Guest guest Posted February 29, 2000 Report Posted February 29, 2000 > Message: 9 > Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:17:19 -0800 > Pamela Zilavy <yinyang > bioavailability of raw, ground herb > > [This message is not in displayable format] Out of curiosity, what causes messages to not be displayable? This thread of discussion is particularly interesting to me (I am currently a student). I am disappointed in not being able to read this message and others like it. Attachements are never displayed either. Just wondering if this is a problem with my computer or if it's a function of the listserve. -JCS -- hey-jude Quote
Guest guest Posted February 29, 2000 Report Posted February 29, 2000 > " Toni Narins " <tnarins > >Z'ev, > >You mention Ancient Chinese Medical Literature, translated by Donald Harper. >Where does one get this book? > >Toni Redwing Book Co. has it in the new catalogue Z'ev Quote
Guest guest Posted February 29, 2000 Report Posted February 29, 2000 Z'ev, You mention Ancient Chinese Medical Literature, translated by Donald Harper. Where does one get this book? Toni < > < > Tuesday, February 29, 2000 12:59 AM Digest Number 126 >------ >@Backup-The Easiest Way to Protect and Access your files. >Automatic backups and off-site storage of your critical data. Install >your FREE trial today and have a chance to WIN a digital camera! > >http://click./1/1830/4/_/542111/_/951814755/ >------ >Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help >------ > >There are 9 messages in this issue. > >Topics in today's digest: > > 1. Re: Digest Number 125 > " Jonathan Alexander Daniel " <jalexd > 2. huo ma ren > > 3. Re: Digest Number 125 > " " <zrosenberg > 4. Re: -about translation- > " Galerie Z.T. " <jetnik > 5. old new diagnosis question > Ed Kasper <edkasper > 6. Re: Re: -about translation- > " " <zrosenberg > 7. Re: huo ma ren > Karen S Vaughan <creationsgarden > 8. Re: JCM > acuman1 > 9. bioavailability of raw, ground herb > Pamela Zilavy <yinyang > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 1 > Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:04:47 -0500 > " Jonathan Alexander Daniel " <jalexd >Re: Digest Number 125 > >> I wrote this article in 1993.If that can help you.. >> I 'd love to hear your feedback on it. >> >> Philippe Riviere > >I agree with you and with Z'ev. This was a great article. Back in 1991 >when I was at ACTCM I was involved in a translation project there and what >you said in the article is exactly what I said to my teacher then: In order >to do an adequate translation of a Chinese medicine text into English, one >must know well Chinese language, the English language, Chinese culture and >history and Western culture and history. It is well-known that poetry is >nearly impossible to translate, as is philosophy. Language has two aspects, >the denotative and the connotative. The denotative is easy to translate, >but poetry and philosophy rely heavily on the connotative aspect of >language, and this is very difficult to translate since the associations >that one makes in one language are usually not shared with those of the >other language, because of different cultural and historical contexts. >Chinese medical texts are similar to poetry and philosophy in this sense, >especially the older texts. Chinese medicine has its roots in Daoism, the >entire Chinese cultural civilization has strong roots in the Yi Jing. In >order to understand the metaphors being used by ancient medical authors, it >is necessary to adequately comprehend the Yi Jing (and not merely as a >fortune-telling device) as well as Daoism. The more ancient medical writers >were not only doctors but also scholars. In fact many of them were >primarily scholars. Sometimes when they wrote they would quote the classics >of Chinese civilization. These quotations would be immediately recognized >as such by fellow scholar-doctors who were also well-versed in the classics; >and the context would be immediately understandable to them. But without >this cultural background we are often at best lost when we encounter some of >their statements and at worst we misunderstand and apply our own connotative >understanding which comes out of our own historical context. This is why >commentary is so necessary, commentary by someone familiar with the four >things I cited above. In addition, it is quite obvious that the classical >authors often used word associations based upon puns. When one reads a >translation without any knowledge of the original Chinese text one has no >chance to even consider this word play. An example would be the name of >Large Intestine 4, which is He Gu, which can mean, " union valley " but can >also mean " grain gathering " and then as a pun it is called " Hu Kou " which >means the " Tiger's Mouth, " all of these names bring up associations related >to the functioning of the point. But if one merely reads in English, " grain >gathering, " " union valley " and " tiger's mouth " one has no concept of why all >three names are given to this point let alone why the point is given this >name. Two good books that I have found which deal with the difficulties of >understanding ancient thought and culture include: > >Avatara: The Humanization of Philosophy Through the Bhagavad Gita by Antonio >T. de Nicolas; 1976 