control mechanisms

[Guest guest]

Kind the beginning of some thoughts I have been having. Apologies in

advance who don't approve of this type of speculation.

 

I've been studying the effects of growth hormone recently. And the

research that I've been doing has let me consider some relationships

between kidney tonics and this hormone. I have specifically been

looking into the role of certain amino acids which are used by people

involved in the areas as diverse as body building or life extension in

order to induce the release of growth hormone, either for the purpose

of enlarging ones muscles or for the purpose of increasing a persons

youthfulness . Large doses of amino acids are thought to induce the

release of growth hormone probably by affecting control mechanisms,

rather than providing building blocks for the hormone itself. This has

led me to consider what it is that kidney tonics are actually doing when

we ingest them. The reason kidney yang and essence tonics came to mind

is because kidney tonics have been shown to have an effect of increasing

the amount of circulating growth hormone in the body. And because

research in China and indicates that kidney yang and essence tonics

exert their activity in the body by also affecting control mechanisms.

Though many of these herbs contain hormones like substances, the amount

that is absorbed into the body even when taken in the form of very high

dosage decoctions is on the order of 1000 times less than the amount of

the endogenous hormone that the body produces itself.

 

The substances (amino acids and kidney tonics) also have similar actions

upon the body as does the administration of growth hormone itself.

These include various changes associated with youth, such as increased

strength, better muscle tone, higher metabolism, increased sex drive,

etc. Growth hormone has become very popular therapy among the rich,

especially in Europe. It is also have been ignored following here in

the United States, as well. However it is extremely expensive, as a can

cost up to $10,000 per month. It is the shown to have rather remarkable

fax, but it also has the risk inherent in the use of any exogenous

hormone for an extended period of time. Because of this, growth hormone

releasing substances have become very popular in recent years. I

postulate that perhaps kidney tonics are more akin to growth hormone

releasing factors and other hormone releasing factors than they are to

some things like vitamins (this should not be confused with things like

TSH, a hormone itself. Releasing factors are substances derived from

food or herbs. Interestingly, the mechanism I'm proposing is similar to

the mechanism by which we understand the drug like Prozac works. In

fact, as I understand the modern Chinese research on the subject, this

is exactly how the mechanisms of these herbs is beginning to be

understood. This seemed to have various effects on the function of the

body, such as altering receptor activity or increasing the circulation

of certain substances in the bloodstream by inhibiting their reuptake.

They may also affect feedback mechanisms.

 

So in order for these herbs to affect the hormonal system it again is

not about providing building blocks for the body but actually affecting

the control mechanisms instead. One of the interesting thoughts that

comes up in connection with this idea is the whole way we tend to think

of the terms of supplementing and draining as if it is purely

quantitative. In other words, some thing is either added or removed

from the body. Now this thing may be something tangible like yin or

something less tangible like yang. But in either case it is definitely

thought of as something (by me) that is conceptualized quantitatively.

Personally , I think the use of the terms excess and deficiency somewhat

lend themselves to this quantitative reductionism. Of course we tend to

evaluate where going on with patients in the practice of Chinese

medicine with more qualitative analysis. So, and Let Ken correct me if

I'm completely off base, but should these terms also be considered

qualitatively . In this case I am referring specifically to the terms

supplement and drain, vacuity and repletion . If you think of these

terms more along lines of how they affect the qi, then we move to a

Chinese version of affecting the control mechanisms. So to add yang or

essence to the body, you begin to think of this in terms of how the yang

alters the function of the body rather than providing raw materials, per

se.

 

So when you supplement a vacuity, perhaps what you're actually doing is

supplementing the ability of the body to rectify the vacuity, rather

than replacing what is lacking directly with the medicinal substances.

