfully disagree that this latter process

> will advance our cause.

>

 

Why shouldn't it? We have more of an audience than you think for this stuff. John Holland, the complexity theorist with several books, in his introduction to a Chinese version of one of his texts, discusses the complexity of Chinese characters and the logical system imbedded therein.

 

 

 

>   Paradigms shift when those working within the

> "normal science"  (kuhn's own words here) come up against a wall and

> make a breakthrough.  they do not shift by merely abandoning the

> prevailing mode of science.  Normal science must attempt to get a

> handle upon TCM from its mode of knowing and in the process, a new

> science may be born.  this is where chaos theory and

> psychoneuroimmunolgy came from.  they were not introduced from outside.

>

 

Again, what makes modern science 'normal science?" Are the Chinese sciences, technologies and culture 'abnormal science'? What kind of meaningful dialogue can happen between cultures if one is considered to be inferior?

 

>

> finally, as I have noted several times in past months, there is a huge

> amount of data in china now being translated that not only explains TCM

> from a disease oriented perspective, but actually provides biochemical

> and physiological foundations for pattern differentiation, as well.  so

> while blood sugar disturbances may occur in multiple patterns, there

> are apparently other variables that are much more pattern specific,

> such as 17-hydroxy corticosteroid excretion.  A complete elucidation of

> this modern trend in TCM research will enhance, not diminish our field. 

> Like the wen bing theorists, if this data is ALWAYS considered in the

> context of the entire pattern, it will be an advance, not an

> aberration. 

>

 

I have no problem with that. . . I have seen very interesting discussions on kidney yang dynamics considered with 17-hydroxy corticosteroid excretion. There are good studies, and not so good studies. Some studies, however, leave bian zheng lun zhi in the dust.

 

 

> Remember, there are still many who consider Li dong Yuan

> to be an aberration who hurt CM with his ideas and led to a Whole

> school of people who treated all disease as sp/st patterns.  should we

> just dismiss him, too?

>

 

Again, perspectivism at work. We shouldn't dismiss anything.

 

Thanks for a stimulating discussion.

 

 

 

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