Nicolas Hays Ltd. ISBN 0-89254-001-X > >Quotation from the book jacket: > > " Professor de Nicolas presents the reader with actualized possibilities of >knowing other cultures as they knew themselves. In his work, philosophy >becomes an ongoing synthesis of knowledge and sensation. This new >translation of The Bhagavad Gita with its easy and beautiful reading, is a >major philosophical attempt to read a most important text of a culture in >its own context. " > >Hamlet's Mill: An Essay Investigating the Origins of Human Knowledge and Its >Transmission Through Myth by Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend; >1977 David R. Godine, Publisher, Inc. ISBN 0-87923--215-3 > >Quotation from the book jacket: > " Ever since the Greeks coined the language we commonly use for scientific >description, mythology and science have developed separately. But what came >before the Greeks? What if we could prove that all myths have one common >origin in a celestial cosmology? What if the gods, the places they lived, >and what they did are but ciphers for celestial activity, a language for the >perpetuation of complex astronomical data? " > >Modern science has attempted to rid itself of as much connotative language >as possible and to describe things as denotatively as possible in an effort >to present knowledge unambiguously and which can be understood in all >cultures at all times. I think that this attempt is somewhat of a failure. >Perhaps in 2000 years our modern scientific texts will appear as baffling to >people as 2000 year-old texts appear to us now. And perhaps 2000 years ago >the authors were also writing in a way that they thought would be >universally understood, not realizing the full extent of the significance of >the shifting sands of language and culture. > >I am glad that we have reached the point in learning Chinese medicine that >we are recognizing our inadequacies here. > >Later, >Jonathan Daniel, DC, LAc. > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 2 > Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:27:50 -0800 (PST) > >huo ma ren > >It is my understanding that sterilized huo ma ren is legal for use in >the US. Numerous companies import this seed legally. However, it has >been heat treated to prevent sprouting. Since the active components are >heat sensitive essential fatty acids, I would suggest that most seeds >are rancidified by this process, making them not only useess, but >perhaps dangerous. Rancid EFA's cause cancer at very high rates due to >massive free radical induction. > >As Kevin Oneil mentioned in an earlier post, it is also unlikely that >powdered water extracts contain much EFA either,as these are fat >soluble. Huo ma ren was typically used as pill or porridge because of >this. I think pure hempseed oil, which is usually cold extracted and >stored in the refrigerator is a good substitute for both dry >constipation, yin xu, lung dryness and some scaling skin diseases, all >of which have been treated by huo ma ren in ancient times. > >Also, someone mentioned fumigation, though I am unclear about what >exactly was being referred to. There is a misconception that chinese >herbs are fumigated at some point in their journey west. Actually, they >are not fumigated at US customs; I checked. And as far as I can tell, >they are not fumigated by the Chinese unless they are actually infested, >but certainly not as a matter of course. This is a common misconception >and can be verified by both Andy Ellis at springwind.com herbs and >Subhuti Dharmananda at itmonline.org. If anyone has actual evidence >(not anecdote) to the contrary, please provide. > > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 3 > Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:46:32 -0800 > " " <zrosenberg >Re: Digest Number 125 > >Jonathan hit it on the head. He and I are both students of the Jewish >mystical literature, and without a continual lineage to pass on the >teaching, teachers to explain it, commentaries to elucidate it, and a >working knowledge of Hebrew, the knowledge cannot be explained adequately. >Modern interpretations of Kabbalistic teaching often end up being just >that, unable to go farther than the person interpreting it. A similar >situation with the Chinese medical literature. . ..we need the tradition, >commentaries, teachers and language, adequately translated. The >macrobiotic movement floundered, because, having separated itself from >historical oriental medical literature and traditions, it could only base >itself on the modern teachers, and not go any further. With Chinese >medicine, we have to be sure to pass on the importance of proper knowledge >of Chinese medical terminology, so that we are not overly dependant on a >teacher's personal interpretations. This is a slow process, and will take >much time. Sometimes, wisdom is knowing what you don't know. > > >>> >>> Philippe Riviere >> >>I agree with you and with Z'ev. This was a great article. Back in 1991 >>when I was at ACTCM I was involved in a translation project there and what >>you said in the article is exactly what I said to my teacher then: In order >>to do an adequate translation of a Chinese medicine text into English, one >>must know well Chinese language, the English language, Chinese culture and >>history and Western culture