I am certain I am not the first person to think of this . This is

merely the first time that I have been able to express it somewhat

succinctly. All this has thus led me to consider the issues of

longevity, aging and what it means to follow nature. To a certain

extent, merely following nature blindly leads to succumbing to our basic

animal instincts and urges would lead us to eat till we are completely

gorged during times of abundance, to reproducing endless children and to

generally practice activities that were designed for short-term

reproductive fitness of the species and not long-term survival of the

individual. But the very nature of civilization is such that we do many

different things to thwart this natural process. And I would argue that

many of these things that we do that probably have led to being such a

long lived species. By learning to discipline ourselves with regard to

things like diet and exercise and to work on harmonizing our emotional

and mental lives. The use of the tonic herbs in Chinese medicine is a

particularly telling example, as it is my understanding that the

knowledge of many of these herbs was acquired by daoist practitioners

who were exploring the issues of longevity and even immortality.

 

One of the things these practitioners supposedly discovered in their

quest was that extreme measures could be taken to increase the lifespans

even beyond all one acquire by the aforementioned regimen. These

extreme measures included the use of certain medicinal substances and

the practice of certain meditation techniques. It is well known that a

variety of hormones decline as one ages. These include growth hormone,

testosterone, Melatonin and, estrogen. This seems to be a natural

unavoidable part of the course of life. Some longevity researchers have

actually suggested that this mechanism is programmed into us. It may be

that kidney tonic herbs and other growth hormone releasing substances

exert their actions upon the body in a safe manner is because they

introduced a new piece of programming to the control mechanisms and for

lack of a better analogy, the software is compatible. So the programmed

mechanism of aging becomes thwarted by the use of these substances.

Certain meditation practices have also been shown to have been a factor

on the levels of various hormonal control mechanisms of the body. So

when you combine these two things together, you could conceivably have a

dramatic effect on health and longevity. It is often understood by

longevity researchers that what substances like the growth hormone

releasing factors basically do is slowing the process of aging, not end

it an altogether. This is reflected in experiments that have shown that

people who have done certain practices have measures of biological age

there often much younger than their chronological years.

 

--

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine

 

FAX:

[Guest guest]

Interesting stuff that you wrote there Todd. I also have an interest in HGH and

the aging factor. It started because I had so many body builders and martial

artists as patients who wanted an edge.The problem I had with them was that they

would take EVERY supplement and drug and my

treatment as well.I only a few who ONLY took my treatment and they seemed to

respond better and all the others thought they were taking some special drug

from the black market.

 

After some time I didn't go with the tonic concept though. One thing that

happens as we age is that our sleep patterns change ........we start snoring

.......and we get nocturia and get less REM sleep. If its programmed into us to

age , I thought its possible that the programming

may be by passed if treatment could improve rem sleep.I had a group of 10

patients who tried my treatment to see if it would influence HgH.

 

Most people noticed the following...........improved muscle tone more so in the

triceps

wierd dreams

in some cases

needing more sleep

improvement in

skin

less snoring

quicker fitness

recovery time if restarting exercise after a break

Dramatic

improvement in nocturia but only in the women

One of the guys

said he wanted to drive his faster

With the patients

concerned I was unable to ask about libido.

 

 

THEN , someone found out I was also doing a paper on MS and had sent out a

survey to the MS society this and and I got a letter from the Bio ethics

people saying I can't do research woithout approval and the medical centre I

was working from then wouldn't do the blood tests

either. Such is fate.

 

I moved to Christchurch , 5 hours away. Interestingly one of the 10 had

Huntington's and his wife assures me his twitches have lessened.

 

I still get calls from the friends of the group who want the stuff to stop them

pissing at night.

 

 

Did you know that HgH levels are at their highest between 7-8 am.Could this be

because the stomach , in some way influences the post natal jing?

 

Heiko

 

 

 

 

> Kind the beginning of some thoughts I have been having. Apologies in

> advance who don't approve of this type of speculation.

>

> I've been studying the effects of growth hormone recently. And the

> research that I've been doing has let me consider some relationships

> between kidney tonics and this hormone. I have specifically been

> looking into the role of certain amino acids which are used by people

> involved in the areas as diverse as body building or life extension in

> order to induce the release of growth hormone, either for the purpose

> of enlarging ones muscles or for the purpose of increasing a persons

> youthfulness . Large doses of amino acids are thought to induce the

> release of growth hormone probably by affecting control mechanisms,

> rather than providing building blocks for the hormone itself. This has

> led me to consider what it is that kidney tonics are actually doing when

> we ingest them. The reason kidney yang and essence tonics came to mind

> is because kidney tonics have been shown to have an effect of increasing

> the amount of circulating growth hormone in the body. And because

> research in China and indicates that kidney yang and essence tonics

> exert their activity in the body by also affecting control mechanisms.

> Though many of these herbs contain hormones like substances, the amount

> that is absorbed into the body even when taken in the form of very high

> dosage decoctions is on the order of 1000 times less than the amount of

> the endogenous hormone that the body produces itself.

>

> The substances (amino acids and kidney tonics) also have similar actions

> upon the body as does the administration of growth hormone itself.

> These include various changes associated with youth, such as increased

> strength, better muscle tone, higher metabolism, increased sex drive,

> etc. Growth hormone has become very popular therapy among the rich,

> especially in Europe. It is also have been ignored following here in

> the United States, as well. However it is extremely expensive, as a can

> cost up to $10,000 per month. It is the shown to have rather remarkable

> fax, but it also has the risk inherent in the use of any exogenous

> hormone for an extended period of time. Because of this, growth hormone

> releasing substances have become very popular in recent years. I

> postulate that perhaps kidney tonics are more akin to growth hormone

> releasing factors and other hormone releasing factors than they are to

> some things like vitamins (this should not be confused with things like

> TSH, a hormone itself. Releasing factors are substances derived from

> food or herbs. Interestingly, the mechanism I'm proposing is similar to

> the mechanism by which we understand the drug like Prozac works. In

> fact, as I understand the modern Chinese research on the subject, this

> is exactly how the mechanisms of these herbs is beginning to be

> understood. This seemed to have various effects on the function of the

> body, such as altering receptor activity or increasing the circulation

> of certain substances in the bloodstream by inhibiting their reuptake.

> They may also affect feedback mechanisms.

>

> So in order for these herbs to affect the hormonal system it again is

> not about providing building blocks for the body but actually affecting

> the control mechanisms instead. One of the interesting thoughts that

> comes up in connection with this idea is the whole way we tend to think

> of the terms of supplementing and draining as if it is purely

> quantitative. In other words, some thing is either added or removed

> from the body. Now this thing may be something tangible like yin or

> something less tangible like yang. But in either case it is definitely

> thought of as something (by me) that is conceptualized quantitatively.

> Personally , I think the use of the terms excess and deficiency somewhat

> lend themselves to this quantitative reductionism. Of course we tend to

> evaluate where going on with patients in the practice of Chinese

> medicine with more qualitative analysis. So, and Let Ken correct me if

> I'm completely off base, but should these terms also be considered

> qualitatively . In this case I am referring specifically to the terms

> supplement and drain, vacuity and repletion . If you think of these

> terms more along lines of how they affect the qi, then we move to a

> Chinese version of affecting the control mechanisms. So to add yang or

> essence to the body, you begin to think of this in terms of how the yang

> alters the function of the body rather than providing raw materials, per

> se.

>

> So when you supplement a vacuity, perhaps what you're actually doing is

> supplementing the ability of the body to rectify the vacuity, rather

> than replacing what is lacking directly with the medicinal substances.

> I am certain I am not the first person to think of this . This is

> merely the first time that I have been able to express it somewhat

> succinctly. All this has thus led me to consider the issues of

> longevity, aging and what it means to follow nature. To a certain

> extent, merely following nature blindly leads to succumbing to our basic

> animal instincts and urges would lead us to eat till we are completely

> gorged during times of abundance, to reproducing endless children and to

> generally practice activities that were designed for short-term

> reproductive fitness of the species and not long-term survival of the

> individual. But the very nature of civilization is such that we do many

> different things to thwart this natural process. And I would argue that

> many of these things that we do that probably have led to being such a

> long lived species. By learning to discipline ourselves with regard to

> things like diet and exercise and to work on harmonizing our emotional

> and mental lives. The use of the tonic herbs in Chinese medicine is a

> particularly telling example, as it is my understanding that the

> knowledge of many of these herbs was acquired by daoist practitioners

> who were exploring the issues of longevity and even immortality.