and history. It is well-known that poetry is >>nearly impossible to translate, as is philosophy. Language has two aspects, >>the denotative and the connotative. The denotative is easy to translate, >>but poetry and philosophy rely heavily on the connotative aspect of >>language, and this is very difficult to translate since the associations >>that one makes in one language are usually not shared with those of the >>other language, because of different cultural and historical contexts. >>Chinese medical texts are similar to poetry and philosophy in this sense, >>especially the older texts. Chinese medicine has its roots in Daoism, the >>entire Chinese cultural civilization has strong roots in the Yi Jing. In >>order to understand the metaphors being used by ancient medical authors, it >>is necessary to adequately comprehend the Yi Jing (and not merely as a >>fortune-telling device) as well as Daoism. The more ancient medical writers >>were not only doctors but also scholars. In fact many of them were >>primarily scholars. Sometimes when they wrote they would quote the classics >>of Chinese civilization. These quotations would be immediately recognized >>as such by fellow scholar-doctors who were also well-versed in the classics; >>and the context would be immediately understandable to them. But without >>this cultural background we are often at best lost when we encounter some of >>their statements and at worst we misunderstand and apply our own connotative >>understanding which comes out of our own historical context. This is why >>commentary is so necessary, commentary by someone familiar with the four >>things I cited above. In addition, it is quite obvious that the classical >>authors often used word associations based upon puns. When one reads a >>translation without any knowledge of the original Chinese text one has no >>chance to even consider this word play. An example would be the name of >>Large Intestine 4, which is He Gu, which can mean, " union valley " but can >>also mean " grain gathering " and then as a pun it is called " Hu Kou " which >>means the " Tiger's Mouth, " all of these names bring up associations related >>to the functioning of the point. But if one merely reads in English, " grain >>gathering, " " union valley " and " tiger's mouth " one has no concept of why all >>three names are given to this point let alone why the point is given this >>name. Two good books that I have found which deal with the difficulties of >>understanding ancient thought and culture include: > > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 4 > Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:02:56 +0100 > " Galerie Z.T. " <jetnik >Re: -about translation- > >response to: > > Re: introduction & herbquestion >> >> I wrote this article in 1993.If that can help you.. >> I 'd love to hear your feedback on it. >> >> Philippe Riviere >> >Dear Philippe, > >thanks a lot for posting your article. It's a big support for me to know >that there are people who understand the particular problems involved in >translating classical chinese texts. It's not for nothing that in my >introduction I wrote that I'm 'preparing' myself to do translation work and >'trying' to read. In college I participated in study-groups preparing >translations from -parts of- the Zhuangzi, Liezi, Daodejing including the >most important commentaries and comparing translations in French, German and >English. I'm sure it'll be no surprise to you that very often we were >spending a day or so discussing the translation of just one or two lines, >sometimes after >fierce discussion not even able to agree upon the exact punctuation. > >Back to your article, in which you express the need to have annotated >translations of the Chinese commentaries dealing with the basic classical >works on TCM. I'm the first to agree to this, but have to stress that we are >talking about huge and time-consuming projects here. Last week I was >doing a little bit of research for my Materia Medica-teacher, who has an >interest in the psychological effects of herbs. He mentioned the Huangting >Jing /'Classic of the Yellow Court' (a Daoist text in verse, describing the >'inner landscape' and its psycho-physiological practice, originally meant to >be recited by 'adepts') and I marvelled at the very different >interpretations of several Chinese commentaries about just the question: >what is meant by this 'Yellow Court'?. Interpretations vary from (a.o.) >'Three Places in the Head', 'The Spleen', 'Mingmen' and 'Dantian'-the >Cinnaber Field. >Now of course this can be due to the existence of different schools of >thought, but it >really would take a lot of study to get that clear. One annotation would, >during research, be upgraded to a seperate chapter! I sometimes seriously >wonder what would be the value for TCM-students to be informed about that. >This kind of annotations would fall under what you mention in point 3: > >> The sinologist will tackle a TCM text as: >.... >> 3. A text to be translated in order to be understood by the reader! >> but,too often, the text is confined inside the narrow field of literal >> translation without taking into account the clinical utility of the >> information and its reality in front of illness; >> and as a result the translation becomes sterile and at