>

> One of the things these practitioners supposedly discovered in their

> quest was that extreme measures could be taken to increase the lifespans

> even beyond all one acquire by the aforementioned regimen. These

> extreme measures included the use of certain medicinal substances and

> the practice of certain meditation techniques. It is well known that a

> variety of hormones decline as one ages. These include growth hormone,

> testosterone, Melatonin and, estrogen. This seems to be a natural

> unavoidable part of the course of life. Some longevity researchers have

> actually suggested that this mechanism is programmed into us. It may be

> that kidney tonic herbs and other growth hormone releasing substances

> exert their actions upon the body in a safe manner is because they

> introduced a new piece of programming to the control mechanisms and for

> lack of a better analogy, the software is compatible. So the programmed

> mechanism of aging becomes thwarted by the use of these substances.

> Certain meditation practices have also been shown to have been a factor

> on the levels of various hormonal control mechanisms of the body. So

> when you combine these two things together, you could conceivably have a

> dramatic effect on health and longevity. It is often understood by

> longevity researchers that what substances like the growth hormone

> releasing factors basically do is slowing the process of aging, not end

> it an altogether. This is reflected in experiments that have shown that

> people who have done certain practices have measures of biological age

> there often much younger than their chronological years.

>

> --

>

> Director

> Chinese Herbal Medicine

>

> FAX:

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Todd the Needle,

 

I think you've needled the right point here.

My reading of the operant terms, namely

yin1 yang2 and qi4 supports your speculation

that what we do...or ought to be doing...

with traditional Chinese therapeutics is to

enhance the body's inherent abilities to

interact harmoniously with environmental

stimuli as well as the various compensatory

changes in which the body engages as a result

of such stimulation.

 

A good illustrative example, I suggest,

of why it is important to be critical of

the term equivalents that we accept, so that

the original meaning of terms such as vacuity

and repletion is retained.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

.. It is also have been ignored following here inthe United States, as well.

>>>Growth hormone are available as a spray and are not as expensive. However, the risk benefit ratio is unclear as of yet. I defiantly do no suggest people using it unless serum IGF1 is significantly low. Growth hormone can aggravate diabetes and glucose control and the affects on the prostate are still debatable. The Amino acids often do not increase IGF1 in people

Alon

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

The Amino acids often do not increase IGF1 in people

> Alon

 

Have you seen this study?

 

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson/growthc.html

 

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

The Amino acids often do not increase IGF1 in people

> Alon

 

According to what I have read there are number of reasons why this may

be so. GH is stimulated by amino acids in combination with exercise or

sleep. If they are taken at other times, there will be no increase in

GH. If the AA's are taken with food, they will not cross the blood

brain barrier. If l-arginine is taken with other AA's, it will not

work. If aminos are not taken at correct dosage, then they will not

work. the dosage for l-arginine is extremely high, thus not very cost

effective. but glutamine is much lower and research supports the use

of arginine pyroglutamate with lysine as well (l-arginine is not the

same as arginine pyroglutamate; they attach to different receptors).

 

As to whether these GH releasers should be taken without blood testing

showing GH deficiency, what this calls into question is what

constitutes a GH deficiency. If your GH is normal for your age, is

that a contraindiation. the whole point of life extension is that GH

declines with age under " normal " circumstances and perhaps restoring GH

to youthful levels is what is indicated. So this is still a debateable

point.

 

Of interest is that GH stimulates DHEA production, which leads to

increased testosterone and estrogen. But unlike taking exogenous

hormones of any kind,the use of GH releasers does not affect normal

feedback mechanisms. this means the body is never induced to produce

more GH or other hormones than is physiologically normal for a young

person. the use of exogenous hormones can lead to very high blood

levesl of hormone and disrupt the feedback mechanisms. I believe this

is why various cancers are associated with hormone use, including DHEA,

but not with releasers, which actually seem to inhibit cancer. So all

this begs the question of when to use such substances, including kidney

tonics. I believe GH seems to have essence supplementing effects, not

yin OR yang. On one hand it stimulates metabolism and energy, on the

other it promotes good sleep and calms agitation in physiologic doses.

So essence xu might indicate the use of these aminos and likewise the

use of essence tonics might be indicated to release GH.

 

So when does one use essence tonics. Now in medicine, we normally look

for signs and symptoms to indicate their usage. However,for longevity,

we might consider that by the time we have symptoms, the vacuity is

already pretty pronounced. Maybe a tender tongue or weak kidney pulse

are all that is necessary. Maybe being of a certain age without

pronounced kidney xu sx, but noticeable decline in youthful vigor is

enough. I think the key is to avoid taking tonics when there is

prominent repletion present. But otherwise, I think there are

circumstance short of severe symptomology that indicate their usage.

As long as one combine vigorous exercise and a diet that is cleanand

clear, I think the chances of causing adverse effects are not as bad as

might be made out. start with low doses of herbs or supplements and

monitor tongue and pulse carefully. No short term harm will be done if

you are mistaken. We have a professor here at PCOM who is very big on

making essence xu dx in people of all ages and he often prescribes

strong tonics with impressive results.

 

[Guest guest]

Yes and other studies. But on my own pt I have seen several failures so I stopped using. This includes PRO-hGH and MEDITROPIN

Alon

 

-

 

Wednesday, May 02, 2001 8:37 AM

Re: control mechanisms

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:The Amino acids often do not increase IGF1 in people> AlonHave you seen this study?http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson/growthc.htmlToddThe Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

As to whether these GH releasers should be taken without blood testing showing GH deficiency, what this calls into question is what constitutes a GH deficiency. If your GH is normal for your age, is that a contraindication. the whole point of life extension is that GH declines with age under "normal" circumstances and perhaps restoring GH to youthful levels is what is indicated. So this is still a debateable point.>>>>Again this conversation is in the ralm of theory and speculation. The studies are very poorly done and contradictory. GH does not seem to help people with normal levels for their age. My experience with releasers (taken correctly) and flowing blood levels were mostly disappointing. One thing is it seems that people are willing to take much more chances trying stuff if it is so called alternative even though the risks are not known. Much of the information comes from manufactures and interested parties.

Alon

 

-

 

Wednesday, May 02, 2001 10:39 AM

Re: control mechanisms

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:The Amino acids often do not increase IGF1 in people> AlonAccording to what I have read there are number of reasons why this may be so. GH is stimulated by amino acids in combination with exercise or sleep. If they are taken at other times, there will be no increase in GH. If the AA's are taken with food, they will not cross the blood brain barrier. If l-arginine is taken with other AA's, it will not work. If aminos are not taken at correct dosage, then they will not work. the dosage for l-arginine is extremely high, thus not very cost effective. but glutamine is much lower and research supports the use of arginine pyroglutamate with lysine as well (l-arginine is not the same as arginine pyroglutamate; they attach to different receptors).As to whether these GH releasers should be taken without blood testing showing GH deficiency, what this calls into question is what constitutes a GH deficiency. If your GH is normal for your age, is that a contraindiation. the whole point of life extension is that GH declines with age under "normal" circumstances and perhaps restoring GH to youthful levels is what is indicated. So this is still a debateable point.Of interest is that GH stimulates DHEA production, which leads to increased testosterone and estrogen. But unlike taking exogenous hormones of any kind,the use of GH releasers does not affect normal feedback mechanisms. this means the body is never induced to produce more GH or other hormones than is physiologically normal for a young person. the use of exogenous hormones can lead to very high blood levesl of hormone and disrupt the feedback mechanisms. I believe this is why various cancers are associated with hormone use, including DHEA, but not with releasers, which actually seem to inhibit cancer. So all this begs the question of when to use such substances, including kidney tonics. I believe GH seems to have essence supplementing effects, not yin OR yang. On one hand it stimulates metabolism and energy, on the other it promotes good sleep and calms agitation in physiologic doses. So essence xu might indicate the use of these aminos and likewise the use of essence tonics might be indicated to release GH. So when does one use essence tonics. Now in medicine, we normally look for signs and symptoms to indicate their usage. However,for longevity, we might consider that by the time we have symptoms, the vacuity is already pretty pronounced. Maybe a tender tongue or weak kidney pulse are all that is necessary. Maybe being of a certain age without pronounced kidney xu sx, but noticeable decline in youthful vigor is enough. I think the key is to avoid taking tonics when there is prominent repletion present. But otherwise, I think there are circumstance short of severe symptomology that indicate their usage. As long as one combine vigorous exercise and a diet that is cleanand clear, I think the chances of causing adverse effects are not as bad as might be made out. start with low doses of herbs or supplements and monitor tongue and pulse carefully. No short term harm will be done if you are mistaken. We have a professor here at PCOM who is very big on making essence xu dx in people of all ages and he often prescribes strong tonics with impressive results.Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