best an object of >> university curiosity. > >By the way: I've seen that Michael Saso published a translation of the >Huangting Jing and wonder how he has solved this kind of problems (some of >you maybe know it?). If in translation one would simply leave it with 'the >Yellow Court', what is to be learned from that? The rich metaphors and >images in these ancient texts have to be explained somehow. > >The ideal seems to be to produce translations which are not sterile and >don't make the reader lose track in a wood of annotations and commentaries. >So indeed such translations can't be done by mere sinologists. My personal >attitude towards this is: if you want to do translations, study the medicine >first (and while studying the medicine, being able to read chinese is of >course valuable). >Your suggestion at the end of your article of working in a team consisting >of 'competent and honest practitioners' and 'open minded sinologists' >expresses exactly what I think would be an ideal situation. > >best regards, > >Nicolaas Herman Oving >jetnik > > > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 5 > Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:24:39 +0000 > Ed Kasper <edkasper >old new diagnosis question > >Wil and others Thank you for your responses. I am re-posting hoping to offer >greater clarity. > >ABDOMEN DISTENTION >My Dx: Spleen Yang Xu > >female age 54 >very active not sedentary >menopausal 1 1/2 years ago. >still hot flashes occasionally >little overweight, >tongue mostly swollen tooth marked + white. >pulse deep and but strong regular >suffers long term constipation, few times a week. >Bloated past 6 months >Hard feeling epigastic region just after eating >More of discomfort not sharp pain. >gas and belching > >Treated previously with acupuncture >bilateral Ki 16 >bilateral St 27 >bilateral St 37 >Ren 10, 12, 6 > >Also herbal decoction variation of D Cheng Qi Tang >Reported feeling better, released more gas > >Was also seeing a M.D. who prescribed drugs and laxatives. >Which she was taking. > >Stopped treatment as she felt better >Symptoms re-appeared and the doctor just diagnosed as > " Colon Inertia: a condition where the colon does not properly contract " > >Questions: > would Da Cheng Rx / Da Huang and Fu Zi, be suitable or too harsh. > Would Tonifying Rx be too cloying Ginseng & Longan Formula, Ginseng & > Astragalus Formula, Xiang Sha Liu Jun Zi Tang and Run Chang > > I am also considering Triphala, > > Thank you for your consideration. >To Your Health, >Ed Kasper LAc. >http://HappyHerbalist.com > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 6 > Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:13:29 -0800 > " " <zrosenberg >Re: Re: -about translation- > >There are some excellant examples of balanced translation with good >commentary out there. One is the Shang Han Lun, translated by >Mitchell/Feng, the other Ancient Chinese Medical Literature (the MaWang Dui >manuscripts) translated by Donald Harper. > > >>> >>Dear Philippe, >> >>thanks a lot for posting your article. It's a big support for me to know >>that there are people who understand the particular problems involved in >>translating classical chinese texts. It's not for nothing that in my >>introduction I wrote that I'm 'preparing' myself to do translation work and >>'trying' to read. In college I participated in study-groups preparing >>translations from -parts of- the Zhuangzi, Liezi, Daodejing including the >>most important commentaries and comparing translations in French, German and >>English. I'm sure it'll be no surprise to you that very often we were >>spending a day or so discussing the translation of just one or two lines, >>sometimes after >>fierce discussion not even able to agree upon the exact punctuation. >> >>Back to your article, in which you express the need to have annotated >>translations of the Chinese commentaries dealing with the basic classical >>works on TCM. I'm the first to agree to this, but have to stress that we are >>talking about huge and time-consuming projects here. Last week I was >>doing a little bit of research for my Materia Medica-teacher, who has an >>interest in the psychological effects of herbs. He mentioned the Huangting >>Jing /'Classic of the Yellow Court' (a Daoist text in verse, describing the >>'inner landscape' and its psycho-physiological practice, originally meant to >>be recited by 'adepts') and I marvelled at the very different >>interpretations of several Chinese commentaries about just the question: >>what is meant by this 'Yellow Court'?. Interpretations vary from (a.o.) >>'Three Places in the Head', 'The Spleen', 'Mingmen' and 'Dantian'-the >>Cinnaber Field. >>Now of course this can be due to the existence of different schools of >>thought, but it >>really would take a lot of study to get that clear. One annotation would, >>during research, be upgraded to a seperate chapter! I sometimes seriously >>wonder what would be the value for TCM-students to be informed about that. >>This kind of annotations would fall under what you mention in point 3: >> >>> The sinologist will tackle a TCM text as: >>.... >>> 3. A text to be translated in order to be understood by the reader! >>> but,too often, the text is confined inside the narrow field of literal >>> translation without taking