On Wednesday, May 2, 2001, at 02:01 AM,

 

> So when you supplement a vacuity, perhaps what you're actually doing is

> supplementing the ability of the body to rectify the vacuity, rather

> than replacing what is lacking directly with the medicinal substances.

 

I think since most herbal medicinals are 'crude' substances, involving

the qi transformation to synthesize them into ying/constructive qi, that

this is quite true. Polypharmacy plant prescriptions are not designed

to DIRECTLY relieve vacuities, but facilitate the body in correcting its

own vacuities (while providing raw materials to help it do so). I also

think acupuncture works similarly to this as well.

 

This is also why, per another post, why I don't think that liu wei di

huang wan is 'estrogenic' per say or a direct danger to breast cancer

patients, unless given in very large doses. And, of course, it has to

be indicated according to pattern diagnosis. Without true yin xu, this

prescription should not be used symptomatically to 'boost the immune

system' or 'treat the side-effects of chemotherapy' unless the symptom

pattern, tongue and pulse indicate that this is the correct prescription.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Heiko Lade <heiko@l...> wrote:

 

> Did you know that HgH levels are at their highest between 7-8

am.Could this be because the stomach , in some way influences the

post natal jing?

>

> Heiko

 

Hi Heiko,

 

Sorry for the late reply, I only just came on board. I've only just

started a degree course in Naturopathy / TCM so my reply is very

western medicine based.

 

GH release is normally triggered during the sleep phase called Short

Wave Sleep (SWS) and has been shown to be related to Melatonin

release and progressively inhibited by rising levels of Insulin.

 

The age related reduction in GH release is primarilly driven by the

slowly rising level of Insulin seen as we age. Rising Insulin

progressively increases the release of the hormone Somatostatin which

works on the pituitary as a negative feedback agent (aka GHIN, Growth

Hormone Inhibiting Hormone) to reduce GH release.

 

Here is a example of normal GH release during a 24 hour period:

 

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson/GH24hour2.jpg

 

More western medicine based GH information is available on my web

site below.

 

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson,

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson

gowatson

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

Hi Alon,

 

> Growth hormone are available as a spray and are not as expensive.

 

The bioavialibility is only around 3 % so this is a very expensive

and non effective way to boost GH.

 

> However, the risk benefit ratio is unclear as of yet. I defiantly

do no suggest people using it unless serum IGF1 is significantly low.

 

I totally agree. Diet, exercise & fasting are good ways to boost

natural GH release. Medical research has shown a 50 % reduction in

GH release for every increase in BMI of 1.5 due to body fat & Insulin

increase.

 

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson/bmigh.htm

 

> Growth hormone can aggravate diabetes and glucose control and the

affects on the prostate are still debatable. The Amino acids often do

not increase IGF1 in people

 

Injectable GH will increase Insulin resistance. Pituitary stimulated

GH release, which does not void the bodies control loops and avoids

Insulin / GH hormonal clashes does not. Also pituitary stimulated GH

release maintains the IGF-1 negative feedback loop, which stops IGF-1

getting too high and out of the normal control range.

 

Failure of amino GH boosters is normally due to most of the

commercial products being not much more than " Snake Oil " or high

level of Insulin.

 

Sorry if this is all western medicine based.

 

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson,

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson

gowatson

[Guest guest]

Thanks Greg

First I must say that I made a mistake in saying that HgH levels are

highest at 7-8 am.........its actually testosterone that is highest at

that time.

After reading your piece , I am wondering if longivety could be promoted

if herbs that decrease insulin levels be used to then stimulate and keep

HgH levels higher.

 

Still it comes down to individual imbalance and the appropriate needs

of the patients , I will have a look at your web page and get back to

you.

 

Heiko

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

> Yes and other studies. But on my own pt I have seen several

> failures so I stopped using. This includes PRO-hGH and MEDITROPIN

> Alon

 

Hi Alon,

 

I have researched PRO-hGH and can tell you it is junk. Over 75 %

carbs and the amount of the GH aminos are VERY small.

 

Looks like they threw in every amino known to stimulate GH release to

cover all the bases.

 

Do you know what your fasting Insulin is?

 

How about the surrogate Insulin ratio TG / HDL?

 

If they are in the " Normal " range, 3 g of APGL should work very well.

 

I'm 54 and have a IGF-1 of 325. A month off APGL dropped it to 230,

then a month back on APGL brought it back up again.

 

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson,

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson

gowatson

[Guest guest]

-

" Heiko Lade " <heiko

 

Thursday, May 31, 2001 9:36 PM

Re: Re: control mechanisms

 

 

> After reading your piece , I am wondering if longevity could be promoted

> if herbs that decrease insulin levels be used to then stimulate and keep

> HgH levels higher.

 

Hi Heiko,

 

You are spot on!

 

Insulin is more & more being indicated as one of the prime drivers of aging.

 

High levels of Insulin have been shown to cause:

 

1) Increased Insulin resistance, decreased Insulin sensitivity

2) High level of blood glucose

3) Deceased glucose tolerance

4) High level of AGE cross links

5) High levels of liver produced LDLs & Triglycerides

6) Reduced liver produced HDL

7) Imbalances in brain neurotransmitter hormones

8) Increased fat storage and decreased ability to use fat as energy

9) Decreased GH release

 

Ok, enough but I consider high Insulin & Glucose as being the prime drivers of

what we call aging and any one who is

serious about Anti-Aging needs to get their Insulin, Glucose, Glucose tolerance

& lipid profiles into the youthful range

before starting to do anything about boosting dropping hormonal levels.

 

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson,

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson

gowatson

[Guest guest]

I have researched PRO-hGH and can tell you it is junk. Over 75 % carbs and the amount of the GH aminos are VERY small.>>>Does not surprise me. There is so much junk out there. Good marketing and poor science make many billionaires.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Ok, enough but I consider high Insulin & Glucose as being the prime drivers of what we call aging and any one who isserious about Anti-Aging needs to get their Insulin, Glucose, Glucose tolerance & lipid profiles into the youthful range>>>>>I see you are into syndrome X

Alon

[Guest guest]

Insulin, Glucose, Glucose tolerance & lipid profiles

>>>>>I see you are into syndrome X

Alon

 

Alon,

What do

you see as TCM correlates to syndrome X as I believe was defined by the IFM

group?

Stephen

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

, " Stephen Morrissey " <stephen@b...>

wrote:

 

> Alon,

> What do you see as TCM correlates to syndrome X as I believe was defined by

> the IFM group?

> Stephen

>

 

 

seems like a discussion and research into the blood sugar regulating

properties of chinese herbs is in order. more later. BTW, greg, we

love the biomedical info. keep it coming. It will feedback into TCM

as we digest it.

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

What do you see as TCM correlates to syndrome X as I believe was defined by the IFM group?

>>>>I would have to think about for a while.

Since over-weight and over consumption of simple sugars are thought to be the underlying issue, as well as under activity. One has to think of Spleen function. Also since these patients often have increased lipids and slippery pulses at their middle depth one as to think of heat and phlegm. Clinically one often blood stasis, liver heat etc.

In myexperience short of diet control and exercise other interversion including herbs are of secondary importance and rarely sufficient to control the lipids and insulin resistance in these patients

Alon

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

>

> Since over-weight and over consumption of simple sugars are thought to be the

underlying issue, as well as under activity. One has to think of Spleen

function. Also since these patients often have increased lipids and slippery

pulses at their middle depth one as to think of heat and phlegm. Clinically one

often blood stasis, liver heat etc.