into account the clinical utility of the >>> information and its reality in front of illness; >>> and as a result the translation becomes sterile and at best an object of >>> university curiosity. >> >>By the way: I've seen that Michael Saso published a translation of the >>Huangting Jing and wonder how he has solved this kind of problems (some of >>you maybe know it?). If in translation one would simply leave it with 'the >>Yellow Court', what is to be learned from that? The rich metaphors and >>images in these ancient texts have to be explained somehow. >> >>The ideal seems to be to produce translations which are not sterile and >>don't make the reader lose track in a wood of annotations and commentaries. >>So indeed such translations can't be done by mere sinologists. My personal >>attitude towards this is: if you want to do translations, study the medicine >>first (and while studying the medicine, being able to read chinese is of >>course valuable). >>Your suggestion at the end of your article of working in a team consisting >>of 'competent and honest practitioners' and 'open minded sinologists' >>expresses exactly what I think would be an ideal situation. >> >>best regards, >> >>Nicolaas Herman Oving >>jetnik >> > > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 7 > Mon, 28 Feb 2000 07:24:17 -0500 > Karen S Vaughan <creationsgarden >Re: huo ma ren > >I've wondered myself about the rancidity of huo ma ren, as well as its >effect upon patients who are subject to increasingly sensitive drug >tests. A number of hemp butter sites on the web make points about having >no detectable THC contamination in their products, which leads me to >question whether seeds from our sources would be problematic. (I know >people who will avoid poppyseed bagels because they have to take random >drug tests and the trace amounts of opiates in legal culinary seeds >register as evidence of drug use.) While it may be insufficient to get >clients high, it may still register. > >Flaxseed, ya ma ren, goes rancid within literally minutes of grinding, >which is why I counsel clients to grind it immediately before eating. I >suspect that huo ma ren would work better in that manner, especially if >given in congees. I share Todd's scepticism that essential fatty acids >would survive decoction, especially powdered in a bag prepared for the >week ahead. Udo Erasmo does indicate that hemp seeds, oil or hemp butter >are more stable than flaxseed and flax seed oil (but are less stable than >peanut butter.) Michael Tierra recommends huo ma ren electuaries or >halvas, which should be freshly made and refrigerated. > >Erasmo says that hemp seeds sold in the US are steamed. Steaming may >cause the seeds to split, permitting oxidation of the oil (although >visual inspection of my huo ma ren shows little evidence of splitting.) >The cold pressed oil has a peroxide value (PV) of 0.1- 0.5, versus 6-7 >for oil made of steamed seeds. (Peroxide oil is a measure of rancidity). > He says that the PV of hemp is safe and does not ruin its taste, unlike >flax oil which tastes bad with a PV of 2-3. For contrast the PV of >virgin olive oil is around 20 and the PV of unrefined corn oil may be >40-60. So for yin and fluids deficiency it looks like either >refrigerated fresh hemp oil or freshly ground huo ma ren would be most >nutritive. > >About 65% of the total protein in hemp seed is edestin, a sturdy, stable >protein, similar to that found in the albumen in egg whites and blood. >Edestin is however destroyed by heat so is not present except in the >Canadian products. > >As for fumigation, I got the same negative response as Todd in >questioning US Customs a year or two ago. However fumigation in the >country or origin is sometimes a problem. Erasmo points out that the >usual fumigants for hemp seed are highly volatile and rarely leave >detectable residues, which squares with Subhuti Dharmananda's >information. Canadian hempseed, which is mechanically hulled instead of >steamed, and Canadian hemp oils may avoid fumigation entirely but >roughage would be lost reducing the laxative effect. > >Karen Vaughan >CreationsGarden >*************************************** >Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. > " To give pleasure to a single heart, by a single act, is better than a >thousand heads bowing in prayer. " M. Ghandi > >______________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 8 > Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:35:04 EST > acuman1 >Re: JCM > > >In a message dated 2/27/00 3:52:11 PM, zrosenberg writes: > >>I'll look forward to seeing it. JCM is about the least imaginative journal >>I've seen. . . .maybe they can change the format a LITTLE bit? > > >I'm sure it is tough. One guy does practically the whole thing. At least he >did 3 years ago. Altho I suspect that a change of format is due and hiring a >graphic artist (a plethora of them in GB) wodl not be too expensive. >David Molony > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 9 > Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:17:19 -0800 > Pamela Zilavy <yinyang >bioavailability of raw, ground herb > > > >[This message is not in displayable format] > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > > > > Quote
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