>

> In myexperience short of diet control and exercise other interversion

including herbs are of secondary importance and rarely sufficient to control the

lipids and insulin resistance in these patients

>

> Alon

 

I agree with Alon's pattern analysis and assessment when it comes to

obese type 2 diabetics, but if lower level insulin abnormalities are

involved in aging for all people, then herbs may be useful in addition

to diet and exercise for longevity in these cases. It is certainly

interesting how many important tonics affect blood sugar (shu di, huang

qi, ren shen, zhi mu, mai dong, xuan shen)

 

[Guest guest]

 

Don't forget the likely effects of Xi Yang Shen on blood sugar

levels as evidenced by recent studues. See links below:

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=10977009 & dopt=Abstract

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=11273850 & dopt=Abstract

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=11273850 & dopt=Abstract

 

 

In , @i... wrote:

> , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Since over-weight and over consumption of simple sugars are

thought to be the underlying issue, as well as under activity. One

has to think of Spleen function. Also since these patients often have

increased lipids and slippery pulses at their middle depth one as to

think of heat and phlegm. Clinically one often blood stasis, liver

heat etc.

> >

> > In myexperience short of diet control and exercise other

interversion including herbs are of secondary importance and rarely

sufficient to control the lipids and insulin resistance in these

patients

> >

> > Alon

>

> I agree with Alon's pattern analysis and assessment when it comes

to

> obese type 2 diabetics, but if lower level insulin abnormalities

are

> involved in aging for all people, then herbs may be useful in

addition

> to diet and exercise for longevity in these cases. It is certainly

> interesting how many important tonics affect blood sugar (shu di,

huang

> qi, ren shen, zhi mu, mai dong, xuan shen)

>

 

[Guest guest]

Species of Dioscorea also come to mind:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=2392490 & dopt=Abstract

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=3713229 & dopt=Abstract

 

 

 

 

- In , @i... wrote:

> , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Since over-weight and over consumption of simple sugars are

thought to be the underlying issue, as well as under activity. One

has to think of Spleen function. Also since these patients often have

increased lipids and slippery pulses at their middle depth one as to

think of heat and phlegm. Clinically one often blood stasis, liver

heat etc.

> >

> > In myexperience short of diet control and exercise other

interversion including herbs are of secondary importance and rarely

sufficient to control the lipids and insulin resistance in these

patients

> >

> > Alon

>

> I agree with Alon's pattern analysis and assessment when it comes

to

> obese type 2 diabetics, but if lower level insulin abnormalities

are

> involved in aging for all people, then herbs may be useful in

addition

> to diet and exercise for longevity in these cases. It is certainly

> interesting how many important tonics affect blood sugar (shu di,

huang

> qi, ren shen, zhi mu, mai dong, xuan shen)

>

 

[Guest guest]

, wsheir@a... wrote:

>

> Don't forget the likely effects of Xi Yang Shen on blood sugar

> levels as evidenced by recent studues. See links below:

>

 

 

thanks warren. my list was partial, for sure. I was thinking that

since these herbs all lower blood sugar by methods OTHER than raising

insulin, they lead to the desired outcome suggested by Greg.

 

[Guest guest]

, gowatson@a... wrote:

> , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

>

> I'm 54 and have a IGF-1 of 325. A month off APGL dropped it to 230,

> then a month back on APGL brought it back up again.

>

 

 

what sources or products do you use for APGL.

 

[Guest guest]

, gowatson@a... wrote:

 

>

> GH release is normally triggered during the sleep phase called Short

> Wave Sleep (SWS) and has been shown to be related to Melatonin

> release and progressively inhibited by rising levels of Insulin.

 

 

It is interesting to note that the common syndromeof hypoglycemia may

involve increased insulin, while many type 2 diabetics actually also

have increased insulin, but high tissue resistance as well. It is

incorrectly assumed that diabetes usually involves low insulin,

especially in early to mid stage type 2. However, those diabetics with

truly low insulin certainly do not seem to be in better health.

Paradox or is some middle ground actually ideal?

 

todd